OT? Why college is so expensive in America. (Bonus: Duke vs NU prestige ranking poll)

[CatManTrue]

Alright, there was a healthy debate on the Rock. Some premium posters stated that Duke is more prestigious than Northwestern.

I could not disagree more strongly with that statement, so after thinking about it I thought it would be a cool free board poll.

Let’s see what the good people say! Here’s the question and a very informative video if you don’t believe me.

Which university is more prestigious: Duke or Northwestern?

 

[Eurocat]

Should be a third option, "They have pretty much the same level of prestige more or less and it depends on the major".

 

[SadCat]

Should be a third option, "They have pretty much the same level of prestige more or less and it depends on the major".

It also depends upon where you reside. In the southeast, it is Duke without question.

 

[hoosboot]

It also depends upon where you reside. In the southeast, it is Duke without question.

On the west coast, it appears to be pretty solidly Northwestern.

 

[stpaulcat]

On the east coast, it is, Northwestern who?

 

[phatcat]

I was hoping to have a spirited debate on college costs.

 

[stpaulcat]

I was hoping to have a spirited debate on college costs.

University administrators realized they have a good thing going.

 

[CatManTrue]

Should be a third option, "They have pretty much the same level of prestige more or less and it depends on the major".

That’s a good one. But this is a three choice question. Thank you for sharing that.

 

[CatManTrue]

It also depends upon where you reside. In the southeast, it is Duke without question.

That’s a fair point. Most “southeasterners” prefer more Southern schools.

But most of America’s population doesn’t live in the ‘southeast’. They’re closer to Northwestern for a reason if you look at population centers as a… type… of gravity, if both think about it and you like physics like I do. And they still are.

 

[CatManTrue]

I was hoping to have a spirited debate on college costs.

Oh, we can. But that may go off script.

Let’s stick to the script. I know my man @corbi296 would probably agree with me on this even though he’s got me on @IGNORE2 (just like Bob?).

If you’re a college basketball fan, Duke is probably viewed as more prestigious (Coach K!).

If you’re not - and most Americans aren’t - why wouldn’t it be our alma mater?

Watch this if you don’t agree:

 

[phatcat]

Oh, we can. But that may go off script.

Let’s stick to the script. I know my man @corbi296 would probably agree with me on this even though he’s got me on @IGNORE2 (just like Bob?).

If you’re a college basketball fan, Duke is probably viewed as more prestigious (Coach K!).

If you’re not - and most Americans aren’t - why wouldn’t it be our alma mater?

Watch this if you don’t agree:

View embedded media

I mean because the title of the thread is: OT? Why college is so expensive in America

 

[Hungry Jack]

College is so expensive because it is heavily subsidized by US taxpayers through federal student loans. When you subsidize something, like electric cars and solar power, you get more of it.

Students have been fed a mantra that any college degree dramatically increases earning power. Unfortunately this is not true for many fields. But student loans can help mask the very high cost of a college degree from a private school.

Higher ed in general has been raising prices at a rate greater than inflation for the better part of 25 years. Much of the extra revenue has gone into administrative or non-teaching positions, as well as capital investment.

Biden's student loan forgiveness plan does nothing to address the fundamental issue presented here.

 

[RhabdoWildcat]

College is so expensive because it is heavily subsidized by US taxpayers through federal student loans. When you subsidize something, like electric cars and solar power, you get more of it.

Students have fed a mantra that any college degree dramatically increases earning power. Unfortunately this is not true for many fields. But student loans can help mask the very high cost of a college degree from a private school.

Higher ed in general has been raising prices at a rate greater than inflation for the better part of 25 years. Much of the extra revenue has gone into administrative or non-teaching positions, as well as capital investment.

Biden's student loan forgiveness plan does nothing to address the fundamental issue presented here.

Nothing will change. Too much money at stake, too many invested people and representatives too easily paid off.

Just like healthcare. A fundamental change would cause immense pain and suffering for a big group of people with money thus it will never change.

 

[pawildcat]

I can only speak for Pa., but we have high public university tuitions largely because our support for public higher education per capita is about on a par with Mississippi. Ryan's recent $400 million gift to Northwestern is not terribly far below Pennsylvania's total funding for its 14-school state university system this year.

 

[CatManTrue]

College is so expensive because it is heavily subsidized by US taxpayers through federal student loans. When you subsidize something, like electric cars and solar power, you get more of it.

Students have fed a mantra that any college degree dramatically increases earning power. Unfortunately this is not true for many fields. But student loans can help mask the very high cost of a college degree from a private school.

Higher ed in general has been raising prices at a rate greater than inflation for the better part of 25 years. Much of the extra revenue has gone into administrative or non-teaching positions, as well as capital investment.

Biden's student loan forgiveness plan does nothing to address the fundamental issue presented here.

Spot on! @Hungry Jack gets it. Couldn’t agree more.

Here’s a video that I think we all can agree is incredible. I stumbled across it on YouTube last month and it staggered me. It’s not often that YouTube videos make me tear up but this one did. And, while we all have our own unique journeys to and fro wherever we go - this one reminded me exactly of why I loved college life in Evanston.

@CoralSpringsCat, @GOUNUII & @No Chores: I’m not as sharp as I used to be. Could you give this a watch too when you get a minute?

My next question: how often is the term “student athlete” mentioned in this video? I counted only once… but maybe I should invite some Duke fans to our free board to find out.

 

[CatManTrue]

I can only speak for Pa., but we have high public university tuitions largely because our support for public higher education per capita is about on a par with Mississippi. Ryan's recent $400 million gift to Northwestern is not terribly far below Pennsylvania's total funding for its 14-school state university system this year.

Yea. And that is some shameful sh*t as the kids say.

@Rebel II - you know what else is shameful? We’re only winning this ‘free board poll’ by 1 vote as the home team.

On our own free board.

…man, we’re screwed in the NIL order.

 

[GOUNUII]

Spot on! @Hungry Jack gets it. Couldn’t agree more.

Here’s a video that I think we all can agree is incredible. I stumbled across it on YouTube last month and it staggered me. It’s not often that YouTube videos make me tear up but this one did. And, while we all have our own unique journeys to and fro wherever we go - this one reminded me exactly of why I loved college life in Evanston.

@CoralSpringsCat, @GOUNUII & @No Chores: I’m not as sharp as I used to be. Could you give this a watch too when you get a minute?

My next question: how often is the term “student athlete” mentioned in this video? I counted only once… but maybe I should invite some Duke fans to our free board to find out.

View embedded media

Great stuff CMT. Thanks for sharing.

You thought of your college years when you saw this. Which BTW was incredibly well written and produced. I thought of how much the content mirrored what I instilled in my 4 children. All of which was heavily influenced by my NU experience.

Witnessing my own discover their path through all the highs and lows of the process has been the most inspiring part of my 65 years.

Thanks again.

GOUNUII

 

[Hungry Jack]

View embedded media

This is quite a powerful branding message. I like it a lot. Colleges and universities have far too long been academically siloed, forcing their rigid discipline-focused degree program structure on the outside world. I worked for a large local private institution about 15 years ago in a turn-around situation, and trying to get faculty to collaborate to create cross-disciplinary degree programs was worse than pulling teeth. This represented an innovative approach to resurrect a moribund business college, but faculty were too steeped in their insular traditions to budge. A few stepped forward, but most just wanted to teach in their narrow discipline and not be bothered. It made me want to gouge my eyes with a katana.

There is a role for an elite Northwestern in our society. And I think this video captures at least some of it: Get the smartest damn kids you can get, and get them to do ground-breaking work in the Arts and Sciences.

This is not a mission focus to directly serve the underserved. Publics have a role in that. That is not NU's role, We can serve society best with our formidable resource base by enabling the best young minds to do amazing things for society at large.

Recent years should have taught us that competence matters. A lot. So while NYU fires its well-regarded biochemistry professor because some students found him too demanding (Gasp! He wanted to fail some of them!), NU should remind everyone that not everyone gets a trophy, or a pass, at NU. Only the most competent need apply.

Athletics should be part of this. Competitive sports are incredible unique training for future leadership roles in society.

Now get off my lawn.

 

[No Chores]

This is quite a powerful branding message. I like it a lot. Colleges and universities have far too long been academically siloed, forcing their rigid discipline-focused degree program structure on the outside world. I worked for a large local private institution about 15 years ago in a turn-around situation, and trying to get faculty to collaborate to create cross-disciplinary degree programs was worse than pulling teeth. This represented an innovative approach to resurrect a moribund business college, but faculty were too steeped in their insular traditions to budge. A few stepped forward, but most just wanted to teach in their narrow discipline and not be bothered. It made me want to gouge my eyes with a katana.

There is a role for an elite Northwestern in our society. And I think this video captures at least some of it: Get the smartest damn kids you can get, and get them to do ground-breaking work in the Arts and Sciences.

This is not a mission focus to directly serve the underserved. That is not NU's role, We can serve society best with our formidable resource base by enabling the best young minds to do amazing things for society at large.

Recent years should have taught us that competence matters. A lot. So while NYU fires its well-regarded biochemistry professor because some students found him too demanding, NU should remind everyone that not everyone gets a trophy, or a pass, at NU. Only the most competent need apply.

Athletics should be part of this. Competitive sports are incredible unique training for future leadership roles in society.

Now get off my lawn.

Nice job Hungry - this is the post of the year so far!

 

[EvanstonCat]

Alright, there was a healthy debate on the Rock. Some premium posters stated that Duke is more prestigious than Northwestern.

I could not disagree more strongly with that statement, so after thinking about it I thought it would be a cool free board poll.

Let’s see what the good people say! Here’s the question and a very informative video if you don’t believe me.

Which university is more prestigious: Duke or Northwestern?

View embedded media

About the same. Objectively speaking, Duke is ranked higher.

Also, they have much better football and basketball than NU, so they've got that going for them too. And if you believe what Luke from Duke says, they party harder too.

 

[CatManTrue]

This is quite a powerful branding message. I like it a lot. Colleges and universities have far too long been academically siloed, forcing their rigid discipline-focused degree program structure on the outside world. I worked for a large local private institution about 15 years ago in a turn-around situation, and trying to get faculty to collaborate to create cross-disciplinary degree programs was worse than pulling teeth. This represented an innovative approach to resurrect a moribund business college, but faculty were too steeped in their insular traditions to budge. A few stepped forward, but most just wanted to teach in their narrow discipline and not be bothered. It made me want to gouge my eyes with a katana.

There is a role for an elite Northwestern in our society. And I think this video captures at least some of it: Get the smartest damn kids you can get, and get them to do ground-breaking work in the Arts and Sciences.

This is not a mission focus to directly serve the underserved. Publics have a role in that. That is not NU's role, We can serve society best with our formidable resource base by enabling the best young minds to do amazing things for society at large.

Recent years should have taught us that competence matters. A lot. So while NYU fires its well-regarded biochemistry professor because some students found him too demanding (Gasp! He wanted to fail some of them!), NU should remind everyone that not everyone gets a trophy, or a pass, at NU. Only the most competent need apply.

Athletics should be part of this. Competitive sports are incredible unique training for future leadership roles in society.

Now get off my lawn.

Agree with you 1000%. Do I still have to get your lawn off?

 

[hoosboot]

This is quite a powerful branding message. I like it a lot. Colleges and universities have far too long been academically siloed, forcing their rigid discipline-focused degree program structure on the outside world. I worked for a large local private institution about 15 years ago in a turn-around situation, and trying to get faculty to collaborate to create cross-disciplinary degree programs was worse than pulling teeth. This represented an innovative approach to resurrect a moribund business college, but faculty were too steeped in their insular traditions to budge. A few stepped forward, but most just wanted to teach in their narrow discipline and not be bothered. It made me want to gouge my eyes with a katana.

There is a role for an elite Northwestern in our society. And I think this video captures at least some of it: Get the smartest damn kids you can get, and get them to do ground-breaking work in the Arts and Sciences.

This is not a mission focus to directly serve the underserved. Publics have a role in that. That is not NU's role, We can serve society best with our formidable resource base by enabling the best young minds to do amazing things for society at large.

Recent years should have taught us that competence matters. A lot. So while NYU fires its well-regarded biochemistry professor because some students found him too demanding (Gasp! He wanted to fail some of them!), NU should remind everyone that not everyone gets a trophy, or a pass, at NU. Only the most competent need apply.

Athletics should be part of this. Competitive sports are incredible unique training for future leadership roles in society.

Now get off my lawn.

I think the challenge is not just getting what appear like "the smartest damn kids you can get", but actually tasking admissions with getting the kids who have the potential to do the most amazing work. I suspect the distinction there is what you mean, but I also suspect that the system hasn't always been set up to do that. There is a lot of untapped potential discarded by the way the system currently works, but hopefully NU (and colleges in general) are getting better at looking more holistically at candidates for admission (and standouts in extracurricular activities should definitely be part of this.)

 

[Hungry Jack]

Agree with you 1000%. Do I still have to get your lawn off?

Yes

 

[Eurocat]

And if you believe what Luke from Duke says, they party harder too.

I miss Lukie from Dukey! Party Hardy Duke style! LOL!

 

[phatcat]

College is so expensive because it is heavily subsidized by US taxpayers through federal student loans. When you subsidize something, like electric cars and solar power, you get more of it.

Students have been fed a mantra that any college degree dramatically increases earning power. Unfortunately this is not true for many fields. But student loans can help mask the very high cost of a college degree from a private school.

Higher ed in general has been raising prices at a rate greater than inflation for the better part of 25 years. Much of the extra revenue has gone into administrative or non-teaching positions, as well as capital investment.

Biden's student loan forgiveness plan does nothing to address the fundamental issue presented here.

And yet, as with many goods, a consumer can make rational decisions, although they often don't. If you can't afford your choice school without crippling loans, a) go to community College for 2 years b) finish at a state school to which you can commute, if possible, c) work part time or d) work full time and go to school part time, e) take a year off to work and save f) all of the above.

One of the silver threads of COVID was the tremor of fear in higher education as enrollment dropped. Then the pandemic ended, sort of, and the lemmings leapt right back in the water.

 

[No Chores]

About the same. Objectively speaking, Duke is ranked higher.

Also, they have much better football and basketball than NU, so they've got that going for them too. And if you believe what Luke from Duke says, they party harder too.

Nope, US News has Duke and Northwestern tied in the rankings at 10th. Football yes, basketball not so much.

 

[FanatiCat]

I was accepted to both Duke and NU for engineering. I did have the sense that Duke was nationally a bit more prestigious. Now, a generation later, I work in medicine and it is about the same - Duke slightly more prestigious. I have no regrets and I like NU over Duke anyday.

 

[Hungry Jack]

And yet, as with many goods, a consumer can make rational decisions, although they often don't. If you can't afford your choice school without crippling loans, a) go to community College for 2 years b) finish at a state school to which you can commute, if possible, c) work part time or d) work full time and go to school part time, e) take a year off to work and save f) all of the above.

One of the silver threads of COVID was the tremor of fear in higher education as enrollment dropped. Then the pandemic ended, sort of, and the lemmings leapt right back in the water.

The "rational" assumption about human behavior is pretty limited. Humans tend to have very high discount rates, so the long-term cost of a debt-financed education does not really sink in at the time of purchase.

 

[hdhntr1]

I was hoping to have a spirited debate on college costs.

They are both god awful expensive

 

[CatManTrue]

I miss Lukie from Dukey! Party Hardy Duke style! LOL!

Luke who? Luke Donald? The golfer??

 

[CatManTrue]

I was accepted to both Duke and NU for engineering. I did have the sense that Duke was nationally a bit more prestigious. Now, a generation later, I work in medicine and it is about the same - Duke slightly more prestigious. I have no regrets and I like NU over Duke anyday.

But what’s your closest metropolitan center?

That would skew your current bias my friend.

 

[CatManTrue]

Nope, US News has Duke and Northwestern tied in the rankings at 10th. Football yes, basketball not so much.

THIS guy gets it!

@GOUNUII could learn a thing or two about internet humor from you, Erie. I offended him once by jokingly using the “DOM” acronym and didn’t know why.

Now that I met him in person, I can tell why. GOUNU is a class act from Cincinnati. I’m just an old meathead from the NEO.

 

[CatManTrue]

Nothing will change. Too much money at stake, too many invested people and representatives too easily paid off.

Just like healthcare. A fundamental change would cause immense pain and suffering for a big group of people with money thus it will never change.

Agree on your first point.

I disagree strongly. Major disruption is on its way in healthcare.

With that, I’ve shared TMI.

NU is now ‘winning’ the poll. 15-9 (60%) with 40% neutral (abstained).

I think @CoralSpringsCat and other have some explaining to do. I love him but the free board exists for this very reason.

Now if we had true premium Wrestling, Basketball, Baseball (@lunker35 ), Lacrosse, and other boards it’d be great. I imagine the money’s not there.

Is @hollandnucat still lurking? I’d love to hear his thoughts. Or @epicbret ’s.

 

[fcmchi]

From a recent article In the New York Times about some smaller liberal arts colleges recently lowering tuition but also discussing how some high tuition was strictly for show and offset by scholarships:

“The resistance to tuition increases is a reversal from 20 years ago, when some colleges found that raising prices goosed applications, known as the Chivas Regal effect, as families equated price with quality. Families also liked the prestige of receiving scholarships. Colleges got into the habit of raising prices every year, and then using financial or merit aid to discount the price for students who could not afford full fare, or for high achievers and athletes whom they wanted to recruit.”

 

[FanatiCat]

But what’s your closest metropolitan center?

That would skew your current bias my friend.

Chicago 😃

 

[Eurocat]

If you want to end overpriced college degrees allow bankruptcies to wipe out college debt.

Currently you can declare bankruptcy but the college debt stays alive.

The banks love it.

How about - Bankruptcy? College debt taken care of too!

Then you would see silly loans for 100k fifth tier college degrees go away in 24 hours.

 

[phatcat]

If you want to end overpriced college degrees allow bankruptcies to wipe out college debt.

Currently you can declare bankruptcy but the college debt stays alive.

The banks love it.

How about - Bankruptcy? College debt taken care of too!

Then you would see silly loans for 100k fifth tier college degrees go away in 24 hours.

I like this, but aren't most of the loans federally guaranteed? If so, the banks don't give a shite

 

[Hungry Jack]

If you want to end overpriced college degrees allow bankruptcies to wipe out college debt.

Currently you can declare bankruptcy but the college debt stays alive.

The banks love it.

How about - Bankruptcy? College debt taken care of too!

Then you would see silly loans for 100k fifth tier college degrees go away in 24 hours.

I don’t see how that would have a noticeable effect

 

[epicbret]

I mean I'm not an NU grad, nor did I even apply to either. However I'd argue they are equally prestigious. It depends on where you are standing and what you are considering as a field of study.

 

[hdhntr1]

That’s a fair point. Most “southeasterners” prefer more Southern schools.

But most of America’s population doesn’t live in the ‘southeast’. They’re closer to Northwestern for a reason if you look at population centers as a… type… of gravity, if both think about it and you like physics like I do. And they still are.

Don't look now but more and more population centers are in the South. Not saying that there are not still a number of populations centers in the North. Just that they are growing faster in the South