Did anyone see if he was uniform or not? Assuming he is injured-- not that he would have made a difference tonight....
Scottie
- Thread starter mikewebb68
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Thought the same thing. Worried another doghouse or, even worse, has given up on time for Lindsey. I wonder if this will be the next Creaning out. Since we are playing with only twelve schollies for the foreseeable future, I guess CCC has to be careful.
I really hate to go this direction because I like the guy and what he has done on recruiting. But after Vasser, the handling of the guards, the Tre usage and the lack of sets in offense (coupled with the stand around and watch a guy take on the opponent routine), I'm starting to see flaws.
I'm less worried about CCC going elsewhere than whether he can coach O and handle player personnel decisions.
Ok, lay it on me. Just being honest - not a BC guy, just a critical observer.
Can almost guarantee he is not "Creaning" him. My goodness, where do you come up with this stuff?
1) I think you "wonder" and "guess" way to much.
2) There is no need to mention BC. Give it a try.
I think a critical discussion is warranted, but this isn't anywhere near the road I'd go down.
a) The "Creaning" discussion is BS. Kids leave. And don't make me discuss the road JV has taken. No need to bash the kid. Things simply happen and the idea that this is a regular thing has been laughably created by ... and we'll just leave it at that.
b) I don't understand how the guards have been poorly handled unless ...
c) ...You're talking about the minutes Tre gets. Listen, I DESPISE how much time Demps gets. I've hated his game this year - horrible shooting, bad on defense, incredibly poor decisions, poor ball handling. But who can you replace him with?
d) Maybe I can go along for this ride. But are you telling me there were no open shots tonight? If you want to tell me there is no inside game, maybe I could be talked into that also.
There's plenty to "talk about" CC's game, but I think you need to find the right road to get to your destination.
I am going to stir the hornet's nest again and I don't care. Its too early to make a call on CCC yet because he came in here with a cupboard mostly bare. The reason I supported moving on from BC was not because I was unhappy with his level of success. I was unhappy because it was apparent that his recruiting was starting to take a downward dip.
Look at the upperclassmen that are now around for CCC. Olah is a serviceable player, but we've waited and waited for him to turn the corner and consistently take charge with his size. He is too slow and timid to go to that next level. Demps is a role player on most D1 schools who did ok off the bench but clearly doesn't have the abilities to be the guy on this or any other team. It is what it is. Taphorn really isn't Power5 material and Lumpkin, while a good athelte, just isn't a Power5 basketball player. He kills us on the offensive end because his man can play 15 feet off of him. Before that, there was the perennially injured Jershon Cobb and one good year of Drew Crawford.
Basically, NU is a rebuilding project just to get back to NIT level. And once Law went down, forget it. He was our highest ranked recruit, our best athlete and our player most likely to step up to the next level. So, combine the weak talent left behind with an injury to your one key guy and you get a pretty lousy team. It stayed hidden for much of the year due to the abysmal schedule, but now we are seeing who they really are.
Look at the upperclassmen that are now around for CCC. Olah is a serviceable player, but we've waited and waited for him to turn the corner and consistently take charge with his size. He is too slow and timid to go to that next level. Demps is a role player on most D1 schools who did ok off the bench but clearly doesn't have the abilities to be the guy on this or any other team. It is what it is. Taphorn really isn't Power5 material and Lumpkin, while a good athelte, just isn't a Power5 basketball player. He kills us on the offensive end because his man can play 15 feet off of him. Before that, there was the perennially injured Jershon Cobb and one good year of Drew Crawford.
Basically, NU is a rebuilding project just to get back to NIT level. And once Law went down, forget it. He was our highest ranked recruit, our best athlete and our player most likely to step up to the next level. So, combine the weak talent left behind with an injury to your one key guy and you get a pretty lousy team. It stayed hidden for much of the year due to the abysmal schedule, but now we are seeing who they really are.
Dude, this is year 3. The cupboard is bare argument is no longer valid. Ideally, each year should build on the previous one, with year 4 or 5 being the culmination. The team has regressed this year and will most likely not be playing in the post season. Not good.
How has matching last year's win total already regressing? I understand there have been some ugly B1G performances, but this has been a pretty tough stretch of the schedule.
Lumpkin may not be a good or great offensive weapon but he is the best defender on the team and I do not think it is even close. He also rebounds pretty well and hustles his tail off at every second he is on the court. He made a few plays in yesterdays game that kept the offensive possession alive but NU just flat out could not hit shots. You can not really blame anyone for Jershon Cobbs injuries. Crawford only one good year? Are you kidding me?! I mean maybe a guy with 140+ starts would have more then one could year. I mean if you want to see some of accolades here is a link http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/drew-crawford-1.html
I also have to ask where is Olah currently placed on Northwesterns all time block list? Also I realize demps is having a terrible year offensively but last year he hit a lot of clutch shots and was a pretty good scorer. I am extremely high on CC he has brought in lots of talent but the he did have at least serviceable talent when he got he did not have much depth but as you can see that is steadily improving and at the current trend of NU hoops I have no worries. If next year NU hits another long cold shooting spell then I will have some.
Focus on the Big 10 results. Collins admittedly made up a MUCH easier OOC schedule this season. Right now, it might be tough to match the 6 Big 10 wins NU got last season, with Olah "playing on a broken foot", the team as a whole unable to make shots, and without a Big 10-capable back-up guard. Right now I think @Iowa, Illinois, @OSU, @PSU, @Purdue and @ Michigan are losses. Which would put NU at another 6 win season, assuming they can beat a revived Minny team in the rematch, Rutgers and an improved Nebraska team at WRA, which has been pretty much a House of Horrors this Big 10 season. Not much progress record wise.
This is completely incorrect. I chastised Willy for saying Collins needed a roster with his recruits -- four years -- and realize today from watching this year's conference games that he was right and I was wrong.
This roster has two years of Collins' recruits and the first year was truncated. The underclassmen (the best of whom is sitting out) are clearly superior athletes and more skilled players. If you can't see the stark difference you can't be helped along with a written explanation.
I really don't like the player by player critiques of our student athletes. But the talent has improved and will continue to improve. When the '17 - '18 season concludes Collins will have finished a year with all of his recruits. My guess is that everyone will be a lot happier at that time.
I agree. Penn State is really the only one they lost that they should have won. Three of these last four games have been brutal to watch, but they also had a great effort at Maryland.
Collins is happy with the team's offensive execution. They're getting open shots; they're just not making them. There's only so much you can do when you shoot 12 for 58. Think about that -- they made 12 shots all night. MSU hit more 3s (16) than NU did total shots. At least the Cats hit their free throws last night (17 of 19).
Defensively, I thought they did a pretty good job until the frustration of missing shot after shot after shot on the offensive turned the game into a blowout and bled into their defensive effort. They guarded well in the first half and came up with quite a few steals, but it always seemed like Valentine was there to hit a 3 with the shot clock winding down. That guy hit a couple miraculous shots to beat a buzzer -- the 26 or so footer, and another with BMac draped all over him.
The one thing I was disappointed in was Collins' unwillingness to try something different last night. I get the Lindsey benching -- he must've done something to earn that. But Skelly and JVZ hardly played (combined eight minutes), and I'd still like to see more Pardon, who played 19. Try a two-big lineup, maybe -- they were getting killed on the boards. Or try to trap Valetine to get the ball out of his hands. Would it have mattered? Probably not. But they had nothing to lose.
I think CC is trying to light a fire under Scottie. I hope it works.
I totally agree with The C, the issue is that Olah does not have the lateral quickness or jumping ability to consistently contribute against top half of the Big 10 talent. Demps is not having a good year and is best used as a 6th man until he finds his stroke but since Lindsey has not shown he can handle the starting SG position. Taphorn is not a Big 10 (power conference player) and Lumpkin allows other team's to clog the middle because he is not a power conference player. These are all prior coach's players and result from his failure to recruit athletically talented players.
Let's look at last night from MSU perspective:
This game is another game where Vic Law's athleticism is sorely missed. His length could have given Valentine some problems who is projected to be the no. 30 pick in the NBA draft. No, Turk your yelling did not cause Valentine to have a great game. The fact that no one on our perimeter can cause him issues on his three point shot was more of a cause that he could confidently fire up shots and he beat Kansas almost singlehandedly doing the same thing.
The other issue is that Izzo pulled 5-star PF Deyonta Davis off his bench and grabbed 11 Rebs. and had 6 blocks and 8 points and can float around the base of our zone and dunk misses. He is only projected to be the no. 16 pick in the upcoming draft. That is the level of difference in talent between NU and MSU right now.
Bottom line: sustained success in the Big 10 is about acquiring the best talent and with CC we have a shot to recruit much more talented players than the prior regime's coach.
I totally agree with The C, the issue is that Olah does not have the lateral quickness or jumping ability to consistently contribute against top half of the Big 10 talent. Demps is not having a good year and is best used as a 6th man until he finds his stroke but since Lindsey has not shown he can handle the starting SG position. Taphorn is not a Big 10 (power conference player) and Lumpkin allows other team's to clog the middle because he is not a power conference player. These are all prior coach's players and result from his failure to recruit athletically talented players.
Let's look at last night from MSU perspective:
This game is another game where Vic Law's athleticism is sorely missed. His length could have given Valentine some problems who is projected to be the no. 30 pick in the NBA draft. No, Turk your yelling did not cause Valentine to have a great game. The fact that no one on our perimeter can cause him issues on his three point shot was more of a cause that he could confidently fire up shots and he beat Kansas almost singlehandedly doing the same thing.
The other issue is that Izzo pulled 5-star PF Deyonta Davis off his bench and grabbed 11 Rebs. and had 6 blocks and 8 points and can float around the base of our zone and dunk misses. He is only projected to be the no. 16 pick in the upcoming draft. That is the level of difference in talent between NU and MSU right now.
Bottom line: sustained success in the Big 10 is about acquiring the best talent and with CC we have a shot to recruit much more talented players than the prior regime's coach.
What do you call Vasser, Abrahmson, Turner, Ajou? And how do you define Creaning - a term we have thrown around on this board for awhile?
Thank you for the rational response. The fools on this Board grow increasingly frustrated. So much purple koolaid, you would think at least one of them would OD.
OK, let's back up.
1. Do you, or have you, used the term 'Creaning?' If so, what does it mean to you. For me, it's getting rid of former regime players by telling them, outside the public eye, that they need to move along as they will see no PT here. I believe this happened to Vasser, Ajou, Abrahamson and Turner. I'm not sure whether the practice is good in general. For some, it works out fine - Abarhamson is a fine example. For others...it doesn't. JV managed to turn it on NU when they failed to take steps to secure the schollie and JV backed out. But whatever - let's start with the definition of 'Creaning?'
2. I do think the staff had plenty of time to plan for the need of another guard. I also believe the Vasser schollie was mismanaged. Once it became too late, I feel Vasser should have been brought back and if he refused, the schollie becomes free. I highly doubt he would tank on purpose - it's my opinion. Therefore, I think the failure to have a backup PG falls squarely on the CCC administration. Beginning to present.
3. And, yes, the Tre thing has been a nightmare. I cannot see it being worse running out Ash and Lindsey for heavier minutes over the past 4 games or so. Is there a way a loss can count than more than a single loss? Running Ash and Lindsey gives them experience, tells that staff what they have in these guys and relieves the PT on Mac and Tre. So I feel it was mismanaged.
4. Last night, for the first time and reading other comments on the board, I started watching the action off the ball. There is way too much standing around. I saw little off ball screens. No kickouts from the paint. But tons of 1 on 4 and 5 action. If that is a called play - it sucks. If it is not, then is there a reason? In low level hoops, we had plenty of movement away from the ball. What happened to passing?
Yes, Tre missed a bunch of open shots. Olah missed bunnies. Mac has finally cooled considerably. But, no, I did not think there was an abundance of missed, high percentage open looks.
Agree on most points except I think Lumpkin and Tap are service B1G role players. Still, why don't we see more of CCC's recruits on the floor? Why do they continue to ride the pine?
And how about some sets? Work up to a missed shot, fine. But run down, pass until Tre gets and dribbles into a bad shot or Mac dribbles until there is no time left. That is not an offense.
Because they matched it by playing cupcakes. Let's weight until they surpass 5 wins in the B1G before making this argument. You, me, my sister, her friend and my mom could rack up a bunch of wins against kindergartners. That is basically what NU has accomplished with a small number of exceptions.
I think we're getting off the track a little but, OK, I'll play along.
1) I've never used the term as a label for CC or anybody else. There is turnover in EVERY program when there is a coaching change. So to say you "over-recruit" as some poor coaching morality in the first year or two of your tenure is laughable - especially when you bounce guys who aren't playing ANYWHERE in any of the 347 D1 programs two years later. There's obviously more problems than simply the coach.
Lastly, nobody is forcing the kid out the door. Show some cajones, show up to practice the next year and show the coach you have some backbone.
The only one of these players I MIGHT go along with the label is Abrahamson. And you have a hard time convincing me he was treated unfairly when he played 16 mins per game in Collins' first year.
2) Let's assume I agree the staff had plenty of time to find another guard. They obviously made the choice between a back-up center and another guard.
My problem here is that I'm not a big Olah fan, so I don't blame them at all for wanting some insurance. And in hindsight, I'd argue they needed it almost as much as they needed a guard.
Does the back-up 5th year guard make a whole bunch of difference to the record, compared to if they don't have JVZ?
I think they were damned if they did and damned if they don't, but I don't think your point is off the wall.
3) I think we're coming to that point where you run Ash out there. But I don't think you can say "we give up on the season." Still too early for that.
As for Lindsey, he's a mystery to me. As I've said, if you play him 25 mins, I think he's foul out. You just can't have that.
4) I don't disagree with you about movement off the ball or sharp quick passes. Like Carmody, I'm concerned this offense relies waaaaaaaaay too much on the 3. I don't think that's consistent winning basketball.
OTOH, as I've said, I'm not much of a believer in Olah. There's absolutely no post game when he's in there, and he clogs the lane. However, we've seen some signs of an interior game when Pardon is in there. So I'm wondering if the lack of an inside/higher-percentage game is not so much the offense as it is the players running it. Trust me: I don't have that answer for now.
Underclassmen
Falzon - 35
Mac - 31
Pardon - 19
Ash - 14
Skelly - 5
Not
Tre - 29
Lumpkin - 27
Olah - 19
Tap - 18
JvZ - 3
Avg Overall - 20
Avg Underclass - 20.8
Avg Rest 19.2
Not much of a difference. If you consider Lindsey, the underclassmen averaged 17.3. Falzon played the most and put up the second most points, second most rebounds, second most assists, no turnovers. Tre put up the most minutes of the upperclassmen while managing 4 points despite 14 attempts, pulled in four boards and matched his assists to his turnovers. The next upperclassmen offer 3 measley points with 3 boards and turnover. The giant in the middle (upperclassman) contributed 4 points and one big rebound (no blocks but a steal matched with a turnover).
So, again, if the underclassmen are so good, and clearly the upperclassmen are not earning their minutes with performance, then why are they not on the floor more?
First I'd like to say that no guys were run off the team. Ajou, Turner and quite possibly Vassar realized that they didn't have the talent to play Big 5 basketball and somewhat moved on. The reason that the staff probably went after a back-up C. was because they were counting on Law at the 2 and it still seems like a wise move. Agree it's time to give Pardon the majority of the minutes at the 5 and also give Ash most of the minutes when Demps sits. Lindsey is a real mystery, especially after the glowing reports we got about him on the European trip. Maybe he might going the way of Ajou and Turner. Agree that this team and past teams rely way to much on the 3 point shot but when Olah is at center very little happens offensively. Hopefully the three kids coming aboard next season will help the offense and the additional schlorship finally opens up and a outside shooter is brought in, either 5th year or otherwise.
I will say this.... if CCC fails after say 5 or 6 years to make the tourney, then I think we just give the whole thing up. NU has tried every type of coach to turn this pumpkin into a carriage and none of them have made it. Short of maybe someone like Tom Izzo or Coach K saying they want to give the NU challenge a go, I can't envision what's left to try to take this program with historical ineptitude and third-rate infrastructure to the promised land.
On the first point, who knows. Everything is conjecture on why Abrahamson, Ajou and Vasser chose to transfer. But the handling of the Vasser schollie cannot be overlooked. Either Vasser or his schollie should be on this team. So, in #2, if you assume they had enough time, then a choice between a 1 and a 5 wasn't necessary. This is the first real blunder I blame on the CCC administration. That schollie needs to be present one way or another. (And I think that it will be missing next year - and I wonder if the pollyannas will continue to defend it or try hard to ignore it...)
We agree on Lindsey - definitely a mystery, especially after Europe. But run him 25 and let him foul out. He sat on the bench all night with zero fouls. I don't recall him fouling out yet, but definitely playing few minutes...in losing causes. His unavailability would have no bearing. But he has a red-shirt available and after this year, given proper time for evaluation, would be a great time to encourage him to move along if it doesn't work out.
We have a growing problem at G. Assume Lindsey isn't the answer. And we don't know if Ash is a B1G player. We don't know if Law can handle the ball well enough to be a G in the B1G. And we have one incoming true freshman PG. We really need to know the answer about Lindsey (and maybe Ash) now - and get that schollie for a 5th year backup guard next year. Or we face deja vu all over again.
Well the source would be eyes that watched these kids play. I also talked with a friend of the family of one of these guys and he said that player only wanted to play a certain position that he was obviously not able to handle. Do you actually think that any of the above are Big ten caliber players?
The underclassmen are earning their minutes. At key points when the game was still in doubt BMac, Pardon and Falzon were on the floor at the same time.
Contrast that with a team like Iowa which has six or seven underclassmen. None start and none break the top five in minutes per game.
I could be wrong but my sense is that your opinion is that Collins has not done well with recruiting. If you countered the minutes argument with "Collins is playing his guys" over the guys he inherited you'd have a stronger argument. If Law was healthy he'd be getting 30 minutes a game and the disparity would be greater.
The underclassmen are much better athletes and more skilled than the upperclassmen. I am a long-time defender of Tre and Olah -- since their first games at NU -- and I'm not changing my tune. The upperclassmen are good players. But it's clear that for the most part, the players Collins is bringing in are a standard deviation better.
Irrelevant. If they had a schollie and wanted the NU education then it doesn't matter -- unless they are asked to leave. We have seen many of scholarships ride the pine and now we have one walking around campus.
So, I don't think it is a fair assumption to believe that they were not asked to move along as they did not fit the plan.
Even though I disagree with several parts of it, this is a very reasonable post (as opposed to TheC's silly venting. Is he actually calling for shuttering the program if CCC can't get it done in the next 2 1/2 years? That's insipid.) Collins' recruiting has resulted in several more highly ranked classes and recruits than Carmody and Hardy were getting. To put a finer point on things...Collins is bringing in guys who fit the style he wants to play much better as well. But, to crap on Tre, Olah (with a broken foot), Tap, etc. because they don't dominate on CCC's team in year three of his reign is pretty lame. That's the same Tre that many of the same people lauded last year and proclaimed as the truth coming into the season. Heck, BMac was terrible yesterday, too, but that doesn't mean that BMac is a problem for this team. It's up to CCC to figure out to mix the pieces he has at his disposal. The cupboard was far from bare when CCC took over, but it takes time to get the players a coach needs to fit his system and to get that system installed. We won't really be able to evaluate the job CCC has done for another season or two (and maybe even a little beyond that.) I'm confident that he'll continue to make progress.
Are you talking about the Iowa ranked #3? I think it's pretty clear why those underclassmen are not getting PT. Not a problem here.
I think CCC has been a far better recruiter. I'm growing concerned about his coaching and decisions. Tre has lost his playmaking skills and Olah is broken. I think CCC should be playing his guys more.
Did Olah have like 19 points in 20 minutes in the Indiana game? Didn't know that a player that was broken could do that. Perhaps we might want to reserve judgement until after only 2 games in which he played significant minutes following a broken foot (one in which he played amazingly well., and one in which he was not alone in playing poorly).
As for Tre losing his playmaking skills, would is surprise you to learn that he is averaging 1.2 points per game MORE this year than last year? And that Tre's 3 best BIG games were in the second half of the regular season last year? He is clearly struggling with his shot, but I wouldn't count him-- or this team-- out just yet.
Honestly, I have never been overly impressed with Tre. I think he had a great clutch shot, scored a lot of points on way too many shots but has been a black hole with the ball and liability on D. But his points and clutch shot made it palatable. Talk to me about his FG% or assist turnover ratio compared to last year. Now he lost his shot, he is our one and out machine (really wish we had the +\- stats) and should be returned to 6th man duties at the least.
It's like football all over again with you. This season is great. So what another year with no NCAA, who cares no post season. The kids played their little hearts out so let's hand out participation trophies. The level of apathy on this board is ridiculous for 'sports' fans. I could understand the average NU student unmoved by athletics not caring about winning, but why the heck are you wasting your time following sports and a sports board? Surely you have a journal to read or comicon to attend.
FWIW, while Tre's FG% is down 5%, his assist to turnover ratio is significantly improved. He is averaging about .75 more assists per game while averaging .25 fewer turnovers. The result is an assist to turnover ratio of 2.74 this year as opposed to 1.79 last year. Rebounds and steals are up a tick, too, in addition to his scoring a point and a half more a game. Our problems extend much further than Tre's shooting and playmaking.
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