Starters Minutes

[Jonny2TheP]

Chris Collins is great and we are lucky to have him. He has somehow turned us into a consistent program that makes the NCAA tournament and recruits well. So this isn't about how great I think he is...

But if I have one gripe about him it's how much he leans on his starters. Since he's been back, Barnhizer hasn't played less than 37 minutes in any of the seven games he's played in. And outside of the opening game against Lehigh, Martinelli hasn't played less than 34 minutes. Yesterday, we were up by 20 with four minutes left and he left those two in there after the under 4 timeout. Brooks didn't come out until the last 40 seconds.

I know that guys like Windham and Angelo are young and still inconsistent, but he's got to find a way to get more rest for our starters. Just a few minutes here and there. And if we're up by more than 15 with under 4 to play, play some of the younger guys and let Brooks and Nick rest.

It's the one area with Collins that frustrates me some. But he's been pretty consistent with it throughout his tenure, so I don't see it changing. There are a variety of reasons (rest for starters, experience for young players, etc.) it would be beneficial though.

 

[UpsetAlert]

Chris Collins is great and we are lucky to have him. He has somehow turned us into a consistent program that makes the NCAA tournament and recruits well. So this isn't about how great I think he is...

But if I have one gripe about him it's how much he leans on his starters. Since he's been back, Barnhizer hasn't played less than 37 minutes in any of the seven games he's played in. And outside of the opening game against Lehigh, Martinelli hasn't played less than 34 minutes. Yesterday, we were up by 20 with four minutes left and he left those two in there after the under 4 timeout. Brooks didn't come out until the last 40 seconds.

I know that guys like Wyndham and Angelo are young and still inconsistent, but he's got to find a way to get more rest for our starters. Just a few minutes here and there. And if we're up by more than 15 with under 4 to play, play some of the younger guys and let Brooks and Nick rest.

It's the one area with Collins that frustrates me some. But he's been pretty consistent with it throughout his tenure, so I don't see it changing. There are a variety of reasons (rest for starters, experience for young players, etc.) it would be beneficial though.

They had 2 games in like 14 days. Players need reps especially on offense. Relax.

 

[TheC]

Chris Collins is great and we are lucky to have him. He has somehow turned us into a consistent program that makes the NCAA tournament and recruits well. So this isn't about how great I think he is...

But if I have one gripe about him it's how much he leans on his starters. Since he's been back, Barnhizer hasn't played less than 37 minutes in any of the seven games he's played in. And outside of the opening game against Lehigh, Martinelli hasn't played less than 34 minutes. Yesterday, we were up by 20 with four minutes left and he left those two in there after the under 4 timeout. Brooks didn't come out until the last 40 seconds.

I know that guys like Wyndham and Angelo are young and still inconsistent, but he's got to find a way to get more rest for our starters. Just a few minutes here and there. And if we're up by more than 15 with under 4 to play, play some of the younger guys and let Brooks and Nick rest.

It's the one area with Collins that frustrates me some. But he's been pretty consistent with it throughout his tenure, so I don't see it changing. There are a variety of reasons (rest for starters, experience for young players, etc.) it would be beneficial though.

He may deny it but he knew Brooks needed one more rebound to keep his double double streak alive.

 

[Jonny2TheP]

They had 2 games in like 14 days. Players need reps especially on offense. Relax.

"Relax" he says. I couldn't be more calm. It's one small gripe I am addressing, and this is not a trend of the last few weeks; I just used that as the example since it is most relevant to this season. This is something that has been going on for many years. And again, I get it, these guys are young, they want to play, they're competitors, and on and on. But getting garbage time reps at the end of a game that is already out of reach? You don't think that is more beneficial to young players who we may need to call on during conference play if/when injuries arise over guys that have been in the program for 3-5 years? Come on.

It's fine. I'm happy with where we are at right now and the way we are playing heading into conference play. It's just one area where I wish Collins would improve some. He has consistently leaned very heavily on his starters throughout his tenure, and I think giving starters a little more rest and giving backups a little more experience has benefits.

 

[Jonny2TheP]

He may deny it but he knew Brooks needed one more rebound to keep his double double streak alive.

Yep, I'm pretty sure this is true. It's a great accomplishment considering he's the first to do that in at least 28 years. Really impressive. Not sure if it's worth being in there late in a blowout, but I get it.

 

[SmellyCat]

The embarrassed smile on Brooks’ face when he came out seemed to imply he either knew it too or someone just told him.

 

[Hkjb]

Have to wonder if part of the heavy starters' minutes is just about getting this year's team to gel. We're going from having a dominant floor general to not having one. And Leach is new to the team. They don't have a lot of time to get comfy with each other before we're in the thick of conference play.

From this perspective, the heavy starter's minutes make a lot of sense.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Yep, I'm pretty sure this is true. It's a great accomplishment considering he's the first to do that in at least 28 years. Really impressive. Not sure if it's worth being in there late in a blowout, but I get it.

As soon as Barnhizer got that 10th rebound, Collins removed him in a "rolling timeout." (somewhat like a hockey line change)
Barnhizer was smiling from ear to ear.... So they knew.

But the original point Jonny2TheP made has been made before - and it is valid, in my opinion. Collins is only partly to blame.
The NCAA's heavy reliance on scoring metrics (when it selects and seeds the NCAA tournament) rewards coaches for running up the score. Thats just a fact - so I have softened my own stance against Collins' late game bench management, which is easy to otherwise find fault with.

 

[cats_man_too]

"Relax" he says. I couldn't be more calm. It's one small gripe I am addressing, and this is not a trend of the last few weeks; I just used that as the example since it is most relevant to this season. This is something that has been going on for many years. And again, I get it, these guys are young, they want to play, they're competitors, and on and on. But getting garbage time reps at the end of a game that is already out of reach? You don't think that is more beneficial to young players who we may need to call on during conference play if/when injuries arise over guys that have been in the program for 3-5 years? Come on.

It's fine. I'm happy with where we are at right now and the way we are playing heading into conference play. It's just one area where I wish Collins would improve some. He has consistently leaned very heavily on his starters throughout his tenure, and I think giving starters a little more rest and giving backups a little more experience has benefits.

I also think in the era of NIL and rampant transfers, throwing minutes to freshmen keep them motivated and pacify those around them who are otherwise whispering ideas of greener grass elsewhere. I would love to see KJ and Gelo getting close to 10 minutes each game. They are key to sustaining the program trajectory.

 

[cedricmelons]

I would hate to see one of our starters get injured in garbage time. This happened with Julian Roper a couple of years ago.

 

[Max_Power]

I would hate to see one of our starters get injured in garbage time. This happened with Julian Roper a couple of years ago.

And he wasn't a starter at the time or if he was, it was due to a injury to a starter.

 

[Max_Power]

Chris Collins is great and we are lucky to have him. He has somehow turned us into a consistent program that makes the NCAA tournament and recruits well. So this isn't about how great I think he is...

But if I have one gripe about him it's how much he leans on his starters. Since he's been back, Barnhizer hasn't played less than 37 minutes in any of the seven games he's played in. And outside of the opening game against Lehigh, Martinelli hasn't played less than 34 minutes. Yesterday, we were up by 20 with four minutes left and he left those two in there after the under 4 timeout. Brooks didn't come out until the last 40 seconds.

I know that guys like Windham and Angelo are young and still inconsistent, but he's got to find a way to get more rest for our starters. Just a few minutes here and there. And if we're up by more than 15 with under 4 to play, play some of the younger guys and let Brooks and Nick rest.

It's the one area with Collins that frustrates me some. But he's been pretty consistent with it throughout his tenure, so I don't see it changing. There are a variety of reasons (rest for starters, experience for young players, etc.) it would be beneficial though.

I'll make a counter-argument. This is the last go for Barnhizer as a college athlete. There is no promise he will make it at the next level here or in Europe. This is even more the case for Berry, Nicholson and Leach. This is likely their last dance.

This team is likely to be a bubble team throughout the season. Every minute of every game is critical. Windham and Ciaravino will have their moments as this roster completely turns over next season but for now let the seniors leave it all on the floor. Its a 40 minute game with 6 TV timeouts plus half time. They can handle it.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

I would love to see KJ and Gelo getting close to 10 minutes each game. They are key to sustaining the program trajectory.

This is absolutely the conventional wisdom, but do they really need to play as first-years to sustain the program's trajectory? Nicholson, Martinelli and Brooks all barely played as freshmen, and they are stars today. Meanwhile, guys like Roper, Casey Simmons and Jordan Clayton all got plenty of time and are giving us nothing. Coach Collins has established that he will play the frosh on an as-needed basis, and, on the whole in recent years, his staff seems better at developing guys who do not play. At this point Coach gets the benefit of a thousand doubts from me. If he thinks KJ and Gelo are better playing one minute a game than 10, we should be good with that.

 

[NUCat320]

Chris Collins is great and we are lucky to have him. He has somehow turned us into a consistent program that makes the NCAA tournament and recruits well. So this isn't about how great I think he is...

But if I have one gripe about him it's how much he leans on his starters. Since he's been back, Barnhizer hasn't played less than 37 minutes in any of the seven games he's played in. And outside of the opening game against Lehigh, Martinelli hasn't played less than 34 minutes. Yesterday, we were up by 20 with four minutes left and he left those two in there after the under 4 timeout. Brooks didn't come out until the last 40 seconds.

I know that guys like Windham and Angelo are young and still inconsistent, but he's got to find a way to get more rest for our starters. Just a few minutes here and there. And if we're up by more than 15 with under 4 to play, play some of the younger guys and let Brooks and Nick rest.

It's the one area with Collins that frustrates me some. But he's been pretty consistent with it throughout his tenure, so I don't see it changing. There are a variety of reasons (rest for starters, experience for young players, etc.) it would be beneficial though.

Jonny, you are one of our best posters — possibly the only one who probably has opinions on the various eras of Sigur Ros — but you are very, very wrong!

“But if I have one gripe about him it’s how much he leans on his starters”, which is directly correlated to NU becoming a good team.

Collins’ biggest improvement as a coach has been his realization that the best way to win is to play his best players the most minutes. And, notably, where this shifted was specifically between the 21-22 (terrrrrible) and 22-23 seasons (the return to glory).

In 2022:
- 10 players saw at least 10 minutes per game and played at least 20 games
- 5 players played between 15 and 25 minutes per game
- 0 players played more than 30 minutes per game

2022 was the season where Collins rotation literally involved sitting Nance before the first under-16 timeout. It was infuriating.

In 2023:
- 9 players saw ten minutes per game (weirdly, Martinelli played exactly 20 games)
- 4 players played between 15 and 25 minutes
- 2 players saw 30+ minutes

In 2024:
- 8 players: 10 mpg / 20g*
- 1 player: 15-25 mpg
- 3 players: 30+ minutes

season does look weird because Clayton fell out of the rotation completely and Smith/Mullins roles changed

Season to date:
- 8 players: 10mpg
- 4 players: 15-25 mpg
- 3 players: 30+ minutes

Note that Windham is exactly at 15 minutes, and will definitely fall off within a few weeks

and perhaps most notably, 2016-2017
- 8 players: 10+ mpg
- 1 player: 15-25 mpg
- 4 players: 30+ minutes

What I’m saying here:
- leaning on your starters (i.e. 30+ minutes per game) is good!
- defining players as heavy minutes and as light minutes (i.e. limiting the 15-25 crew) and then playing the starters more is good!
- getting multiple guys many minutes is bad!


Now, Barnhizer does not need to be in there to get rebound number ten. Get starters out in a blowout.

But leaning on starters is what good coaches do. Developing not-ready-for-the-rotation talent in practice is what good coaches do. (Windham and Angelo will be ready next year, because they’re getting better in practice.)

For reference, last years UConn team:
- 8 players at 10 mpg
- 3 players between 15-25 mpg
- 3 players at 30+ mpg

(One note: 20+ game players is probably a better indicator of length of bench, without the 10 mpg threshold. But I realized that about 3 seasons into my basketball-reference analysis and don’t care to change.)

I’ll also say that talent has something to do with this. Some rosters make it easier to define starters and scrubs. This year’s roster is an example. (Late addendum: That said the 21-22 version of CCC would likely have Leach under 30 mins and would have Windham and Angelo on the court for 5-15 every night.)

The 21-22 team, which was bad, had many more ‘mid’ players.

But still, Beran started almost every game and got only 20ish minutes. Simmons started 7 games and got only 15ish minutes. Collins never decided whether Roper or Berry was better. Ryan Young got less run that he got the next year at Duke. Man, that was a disaster!

In conclusion, finally: Collins is a good coach because he plays his starters a lot. Northwestern is a winning program because Collins has learned to play his starters a lot.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

I'll make a counter-argument. This is the last go for Barnhizer as a college athlete. There is no promise he will make it at the next level here or in Europe. This is even more the case for Berry, Nicholson and Leach. This is likely their last dance.

This team is likely to be a bubble team throughout the season. Every minute of every game is critical. Windham and Ciaravino will have their moments as this roster completely turns over next season but for now let the seniors leave it all on the floor. Its a 40 minute game with 6 TV timeouts plus half time. They can handle it.

This is a great point bolstered by the fact that it's 9 TV timeouts, not six., first whistles under 16,12,8 & 4 minutes in each half, plus as we all know, "First called time out of the second half becomes a full time out on the floor."

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Every minute of every game is critical.

Thats not true. Which is why people look at the risk/reward when the minutes are not critical. Like yesterday.

I would have loved to see Fitzmorris in the game (instead of Hunger) for the last few minutes.

 

[NUCat320]

Unrelated, but the most interesting thing we’ve seen in baseball in the last ten years is the realization that traditional roles and tactics are silly.

A decade ago, your lineup was:
- fastest guy
- random guy who could maybe bunt
- best hitter
- hitter with the most home runs among the non-best
- next guy with the most home runs


All this meant was that fastest guy and random guy got more at bats than best hitter and most powerful hitter. We’ve realized that this is the wrong approach.

The other major change we’ve seen is eliminating ‘pitch off your fastball’ orthodoxy. Many more guys lean on a breaking ball, because it’s the one that the other guys can’t hit. Many more are one- or two-pitch pitchers. (There is a human constraint in this one, however, as many more arms are falling off. But arms don’t fall off in basketball, unless they’re Vedran Vukusic’s.)

 

[NUAlum2010]

I would hate to see one of our starters get injured in garbage time. This happened with Julian Roper a couple of years ago.

To the original point about NET and scoring margins, there's really no such thing as garbage time anymore... especially for a bubble type team. The absurdity of NET has made every margin matter.

NU moved into the top 50 in NET (currently 48) with the 25-point win yesterday. They probably would not have with a 10-point win.

 

[Jonny2TheP]

Jonny, you are one of our best posters — possibly the only one who probably has opinions on the various eras of Sigur Ros — but you are very, very wrong!

“But if I have one gripe about him it’s how much he leans on his starters”, which is directly correlated to NU becoming a good team.

Collins’ biggest improvement as a coach has been his realization that the best way to win is to play his best players the most minutes. And, notably, where this shifted was specifically between the 21-22 (terrrrrible) and 22-23 seasons (the return to glory).

In 2022:
- 10 players saw at least 10 minutes per game and played at least 20 games
- 5 players played between 15 and 25 minutes per game
- 0 players played more than 30 minutes per game

2022 was the season where Collins rotation literally involved sitting Nance before the first under-16 timeout. It was infuriating.

In 2023:
- 9 players saw ten minutes per game (weirdly, Martinelli played exactly 20 games)
- 4 players played between 15 and 25 minutes
- 2 players saw 30+ minutes

In 2024:
- 8 players: 10 mpg / 20g*
- 1 player: 15-25 mpg
- 3 players: 30+ minutes

season does look weird because Clayton fell out of the rotation completely and Smith/Mullins roles changed

Season to date:
- 8 players: 10mpg
- 4 players: 15-25 mpg
- 3 players: 30+ minutes

Note that Windham is exactly at 15 minutes, and will definitely fall off within a few weeks

and perhaps most notably, 2016-2017
- 8 players: 10+ mpg
- 1 player: 15-25 mpg
- 4 players: 30+ minutes

What I’m saying here:
- leaning on your starters (i.e. 30+ minutes per game) is good!
- defining players as heavy minutes and as light minutes (i.e. limiting the 15-25 crew) and then playing the starters more is good!
- getting multiple guys many minutes is bad!


Now, Barnhizer does not need to be in there to get rebound number ten. Get starters out in a blowout.

But leaning on starters is what good coaches do. Developing not-ready-for-the-rotation talent in practice is what good coaches do. (Windham and Angelo will be ready next year, because they’re getting better in practice.)

For reference, last years UConn team:
- 8 players at 10 mpg
- 3 players between 15-25 mpg
- 3 players at 20+ mpg

(One note: 20+ game players is probably a better indicator of length of bench, without the 10 mpg threshold. But I realized that about 3 seasons into my basketball-reference analysis and don’t care to change.)

I’ll also say that talent has something to do with this. Some rosters make it easier to define starters and scrubs. This year’s roster is an example.

The 21-22 team, which was bad, had many more ‘mid’ players.

But still, Beran started almost every game and got only 20ish minutes. Simmons started 7 games and got only 15ish minutes. Collins never decided whether Roper or Berry was better. Ryan Young got less run that he got the next year at Duke. Man, that was a disaster!

In conclusion, finally: Collins is a good coach because he plays his starters a lot. Northwestern is a winning program because Collins has learned to play his starters a lot.

Damn, look at you. That's a great post backed by data - well done. I stand corrected on saying this has been a trademark of his entire tenure.

It's hard to argue that we will have better results when we play our best players. I don't argue that. And I do trust Collins to play players if he feels they will help. Your data does show that he is willing to play more guys if the roster construction allows for that.

I do stand by my belief though that there are opportunities to rest guys when we are up by 20 with four minutes left. I think there's more bad than good that can come of playing your best players in a game that is well in hand with only a few minutes left. But I can see the other side of it - I just don't agree with it in that particular situation.

And finally, I'm an OG Sigur Ros guy - late 90's/early 2000's. Agaetis byrjun is still in my rotation. 😉

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Damn, look at you. That's a great post backed by data - well done. I stand corrected on saying this has been a trademark of his entire tenure.

It's hard to argue that we will have better results when we play our best players. I don't argue that. And I do trust Collins to play players if he feels they will help. Your data does show that he is willing to play more guys if the roster construction allows for that.

I do stand by my belief though that there are opportunities to rest guys when we are up by 20 with four minutes left. I think there's more bad than good that can come of playing your best players in a game that is well in hand with only a few minutes left. But I can see the other side of it - I just don't agree with it in that particular situation.

And finally, I'm an OG Sigur Ros guy - late 90's/early 2000's. Agaetis byrjun is still in my rotation. 😉

Some of us were fairly blunt in opining that Collins was too indecisive with his lineups back in the relatively Dark Ages and that (gasp) he either

a) didn't know who his best players were
or
b) didn't realize that he needed to play his best players more

I know we don't want to go down that rabbit hole again, but NUCat320 summarizes the past fairly well in his comment.
Collins' mindset changed very dramatically in this regard after the disappointing 2021-22 season.
Personally I think he (Collins) has gone from "not playing the best players enough" to "riding the best players too hard"
but it is the kind of thing that bites you "at some point" - and may not bite you at all, if you're lucky.

 

[TheC]

Some of us were fairly blunt in opining that Collins was too indecisive with his lineups back in the relatively Dark Ages and that (gasp) he either

a) didn't know who his best players were
or
b) didn't realize that he needed to play his best players more

I know we don't want to go down that rabbit hole again, but TheC summarizes the past fairly well in his comment.
Collins' mindset changed very dramatically in this regard after the disappointing 2021-22 season.
Personally I think he (Collins) has gone from "not playing the best players enough" to "riding the best players too hard"
but it is the kind of thing that bites you "at some point" - and may not bite you at all, if you're lucky.

While NUCat320 often gets most of his best ideas from me, I do think you were referring to his post.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Barney might be the strongest guy ( that can play) that I can remember every in a NU uniform. He is a bull and would probably kick CCC’s ass if he ever sat him for 5 minutes in a game. Nick is a strong kid too. NU doesn’t look gassed at the end of the game, and often looks fresher than the other team.

I would do exactly as CCC is doing. 2 minutes a game for KJ and Jello in garbage time isn’t going to dramatically accelerate their development. In fact, I am not sure it does anything at all.

I don’t buy the health of the starters angle. Injuries can happen if you play 15 minutes a game or 40. They are rarely caused by fatigue. I know the second one of our core 7 are tweaked with an injury there will be some “ I told you so” that will surface, but to me it’s way more random than predictable.

 

[cats_man_too]

This is absolutely the conventional wisdom, but do they really need to play as first-years to sustain the program's trajectory? Nicholson, Martinelli and Brooks all barely played as freshmen, and they are stars today. Meanwhile, guys like Roper, Casey Simmons and Jordan Clayton all got plenty of time and are giving us nothing. Coach Collins has established that he will play the frosh on an as-needed basis, and, on the whole in recent years, his staff seems better at developing guys who do not play. At this point Coach gets the benefit of a thousand doubts from me. If he thinks KJ and Gelo are better playing one minute a game than 10, we should be good with that.

You're correct, it is ultimately Collins who has to weigh the risk of losing players against inserting players that he doesn't yet trust as much. I'm simply of the opinion that finding minutes for key newer players demonstrates his investment/commitment in them. As stated elsewhere in this thread, however, spreading minutes too much seems indicative of not finding the optimal rotation.

 

[DaCat]

This is a great point bolstered by the fact that it's 9 TV timeouts, not six., first whistles under 16,12,8 & 4 minutes in each half, plus as we all know, "First called time out of the second half becomes a full time out on the floor."

This is a relevant point that often gets overlooked in discussions about playing time. There are enough stoppages to allow the players to take a break and hydrate. I'm also coming around to accept that playing Brooks and Nick 35+ minutes a game is not necessarily going to hurt them.

 

[NUera]

He may deny it but he knew Brooks needed one more rebound to keep his double double streak alive.

Considering they called TO the second he grabbed the 10th board, he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[macarthur31]

All of the following can be true simultaneously:

• This team didn't have a full summer to gel - not just bringing on Jalen Leach, but also recovering returners like Nicholson, Berry and Barnhizer. Throw onto this that they've embraced a different style of offense (30.4 in 3PA/FGA - 348th in D1, vs '24 season: 36.4/204th in D1).
• Jello and KJ look more ready/willing to contribute than frosh of previous years, and would benefit from getting game minutes to work through mistakes - particularly against competition that is a step below B1G.
• That being said, per kenpom, this was the most challenging non-con schedule in the Collins era (202nd toughest). There were fewer "cupcakes" for the team to build massive leads so that the younger bench could get minutes.
• And, the NET rewards margin of victory, so that discourages "letting up."

KJ and Jello will get their minutes during B1G season - foul trouble and injuries (hopefully not season ending) will occur. Overall, I'm aligned with Collins decision to lean on the upperclassmen, and rather hope that the frosh can step up - rather than regret that the Cats let one or two non-con games slip away.

 

[TheC]

All of the following can be true simultaneously:

• This team didn't have a full summer to gel - not just bringing on Jalen Leach, but also recovering returners like Nicholson, Berry and Barnhizer. Throw onto this that they've embraced a different style of offense (30.4 in 3PA/FGA - 348th in D1, vs '24 season: 36.4/204th in D1).
• Jello and KJ look more ready/willing to contribute than frosh of previous years, and would benefit from getting game minutes to work through mistakes - particularly against competition that is a step below B1G.
• That being said, per kenpom, this was the most challenging non-con schedule in the Collins era (202nd toughest). There were fewer "cupcakes" for the team to build massive leads so that the younger bench could get minutes.
• And, the NET rewards margin of victory, so that discourages "letting up."

KJ and Jello will get their minutes during B1G season - foul trouble and injuries (hopefully not season ending) will occur. Overall, I'm aligned with Collins decision to lean on the upperclassmen, and rather hope that the frosh can step up - rather than regret that the Cats let one or two non-con games slip away.

I posted this elsewhere and will repeat it again here that freshmen in late January/February are not the same as freshmen in November/December. CCC will likely feel more confident about playing his freshmen later in the year.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Right now, this team’s on the bubble. They’re not in yet, and every win in the B1G matters a lot. These aren’t going to be easy games, and each one builds your tournament resume. The reality is, there’s a big gap between the 7 guys getting minutes and the ones not seeing the floor. It's a steep drop this year, and we've got to be honest about that.

Now, with the week off between games, TV timeouts, and halftime, you’ve got plenty of time to rest and recover. That’s your opportunity to push the heavy-minute guys harder in games. This team, specifically Barnhizer, Berry, and Matt, lost valuable offseason time due to injuries. They need to gel, and that’s something the heavy minutes can help with. It gets them more comfortable and in sync. The B1G is tough, and we’re going to need those guys to play big minutes and play well if we’re going to compete.

There’s not much development happening for the end of the bench during garbage time. When the game’s already decided and you’re out there with other bench players, you’re not getting better. That’s not how growth happens. Growth happens in practice, and it happens in the offseason. If you’re redshirting or not getting significant minutes, your focus has to be on getting better in practice. That’s the time to develop, to push yourself without worrying about staying fresh for the minutes you’re playing in games.

The freshmen? They’ve flashed some talent, but from what I’ve seen, they’re not ready to contribute at a high level at this point in the season. And that’s okay, they’ve got time. What can be done is to work them hard in practice, develop them for the future. This season is about the core 7 guys getting those wins. That’s how NU is going to make it.

Look, I’m not going to question the coaching of the best coach to ever do it at NU. But we’ve got to understand where we are right now. Get the wins with the guys who are ready, develop the others in practice, and make sure we’re putting everything we’ve got into each B1G game. That’s how NU goes dancing again.

 

[CappyNU]

I looked at this last year, and over the past 11 seasons, there is literally 0 correlation between a P5 team's bench minutes and whether they make the NCAA tourney or not. 167 teams have made the tourney with fewer than 28.2% bench minutes (where we currently stand).

Just last year, 3 of the 4 #1 seeds and 10 of the top 16 seeds in the tourney played their starters more than we play ours right now. In 2023, 2022 and 2019, 8 of the top 16 seeds played their starters less than we play ours. Prior to 2019, it wasn't as common, but there's a definite trend now, and we are not at all an outlier.

In 2015, John Calipari went to the Final Four using 40% of his minutes on bench players, but it helps when your bench consists of future NBA draft picks Devin Booker, Tyler Ulis, and Dakari Johnson. Meanwhile, that same year, Wisconsin beat that Kentucky team in the Final Four to make it to the championship game using just 21.2% of minutes on their bench, which made sense, because they had NBA draft picks Frank Kaminsky and Sam Dekker in their lineup and their bench was Duje Dukan, Zak Showalter and Traveon Jackson.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

The reality is, there’s a big gap between the 7 guys getting minutes and the ones not seeing the floor. It's a steep drop this year, and we've got to be honest about that.

We've seen similar statements in years gone by... various people commenting on various rosters and players.

I'm not so willing to write off Windham and Ciaravino this year. I think they both can play. I don't think either is far behind Mullins, whose shooting limitations are holding him down.

As it stands, Collins is using Mullins as the sole sub for Barnhizer, Martinelli, Leach and Berry. Thats fine until anybody gets hurt or in foul trouble - then we have to play either Windham, Ciaravino or Smith.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

We've seen similar statements in years gone by... various people commenting on various rosters and players.

I'm not so willing to write off Windham and Ciaravino this year. I think they both can play. I don't think either is far behind Mullins, whose shooting limitations are holding him down.

As it stands, Collins is using Mullins as the sole sub for Barnhizer, Martinelli, Leach and Berry. Thats fine until anybody gets hurt or in foul trouble - then we have to play either Windham, Ciaravino or Smith.

I’m not writing off Windham or Ciaravino this year. I said it in the post above: “They’re not ready to contribute at a high level at this point in the season.” But we’ve got a whole Big Ten season left to go, and that’s plenty of time for them to improve. Big Ten basketball is a massive jump from high school ball. They’ve shown flashes, no doubt, but they’re still figuring out how to play within the system. Sometimes they force things or try to do too much. Defensively, they’ve still got work to do too. These are all typical freshman mistakes, and the longer they stay in the program, the fewer you’ll see of those. It’s a process, but they’re getting better every day.

Edit: IMO Mullins does not get near the credit he deserves for playing within himself offensively. Dude does not force things and makes very good passes. Also is a lockdown defender. There is a drop off after him.

 

[NUCat320]

I'm not so willing to write off Windham and Ciaravino this year. I think they both can play. I don't think either is far behind Mullins, whose shooting limitations are holding him down.

As it stands, Collins is using Mullins as the sole sub for Barnhizer, Martinelli, Leach and Berry. Thats fine until anybody gets hurt or in foul trouble - then we have to play either Windham, Ciaravino or Smith.

The young guys can play. They aren’t needed to play, because the old but still young guys are healthy and excellent.

Depth is not playing you 10 capable guys. Depth is having someone available if one of your top 6 or 8 go down.

I believe they some combination of Windham and Smith and Ciaravino could step in if a non-Nicholson got hurt. (And, realistically, Nick would probably get a lot of time at the center position if Nicholson did get hurt, and those three would still get the minutes.)

 

[SmellyCat]

I was just looking, and Blake Smith had played in one game (for less than a minute) at this point last season. Now, we can argue over whether he was ready for significant playing time or not last year, but he did make valuable contributions in important games last year.

Meanwhile Martinelli was a known quantity last year at this time but had only made it to 25 minutes once. Pretty clearly he was ready to go when he needed more time. If you go back to his freshman year, he'd played in just three games - for a little over 20 minutes total - in the non-conference schedule. Barnhizer's trajectory was similar, with just three games for 19 minutes in his freshman year going into the B10 season.

Both Martinelli and Barnhizer ended up playing a bit more in the B10 games in their freshman years (Martinelli more so, but that was likely due to Barnhizer's injuries) than they did in the pre-conference schedule. While they weren't world beaters, at least they could come in.

FWIW, Windham has played 10 games (150 minutes) and Jello has played 11 games (103 minutes). I think it's safe to say that if we're forced to use those guys extensively, NU may suffer due to losing the stars ahead of them, but they've at least had enough significant game experience to be able to step in and contribute.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

I’m not writing off Windham or Ciaravino this year. I said it in the post above: “They’re not ready to contribute at a high level at this point in the season.” But we’ve got a whole Big Ten season left to go, and that’s plenty of time for them to improve. Big Ten basketball is a massive jump from high school ball. They’ve shown flashes, no doubt, but they’re still figuring out how to play within the system. Sometimes they force things or try to do too much. Defensively, they’ve still got work to do too. These are all typical freshman mistakes, and the longer they stay in the program, the fewer you’ll see of those. It’s a process, but they’re getting better every day.

Edit: IMO Mullins does not get near the credit he deserves for playing within himself offensively. Dude does not force things and makes very good passes. Also is a lockdown defender. There is a drop off after him.

It has been difficult for Collins to play Mullins with Nicholson because of their limitations on the offensive end.
Since Barnhizer's return here are the numbers for the lineups... excluding the Pepperdine mismatch.

					NU	Opp	Minutes	NU Pace	Opp Pace
Nicholson	Martinelli	Barnhizer	Berry	Leach	274	174	131	83.5	53.0
Nicholson	Martinelli	Barnhizer	Berry	Mullins	17	15	11	59.9	52.9
Nicholson	Martinelli	Barnhizer	Mullins	Leach	24	35	16	61.0	89.0
Nicholson	Martinelli	Mullins	Berry	Leach	5	16	8	25.2	80.5
Nicholson	Mullins	Barnhizer	Berry	Leach	10	11	5+	76.4	84.1
Hunger	Martinelli	Barnhizer	Berry	Leach	52	56	26	80.2	86.4
Hunger	Mullins	Barnhizer	Berry	Leach	9	9	6	60.2	60.2
Hunger	Martinelli	Mullins	Berry	Leach	8	6	3+	102.1	76.6
Hunger	Martinelli	Barnhizer	Mullins	Leach	63	54	34	75.0	64.3
Hunger	Martinelli	Barnhizer	Berry	Mullins	31	34	21	58.7	64.4

The starters have played 40% of the minutes together as a unit, with great success.
And it is clear that Collins prefers playing Mullins with Hunger.
The point is that there has been a huge dropoff when Mullins subs in for anybody when Nicholson is playing.
At least since Barnhizer returned.
Prior to that, Ciaravino, Mullins and Windham were all getting minutes and holding their own.
It was only 4 games, but Ciaravino was 11 of 17 from the floor, including 2 of 3 from outside the arc.
Since then he has taken 5 shots and made 2.
Windham did not shoot the ball well in those 4 games, but made it pretty clear that he is quicker than Berry or Leach when he has the ball.

I have no issues with Mullins. He has upside. He's a solid, disruptive defender and a good rebounder. If he starts knocking down shots, look out. But he has not been an effective sub when Nicholson is playing and I think either Windham or Ciaravino has the ability to (possibly) help the team more than Mullins in that role.

 

[SDakaGordie]

Happy New Year to all (and to less questioning of useless bench play (or not) at end of games)! We have a 7 person lineup. We are who we are. Go Cats!

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Happy New Year to all (and to less questioning of useless bench play (or not) at end of games)! We have a 7 person lineup. We are who we are. Go Cats!

Happy New Year Gordie...

But why would you not want Ciaravino or Windham to crack the rotation and help NU play better.
That mindset confuses me.

"We are who we are" means we can't improve. I disagree wholeheartedly. People have said the same thing the last two years and have been proven wrong. "Martinelli will never be any good." WRONG Nicholson is useless. WRONG. Barnhizer is not a Big Ten player. WRONG. Ty Berry sucks. WRONG It is a long list of mis-evaluations based on limited play.

I'm rooting for the young guys to step up and make the team better - and I think they can, just like a bunch of guys before them.

 

[SDakaGordie]

Happy New Year Gordie...

But why would you not want Ciaravino or Windham to crack the rotation and help NU play better.
That mindset confuses me.

"We are who we are" means we can't improve. I disagree wholeheartedly. People have said the same thing the last two years and have been proven wrong. "Martinelli will never be any good." WRONG Nicholson is useless. WRONG. Barnhizer is not a Big Ten player. WRONG. Ty Berry sucks. WRONG It is a long list of mis-evaluations based on limited play.

I'm rooting for the young guys to step up and make the team better - and I think they can, just like a bunch of guys before them.

Happy new year, PWB.

My point, which will not please you, I fear, was that a 7-man rotation essentially obviates the need for (or at least significantly diminishes the value of) +/-.

As to Windham/Ciaravino - I would love to see them to crack the rotation, but having seen them thus far, it will take much more time. It’s not saying they (or anyone else historically) will not be good - they just aren’t there yet and some garbage minutes at the end will not help that.

 

[SmellyCat]

I have a feeling that we'll see Windham tomorrow. Not that putting a freshman in against an elite press defense is a recipe for success, but I think Collins will want to see more ball handlers on the floor and Windham might just be the kind of guy who can step up if NU struggles with the press. At whose expense though?

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Happy new year, PWB.

My point, which will not please you, I fear, was that a 7-man rotation essentially obviates the need for (or at least significantly diminishes the value of) +/-.

As to Windham/Ciaravino - I would love to see them to crack the rotation, but having seen them thus far, it will take much more time. It’s not saying they (or anyone else historically) will not be good - they just aren’t there yet and some garbage minutes at the end will not help that.

Hey, I am ok with a 7 man rotation, as long as we're winning.
I used to complain that Collins played too many guys!
There's always value in the +/- numbers, but sure a 7 man rotation limits the data.

I think any experience helps the bench, garbage time or no. Especially the freshman. Lots of psychological reasons to play the bench guys whenever possible.

 

[EagerFan]

One plan PSU can work is trying to get Mullins and Berry in foul trouble early - they both play aggressive defense as their norm, so flopping and acting could put them both in foul trouble fairly early, which would give KJ and possibly Angelo opportunities.