This staff should be on a short leash
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Fair point. The guy said 2 seasons in the "modern era", which many define as beginning in 1995. But I guess 1948 should also be a contender as the only other Rose Bowl team.
Hey Ecat, even an illiterate, poorly educated, Golf and AIDs Awareness double major from OSU like me, can occasionally luck into a profound statement.
As far as the "cheating" reference, I appreciate the effort but it seemed as more of an afterthought. I'm a little disappointed. Where's the passion? I hope you aren't losing it in your old age. LOL
Have a great season!
While I was overseas without her, my wife handled all of our finances including writing donations checks to NU. Now all of my alumni department materials come addressed to her. The name on the degree is not as important as the name on the checks.
I don't know what you mean. There is not enough info even to understand the obvious sarcasm. First, although alcohol may have clouded my memory of the 80's, I think Dennis Green left voluntarily, whereas I was giving a situation in which Fitz would be fired. Second, I sincerely hope that you are not comparing the Herculean task that Green accomplished by winning ANY games in 1982, as evidenced by his coach of the year honors, to Pat's efforts in the hypothetical 2013-17 range having 4 five win seasons. Interstate 290, Northwestern zero and all. It is like comparing a guy that builds an ark vs a guy that can drive a boat pretty well.
With respect, then why compete? It is a fact (I haven't checked, but I assume it's correct) that NU's success rate against its peers is 38%. If we simply say, well, we have it tough (you know, because we offer a great degree and access to the greatest city in the Midwest and a dynamic leader of men as a head coach and cool uniforms), then why try at all?
Because NU is and always will be about trying to win titles without sacrificing the character of the program.
Your right and this was clearly stated when NU, playing lots and lots of back-ups got humiliated by a bad Illinois team last season.
Other than a few top programs, the same thing could be said of most Div 1 and BCS schools. The dOSU, (until recently) MICH, PSU . AL, and the FL, SSU and the like are always on the inside with the rest trying to get into the mix as often as they can. Occasionally one drops out of the elite group and is replaced for a time but in reality, 90% of programs cannot meet your standards. And like it or not, we do have more handicaps than most.
Of the schools in our group, (you know, ones with academic restrictions, private etc, only Stanford (only recently) and Notre Dame have exceeded what we have done in the last 20 years. And both have some significant advantages over us. Stanford weather and better recruiting area and ND being ND with long term history.
I made this point last week. So apparently you both know how to read and recognize the truth. Good job
Who said anything about 'sacrificing character'? Play the hand you're dealt. Turn your weaknesses (academic restrictions...) into strengths (...which allow you to recruit a very small pool, rather than everybody with four stars).
My standards aren't high. My standards are actually very similar to GCG's - basically, win six most years, be in position to compete for a division title every 3-5 years, don't finish below .500 often, graduate a significant majority of kids, kick dickheads and law-breakers off the team.
I just don't accept "geez, it's easier at Iowa and Minnesota and Wisconsin" as an excuse. (Note: NU has better academics, better in-state recruiting pool, better access to a major city, cooler uniforms, less grandfatherly head coach than any of these programs.)
But 5-7, 5-7, who-knows-what-they'll-do-this-year says that NU is not meeting that standard. I would definitely support significant organizational change at 5-7 again.
Despite the academic restrictions, NU should be able
To recruit nationally based on the things you guys are always bragging Bout. That's an advantage the Wildcats should have over most of the Big 10 schools with he exception of maybe 4-5 programs.
To recruit nationally based on the things you guys are always bragging Bout. That's an advantage the Wildcats should have over most of the Big 10 schools with he exception of maybe 4-5 programs.
Maybe I misunderstood the intent of your post. You asked:
Also - those of you that think Fitz will still be the best option even if more failure - who would hire the guy if we have two more losing seasons? I could conceive of him not being a head coach again if he is fired.[/QUOTE]
The question was who would hire the guy if we have two more losing seasons. This to me implied he potentially wouldn't be hired due to a losing record. My comment only meant Green got 3 very high profile jobs after a 10-45 record at NU. No one said Green's task wasn't more difficult, but a lot of folks on this board acknowledge a bunch of obstacles in the 80's and 90's and act like we don't have any competitive disadvantages nowadays. Sure, they are nowhere near what Green faced, but these disadvantages that exist today would be well known by people making hiring decisions. Barring a complete collapse theses next two years and assuming he was let go, IMO he would eventually resurface as a head coach. So, if you feel a 10-45 record in the dark ages is better than a 60-53 record in today's environment, then fine, that's your right.
I just want to salute this reasonable explanation. It's not like we don't want to win every game every year but there are certain realities of disparity in college football.
We do recruit nationally based on the strengths we have, but that's not enough to overcome the significantly smaller pool of recruits.
Check out our roster, we do recruit nationally. I wish we established a better local presence, but some disagree. The staff certainly emphasizes academics, how can they not. This is the one area NU stands out. I think you are being naive if you feel the majority of the top tier players put academics as the number one reason they attend a program. Most of theses top tier talents talk academics but they think they are going to the league. I was recruited years ago for a minor sport in which pro wasn't an option, and I was too immature/dumb to see the benefit of a superior education. I cared about how was the team, the co-eds, the support of the fans/staff etc. Tell me what competitive advantage other than academics do we have against the factories? Academics, maybe location ( proximity to Chicago? Our recruits pretty much say the same things, 1) world class education and 2) coach Fitz as the reason they choose NU. People may snicker at the second one, but ask.
I was disappointed in the lack of changes for this year. Change normally happens after one lousy season, but after two lousy seasons, and still no change, I guess the problem is suppose to fix itself. I hope so.
That said, as awful as last season was, and it was terrible, I happen to think that this program is in the best shape it has been in since I started following the cats in '95....as far as talent, not necessarily coaching. Speaking mostly about a couple asistants that Fitz carries, but he doesn't think they are too heavy.
At any rate, I feel he should be measured on the state of the program, and I think the state of the program is actually very healthy. I've been a fitz supporter from day one and I'm not a Pollyanna. Yes, there is a Problem of Fitz and he is mostly a ultra conservative blockhead who coughed up many many games when he was ahead. And there are times when loyalty is not a virtue [see assistant coaches].
But, at the end of the day, his loyalty is why we love him so I guess we have to take the good and the bad of it. His loyalty for his players had him burn Colter's shirt for one freakn game when it was obvious that Watkins wasn't the answer. Impressive. How many coaches would have their seniors backs like that? All the math said to keep Colter's shirt on and let the seniors get their collective asses handed to them in the bowl game.
And I support Fitz because he married our program. How do they say, "For better or for worse?" I'm ok with that. Barnett only dated our team as he flirted with all the other Hollywood Barbie teams, and eventually gave us the "Dear Rick Letter". Nothing against Barnett. Purple blood is what it is all about. I know Fitz has it, and I hope Collins does.
NU absolutely recruits nationally. The goal is to get better at it. Being realistic about where the WIldcats are now and where I believe they would like to be in the fairly near future, it's not about getting top student athletes who have USC, Alabama, OSU, or someother school as an option.
But if NU got 1-2 Four Star athletes who might otherwise go to a Stanford or Notre Dame, beat out Army, Navy, and Air Force, for their best recruits, and the like...
If NU can get better with 5 recruits per class than they are getting now, that would give your team the potential to get an extra couple of wins per year.
But if NU got 1-2 Four Star athletes who might otherwise go to a Stanford or Notre Dame, beat out Army, Navy, and Air Force, for their best recruits, and the like...
If NU can get better with 5 recruits per class than they are getting now, that would give your team the potential to get an extra couple of wins per year.
The problem is that top-flight recruits are going to be recruited by the nation's elite programs regardless of their academics. That means that competition is fierce for these guys, even if they value academics. It takes a special guy to turn down the "factories" in favor of NU, but we have found our share (Odenigbo, Dickerson, Alviti, Thorson, Igwebuike, etc.).
It's not an advantage to have a smaller pool of recruits than the teams you're playing. Most Division I rosters contain dozens of recruits we can't even approach. Anybody can recruit nationally, unless you're telling me Meyer is going to get all of his recruits from Ohio.
Anyone can recruit Nationally, but for some schools it really doesn't make sense. If they don't have a consistent successful track record, a top coach, a chance for exposure and big National stage games, and a less than attractive location, why would someone from the South, East Coast, West Coast, or some other hot recruiting base go there if they had better options?
NU has the academics and proximity to Chicago to sell. Those are unique marketing points.
I'm not saying out recruit OSU, Michigan, Alabama, etc... I'm talking about out recruiting for targeted prospects the next tiers. I'm talking about being able to take top players from other mid-level programs. Sure the academics factor in, but there are players out there who are talented and intelligent. Contrary to biased opinions, there are student athletes interested in academics outside of NU, Stanford, and Vanderbilt. While the pool is smaller than the general recruiting pool, it's more than enough to bring in a class of 25.
But getting these students aren't a given. That's the challange, which is a heck of a lot better than that's the excuse. Whether it's Fitz or someone else, you guys need a staff who can elevate who they are bringing into the program.
NU has the academics and proximity to Chicago to sell. Those are unique marketing points.
I'm not saying out recruit OSU, Michigan, Alabama, etc... I'm talking about out recruiting for targeted prospects the next tiers. I'm talking about being able to take top players from other mid-level programs. Sure the academics factor in, but there are players out there who are talented and intelligent. Contrary to biased opinions, there are student athletes interested in academics outside of NU, Stanford, and Vanderbilt. While the pool is smaller than the general recruiting pool, it's more than enough to bring in a class of 25.
But getting these students aren't a given. That's the challange, which is a heck of a lot better than that's the excuse. Whether it's Fitz or someone else, you guys need a staff who can elevate who they are bringing into the program.
The problem is about 75% of the guys OSU can go after, we can't and of the 25% we can go after, everyone else wants as well. While we can be more efficient in the time we use on recruits, the limitations mean that while we might be able to get one elite guy for a position, we cannot get the 3 that OSU gets. So when an injury occurs, our dropoff is much more dramatic. And IL is a relatively weak talent pool (compared with Ohio, PA, Mich) and we have three programs in state and every one else going after the limited pool of in state talent. So not as easy as you suggest.
Good point. At my alma mater, I ended up on the alumni board of a fraternity where I was never a member. Two of my boys were members so I was the parent rep.While I was overseas without her, my wife handled all of our finances including writing donations checks to NU. Now all of my alumni department materials come addressed to her. The name on the degree is not as important as the name on the checks.
Or even worse...dip to the abysmal level of the Barnett 1995 class that produced ONE starter...but don't stop with your blow job for Barnett here.
Hdhntr, I appreciate your response. I'm not trying to imply that anything is easy. I am saying that the expectation should be higher than what it sometimes seems to be among your fan base. I can't and won't speak for the coaches as I don't have intimate knowledge of their thought processes.
I keep saying, don't compare who you are recruiting with whom OSU is going after. Whether it's because of academics or what a student athlete thinks he can get from a program footballwise, it's apples and oranges.
But again, can you out recruit or get near the same level of recruiting as other Elite Academic Institutions? Are there players who end up at an Iowa, Minnesota, Indiana, Purdue, top MAC schools, mid-level ACC, mid-level Big 12 and PAC 12, and/or Conference USA teams, that would meet NU's academic requirements and be an athletic upgrade?
In every conference, on every team that is a small number, but collectively it's enough to improve your normal recruiting class. If NU has as much to offer as you all claim, you can increase the level of talent that is coming in from across the nation. t's about finding solutions, not excuses. If Fitzgerald can do it that's great. If not, that might be part of the criteria for your next coach.
I keep saying, don't compare who you are recruiting with whom OSU is going after. Whether it's because of academics or what a student athlete thinks he can get from a program footballwise, it's apples and oranges.
But again, can you out recruit or get near the same level of recruiting as other Elite Academic Institutions? Are there players who end up at an Iowa, Minnesota, Indiana, Purdue, top MAC schools, mid-level ACC, mid-level Big 12 and PAC 12, and/or Conference USA teams, that would meet NU's academic requirements and be an athletic upgrade?
In every conference, on every team that is a small number, but collectively it's enough to improve your normal recruiting class. If NU has as much to offer as you all claim, you can increase the level of talent that is coming in from across the nation. t's about finding solutions, not excuses. If Fitzgerald can do it that's great. If not, that might be part of the criteria for your next coach.
To me, this represents the continental divide on this board. Those that feel the same as AB, like RCF and shakes, seem to display outward hostility to those that don't. I don't quite understand it. I was a fan of Thibs and wanted to see the front office dismissed - but it went the other way. Time will tell if my opinion carried more weight or not. Next year, Bulls bring back nearly the same lineup - making the measurement super easy. That may be the biggest mistake the front office makes - betting on themselves...but I digress...
I tend to agree with AB that another disastrous season will not spell the end of the Fitz era, though the rumblings will grow louder. Time will tell if those questioning Fitz or the Purple Koolaid collective were right. If Fitz wins during his tenure, then hats off to AB and the collective. If not, then I fully expect another more violent version of the Bill Carmody melt down over here. Every thread will digress to Fitz v the replacement until most of the posters wander away for awhile.
At the end of the day, except for the true trolls and other school visitors, everyone here has a common characteristic - we want to see NU succeed. RCF, shakes, AB oft times - y'all need to take it down a notch (though I admittedly feed off your nastiness and return in kind - not the best at the finding the high road...). AB - I won't suggest going somewhere else, as that is not my call to make (or yours), but maybe post less
What you described there is exactly what we are starting to do on a more regular basis, which is why the general consensus is that our talent level is rising... but also makes it more frustrating that our win totals are dropping.
Fitz would be killing it if he were recruiting at a program like OSU. Don't know if he'd build the machine like Meyer has, but recruiting would not be a problem. For an example, you just have to look at Franklin, who's possibly putting together a top 10 class at PSU, despite recent sanctions, after jumping from Vanderbilt. Yeah, we have an academic reputation, but most B1G schools are not horrible academically, so that card only goes so far. As far as four-star recruits, we had four of them in Jackson's class. We'll see how they pan out.
We've actually had a couple of decent coaches at NU, even some Hall of Famers. If it were easy to win here, more people would have done it.
But is not just the guys you go after. It is 75% of the guys other schools go after as well. We can get a number but depth is a huge issue when injuries occur. You were able to bring out a 3rd string QB who was better suited to play than our second string guy (and maybe even the first) We just cannot do that.
And it has been a problem for a long time. Parsegian had us to number 1 in 62 but then the injuries took their toll. The result is he went to ND and was able to get more depth. We are improving but not there yet.
Injuries are not the only issue. It seems like many times in our history our starting team is not too bad but there is a drop off when we have to go to the bench. We have 20 or 30 good players while our competition has 60 or 70 good players. So late in the game our very tired first string is competing against the opponents fresher reserves or we play our reserves who are a fair bit inferior to the opponents second or third team.
Also it is often the case that many of the reserves are playing on special teams. So our lack of depth really shows up on kicking and kick return teams.
Also it is often the case that many of the reserves are playing on special teams. So our lack of depth really shows up on kicking and kick return teams.
Shakes may be fitz' biggest cheerleader but he isnt the only one.To me, this represents the continental divide on this board. Those that feel the same as AB, like RCF and shakes, seem to display outward hostility to those that don't. I don't quite understand it. I was a fan of Thibs and wanted to see the front office dismissed - but it went the other way. Time will tell if my opinion carried more weight or not. Next year, Bulls bring back nearly the same lineup - making the measurement super easy. That may be the biggest mistake the front office makes - betting on themselves...but I digress...
I tend to agree with AB that another disastrous season will not spell the end of the Fitz era, though the rumblings will grow louder. Time will tell if those questioning Fitz or the Purple Koolaid collective were right. If Fitz wins during his tenure, then hats off to AB and the collective. If not, then I fully expect another more violent version of the Bill Carmody melt down over here. Every thread will digress to Fitz v the replacement until most of the posters wander away for awhile.
At the end of the day, except for the true trolls and other school visitors, everyone here has a common characteristic - we want to see NU succeed. RCF, shakes, AB oft times - y'all need to take it down a notch (though I admittedly feed off your nastiness and return in kind - not the best at the finding the high road...). AB - I won't suggest going somewhere else, as that is not my call to make (or yours), but maybe post less
Better to focus on more even opinions who can stay fair in assessments.
And let us not forget that thousands lost faith in this program so fitz has the opportunity to get things moving out of the cellar again. I think he will and that we will go bowling. If not then id be surprised if phillips allows him to keep his staff again.
Go cats!
Please don't discuss me behind my back by name. I have discussed nothing about Fitz and my opinion or cheered him on this thread. I will not take this blatant disrespect.
Lack of quality ready depth is the problem. It is exposed by the injuries. We are getting to where we have more quality backups but still short of what we need when the injury bug hits.
Let me see if I understand. You protest Turk referencing you by name despite referencing him and in a negative light time and again? Without even touching upon the 'behind your back' bit, seriously? Are you that much of a hypocrite? Do you really believe you have been anointed by some god to pass judgement while remaining of such stature that even invoking thou's name shall draw lightning from the skies?
You have fallen off too many pyramids...
You cannot be serious. Unless you are suggesting boosters should help NU rise to Bama levels, that's just crazy.
When you are winning, fans will come. When you are losing, diehards and the other team's fans will come.
Stanford has reduced their capacity by half and still can't sell out. Michigan has recently been accused about lying in regards to their attendance. Both these programs recruit well, remain in the hunt and regularly make a run at titles. Both have strong academic programs.
As a White Sox fan, I say 'Horseshit!.' That's what has separated us from those Cub idiots. If management won't field a competitive team, we won't go. When you start blaming the fans for your teams failures, you are reaching the bottom of the barrel. Barnett has won without fans. Vanderbilt put out a couple big years - their attendance rivals ours.
Blaming the fans...
Winning puts people in the stands here. I watched the nu special on BTN last week about the 1995 season and a few players said the stands were full and "they were our fans".
Two losing seasons killed our ticket base here. I wouldnt even be surprised if we are down to below 19,000 sth. We simply dont have the tradition to sustain near sellout levels. Only when a fish is on do people start getting interested. We need to be exciting. Even i got bored last year watching the same bonehead 7 step drop at iowa to get sacked. Announcers even questioned our coaching.
i hope everyone did their homework this year cuz fitz cant keep on carrying some deadbeat coaches.
Two losing seasons killed our ticket base here. I wouldnt even be surprised if we are down to below 19,000 sth. We simply dont have the tradition to sustain near sellout levels. Only when a fish is on do people start getting interested. We need to be exciting. Even i got bored last year watching the same bonehead 7 step drop at iowa to get sacked. Announcers even questioned our coaching.
i hope everyone did their homework this year cuz fitz cant keep on carrying some deadbeat coaches.
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