OT? Why college is so expensive in America. (Bonus: Duke vs NU prestige ranking poll)

[hdhntr1]

College is so expensive because it is heavily subsidized by US taxpayers through federal student loans. When you subsidize something, like electric cars and solar power, you get more of it.

Students have been fed a mantra that any college degree dramatically increases earning power. Unfortunately this is not true for many fields. But student loans can help mask the very high cost of a college degree from a private school.

Higher ed in general has been raising prices at a rate greater than inflation for the better part of 25 years. Much of the extra revenue has gone into administrative or non-teaching positions, as well as capital investment.

Biden's student loan forgiveness plan does nothing to address the fundamental issue presented here.

When I went to NU, tuition was $2025 PER YEAR. We were told it represented the true total cost while state schools were about 1/3 of that because they were subsidized by the state taxpayers. So now tuition is 25-30 times more. Hard to come up with any kind of justification for that kind of increase. More and more government involvement and higher and higher costs

 

[hdhntr1]

On the west coast, it appears to be pretty solidly Northwestern.

Would have thought it would either be Stanford with Duke and NU being about even, Even UC Berkley would be up on the list

 

[hdhntr1]

College is so expensive because it is heavily subsidized by US taxpayers through federal student loans. When you subsidize something, like electric cars and solar power, you get more of it.

Students have been fed a mantra that any college degree dramatically increases earning power. Unfortunately this is not true for many fields. But student loans can help mask the very high cost of a college degree from a private school.

Higher ed in general has been raising prices at a rate greater than inflation for the better part of 25 years. Much of the extra revenue has gone into administrative or non-teaching positions, as well as capital investment.

Biden's student loan forgiveness plan does nothing to address the fundamental issue presented here.

Been more like 50 years

 

[hdhntr1]

I don’t see how that would have a noticeable effect

Lenders would not lend if they felt they would have to write off those loans. A lot of more meaningless degrees would be harder to get funding for

 

[hoosboot]

Would have thought it would either be Stanford with Duke and NU being about even, Even UC Berkley would be up on the list

In a choice between Northwestern and Duke, Stanford and UC Berkeley aren't appropriate answers.

If those two were additional choices, I think it would go

1) Stanford
2) Northwestern
3) Duke
4) Cal

I agree that the perceived difference between NU and Duke isn't huge, but it's still definitely there. And I have a ton of respect for Cal, but it doesn't seem to get nearly as much love as I thought it would.

 

[hdhntr1]

Would have thought it would either be Stanford with Duke and NU being about even, Even UC Berkley would be up on the list

The comment was about how it is viewed on the Left Coast. And when that is the place it is being compared, similar local similar status schools have to be part of the comparison.

If I am looking at just Duke and NU, they are comparable and closer than most here would aknowledge. It really depends on the major.

 

[hoosboot]

The comment was about how it is viewed on the Left Coast. And when that is the place it is being compared, similar local similar status schools have to be part of the comparison.

If I am looking at just Duke and NU, they are comparable and closer than most here would aknowledge. It really depends on the major.

I know because I'm the person who made the comment...which was that in a choice between Northwestern and Duke, Northwestern is seen more favorably on the West coast. That's where I live...with a wife who went to Duke...and kids applying to college. I understand the comparison that you want to make includes a bunch of other schools, but the conversation the OP started was about Duke and Northwestern...so that's what I responded to.

If you want to lump Berkeley in with NU and Duke as similar status schools, I think you'd add a couple of others around Berkeley and honestly probably wouldn't try to equate NU and Duke with Stanford. Agree though that the major is more important than the overall rep of a school.

 

[Gladeskat]

Spot on! @Hungry Jack gets it. Couldn’t agree more.

Here’s a video that I think we all can agree is incredible. I stumbled across it on YouTube last month and it staggered me. It’s not often that YouTube videos make me tear up but this one did. And, while we all have our own unique journeys to and fro wherever we go - this one reminded me exactly of why I loved college life in Evanston.

@CoralSpringsCat, @GOUNUII & @No Chores: I’m not as sharp as I used to be. Could you give this a watch too when you get a minute?

My next question: how often is the term “student athlete” mentioned in this video? I counted only once… but maybe I should invite some Duke fans to our free board to find out.

View embedded media

Nice video. I had a good chuckle watching it.

 

[DocCat2]

Nothing will change. Too much money at stake, too many invested people and representatives too easily paid off.

Just like healthcare. A fundamental change would cause immense pain and suffering for a big group of people with money thus it will never change.

This. So true. Sadly, I'm a physician. Worst healthcare "system" in the world as far as I'm concerned.

Plus, there absolutely has to be price fixing with college education. How on earth can a huge school with a huge campus and huge student body and huge faculty cost the same for a student as a tiny school on a tiny campus with a tiny enrollment and faculty? Price fixing. Illegal. Anti-Capitalist. And Not ever going to change....

 

[TheC]

When I went to NU, tuition was $2025 PER YEAR. We were told it represented the true cost while state schools were about 1/3 of that because they were subsidized by the state taxpayers. So now tuition is 25-30 times more. Hard to come up with any kind of justification for that kind of increase. More and more government involvement and higher and higher costs

Of course, back then, the professors were still scratching out their lessons on the cave wall.


(Oh... come on... you were asking for that!)

 

[hdhntr1]

Of course, back then, the professors were still scratching out their lessons on the cave wall.


(Oh... come on... you were asking for that!)

THere was not a cave in sight. And in many cases they are pretty similar to lessons currently being taught

 

[TheC]

THere was not a cave in sight. And in many cases they are pretty similar to lessons currently being taught

Every generation has to learn the fundamentals!

 

[hdhntr1]

Every generation has to learn the fundamentals!

Just saying the close to 30 times increase in cost for what are basically the same lessons and classes when supposedly at that time it reflected the true total cost is pretty hard to justify whether in is carved on cave walls or not

 

[TheC]

Just saying the close to 30 times increase in cost for what are basically the same lessons and classes when supposedly at that time it reflected the true total cost is pretty hard to justify whether in is carved on cave walls or not

Speaking as a college professor, I am not going to argue that the rising costs of college education aren't out of control. I'm also a parent putting two kids through college right now, so I know they are. However, I think the point you are making about teaching is a gross oversimplification - actually I think it is not accurate. I suppose it depends on the subject. Certainly in my world, the content and the manner in which we teach is incredibly different from 30 years ago.

 

[hdhntr1]

Speaking as a college professor, I am not going to argue that the rising costs of college education aren't out of control. I'm also a parent putting two kids through college right now, so I know they are. However, I think the point you are making about teaching is a gross oversimplification - actually I think it is not accurate. I suppose it depends on the subject. Certainly in my world, the content and the manner in which we teach is incredibly different from 30 years ago.

I was in Engineering and a lot of the basics and fundamentals likely have not changed that much Some new tools that were not available but basics still much the same. At the same time even when there are changes to content or manner of teaching, should the cost be that much different? Everywhere else improved efficiencies have kept price increase in check but somehow education is immune? Have the salaries of Professors at the same level gone up by 25-30 times or more like the 5 times experienced by the rest of society? And besides even of the increases to such salaries, how much of that is offset by outside funding such as research grants and the like. Again, similar increases have happened at the state school level as well so it is not unique to private schools. Also it is difficult to put the blame on new facilities as they are generally paid for by outside fundraising.

Again there seems to be a disconnect between what should be the true cost and the price.

 

[TheC]

I was in Engineering and a lot of the basics and fundamentals likely have not changed that much Some new tools that were not available but basics still much the same. At the same time even when there are changes to content or manner of teaching, should the cost be that much different? Everywhere else improved efficiencies have kept price increase in check but somehow education is immune? Have the salaries of Professors at the same level gone up by 25-30 times or more like the 5 times experienced by the rest of society? And besides even of the increases to such salaries, how much of that is offset by outside funding such as research grants and the like. Again, similar increases have happened at the state school level as well so it is not unique to private schools. Also it is difficult to put the blame on new facilities as they are generally paid for by outside fundraising.

Again there seems to be a disconnect between what should be the true cost and the price.

I don't pretend to have any special insight into why costs have soared. I am sure faculty salaries have increased. The pay for many white collar jobs have gone up the past few decades as the gap between the have and have-nots has widened. College Professors are probably no exception to this. However, I agree with you that they couldn't possibly account for all of this.

One thing that has exploded at most universities are the layers of administration. Some of that seems bloated, however, as I get more and more senior here and see how the sausage is made, I recognize that many of these people are really needed. The world is growing in complexity and it takes additional support to keep the lights on and the engines humming.

But I also think some of it is just a reflection of our current society. We have more stuff than we ever used to before and now that stuff seems indispensable. Universities are no different. I think about when I was in college, I didn't have to buy a cell phone and a laptop and a tablet. I didn't have a cell phone plan and an internet plan and 5 different streaming services. I have no idea how people afford all these things. The equivalent at major universities probably include things like technology, major equipment, facilities like fancy rec centers and high-end laboratories and performance spaces. Some of this stuff is fund-raised for, like you said, but not necessarily the operations and personnel costs.

 

[CatManTrue]

Nice video. I had a good chuckle watching it.

I have to ask… what about it made you chuckle?

 

[CatManTrue]

I don't pretend to have any special insight into why costs have soared. I am sure faculty salaries have increased. The pay for many white collar jobs have gone up the past few decades as the gap between the have and have-nots has widened. College Professors are probably no exception to this. However, I agree with you that they couldn't possibly account for all of this.

One thing that has exploded at most universities are the layers of administration. Some of that seems bloated, however, as I get more and more senior here and see how the sausage is made, I recognize that many of these people are really needed. The world is growing in complexity and it takes additional support to keep the lights on and the engines humming.

But I also think some of it is just a reflection of our current society. We have more stuff than we ever used to before and now that stuff seems indispensable. Universities are no different. I think about when I was in college, I didn't have to buy a cell phone and a laptop and a tablet. I didn't have a cell phone plan and an internet plan and 5 different streaming services. I have no idea how people afford all these things. The equivalent at major universities probably include things like technology, major equipment, facilities like fancy rec centers and high-end laboratories and performance spaces. Some of this stuff is fund-raised for, like you said, but not necessarily the operations and personnel costs.

Construction and technology costs have played as big a part in skyrocketing tuition as anything based on my observations.

Every college is spending like they’re in an arms race against each other. The students pay for nicer facilities and better technology with their tuition.

Also, colleges either can’t or don’t want to make a dent in their endowments… for now.

 

[Gladeskat]

I have to ask… what about it made you chuckle?

You're all upset that I regard Duke as an excellent school that kicks NU's ass out the fricking door in my field, freshwater biology. So, you won't want to hear the answer, bro. Not on this venue, and things at NU have improved greatly since then. They had to.

I'll say this though, the best class I ever had as an undergrad by far was a graduate seminar course at NU on EO Wilson's controversial book, "Sociobiology." It was very transformative for me. Many years later, I wanted to thank the Prof. who taught the course, Dr. Constance Campbell, for allowing me to take it as an undergrad, even though it was over a bit over my head as an undergrad with only one class in ethology. Sadly, she had passed away at a young age from cancer.

Her office wall 'decorations' were hilarious turn on male decorative tastes in the workplace as well. Imagine talking to a professor with a dozen Playgirl pinups on the walls, including 3-4 right behind her. An interesting lesson in how it feels to be treated as a sex object.

I perused NU's academic catalogs recently and I was surprised and pleased that there were people doing the sort of work such as paleolimnological research that overlaps well with my training. Reductionism seems to have been reduced a bit at NU these days.

 

[Eurocat]

You want to know why college is so expensive in America these days?

Look at the pics.

(Mod note: you have to use the Image button instead of the Link button)

 

[hdhntr1]

In a choice between Northwestern and Duke, Stanford and UC Berkeley aren't appropriate answers.

If those two were additional choices, I think it would go

1) Stanford
2) Northwestern
3) Duke
4) Cal

I agree that the perceived difference between NU and Duke isn't huge, but it's still definitely there. And I have a ton of respect for Cal, but it doesn't seem to get nearly as much love as I thought it would.

Seems a reasonable ranking. But I would probably put NU and Duke on the same line as I would guess that across the whole country regional biases would tend to equal out.

 

[hoosboot]

Seems a reasonable ranking. But I would probably put NU and Duke on the same line as I would guess that across the whole country regional biases would tend to equal out.

I think we're saying a similar thing. I meant that the perception is definitely there in certain regions, but agree that they are very similar institutions and students can have fantastic experiences at both.

 

[CatManTrue]

You're all upset that I regard Duke as an excellent school that kicks NU's ass out the fricking door in my field, freshwater biology. So, you won't want to hear the answer, bro. Not on this venue, and things at NU have improved greatly since then. They had to.

I'll say this though, the best class I ever had as an undergrad by far was a graduate seminar course at NU on EO Wilson's controversial book, "Sociobiology." It was very transformative for me. Many years later, I wanted to thank the Prof. who taught the course, Dr. Constance Campbell, for allowing me to take it as an undergrad, even though it was over a bit over my head as an undergrad with only one class in ethology. Sadly, she had passed away at a young age from cancer.

Her office wall 'decorations' were hilarious turn on male decorative tastes in the workplace as well. Imagine talking to a professor with a dozen Playgirl pinups on the walls, including 3-4 right behind her. An interesting lesson in how it feels to be treated as a sex object.

I perused NU's academic catalogs recently and I was surprised and pleased that there were people doing the sort of work such as paleolimnological research that overlaps well with my training. Reductionism seems to have been reduced a bit at NU these days.

Why would that upset me (or anyone)? Your points are perfectly valid.

If you want to be treated as a sex object, join the corporate world. It’s all fun and games when the right people are hitting on you.

It’s not so cool when divorced (or married!) women 15-20 years older than you chase you to your car to try and talk shop. I guess the NU pedigree is too much for them to resist.

 

[FeralFelidae]

You're all upset that I regard Duke as an excellent school that kicks NU's ass out the fricking door in my field, freshwater biology. So, you won't want to hear the answer, bro. Not on this venue, and things at NU have improved greatly since then. They had to.

I'll say this though, the best class I ever had as an undergrad by far was a graduate seminar course at NU on EO Wilson's controversial book, "Sociobiology." It was very transformative for me. Many years later, I wanted to thank the Prof. who taught the course, Dr. Constance Campbell, for allowing me to take it as an undergrad, even though it was over a bit over my head as an undergrad with only one class in ethology. Sadly, she had passed away at a young age from cancer.

Her office wall 'decorations' were hilarious turn on male decorative tastes in the workplace as well. Imagine talking to a professor with a dozen Playgirl pinups on the walls, including 3-4 right behind her. An interesting lesson in how it feels to be treated as a sex object.

I perused NU's academic catalogs recently and I was surprised and pleased that there were people doing the sort of work such as paleolimnological research that overlaps well with my training. Reductionism seems to have been reduced a bit at NU these days.

The Divers Alert Network (DAN) for scuba divers was founded at Duke. Their insurance is a must for divers.

 

[Gladeskat]

Why would that upset me (or anyone)? Your points are perfectly valid.

If you want to be treated as a sex object, join the corporate world. It’s all fun and games when the right people are hitting on you.

It’s not so cool when divorced (or married!) women 15-20 years older than you chase you to your car to try and talk shop. I guess the NU pedigree is too much for them to resist.

LOL. That's because I avoided stating my reasons. I've stated them in the past and there's no need opening that up for discussion. It unfairly casts shade on NU today and NU has fixed several of these problems long ago.

If you have a need to know, then send me a PM.

 

[LobsterGoesPinchPinch]

I graduated NU in 2003 and Fuqua (Duke MBA) in 2011, so it's been a while. Academically I'd put Duke a couple spots higher. Socially, no contest, Duke hands down.

 

[Eurocat]

You want to know why college is so expensive in America these days?

Look at the pics.

(Mod note: you have to use the Image button instead of the Link button)

Thanks!

 

[CatManTrue]

I graduated NU in 2003 and Fuqua (Duke MBA) in 2011, so it's been a while. Academically I'd put Duke a couple spots higher. Socially, no contest, Duke hands down.

But what about those of us Wildcats who weren’t afraid to take the Purple Line down to the citay?

I remember visiting Wrigleyville when Bartman dropped the ball. And many other visits to Chicago.

How far away is Durham from the real world?

 

[LobsterGoesPinchPinch]

But what about those of us Wildcats who weren’t afraid to take the Purple Line down to the citay?

I remember visiting Wrigleyville when Bartman dropped the ball. And many other visits to Chicago.

How far away is Durham from the real world?

Yeah, fair point, I was a total nerd at NU, plus super poor, and rarely made it downtown. I worked at McKinsey for a while on Randoph, and yeah, downtown Chicago rocks.

Durham is much nicer than it used to be but I don't think it's even as good as Evanston. Chapel Hill is an amazing college town, and Raleigh is cool, about 20 minutes away. But yeah, Chicago wins hands down.

 

[Eurocat]

If you want to be treated as a sex object, join the corporate world. It’s all fun and games when the right people are hitting on you.

Wait..,..Wut?



Actually forget that, I don't think I want to know.

 

[CatManTrue]

Wait..,..Wut?



Actually forget that, I don't think I want to know.

It’s a meat market man.

Until I got married, women would hit on me just because I’m a tall alpha male. It got kind of weird. I almost had to file a complaint once because one 40-something kept asking about my love live… while I was engaged.

Now that I’m married and approaching middle age and working remotely, it is a distant memory. Women can be just as bad as men these days. Equality.

 

[DaCat]

I graduated NU in 2003 and Fuqua (Duke MBA) in 2011, so it's been a while. Academically I'd put Duke a couple spots higher. Socially, no contest, Duke hands down.

I also went the NU/Duke route. Kind of cracks me up how hard @CatManTrue tries to stir the pot. Ho hum.

 

[CatManTrue]

I also went the NU/Duke route. Kind of cracks me up how hard @CatManTrue tries to stir the pot. Ho hum.

I stirred the pot with this poll and it’s been one of the best semi-OT threads on the free board in some time.

And so far, NU is winning 60-40. Boom shakalaka.

 

[Gladeskat]

I also went the NU/Duke route. Kind of cracks me up how hard @CatManTrue tries to stir the pot. Ho hum.

If one's college experience is limited to only Northwestern, then how does one compare schools?

 

[Gladeskat]

I stirred the pot with this poll and it’s been one of the best semi-OT threads on the free board in some time.

And so far, NU is winning 60-40. Boom shakalaka.

Great!

Does that mean my genetics and cell bio credits will transfer from NU now? Afterall, NU chose to excel at the cellular and molecular levels of biology.

 

[CatManTrue]

Great!

Does that mean my genetics and cell bio credits will transfer from NU now? Afterall, NU chose to excel at the cellular and molecular levels of biology.

Bro. I had to move and switched high schools; my accelerated / AP credits from my first HS didn’t transfer to my second. So, I feel your pain on this subject matter.

It was fine though. I recall my accelerated biology teacher’s advice from my freshman year: colleges look not only at the cumulative GPA, but also the trend over time.

This proved crucial for me during the college application process. I was upset about it for about 5 minutes my sophomore year, and then I got to work.

 

[Gladeskat]

Bro. I had to move and switched high schools; my accelerated / AP credits from my first HS didn’t transfer to my second. So, I feel your pain on this subject matter.

It was fine though. I recall my accelerated biology teacher’s advice from my freshman year: colleges look not only at the cumulative GPA, but also the trend over time.

This proved crucial for me during the college application process. I was upset about it for about 5 minutes my sophomore year, and then I got to work.

This was college, where both money and sweat equity were involved and the stakes are higher. I found out about this snafu when I talked to Prof advisors at Wheaton. They were both on a college accreditation board and were aware of NU's temporary deficiencies in the biology program (no labs concurrent with lecture). Ouch! Wheaton also didn't warm to my "Sociobiology" and "Ancient Egyptian Religion" classes, either. Though they accepted Sociobiology as a credit, they were very concerned about the ideas presented in the course and its effect on my spiritual well-being.

It didn't bother me much at the time. The coursework at Wheaton, including taking genetics over again and taking general biology (which should be required for all bio majors, IMO) helped me crush my GRE Advanced (subject) test, which is used as a baccalaureate exam at Wheaton.

I only mention this and other issues largely to troll NU alums when they become obnoxious with their boastfulness about NU and an NU education. DocCatsFan triggered me once with some excessive gushing over everything NU. He attended NU after NU made some necessary changes to reduce potential liability. Anyway, I promptly tossed NU under the bus for a list of issues, and the dissonance started an academic pissing contest where even insect pest problems and the food service at NU were attacked.

Seeing as we're both fans of NU football and this is a public board, any further discussion is best for the program elsewhere.

 

[TheC]

This was college, where both money and sweat equity were involved and the stakes are higher. I found out about this snafu when I talked to Prof advisors at Wheaton. They were both on a college accreditation board and were aware of NU's temporary deficiencies in the biology program (no labs concurrent with lecture). Ouch! Wheaton also didn't warm to my "Sociobiology" and "Ancient Egyptian Religion" classes, either. Though they accepted Sociobiology as a credit, they were very concerned about the ideas presented in the course and its effect on my spiritual well-being.

It didn't bother me much at the time. The coursework at Wheaton, including taking genetics over again and taking general biology (which should be required for all bio majors, IMO) helped me crush my GRE Advanced (subject) test, which is used as a baccalaureate exam at Wheaton.

I only mention this and other issues largely to troll NU alums when they become obnoxious with their boastfulness about NU and an NU education. DocCatsFan triggered me once with some excessive gushing over everything NU. He attended NU after NU made some necessary changes to reduce potential liability. Anyway, I promptly tossed NU under the bus for a list of issues, and the dissonance started an academic pissing contest where even insect pest problems and the food service at NU were attacked.

Seeing as we're both fans of NU football and this is a public board, any further discussion is best for the program elsewhere.

Anyone who is getting a superiority complex about Northwestern should remember the next time they read one of my posts that I graduated from Northwestern.

 

[Gladeskat]

Anyone who is getting a superiority complex about Northwestern should remember the next time they read one of my posts that I graduated from Northwestern.

You overcame your disadvantages quite well, theC. You endeavored to persevere.

 

[DaCat]

If one's college experience is limited to only Northwestern, then how does one compare schools?

In my case, I definitely preferred NU over Duke. But that's not to say one is superior to another, just a personal preference. Duke has a nice campus with the iconic chapel and a kick ass golf course, but my undergraduate experience at NU was life transforming and put me on a path for which I'm deeply grateful.