To quote the author ... sigh
- Thread starter Max_Power
- Start date
I'm sorry but it was becoming pretty obvious Ayo was waiting for the big dawgs to come in and sweep him off his feet.
From the additional offers the staff has out there in the last many weeks, it seems like it was pretty obvious to them also. It's too bad.
From the additional offers the staff has out there in the last many weeks, it seems like it was pretty obvious to them also. It's too bad.
I totally agree that he was waiting and that's awesome for him that it worked out.
Right now NU has a solid shot recruiting against the Creightons, Xavier's Butlers and most of the Big10. These are teams NU never recruited against before. As fans we probably over value the product. Will be an intersesting few months.
Right now NU has a solid shot recruiting against the Creightons, Xavier's Butlers and most of the Big10. These are teams NU never recruited against before. As fans we probably over value the product. Will be an intersesting few months.
I think that's looking at things through rose-colored glasses, if not complete blinders. Not beating you up, Max Power, at all, but we have recruited against Creighton, Xavier, and Butler before. This is not new. We have recruited against Marquette, ND, Iowa, Purdue, Stanford, even Louisville (Mirkovic)!. In the past, we have won some of those battles. This is not new.
With Bryant and Scottie graduating in a year, and with our highly-touted youth in the front court (i.e., not blocking anybody at guard), these recruiting misses are glaring. Coach Chris has already told at least one recruit that the kid would be handed the keys to drive the offense from Day One, but that pitch hasn't been compelling, even with a new arena, new locker rooms, and new practice facilities. We should be fending off AAU coaches trying to get their kids a look instead of losing to the likes of the same old characters, Purdue, ND, etc.
I wonder if there is some negative recruiting going on re: the Vassar lawsuit. The poor decision to recruit him continues to haunt us. Say what you want about Johnnie, but Coach Chris offered him a scholarship and that dog of a decision keeps coming back to bite us. I know EvanstonCat loved Vassar's athleticism, but the checkered H.S. career was a huge warning sign and the lukewarm offer list should have given us further pause. But, wait a minute, these things were discussed on the board quite a lot upon his commitment! I'm guessing the assistant coaches and Chris were debating these issues, too, and somebody made a bad call. My guess is that the frustration over realizing what a bad mistake it was to recruit him caused a lot of the turmoil that followed. And remember, all of this is coming from a "Johnnie apologist" who likes him.
I remember how thrilled my daughter was when she received her acceptance letter to NU. She couldn't throw a football or dunk a basketball so it never occurred to her to turn down NU for a lesser school. All she got out of her NU degree was a terrific collegiate experience and education which she used to help her have a successful career and a happy life. She didn't make millions as a pro athlete, but, then again how many college athletes do. I don't begrudge some 17-year old kid his dream of an NFL or NBA career. But I do have an issue with adults who exploit these kids for their own ends.
You need to get out of the NU bubble if you think Vassar even enters the mind of a top 50 kid when Kansas etc starts knocking on the door.
As for recruiting misses, there's nothing "glaring" about a June miss if a staff is well prepared. As we've seen too many times, it's when expectations are low AND options C, D and E take a pass that problems really develop.
And fans who think this still isn't a transitional stage with several bumps in the road are fooling themselves.
I wonder if the WRA renovation is hurting this cycle. There isn't anything to show a recruit other than pictures, and I think the finished product will be more impressive in person during a game than the artists renditions are. The old barn wasn't much but at least it didn't look like something out of Aleppo.....
Next time, read what I said more clearly. I think it's possible that other schools are using Vassar's allegations to negatively recruit. I never said "Vassar enters the mind" of anyone. Reading comprehension lacking? Sad!
I doubt that! Fitz got a LOT of mileage out of the Fitz Mahal before ground was broken on the thing. He promised Ifeadi Odenigbo and others that they would be training there. I don't think that anybody holds it against Fitz that delays occurred, but he was recruiting with it before there were any artist's renderings released to the public, let alone ground being broken. So I don't buy that Coach Chris is hampered by the renovations when work is underway and the drawings are pretty impressive.
If we can't recruit blue-chippers coming off of an NCAA tourney bid and plenty of positive publicity, then sad!
If we can't recruit guards when we have two starting spots open after 2017-18, then sad!
If we can't recruit prospects when we are basically rebuilding our arena into a beautiful shrine to Wildcat b'ball, then sad!
If we can't recruit top 100 players when we are building a brand-new practice facility for b'ball, then sad!
If we can't recruit kids when we are relaxing some standards, then my GOD!
Coach Chris has advantages that his predecessors could have only dreamed. Not to mention the big new contract! Now he just has to get it done. Enough of this "bumps" in the road talk. Bumps in the road are your entire starting lineup transferring or a gambling scandal. What bump is Coach Chris hitting besides some possible negative recruiting that's ultimately his own doing?
It is possible. However, I believe that negative recruiting is more likely to go in the direction of "do you *REALLY* think CCC will be there by the time you are a senior?"...essentially this turns a strength (the CCC perceived standing in the profession) into a weakness (he is 'too good' for NU).
Another thing that may conceivably affect is the absence of the "you can make history" seling point. Not sure how much this can affect, but it is certainly one less argument the coaches have to convince kids...again, it's like turning a positive into a negative...NU has finally made the NCAAT...it's a positive...but removes the possibility of being in that first group that did it.
Amazing speculation on why we miss out on top 100 recruits. R-E-L-A-X. We are on the radar for guys that guys hat never would have spoke to before CCC came here. We will get good players.
Okay, you're right, that's fairer.
If you remember, I was one of the people lecturing xybobwhatever last year when he said the sky is falling. I guess my patience is wearing thin now, too.
True only for Carmody era. We recruited some highly touted guys. Some did not come and some did but we never got enough at the same time.
I don't know; didn't we just announce a big extension for Chris?
Well, I don't buy that, either. Now we have the "you can make history and take us to the Sweet 16." There's always another goal. Frankly the "you can make history" thing didn't work too well before McIntosh and Lindsey arrived. Good job by the staff to sign them but their destinations were originally Ind State and Iowa.
Don't cry, little Donny; I've been told it's June 10th and I'm relaxing now. Here, you can use my Willie the Wildcat handkerchief.... Ugh, just keep it.
Um, didn't AJ Turner who was an ESPN 4* recruit commit to NU a couple months ago? Yes, he's a transfer, so we actually know he can play D1 basketball.
And last year didn't Anthony Gaines, another ESPN 4* recruit commit to NU and wasn't he mentioned as a top performer in a recent Spring All Star game?
Two years ago, didn't Barrett Benson and Rapolas Ivanauskas commit to NU? Both 4* recruits.
Three years ago, didn't 4* recruit Aaron Falzon commit to NU?
Four years ago, didn't 4* recruit Vic Law commit to NU?
So, for five years in a row Collins has been able to reel in a player rated 4* by one of the recruiting services.
When has that happened before in NU bball history?
Why, in God's name, would anyone criticize this staff's recruiting?
Sure, NU needs to replace a couple guys who are going to graduate next year. Why oh why would we think this staff isn't all over that like white on rice. And, pray tell, who in the continental U.S. would do a better job recruiting into NU than this staff?
And last year didn't Anthony Gaines, another ESPN 4* recruit commit to NU and wasn't he mentioned as a top performer in a recent Spring All Star game?
Two years ago, didn't Barrett Benson and Rapolas Ivanauskas commit to NU? Both 4* recruits.
Three years ago, didn't 4* recruit Aaron Falzon commit to NU?
Four years ago, didn't 4* recruit Vic Law commit to NU?
So, for five years in a row Collins has been able to reel in a player rated 4* by one of the recruiting services.
When has that happened before in NU bball history?
Why, in God's name, would anyone criticize this staff's recruiting?
Sure, NU needs to replace a couple guys who are going to graduate next year. Why oh why would we think this staff isn't all over that like white on rice. And, pray tell, who in the continental U.S. would do a better job recruiting into NU than this staff?
I think that he can be our head coach for as long as he wants to be, just like Pat. He's got to work harder than ever to sustain what he's built so far and ultimately surpass it. Hopefully he will. If he doesn't, then we'll struggle and never make it over the hump, but I don't see any reason to ever replace him barring a major infraction.
I view him as our Basketball Fitz and hopefully Chris views us as his home, too. That doesn't mean that he's exempt from criticism or worry about the current state of the team. You can't conflate recruiting concern and replacing the coach into the same issue. Recruiting problems could lead to poor results on the court, but even so, Chris deserves extraordinary leeway and can coach the team for as long as he wants in my book. Doesn't mean we can't complain or urge him to do better, though.
Turner hasn't played for us. Neither has Gaines or Ivanauskas. Benson is a soph backup. Falzon missed practically the entire season after an up-and-down frosh year. Not one of them has justified his hype--yet.
Law is the guy who got us into the tournament in my opinion. McIntosh is the MVP and Lindsey is our scorer, but Law's defense, rebounding, outside shot (nearly 40% on triples), and athleticism were absolutely essential. His presence separated last year's squad from any previous Wildcats squad. We've never had a third option who was that good, at least not since the 1960s when there were, what, 24 spots in the tournament?
It's high praise, but like you said, it was 4 years ago. Now we're replacing Bryant and Scott after this season and it will be a huge challenge.
Boy, it would have been nice if we had snagged our first choices. When you miss on them, you get nervous about "reaching." We lucked out on Lindsey when Iowa cooled on him because he was tooling around in a wheelchair. We stretched for Vassar and that was less successful.
Get a couple of our top targets and then you reduce the risk. Maybe they don't pan out, but at least you got the guys you really wanted and preferred. That's all I want for our team.
I'm glad we're back to a realistic long-term view that reflects years - not months or weeks as a final determination of those coming years.
You might want to consider that your sad ... sad ... sad post communicates more that just as simple concern or criticism of recruiting.
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Now you are just making things up. Relaxing standards, really! Those top 100 kids are also seeing super practice facilities at the other schools they visit. W-R a basketball shrine, come on. Every program gets negative recruiting tossed their way and none of these kids even know who Vassar is. What's sad is your total negative, un-founded attitude.
Yesterday's credibility was shot when he said he was a Johnnie Vassar apologist. So you can throw his posts critical of CC in the toilet. He also does not know that NU had a talented freshman PG in Isiah Brown who was at NU and was a key contributor off the bench and Yesterday's Cat has not figured out that NU has an up and coming 6'4" athletically gifted SG in Freshman Anthony Gaines coming in who is a slashing penetrating guard and playmaker that we have not seen at NU at this stage in their careers. Scottie Lindsey was a spot up shooter in his first two years and is not a natural penetrator. 6'9" Rapolas Ivaunauskas with what we have been told has a good mid-range game. NU missed on Cormac Ryan. So what they are other talented players NU is going after.
So your post about who Collins can't recruit....scoring guards, blue chips, etc....is spurred in part by the fact that several of his recruits are just entering or early in their college careers. Which is a different argument. So you're putting your money on the staff not being able to identify and develop talent? Or what, exactly are you saying?
247 ranks NU recruits since 2000. That is 17 recruiting classes. Of the top 15 recruits in that period, Collins has brought in eight. Is it a failure for a coach who has only been here five years to have brought in 8 of the top 15 recruits?
Separate question. Why should Collins be faulted for his compensation? If he's able to secure more compensation from NU, why is that a negative about Collins? And why would recruits give two shits whether a coach makes $2 million a year or $3 million a year? We should feel less good about Collins because he's smart enough to get more out of NU? If there was more to be had and he didn't get it is that in some way virtuous?
I'm concerned about missing out on our top choices to replace Lindsey and McIntosh. You would think that we would win one of these recruiting battles given the program's upward trajectory, positive publicity during Madness, essentially new arena, new practice facilities--not to mention a big selling point of having two open starting slots after 2017-18.
Somebody said, "Well, wait, we won the recruitment of a bunch of 4 star guys." I'm just saying that we haven't really seen if we "won" anything with them yet.
Considering the last coach didn't really recruit and left it up to his assistants, I think you have to look at the last head coaches who actually tried to bring in blue-chip guys. 'Byrd' wasn't really successful in recruiting, and O'Neill was a mixed bag--hard to assess because he drove off his own guys but he did set up Carmody with some initial talent.
I don't really think that it's relevant how many recruits that Collins brings in. That's partially a function of how many spots come open and how many transfers you take or don't take. Only wins matter and he's done well. Can he continue that pace and surpass it? We have to replace Scottie and Bryant to do that, so of course it's a major challenge that ought to draw our focus and attention.
Who says that it's a bad thing that he gets paid well? He darn well deserves it for getting us into the NCAA Tournament. Did I say otherwise?
I think it's acceptable to be concerned.
I see a four-year player at the point, no obvious in-house replacement*, and no recruits committed. There are ~four months remaining to find that player.
My guess is that the point guard who'll be starting in October 2018 is Lathon, Llewellyn, or not-yet-offered.
*I love Brown's game, because he can get to the bucket in a way we've never seen at NU, but he'll need to get the shoot-first out of his game and shoot better than 35/29/77 if he wants that job.
I see a four-year player at the point, no obvious in-house replacement*, and no recruits committed. There are ~four months remaining to find that player.
My guess is that the point guard who'll be starting in October 2018 is Lathon, Llewellyn, or not-yet-offered.
*I love Brown's game, because he can get to the bucket in a way we've never seen at NU, but he'll need to get the shoot-first out of his game and shoot better than 35/29/77 if he wants that job.
I have talked with Johnnie and I like him. What credibility do you have? At all?
Gaines hasn't put on a uniform for us, so I don't see how you can decide already that he's a "playmaker that we have not seen at NU at this stage in their careers."
You must be watching him during summer scrimmages to say something bold like that. Please tell us all about it, Mr. Credibility.
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Go back and watch Law and even Lindsey as Frosh, or Lindsey as a sophomore. I think Falzon as a frosh compares quite favorably to how these two performed.
I still see the 17/18 Cats as being last year's team minus a great defender / glue guy and a three point specialist role player but plus a third year four star "transfer" (Falzon), a second year four star "transfer" (Rap), and a frosh four star wing that can attack the basket. Combine this with our options 1 & 2 playing in their final seasons, and our third senior looking ready to pick up the plus defender / glue guy / energizer bunny role. If the Cats stay healthy, the depth on this team is quite remarkable and provides CCC with options to create matchup challenges for many teams.
I'm very excited to see how Brown and Benson grow their game and confidence going into their second years. I also am curious to see if anything has clicked for Ash. He showed signs of it last year at times. If he can figure out where he fits, he could provide some much needed minutes at the 2 off the bench. Love his D! In a lineup where he's not required to shoulder much load on offense, say paired with BMac, Law, Falzon/Rap, Pardon/Benson, I think he can guard the other team's best scorer in 1 - 3 and take some tough D minutes away from BMac and Law while Lindsey catches a breather. Or, sub Lindsey at 3 for Law and same thing. Dreaming, rambling.
My impatience with recruiting, I think, is due to my not wanting to let go of the incredibly positive vibe from this season. I'm greedy now and simply want more. I want to see the historic (by NU standards) accomplishments of this team, staff, administration, and athletic donors paid off in recruiting wins. I'm incredibly biased, but I feel they (we) deserve it.
Yesterday, I hope this doesn't become tedious.
In regards to missing top choices to replace Lindsey and BMac: Neither player was our top choice at their respective position. When the staff didn't have another guard prospect, Collins went all in on BMac. Lindsey's recruiting became easier after he got injured. My point consistently is this staff is highly capable of identifying Big Ten talent and only offers players who can compete at a Big Ten level.
In regards to "you would think that we would win one of these battles given the upward trajectory": NU has the most loaded roster it's had in decades. We are now competing against top tier basketball schools for top talent. The recruiting battles won in the last five years were won with very little in the way of assets. My expectation is that recruiting in the next five years will be a modest tick up from the last five. That will place NU squarely as a top 40 program. The biggest recruiting hurdle will be academics. We still won't be able to compete for 60 percent of the four and five star talent. And, of the 40 percent we can compete, more than half will be indifferent and even turned off at the prospect of a rigorous education. A shiny new stadium and charismatic coach does not fix that.
"I'm just saying that we haven't really seen if we "won" anything with them yet." : Wait a second. Didn't this team just make the NCAA tournament for the first time in its history with Collins recruits? You haven't seen enough from Benson and Falzon to know that they are high quality players? You think that the quality of the most recent recruits may be a step down from what seems to be "typical Collins players"? I think it's statements like this that may lead people to question your bias.
Regarding recruiting of blue chips by former coaches: Foster is the only coach whose recruiting success are comparable to Collins and that team transferred out. That was in a different media and AAU era as well. Falk did well, but wasn't as consistent so his bench wasn't as deep.
You brought up Collins new contract in a statement about recruiting. There are others here and elsewhere who write critically about the fact that Collins has support that his predecessor did not enjoy. Bigger contract, access to jets, new arena on the way, etc., etc. Why does Collins get the benefit of such largesse when his predecessor did not? That, to me, is not a reason to dislike Collins. Collins does not ultimately decide when the University chooses to reconstruct Welsh Ryan. Collins does not approve his new contract. Collins does not choose to make available private jets for the team's use in recruiting. If through his presence he is able to drag a 1970's basketball operation into the 21st century he should be lauded.
In regards to missing top choices to replace Lindsey and BMac: Neither player was our top choice at their respective position. When the staff didn't have another guard prospect, Collins went all in on BMac. Lindsey's recruiting became easier after he got injured. My point consistently is this staff is highly capable of identifying Big Ten talent and only offers players who can compete at a Big Ten level.
In regards to "you would think that we would win one of these battles given the upward trajectory": NU has the most loaded roster it's had in decades. We are now competing against top tier basketball schools for top talent. The recruiting battles won in the last five years were won with very little in the way of assets. My expectation is that recruiting in the next five years will be a modest tick up from the last five. That will place NU squarely as a top 40 program. The biggest recruiting hurdle will be academics. We still won't be able to compete for 60 percent of the four and five star talent. And, of the 40 percent we can compete, more than half will be indifferent and even turned off at the prospect of a rigorous education. A shiny new stadium and charismatic coach does not fix that.
"I'm just saying that we haven't really seen if we "won" anything with them yet." : Wait a second. Didn't this team just make the NCAA tournament for the first time in its history with Collins recruits? You haven't seen enough from Benson and Falzon to know that they are high quality players? You think that the quality of the most recent recruits may be a step down from what seems to be "typical Collins players"? I think it's statements like this that may lead people to question your bias.
Regarding recruiting of blue chips by former coaches: Foster is the only coach whose recruiting success are comparable to Collins and that team transferred out. That was in a different media and AAU era as well. Falk did well, but wasn't as consistent so his bench wasn't as deep.
You brought up Collins new contract in a statement about recruiting. There are others here and elsewhere who write critically about the fact that Collins has support that his predecessor did not enjoy. Bigger contract, access to jets, new arena on the way, etc., etc. Why does Collins get the benefit of such largesse when his predecessor did not? That, to me, is not a reason to dislike Collins. Collins does not ultimately decide when the University chooses to reconstruct Welsh Ryan. Collins does not approve his new contract. Collins does not choose to make available private jets for the team's use in recruiting. If through his presence he is able to drag a 1970's basketball operation into the 21st century he should be lauded.
Thank you for this bc I think it will ultimate be the biggest issue in landing to tier talent for NU, the fact that NU requires that players do school:
"The biggest recruiting hurdle will be academics. We still won't be able to compete for 60 percent of the four and five star talent. And, of the 40 percent we can compete, more than half will be indifferent and even turned off at the prospect of a rigorous education. A shiny new stadium and charismatic coach does not fix that."
I believe that NU has a formula to graduate athletes but that formula requires a certain amount of commitment but the student athlete to go to class and to show up for the academic program. Its great what Fitz accomplishes in terms of academics and it shows they have figured out the academic side. Still, kids who don't want to deal with academics as a big part of their playing future will be turned off from NU for all sports.
"The biggest recruiting hurdle will be academics. We still won't be able to compete for 60 percent of the four and five star talent. And, of the 40 percent we can compete, more than half will be indifferent and even turned off at the prospect of a rigorous education. A shiny new stadium and charismatic coach does not fix that."
I believe that NU has a formula to graduate athletes but that formula requires a certain amount of commitment but the student athlete to go to class and to show up for the academic program. Its great what Fitz accomplishes in terms of academics and it shows they have figured out the academic side. Still, kids who don't want to deal with academics as a big part of their playing future will be turned off from NU for all sports.
