"Pro style quarterback"

[NUCat320]

I noticed today that each of NU's three most recent QB commits - Whittaker, Marty, Aidan Smith - are listed as "pro style" versus "dual threat". (Yates was dual threat, but is no longer a quarterback.)

In the opinion of film watchers in the group, is this an arbitrary designation given to this trio mostly because they're tall, or does it truly reflect their skill set?

Thorson broke fewer long runs as a sophomore, but he also made considerable progress with the read option. Many here believe that the offense works better with a running threat. I'd be interested if we're looking at a group for whom that's not a part of the game.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

I noticed today that each of NU's three most recent QB commits - Whittaker, Marty, Aidan Smith - are listed as "pro style" versus "dual threat". (Yates was dual threat, but is no longer a quarterback.)

In the opinion of film watchers in the group, is this an arbitrary designation given to this trio mostly because they're tall, or does it truly reflect their skill set?

Thorson broke fewer long runs as a sophomore, but he also made considerable progress with the read option. Many here believe that the offense works better with a running threat. I'd be interested if we're looking at a group for whom that's not a part of the game.

Completely arbitrary.

 

[Deeringfish]

Completely arbitrary.

I agree that it is arbitrary but it does seem like we use our QB's differently lately. More like a pro set in some ways. Fewer called QB runs.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I agree that it is arbitrary but it does seem like we use our QB's differently lately. More like a pro set in some ways. Fewer called QB runs.

You take the best guy we can get each year. These were the best guys. None of the 3 are statues, so we'll be fine.

 

[Katatonic]

While not true in every case, pro-style QBs tend to be more polished passers than so-called dual-threat QBs (who often just rely on their athleticism to make plays).

Always have preferred pro-style QBs with enough athleticism to scramble/roll-out over dual-threat QBs who are behind in development as passers.

 

[EvanstonCat]

While not true in every case, pro-style QBs tend to be more polished passers than so-called dual-threat QBs (who often just rely on their athleticism to make plays).

Always have preferred pro-style QBs with enough athleticism to scramble/roll-out over dual-threat QBs who are behind in development as passers.

Yup. It's like do you take Kain Colter or Trevor Siemian. I'll take the NFL Starter every time over the guy who should be playing WR. Especially when the NFL starter could be throwing to that WR and you get as much talent as possible onto the field for every play. It's absolutely a good turn for us.

And I think the coaches realize the personnel mistake they made a few years ago and are going with kids who are QBs first, who happen also to have sufficiently mobility to make plays.

 

[Gladeskat]

Yup. It's like do you take Kain Colter or Trevor Siemian. I'll take the NFL Starter every time over the guy who should be playing WR. Especially when the NFL starter could be throwing to that WR and you get as much talent as possible onto the field for every play. It's absolutely a good turn for us.

And I think the coaches realize the personnel mistake they made a few years ago and are going with kids who are QBs first, who happen also to have sufficiently mobility to make plays.

And then you shut down your running game and become one-dimensional. Siemian was harassed enough as it was. Imagine how many sacks and injuries he'd have had if defenses pinned back their ears and came after him on every play against our stellar OL.

 

[PurpleHaze525]

And then you shut down your running game and become one-dimensional. Siemian was harassed enough as it was. Imagine how many sacks and injuries he'd have had if defenses pinned back their ears and came after him on every play against our stellar OL.

What do you mean "if" defenses pinned their ears back? Isn't that exactly what happened every time he subbed in for Colter? (Serious question, I always assumed that's what happened since Trevor was the 'passer' but maybe I'm wrong)

 

[phatcat]

Yup. It's like do you take Kain Colter or Trevor Siemian. I'll take the NFL Starter every time over the guy who should be playing WR. Especially when the NFL starter could be throwing to that WR and you get as much talent as possible onto the field for every play. It's absolutely a good turn for us.

And I think the coaches realize the personnel mistake they made a few years ago and are going with kids who are QBs first, who happen also to have sufficiently mobility to make plays.

Colter was better

 

[EvanstonCat]

Colter was better

At catching the ball. Certainly not throwing it.

 

[Gladeskat]

At catching the ball. Certainly not throwing it.

A 69.4% career completion percentage (89% for throws under 15 yards) and 139 passer rating argues otherwise. He just didn't throw enough.

 

[phatcat]

At catching the ball. Certainly not throwing it.

At winning

 

[hdhntr1]

At catching the ball. Certainly not throwing it.

Colter was the better choice at QB for our O at the time. TS needed a better OL than we had.

 

[hdhntr1]

Yup. It's like do you take Kain Colter or Trevor Siemian. I'll take the NFL Starter every time over the guy who should be playing WR. Especially when the NFL starter could be throwing to that WR and you get as much talent as possible onto the field for every play. It's absolutely a good turn for us.

And I think the coaches realize the personnel mistake they made a few years ago and are going with kids who are QBs first, who happen also to have sufficiently mobility to make plays.

First, TS was not an NFL starter at the time. Second, he had a hard time staying healthy. KC was the better choice at the time.

 

[Katatonic]

And then you shut down your running game and become one-dimensional. Siemian was harassed enough as it was. Imagine how many sacks and injuries he'd have had if defenses pinned back their ears and came after him on every play against our stellar OL.

One could say that the O w/ Colter was 1-dimensional as defenses keyed on the running game and didn't worry about the QB stretching the field.

And let's not forget, Colter had the higher sack rate by a good margin.

Colter was better

This claim has been repeated a no. of times despite being untrue.

At winning

Seems to me that both Colter and Siemian had pretty much an equal hand in the success of the 2012 season, but neither made as much of a mark as well, Mark.

The 2013-14 seasons were riddled by injuries and w/o Siemian - likely would not have beaten PSU, Wisconsin and ND in 2014 (and should have beaten UM, but the coaches muffed that up).

Much like Siemian's season with the Broncos, exactly where on O did Trevor have help?

At least the Broncos have 2 very good outside receivers.

First, TS was not an NFL starter at the time. Second, he had a hard time staying healthy. KC was the better choice at the time.

Siemian was perfectly healthy in 2012 and seem to recall Colter going thru his own injury issues.

There's a reason why the coaching staff went more to Siemian in 2013, but unlike E-Cat, don't have an issue w/ Colter playing QB as much as I do the manner in how the 2 were switched in and out.

And really - do you think 1 season (sitting on the bench) made that much of a difference in Siemian as a QB?

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-a...-numbers/822f5516-0831-4e37-9578-bd7015a445fe

... Of the 15 first- or second-year quarterbacks with at least 350 attempts in their first season as starters since 2012, Siemian's 84.6 rating ranks sixth, ahead of Jameis Winston, Derek Carr and Andrew Luck, among others, and behind Dak Prescott, Robert Griffin III, Russell Wilson, Marcus Mariota and Teddy Bridgewater.

All-time, Siemian's rating places him 19th of 109 first- or second-year passers with 350 or more attempts in their first season as a starter. His plus-8 touchdown-to-interception margin is tied for 17th among those 109 quarterbacks.

- And that's with taking snaps behind one of the worst O-lines in the NFL, a running game that repeatedly couldn't convert on 3rd and short (hmmmm - doesn't that sound familiar?) and a lack of play-makers at possession receivers (be it at TE, RB or slot).

Feel bad for Trevor since he went to pretty much the same situation on offense in the NFL as he had for most his time at NU; the Broncos also had little in the way of a return game, so the coaching staff put it on Siemian's arm (and brain) to win games, even if it meant passing more than 40x a game (which is not a recipe for success).

Conversely, Elliott went from running behind one of the best (if not the best) O-lines in college at dOSU to one of the best (if not the best) in the NFL.

Last year, dOSU's O-line, while decent, was no where close to being dominant.
Look how that affected JT Barrett's play, including in the 4th quarter of the loss to Penn State? And Barrett should be a much better QB as a JR than he was as a Frosh.

There have been grumblings from a large portion of the dOSU fanbase about it being time for a change at QB (for one of the young guns), but that's just stupid fans talking.

Same thing happened to Beathard at Iowa.
Should have been a better QB w/ a season and a third of starts under his belt.

But pretty much all of his stats were down from his 2014 and 2015 seasons.

Gee, I wonder what the common denominator could be?

I can't but shake my head at how obtuse so-called football fans can be (both for college and for the NFL,) when it comes to analyzing QB play (which can't be analyzed within a vacuum).

A 69.4% career completion percentage (89% for throws under 15 yards) and 139 passer rating argues otherwise. He just didn't throw enough.

Oh, c'mon Glades - you more than anyone should know that Colter's gaudy completion % was in large part due to the type of throws Colter attempted.

Colter rarely stretched the field and he didn't have the ability to throw into tight windows down the field.

There's a reason why Siemian was the one who the coaching staff turned to when the 'Cats needed a quick score before the half or in the 4th quarter.

Doubtful that Colter could have engineered that 4th quarter comeback (twice leading the O down the length of the field) in the MOON game.

If Colter could do what Siemian could do as a passer, there would never have been a split duty at QB as Colter would have been the full-time starter.

There's also the reason why the coaching staff continued to play Trevor when I thought that he shouldn't have been playing (such as the Western Illinois game where Siemian's clearly had a difficult time moving in the pocket, much less stepping into his throws).

 

[Katatonic]

At winning

Really?

How did the Colter-led O do in crunch time (OT) against UM in 2012 and Iowa in 2013?

Couldn't even get a 1st down.

Btw, it was Siemian who threw the go-ahead TD and the Colter-led O couldn't gain another 1st down to run out the clock (did gain one 1st down, but just barely getting it on 4th and 1).

 

[EvanstonCat]

Really?

How did the Colter-led O do in crunch time (OT) against UM in 2012 and Iowa in 2013?

Couldn't even get a 1st down.

Btw, it was Siemian who threw the go-ahead TD and the Colter-led O couldn't gain another 1st down to run out the clock (did gain one 1st down, but just barely getting it on 4th and 1).

Everyone talks about the 10 wins we had with QB 1a and 1b. But, I wonder if we wouldn't have won 11 or 12 with just TS and KC playing a lot more as a dynamic WR. I guess we will never know.

 

[thewildcat2011]

Lol who gives a crap? Y'all are a bunch of petty m'fers.

 

[hdhntr1]

One could say that the O w/ Colter was 1-dimensional as defenses keyed on the running game and didn't worry about the QB stretching the field.

And let's not forget, Colter had the higher sack rate by a good margin.




This claim has been repeated a no. of times despite being untrue.



Seems to me that both Colter and Siemian had pretty much an equal hand in the success of the 2012 season, but neither made as much of a mark as well, Mark.

The 2013-14 seasons were riddled by injuries and w/o Siemian - likely would not have beaten PSU, Wisconsin and ND in 2014 (and should have beaten UM, but the coaches muffed that up).

Much like Siemian's season with the Broncos, exactly where on O did Trevor have help?

At least the Broncos have 2 very good outside receivers.




Siemian was perfectly healthy in 2012 and seem to recall Colter going thru his own injury issues.

There's a reason why the coaching staff went more to Siemian in 2013, but unlike E-Cat, don't have an issue w/ Colter playing QB as much as I do the manner in how the 2 were switched in and out.

And really - do you think 1 season (sitting on the bench) made that much of a difference in Siemian as a QB?

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-a...-numbers/822f5516-0831-4e37-9578-bd7015a445fe

... Of the 15 first- or second-year quarterbacks with at least 350 attempts in their first season as starters since 2012, Siemian's 84.6 rating ranks sixth, ahead of Jameis Winston, Derek Carr and Andrew Luck, among others, and behind Dak Prescott, Robert Griffin III, Russell Wilson, Marcus Mariota and Teddy Bridgewater.

All-time, Siemian's rating places him 19th of 109 first- or second-year passers with 350 or more attempts in their first season as a starter. His plus-8 touchdown-to-interception margin is tied for 17th among those 109 quarterbacks.

- And that's with taking snaps behind one of the worst O-lines in the NFL, a running game that repeatedly couldn't convert on 3rd and short (hmmmm - doesn't that sound familiar?) and a lack of play-makers at possession receivers (be it at TE, RB or slot).

Feel bad for Trevor since he went to pretty much the same situation on offense in the NFL as he had for most his time at NU; the Broncos also had little in the way of a return game, so the coaching staff put it on Siemian's arm (and brain) to win games, even if it meant passing more than 40x a game (which is not a recipe for success).

Conversely, Elliott went from running behind one of the best (if not the best) O-lines in college at dOSU to one of the best (if not the best) in the NFL.

Last year, dOSU's O-line, while decent, was no where close to being dominant.
Look how that affected JT Barrett's play, including in the 4th quarter of the loss to Penn State? And Barrett should be a much better QB as a JR than he was as a Frosh.

There have been grumblings from a large portion of the dOSU fanbase about it being time for a change at QB (for one of the young guns), but that's just stupid fans talking.

Same thing happened to Beathard at Iowa.
Should have been a better QB w/ a season and a third of starts under his belt.

But pretty much all of his stats were down from his 2014 and 2015 seasons.

Gee, I wonder what the common denominator could be?

I can't but shake my head at how obtuse so-called football fans can be (both for college and for the NFL,) when it comes to analyzing QB play (which can't be analyzed within a vacuum).




Oh, c'mon Glades - you more than anyone should know that Colter's gaudy completion % was in large part due to the type of throws Colter attempted.

Colter rarely stretched the field and he didn't have the ability to throw into tight windows down the field.

There's a reason why Siemian was the one who the coaching staff turned to when the 'Cats needed a quick score before the half or in the 4th quarter.

Doubtful that Colter could have engineered that 4th quarter comeback (twice leading the O down the length of the field) in the MOON game.

If Colter could do what Siemian could do as a passer, there would never have been a split duty at QB as Colter would have been the full-time starter.

There's also the reason why the coaching staff continued to play Trevor when I thought that he shouldn't have been playing (such as the Western Illinois game where Siemian's clearly had a difficult time moving in the pocket, much less stepping into his throws).

In that year, Siemian was too much of a riverboat gambler. He threw a lot into the arms of defenders and was lucky enough to not have then picked off. He did nothave the mobility that Colter did and was needed behind our OL that year. He got his chances as time went on and when the O could be built more around him but then he had a hard time staying healthy. And if he had not gone to Denver, he likely would not have had the chance to start

Oh, and remember what happened when KC went down in2013? We went through a 6 game losing streak with Siemian as QB for much of it.

 

[Hungry Jack]

At least this debate, while a bit tired, offers more substance than the Carmody vs. Collins dead horse.

 

[NJCat]

At least this debate, while a bit tired, offers more substance than the Carmody vs. Collins dead horse.

Tallest midget neighborhood though.

 

[HawkCat]

Colter was the better choice at QB for our O at the time. TS needed a better OL than we had.

This is correct. With even an average OL, the right call would have been to start Siemian and use Colter as a WR and perhaps as a situational QB. But with the OL we had at the time, the O was going to be more productive overall with Colter as the primary QB. It was not preferable and was purely a Band-Aid for our OL situation. And I say this as a HUGE Siemian fan.

 

[EvanstonCat]

One could say that the O w/ Colter was 1-dimensional as defenses keyed on the running game and didn't worry about the QB stretching the field.

And let's not forget, Colter had the higher sack rate by a good margin.




This claim has been repeated a no. of times despite being untrue.



Seems to me that both Colter and Siemian had pretty much an equal hand in the success of the 2012 season, but neither made as much of a mark as well, Mark.

The 2013-14 seasons were riddled by injuries and w/o Siemian - likely would not have beaten PSU, Wisconsin and ND in 2014 (and should have beaten UM, but the coaches muffed that up).

Much like Siemian's season with the Broncos, exactly where on O did Trevor have help?

At least the Broncos have 2 very good outside receivers.




Siemian was perfectly healthy in 2012 and seem to recall Colter going thru his own injury issues.

There's a reason why the coaching staff went more to Siemian in 2013, but unlike E-Cat, don't have an issue w/ Colter playing QB as much as I do the manner in how the 2 were switched in and out.

And really - do you think 1 season (sitting on the bench) made that much of a difference in Siemian as a QB?

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-a...-numbers/822f5516-0831-4e37-9578-bd7015a445fe

... Of the 15 first- or second-year quarterbacks with at least 350 attempts in their first season as starters since 2012, Siemian's 84.6 rating ranks sixth, ahead of Jameis Winston, Derek Carr and Andrew Luck, among others, and behind Dak Prescott, Robert Griffin III, Russell Wilson, Marcus Mariota and Teddy Bridgewater.

All-time, Siemian's rating places him 19th of 109 first- or second-year passers with 350 or more attempts in their first season as a starter. His plus-8 touchdown-to-interception margin is tied for 17th among those 109 quarterbacks.

- And that's with taking snaps behind one of the worst O-lines in the NFL, a running game that repeatedly couldn't convert on 3rd and short (hmmmm - doesn't that sound familiar?) and a lack of play-makers at possession receivers (be it at TE, RB or slot).

Feel bad for Trevor since he went to pretty much the same situation on offense in the NFL as he had for most his time at NU; the Broncos also had little in the way of a return game, so the coaching staff put it on Siemian's arm (and brain) to win games, even if it meant passing more than 40x a game (which is not a recipe for success).

Conversely, Elliott went from running behind one of the best (if not the best) O-lines in college at dOSU to one of the best (if not the best) in the NFL.

Last year, dOSU's O-line, while decent, was no where close to being dominant.
Look how that affected JT Barrett's play, including in the 4th quarter of the loss to Penn State? And Barrett should be a much better QB as a JR than he was as a Frosh.

There have been grumblings from a large portion of the dOSU fanbase about it being time for a change at QB (for one of the young guns), but that's just stupid fans talking.

Same thing happened to Beathard at Iowa.
Should have been a better QB w/ a season and a third of starts under his belt.

But pretty much all of his stats were down from his 2014 and 2015 seasons.

Gee, I wonder what the common denominator could be?

I can't but shake my head at how obtuse so-called football fans can be (both for college and for the NFL,) when it comes to analyzing QB play (which can't be analyzed within a vacuum).




Oh, c'mon Glades - you more than anyone should know that Colter's gaudy completion % was in large part due to the type of throws Colter attempted.

Colter rarely stretched the field and he didn't have the ability to throw into tight windows down the field.

There's a reason why Siemian was the one who the coaching staff turned to when the 'Cats needed a quick score before the half or in the 4th quarter.

Doubtful that Colter could have engineered that 4th quarter comeback (twice leading the O down the length of the field) in the MOON game.

If Colter could do what Siemian could do as a passer, there would never have been a split duty at QB as Colter would have been the full-time starter.

There's also the reason why the coaching staff continued to play Trevor when I thought that he shouldn't have been playing (such as the Western Illinois game where Siemian's clearly had a difficult time moving in the pocket, much less stepping into his throws).

Exactly on the point about the OL. Denver had a horrible OL. Siemian still had a solid performance. People act like we would have fallen apart had we no

This is correct. With even an average OL, the right call would have been to start Siemian and use Colter as a WR and perhaps as a situational QB. But with the OL we had at the time, the O was going to be more productive overall with Colter as the primary QB. It was not preferable and was purely a Band-Aid for our OL situation. And I say this as a HUGE Siemian fan.

Debunked by the fact that Siemian played behind an absolutely horrid OL at Denver and still won AFC Offensive Player of the Week

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Debunked by the fact that Siemian played behind an absolutely horrid OL at Denver and still won AFC Offensive Player of the Week

Think that might have had something to do with throwing to two guys with seven Pro Bowls combined in Emmanuel Sanders (9 catches for 117 yards and 2 TDs) and DeMaryius Thomas (6 catches for 100 yards and 1 TD) instead of the crew Trevor had in 2014 for his one year as full-time starter?

Look, I think Trevor has been a revelation for the Broncos and was extremely underrated for his time at Northwestern. I thought he had potential as a starting P5 QB and NFL prospect from the moment he got to campus. That said, the state of our OL and WR in 2012/2013 forced McCall to move away from his preferred scheme centered on a quick-hit ball-control passing game with occasional shots downfield to a ground-based option attack. Our OL flat-out sucked in pass protection, but was adequate in the run game. The WRs had admirable physical skills, but difficulty in consistently getting open and (most importantly) catching the ball with any consistency (remember all your "tennis ball machine" jokes?). Neither of those things supported a pass-heavy Siemian QB at the helm and supported a more athletic Colter taking more of the reps.

Sorry.

 

[Hungry Jack]

The differences between "good" and "bad" are much more vast in college than in the NFL, where the difference between a good oline and bad are often incremental (but significant in terms of schemes).

Point being, pretty tough for TS to throw downfield in college when his line could not give him 3-4 seconds to make his read and throw unimpeded.

 

[phatcat]

Really?

How did the Colter-led O do in crunch time (OT) against UM in 2012 and Iowa in 2013?

Couldn't even get a 1st down.

Btw, it was Siemian who threw the go-ahead TD and the Colter-led O couldn't gain another 1st down to run out the clock (did gain one 1st down, but just barely getting it on 4th and 1).

I was messin w ecat

 

[EvanstonCat]

Think that might have had something to do with throwing to two guys with seven Pro Bowls combined in Emmanuel Sanders (9 catches for 117 yards and 2 TDs) and DeMaryius Thomas (6 catches for 100 yards and 1 TD) instead of the crew Trevor had in 2014 for his one year as full-time starter?

Look, I think Trevor has been a revelation for the Broncos and was extremely underrated for his time at Northwestern. I thought he had potential as a starting P5 QB and NFL prospect from the moment he got to campus. That said, the state of our OL and WR in 2012/2013 forced McCall to move away from his preferred scheme centered on a quick-hit ball-control passing game with occasional shots downfield to a ground-based option attack. Our OL flat-out sucked in pass protection, but was adequate in the run game. The WRs had admirable physical skills, but difficulty in consistently getting open and (most importantly) catching the ball with any consistency (remember all your "tennis ball machine" jokes?). Neither of those things supported a pass-heavy Siemian QB at the helm and supported a more athletic Colter taking more of the reps.

Sorry.

No need to be sorry.

Here's another reason why putting Colter in behind center and Siemian on the bench was a travesty. Had you split Colter wide out, then you would actually have had a fantastic playmaking athlete For Siemian to throw to. We failed to put in our best talent at two positions because of this mistake.

 

[hdhntr1]

Exactly on the point about the OL. Denver had a horrible OL. Siemian still had a solid performance. People act like we would have fallen apart had we no


Debunked by the fact that Siemian played behind an absolutely horrid OL at Denver and still won AFC Offensive Player of the Week

'This is about 5 years removed from the time you question. the fact that he is a pro level QB now does not mean he was then. It is called player development. Back then, he threw into the arms of defenders repeatedly and many balls that could have been pic-sixes were dropped but he got away with them. If he had been the starter and other teams were preparing for him 100%, would he have gotten away with those dangerous throws? He was the wrong QB to start back then, but he made for a heck of a change of pace that teams had a hard time preparing for.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

No need to be sorry.

Here's another reason why putting Colter in behind center and Siemian on the bench was a travesty. Had you split Colter wide out, then you would actually have had a fantastic playmaking athlete For Siemian to throw to. We failed to put in our best talent at two positions because of this mistake.

The guy who ran a 4.71 at his pro day and hasn't been able to do anything more in the pros besides a year on the Vikes' practice squad and a couple turns as a camp body?

 

[willycat]

The guy who ran a 4.71 at his pro day and hasn't been able to do anything more in the pros besides a year on the Vikes' practice squad and a couple turns as a camp body?

Come on, I know you know enough about FB to know that Colter would have been a pretty darn good WR in college and would have been a positive for the Wildcat offense.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Come on, I know you know enough about FB to know that Colter would have been a pretty darn good WR in college and would have been a positive for the Wildcat offense.

I've been saying for years that Colter had to play QB because of our OL and WR issues. NFL performance seems more important to ECat than college performance, so just using his logic.

 

[hdhntr1]

The guy who ran a 4.71 at his pro day and hasn't been able to do anything more in the pros besides a year on the Vikes' practice squad and a couple turns as a camp body?

Don't forget that when they tried that, it was a surprise the first couple times and then teams adjusted and shut it down pretty much completely

 

[Katatonic]

In that year, Siemian was too much of a riverboat gambler. He threw a lot into the arms of defenders and was lucky enough to not have then picked off. He did nothave the mobility that Colter did and was needed behind our OL that year. He got his chances as time went on and when the O could be built more around him but then he had a hard time staying healthy. And if he had not gone to Denver, he likely would not have had the chance to start

Which year are you taking about?

If you are talking about 2012, Siemian had just 3 INTs in 218 pass attempts - and that's primarily coming in cold on 3rd and long situations or late in a half or in the 4th quarter when the 'Cats needed a quick score (and opposing defenses knowing that, would be going after the QB).

Oh, and remember what happened when KC went down in2013? We went through a 6 game losing streak with Siemian as QB for much of it.

You mean the 2013 season where the 'Cats were inundated by injuries?

Including losing their #1 threat at WR and their star RB/returner (who was more instrumental to the success of the 2012 season than anyone else) with the O-line being a complete mess.

Yeah, let's blame Siemian for the whipping at the hands of Wisky, and not the fact that the Wisky D-linemen stated that they were tipped off on plays by the NU O-line.

And Siemian didn't play in the loss to Iowa and didn't play much in the following week's loss to Nebby.

Where's the winning that KC was supposed to bring?

The only B1G win that season was when Siemian had to bear the brunt of putting the O on his shoulders and beat the Pumpkinheads in a shoot-out - 37-34 (and that was against a Pumpkinhead D that was better in pass D than run D, but yet managed to stuff the NU rushing attack - which wasn't that surprising as it was the case all season after Mark was finished for the season).

And in the following week's loss to UM (in triple OT), the 'Cats only managed to score 9 pts in regulation, but it was Siemian who brought the 'Cats into FG range for 2 of the drives (on the other, Siemian and Colter split the reps which brought the 'Cats into FG range).

On one of those drives which ended in a FG, Siemian brought the O to the 8 yd line of UM, whereupon the coaches made the switch to KC.

The O couldn't do much and when it was 4th and 5, Budzien ended up kicking the 22 yd FG.

This is correct. With even an average OL, the right call would have been to start Siemian and use Colter as a WR and perhaps as a situational QB. But with the OL we had at the time, the O was going to be more productive overall with Colter as the primary QB. It was not preferable and was purely a Band-Aid for our OL situation. And I say this as a HUGE Siemian fan.

It's a fallacy to say that the O was more productive with Colter.

Also, it's not like the O-line was any better in 2014, but 'Cats still managed to beat PSU, UW and ND - and really should've beaten UM as well, if not for the horrible game-planning and wrong decision at the end.

W/o Siemian, the 'Cats would have lost all of those games.

McCall finally awoke from his slumber (in the 4th Q of the UM game) and realized that Siemian was a pretty decent scrambler and could (1) evade the pass rush and (2) buy time for his (slow) receivers to get open.

The ND game was the one that perked Kubiak's interest in Siemian - seeing that Siemian had the arm to throw accurately in the windy conditions and was mobile enough to make plays with his legs.

In the Kubiak system, a QB has to be mobile enough to roll out and run the bootleg.

As I have stated before, McCall did not use Siemian to the best of his ability (until very late).

The differences between "good" and "bad" are much more vast in college than in the NFL, where the difference between a good oline and bad are often incremental (but significant in terms of schemes).

Point being, pretty tough for TS to throw downfield in college when his line could not give him 3-4 seconds to make his read and throw unimpeded.

The Broncos O-line was just bad last season, barely giving either QB time to throw or opening holes for the run game (hence all the failures to convert a 1st down on 3rd and 1).

Numerous times, the Broncos O-line got beat by a 3-man rush, including in the 1st Chargers game which resulted in a safety.

Think that might have had something to do with throwing to two guys with seven Pro Bowls combined in Emmanuel Sanders (9 catches for 117 yards and 2 TDs) and DeMaryius Thomas (6 catches for 100 yards and 1 TD) instead of the crew Trevor had in 2014 for his one year as full-time starter?

That had some to do with it, but at the same time, opposing defensive coaches would just drop their safeties back as they had to little to fear from the Broncos run game or from the Broncos TEs or 3rd/slot receiver.

Also, DT was playing thru a hip injury, so he wasn't able to run at full speed.

Look, I think Trevor has been a revelation for the Broncos and was extremely underrated for his time at Northwestern. I thought he had potential as a starting P5 QB and NFL prospect from the moment he got to campus. That said, the state of our OL and WR in 2012/2013 forced McCall to move away from his preferred scheme centered on a quick-hit ball-control passing game with occasional shots downfield to a ground-based option attack. Our OL flat-out sucked in pass protection, but was adequate in the run game. The WRs had admirable physical skills, but difficulty in consistently getting open and (most importantly) catching the ball with any consistency (remember all your "tennis ball machine" jokes?). Neither of those things supported a pass-heavy Siemian QB at the helm and supported a more athletic Colter taking more of the reps.

Well, it seemed to work well enough in the 4th Q of the MOON game and against ND.

And even with a hobbled Siemian in the PSU and UW games that same season.

And the 'Cats put up 44 and 48 pts against Cal and the 'Cuse to start the 2013 season.

As well as 30 pts against dOSU (where arguably, Siemian outplayed KC) and 37 pts against UI to end the season.

 

[Deeringfish]

If Colter hadn't led the union thing we wouldn't even having this discussion. It polarized the board for and against him and very few of us regard him as we would if he had simply put in his time in an interesting offense that had mixed success.

Just let it go.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

It's 2017, this debate has seen its course.

 

[NJCat]

It's 2017, this debate has seen its course.

As it had in 2016, 2015 and 2014.......

 

[hdhntr1]

Which year are you taking about?

If you are talking about 2012, Siemian had just 3 INTs in 218 pass attempts - and that's primarily coming in cold on 3rd and long situations or late in a half or in the 4th quarter when the 'Cats needed a quick score (and opposing defenses knowing that, would be going after the QB).




You mean the 2013 season where the 'Cats were inundated by injuries?

Including losing their #1 threat at WR and their star RB/returner (who was more instrumental to the success of the 2012 season than anyone else) with the O-line being a complete mess.

Yeah, let's blame Siemian for the whipping at the hands of Wisky, and not the fact that the Wisky D-linemen stated that they were tipped off on plays by the NU O-line.

And Siemian didn't play in the loss to Iowa and didn't play much in the following week's loss to Nebby.

Where's the winning that KC was supposed to bring?

The only B1G win that season was when Siemian had to bear the brunt of putting the O on his shoulders and beat the Pumpkinheads in a shoot-out - 37-34 (and that was against a Pumpkinhead D that was better in pass D than run D, but yet managed to stuff the NU rushing attack - which wasn't that surprising as it was the case all season after Mark was finished for the season).

And in the following week's loss to UM (in triple OT), the 'Cats only managed to score 9 pts in regulation, but it was Siemian who brought the 'Cats into FG range for 2 of the drives (on the other, Siemian and Colter split the reps which brought the 'Cats into FG range).

On one of those drives which ended in a FG, Siemian brought the O to the 8 yd line of UM, whereupon the coaches made the switch to KC.

The O couldn't do much and when it was 4th and 5, Budzien ended up kicking the 22 yd FG.




It's a fallacy to say that the O was more productive with Colter.

Also, it's not like the O-line was any better in 2014, but 'Cats still managed to beat PSU, UW and ND - and really should've beaten UM as well, if not for the horrible game-planning and wrong decision at the end.

W/o Siemian, the 'Cats would have lost all of those games.

McCall finally awoke from his slumber (in the 4th Q of the UM game) and realized that Siemian was a pretty decent scrambler and could (1) evade the pass rush and (2) buy time for his (slow) receivers to get open.

The ND game was the one that perked Kubiak's interest in Siemian - seeing that Siemian had the arm to throw accurately in the windy conditions and was mobile enough to make plays with his legs.

In the Kubiak system, a QB has to be mobile enough to roll out and run the bootleg.

As I have stated before, McCall did not use Siemian to the best of his ability (until very late).




The Broncos O-line was just bad last season, barely giving either QB time to throw or opening holes for the run game (hence all the failures to convert a 1st down on 3rd and 1).

Numerous times, the Broncos O-line got beat by a 3-man rush, including in the 1st Chargers game which resulted in a safety.




That had some to do with it, but at the same time, opposing defensive coaches would just drop their safeties back as they had to little to fear from the Broncos run game or from the Broncos TEs or 3rd/slot receiver.

Also, DT was playing thru a hip injury, so he wasn't able to run at full speed.




Well, it seemed to work well enough in the 4th Q of the MOON game and against ND.

And even with a hobbled Siemian in the PSU and UW games that same season.

And the 'Cats put up 44 and 48 pts against Cal and the 'Cuse to start the 2013 season.

As well as 30 pts against dOSU (where arguably, Siemian outplayed KC) and 37 pts against UI to end the season.

As I said, many times he threw directly into the defenders hands and balls were just dropped. And I can remember that several of those drops were set up for pick sixes. He threw a lot of very dangerous passes and got away with them. I attribute quite a bit of that to the fact that the opponents were primarily preparing for KC and not for him.. And we are not talking 2014, we are talking 2012. In 2012, he was great in the change of pace role, but he would have been the wrong choice for the starter.

You also seem to be forgetting the 894 yds rushing and 12 tds that KC scored and how many of VMs 12 were on the read option that KC ran to perfection. And even though TS threw for more yds and had more completions, KC still had more TD passes.

 

[klemman]

Just the opinion of an outsider, but it would be a good idea to develop more of a pro style offense for NU. While getting athletes which the Wildcats are doing more and more is always beneficial, it would be tough with programs such as yours to "out athlete" some other programs.

Like the spread in the 90's put NU back in the football landscape because teams weren't prepared to handle it, with all the spread variations out there, the standard pro-set becomes the offense that teams only see a couple times a year if that. The good thing to is that pro-set QBs and offensive lineman who are good in the passing game tend to be some of the more intelligent players on the field because of the complexity required. Not always,but often enough.

 

[willycat]

If Colter hadn't led the union thing we wouldn't even having this discussion. It polarized the board for and against him and very few of us regard him as we would if he had simply put in his time in an interesting offense that had mixed success.

Just let it go.

Don't think the "union thing" should have anything to do with this discussion. It jst m down to Siemian has proven to be a very good QB, when healthy and Colter was a better WR/runner he was a QB.

 

[hdhntr1]

Just the opinion of an outsider, but it would be a good idea to develop more of a pro style offense for NU. While getting athletes which the Wildcats are doing more and more is always beneficial, it would be tough with programs such as yours to "out athlete" some other programs.

Like the spread in the 90's put NU back in the football landscape because teams weren't prepared to handle it, with all the spread variations out there, the standard pro-set becomes the offense that teams only see a couple times a year if that. The good thing to is that pro-set QBs and offensive lineman who are good in the passing game tend to be some of the more intelligent players on the field because of the complexity required. Not always,but often enough.

The whole purpose with the spread is to enable less athletic teams to be able to compete. Going to a more pro style would tend to mean needing to have across the board better athletes. Especially on the OL. It wasn't just that it was a surprise, but also with a more mobile QB, giving the D an additional person they had to account for. Not sure the landscape has changed enough that a team with less talent can compete with a pro system, even with the surprise factor. One advantage of the pro style O is that kids would have less of an adjustment going to the pros and that might give a recruiting advantage.