use of back-up QB's

[FeliSilvestris]

It seems that both back-up QB's 'played' against EIU...but some may object to that use of the word "play"....none attempted a single pass. Was Alviti at least asked to run a "normal" option play (as he may be expected to do in a "real" game) or just limited himself to hand off the FB?
I know Alviti took the snap in the play that resulted in a long Acker's run, but all he did was to hand off the FB.

Apparently our staff already 'know' that Thorson will not suffer any injury this season, and that they will NOT need the back-up QB's for any reason whatsoever (like to show the D a different look or to relief CT if he is having a particularly bad game)....Our staff should probably be making tons of money in the stock market....where knowing what will happen in the future pays big time.

BTW: Look what happened to the Irish starting QB yesterday...unfortunately it could happen to anybody.

 

[phatcat]

It seems that both back-up QB's 'played' against EIU...but some may object to that use of the word "play"....none attempted a single pass. Was Alviti at least asked to run a "normal" option play (as he may be expected to do in a "real" game) or just limited himself to hand off the FB?
I know Alviti took the snap in the play that resulted in a long Acker's run, but all he did was to hand off the FB.

Apparently our staff already 'know' that Thorson will not suffer any injury this season, and that they will NOT need the back-up QB's for any reason whatsoever (like to show the D a different look or to relief CT if he is having a particularly bad game)....Our staff should probably be making tons of money in the stock market....where knowing what will happen in the future pays big time.

BTW: Look what happened to the Irish starting QB yesterday...unfortunately it could happen to anybody.

I also know what's going to happen in the future, you are going to annoy a lot of people.

This isn't Florida State, we don't hang 70 on EIU

 

[FeliSilvestris]

This isn't Florida State, we don't hang 70 on EIU

So, having our back-up QB's attempt a few passes (or in MA's case, a few normal option plays) equates scoring 70 pts...you may be overly-optimistic! Passes need first to be thrown (avoid a sack), not fall in the wrong hands (avoid an INT) and be caught...it's not so simple!! You can also think that by NOT attempting pass plays we deny the opponent the opportunity of a sack or an INT (possibly a pick-6).
Anyhow, we do need our back-up QB's to be ready, since we may need them at any time, and if a game affords opportunities that can help them get ready, we SHOULD use them.

 

[NJCat83588]

So, having our back-up QB's attempt a few passes (or in MA's case, a few normal option plays) equates scoring 70 pts...you may be overly-optimistic! Passes need first to be thrown (avoid a sack), not fall in the wrong hands (avoid an INT) and be caught...it's not so simple!! You can also think that by NOT attempting pass plays we deny the opponent the opportunity of a sack or an INT (possibly a pick-6).
Anyhow, we do need our back-up QB's to be ready, since we may need them at any time, and if a game affords opportunities that can help them get ready, we SHOULD use them.

I'm with Felis on this. Seems pretty stupid not to run the regular offense. It isn't about putting up 70 points, it's about getting some reps throwing the normal passes. Whatever.

 

[Turk]

It seems that both back-up QB's 'played' against EIU...but some may object to that use of the word "play"....none attempted a single pass. Was Alviti at least asked to run a "normal" option play (as he may be expected to do in a "real" game) or just limited himself to hand off the FB?
I know Alviti took the snap in the play that resulted in a long Acker's run, but all he did was to hand off the FB.

Apparently our staff already 'know' that Thorson will not suffer any injury this season, and that they will NOT need the back-up QB's for any reason whatsoever (like to show the D a different look or to relief CT if he is having a particularly bad game)....Our staff should probably be making tons of money in the stock market....where knowing what will happen in the future pays big time.

BTW: Look what happened to the Irish starting QB yesterday...unfortunately it could happen to anybody.

Most will agree with you on this one Feli. I find it interesting how Fitz handles 'out of reach' elements of games. When we are behind in an out of reach game, he leaves all starters in there and says they need experience, when we are ahead in 'out of reach' games, he just runs the clock out and puts in second teamers to run up the middle.

So, if you look at the two situations, it seems to me, that he limits experience and has the team stop playing football, as a sorta professional gesture to the opposing coach. I don't like this at all but I guess nothing is wrong with it. Alviti could have used some experience for sure. At some point this is going to bite us in the ass since we are very good. When he was motioning KQ last week to stop running and fall down to the ground, that was odd as well. The game was out of reach and 23-6 looks a lot better than 16-6 if the playoff committee is making determinations. I know some are saying that we will never be in the playoffs but by the way we are playing, we need to plan.

At the end of the day, there is very little we can bitch about regarding Fitz, but again, alviti really could have used the reps.

 

[SmellyCat]

I've heard comments over the years that QBs need to get used to "game speed." I've never "strapped it on," but honest question: is there a true benefit to getting used to game speed even if it's just to hand the ball off when the game is no longer in doubt?

 

[gocatsgo2003]

It seems that both back-up QB's 'played' against EIU...but some may object to that use of the word "play"....none attempted a single pass. Was Alviti at least asked to run a "normal" option play (as he may be expected to do in a "real" game) or just limited himself to hand off the FB?
I know Alviti took the snap in the play that resulted in a long Acker's run, but all he did was to hand off the FB.

Apparently our staff already 'know' that Thorson will not suffer any injury this season, and that they will NOT need the back-up QB's for any reason whatsoever (like to show the D a different look or to relief CT if he is having a particularly bad game)....Our staff should probably be making tons of money in the stock market....where knowing what will happen in the future pays big time.

BTW: Look what happened to the Irish starting QB yesterday...unfortunately it could happen to anybody.

Or in-game reps against a wildly overmatched opponent mean absolutely nothing in the development of a QB.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

I've heard comments over the years that QBs need to get used to "game speed." I've never "strapped it on," but honest question: is there a true benefit to getting used to game speed even if it's just to hand the ball off when the game is no longer in doubt?

For the vanilla run plays at the end of games, it's more about getting comfortable with the mechanics of getting the signal, relaying it to the line, making any adjustment calls, etc. at a game speed than it is handing off.

Throwing a handful of passes at the end of a blowout isn't going to move the needle in a QB's development. At all.

 

[Windy City Cat Fan]

I'm with Felis on this. Seems pretty stupid not to run the regular offense. It isn't about putting up 70 points, it's about getting some reps throwing the normal passes. Whatever.

I also agree - so it's OK to try to get Hruby a touchdown at the end of the game and effectively "run up the score" but not get some guys you will likely actually need at some point this season some real action? I thought it was cool Hruby was getting carries, but not trying to punch it in at the end.

 

[EvanstonCat]

I also know what's going to happen in the future, you are going to annoy a lot of people.

This isn't Florida State, we don't hang 70 on EIU

Maybe we should. Feli asks a good question here. Why wouldn't we use the 4th quarter to run plays and prepare our 2nd and 3rd string QB? What happen if Thorson goes down and we have to put them into the fray? It's stupid not to try to play ball. Not our job to keep the score down. Resting our starters is already a gesture. And if we are going to go for it on 4th to get Tom Hruby a TD, then why wouldn't we use the 4th quarter to get better as a team?

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Maybe we should. Feli asks a good question here. Why wouldn't we use the 4th quarter to run plays and prepare our 2nd and 3rd string QB? What happen if Thorson goes down and we have to put them into the fray? It's stupid not to try to play ball. Not our job to keep the score down. Resting our starters is already a gesture. And if we are going to go for it on 4th to get Tom Hruby a TD, then why wouldn't we use the 4th quarter to get better as a team?

Because throwing balls against that EIU defense is probably worse preparation than going against our 2s and 3s.

 

[shakes3858]

Because throwing balls against that EIU defense is probably worse preparation than going against our 2s and 3s.

Was that even EIU's first string defense? By the end were they playing their 2s and 3s as well?

 

[NUCat320]

I also know what's going to happen in the future, you are going to annoy a lot of people.

This isn't Florida State, we don't hang 70 on EIU

NU's imperative is not to make EIU feel less bad about itself. It's to win football games. "Running your stuff" with the second team is not running up the score. This was a glorified scrimmage, and, shoot, especially the second unit needs the practice time.

 

[NJCat83588]

Was that even EIU's first string defense? By the end were they playing their 2s and 3s as well?

Not sure how it works for FCS teams, but FBS can only travel with 70 players, so if that is true for EIU then they didn't have any 3's to put in.They only have a max of 65 scholarship players though so the talent drop-off is probably pretty big at the end of the roster.

 

[willycat]

I also know what's going to happen in the future, you are going to annoy a lot of people.

This isn't Florida State, we don't hang 70 on EIU

Why not?

 

[willycat]

It seems that both back-up QB's 'played' against EIU...but some may object to that use of the word "play"....none attempted a single pass. Was Alviti at least asked to run a "normal" option play (as he may be expected to do in a "real" game) or just limited himself to hand off the FB?
I know Alviti took the snap in the play that resulted in a long Acker's run, but all he did was to hand off the FB.

Apparently our staff already 'know' that Thorson will not suffer any injury this season, and that they will NOT need the back-up QB's for any reason whatsoever (like to show the D a different look or to relief CT if he is having a particularly bad game)....Our staff should probably be making tons of money in the stock market....where knowing what will happen in the future pays big time.

BTW: Look what happened to the Irish starting QB yesterday...unfortunately it could happen to anybody.

Well we have already seen what happens when you don't give your back-up QB's quality snaps and your starting QB gets hurt... a humiliating loss to Illinois. What was even more amazing was Fitz with about 6 or 7 minutes on the 4th Quarter clock, just letting in run down and then calling for a TO. Why Fitz Why.

 

[NUCat320]

Why not?

Georgia Tech put up 65 points on Tulane yesterday. In week one, they put up a similar total against (I think) Charleston Southern. They did this because they're the worlds most efficient offensive machine. And they did it by running the ball incredibly well.

They ran their offense and they scored their points. Because their offense is run oriented, should they have spent the fourth quarter throwing short passes?

They continued doing what they do, and they continued doing it well. I don't think there's a problem with NU continuing to do what NU does, especially considering NU doesn't do it well yet.

The good news is, this boring non-argument presumably becomes moot the rest of the year. Bring on the appropriate level of competition!

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Well we have already seen what happens when you don't give your back-up QB's quality snaps and your starting QB gets hurt... a humiliating loss to Illinois. What was even more amazing was Fitz with about 6 or 7 minutes on the 4th Quarter clock, just letting in run down and then calling for a TO. Why Fitz Why.

I wouldn't have minded seeing a pass or two on the third and longs. However, as far as the back ups being prepared due to a few throws against EIU is a stretch.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Well we have already seen what happens when you don't give your back-up QB's quality snaps and your starting QB gets hurt... a humiliating loss to Illinois. What was even more amazing was Fitz with about 6 or 7 minutes on the 4th Quarter clock, just letting in run down and then calling for a TO. Why Fitz Why.

Oliver's performance against Illinois last year had nothing to do with his lack of in-game passes earlier in his career.

 

[Wildcatfootball12]

Please raise your hand if you wish MA or ZO had throw a pass against EIU, maybe for their development, or maybe just for run, or maybe just because as fans we like to see more action

(Everyone raises their hand)

Please raise your hand if you are surprised Fitz we didn't pass the ball?

(No one rasises hand)

Good talk, welcome to NU football

 

[EvanstonCat]

Because throwing balls against that EIU defense is probably worse preparation than going against our 2s and 3s.

Reps is still reps. And it's a real game time situation. Not the same as practicing against our own guys. Sure, it isn't like it's going up against dOSU our even our 1's,, but it's still reps.

 

[EvanstonCat]

I also agree - so it's OK to try to get Hruby a touchdown at the end of the game and effectively "run up the score" but not get some guys you will likely actually need at some point this season some real action? I thought it was cool Hruby was getting carries, but not trying to punch it in at the end.

We did try to punch it in - Fitz even said and defended it as not running it up but trying to get Hruby a TD.

Kinda like having our #1 guy (forget his name with the light sabre) playing RB and trying to score on Illinois when we were up 50-14.

 

[NJCat83588]

Reps is still reps. And it's a real game time situation. Not the same as practicing against our own guys. Sure, it isn't like it's going up against dOSU our even our 1's,, but it's still reps.

Note that the back-up Duke QB went 4-4 for 52 yards in a 55-0 blow-out of NCCU, a team even worse than EIU. David Cutcliffe knows a thing or two about developing QBs and he saw fit to run his offense even though it was like playing against air..........

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Reps is still reps. And it's a real game time situation. Not the same as practicing against our own guys. Sure, it isn't like it's going up against dOSU our even our 1's,, but it's still reps.

Which mean nothing, especially compared to the hundreds of practice reps the QBs have under their belts.

 

[MRCat95]

It seems that both back-up QB's 'played' against EIU...but some may object to that use of the word "play"....none attempted a single pass. Was Alviti at least asked to run a "normal" option play (as he may be expected to do in a "real" game) or just limited himself to hand off the FB?
I know Alviti took the snap in the play that resulted in a long Acker's run, but all he did was to hand off the FB.

Apparently our staff already 'know' that Thorson will not suffer any injury this season, and that they will NOT need the back-up QB's for any reason whatsoever (like to show the D a different look or to relief CT if he is having a particularly bad game)....Our staff should probably be making tons of money in the stock market....where knowing what will happen in the future pays big time.

BTW: Look what happened to the Irish starting QB yesterday...unfortunately it could happen to anybody.

...Or the staff realized that a rep against against EIU's defense is worth less than a rep against our own scout team.

Using your Notre Dame QB injury logic, wouldn't it be unwise to risk injury to your starting AND backup QBs by running them in a game you're up 41 points in the 4th quarter?

 

[willycat]

...Or the staff realized that a rep against against EIU's defense is worth less than a rep against our own scout team.

Using your Notre Dame QB injury logic, wouldn't it be unwise to risk injury to your starting AND backup QBs by running them in a game you're up 41 points in the 4th quarter?

Well our starting QB was out of the game about half way through the 3rd quarter, so he couldn't have gotten injured unless he tripped over the bench. The backups should have been allowed to run the normal offense in preparation for seeing time later in the season. Guess we know that Oliver can throw but not sure if he can run the offense for an extended period and still don't know if Alviti can throw and complete passes in a regular game or even if he can run the option.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Well our starting QB was out of the game about half way through the 3rd quarter, so he couldn't have gotten injured unless he tripped over the bench. The backups should have been allowed to run the normal offense in preparation for seeing time later in the season. Guess we know that Oliver can throw but not sure if he can run the offense for an extended period and still don't know if Alviti can throw and complete passes in a regular game or even if he can run the option.

Doesn't matter one iota what "we" know as fans and the coaches don't need to see Oliver or Alviti throw against a bunch of scrubs to form their opinion.

 

[MRCat95]

The backups should have been allowed to run the normal offense in preparation for seeing time later in the season. Guess we know that Oliver can throw but not sure if he can run the offense for an extended period and still don't know if Alviti can throw and complete passes in a regular game or even if he can run the option.

Wrong!

If I beat up a 2nd grader, does that mean I'd be an adept boxer? Oliver and Alviti would have lit up EIU's reserves just like Corey Acker and Tom Rhuby did.

I don't think our primary concern should be giving Willycat a false sense of comfort in our backup QBs by pummeling a defense that our scout team offense would dominate.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Because throwing balls against that EIU defense is probably worse preparation than going against our 2s and 3s.

You may be grossly underestimating EIU, and may not have checked your statements against this very game.

Fact is NU didn't exactly move the FB at will, even in the first half, when presumably the entire first unit was playing. Our 1st score was just a lowly FG, and our next drive ended much worse: an embarrassing 3-and-out! Although we went on to score 3 TD's in the 1st half, we still had to settle for a FG another time, plus went 4-and-out yet another time...To recap, in 4 different 1H drives we failed to score a TD, including 2 in which we failed to even get a single 1st D...all this presumably with our firs unit....

Hence, it is by no means a given that our second-unit (under our second or 3rd string QB) would have easily scored a bunch of pts on them, if allowed to run the normal offense. Of course, EIU may have replaced some of their D starters, but that wouldn't exactly by NU's problem, right?

Furthermore, EIU has had significant recent success, at the FCS level. Last season was mediocre for them, but in the previous one they finished ranked #4 NATIONALLY, and were #2 for several weeks...then, they nearly beat NIU which also had a great season, and ended the regular season in the top 20.

In that season, EIU themselves blew out a lot of their opponents, including beating Austin Peay 63-7!! and UT-Martin 70-22 (SEVENTY). It seems they didn't show their opponents much mercy.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

You may be grossly underestimating EIU, and may not have checked your statements against this very game.

Fact is NU didn't exactly move the FB at will, even in the first half, when presumably the entire first unit was playing. Our 1st score was just a lowly FG, and our next drive ended much worse: an embarrassing 3-and-out! Although we went on to score 3 TD's in the 1st half, we still had to settle for a FG another time, plus went 4-and-out yet another time...To recap, in 4 different 1H drives we failed to score a TD, including 2 in which we failed to even get a single 1st D...all this presumably with our firs unit....

Hence, it is by no means a given that our second-unit (under our second or 3rd string QB) would have easily scored a bunch of pts on them, if allowed to run the normal offense. Of course, EIU may have replaced some of their D starters, but that wouldn't exactly by NU's problem, right?

Furthermore, EIU has had significant recent success, at the FCS level. Last season was mediocre for them, but in the previous one they finished ranked #4 NATIONALLY, and were #2 for several weeks...then, they nearly beat NIU which also had a great season, and ended the regular season in the top 20.

In that season, EIU themselves blew out a lot of their opponents, including beating Austin Peay 63-7!! and UT-Martin 70-22 (SEVENTY). It seems they didn't show their opponents much mercy.

1) Please stop using "we" and "our." I just don't believe you.

2) EIU is awful. This is far from the team that Garoppolo led to the FCS playoffs. Not even remotely close. As a result, we ran about five offensive plays the entire game, knowing full well that's all we would need to win the game... but that doesn't excuse a lack of physicality.

3) I'm done with you.

 

[Wildcatfootball12]

Western Illinois beat EIU 33-5
Illinois beat Western Illinois 44-0

This suggests 1 of 2 things:
1) EIU is quite good, Western is just way better and Illinois is freaking amazing
2) Illinois is a low tier Big 10 team, Western Illinois is a decent FCS team and EIU is a bad FCS team

Yes the transitive property does not work, but these conclusions are not unreasonable

Option 2 makes a lot more sense, but sure, I guess both are possible

 

[DrillCat]

I think our back ups play at a faster pace at our own practice than against poorly matched EIU.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Western Illinois beat EIU 33-5
Illinois beat Western Illinois 44-0

This suggests 1 of 2 things:
1) EIU is quite good, Western is just way better and Illinois is freaking amazing
2) Illinois is a low tier Big 10 team, Western Illinois is a decent FCS team and EIU is a bad FCS team

Yes the transitive property does not work, but these conclusions are not unreasonable

Option 2 makes a lot more sense, but sure, I guess both are possible

FWIW, EIU actually outgained WIU substantially but got killed by turnovers.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Western Illinois beat EIU 33-5
Illinois beat Western Illinois 44-0

This suggests 1 of 2 things:
2) Illinois is a low tier Big 10 team, Western Illinois is a decent FCS team and EIU is a bad FCS team

As pointed out above, however weak EUI's D may be, they didn't exactly allow NU's FIRST UNIT in the FIRST HALF to move the FB at will. In 4 different 1H drives we failed to score a TD, including 2 in which we failed to even get a single 1st D... Hence, the claim that our 2nd/3rd string QB's would have destroyed EIU if allowed to run the normal O is simply not supported by the evidence in THIS VERY GAME.

Plus, if they are so weak, they shouldn't have been able to stop NU from scoring even with the vanilla O....a team only needs about 3.5 y per play to keep on getting 1D after 1D....if EIU is that weak we should have been able to keep on gaining that even without passing....fact is we didn't....we only scored ONE O TD in the entire second half....

Clearly the actual evidence in this very game does not support the EIU-is-so-weak-that-even-our-practices-are-more-competitive theory.

 

[MRCat95]

You may be grossly underestimating EIU, and may not have checked your statements against this very game.

Clearly the actual evidence in this very game does not support the EIU-is-so-weak-that-even-our-practices-are-more-competitive theory.

It's actually just evidence that you don't have a brain and/or eyeballs.

EIU had also cleared their bench as well. There starters were awful, but their reserves were warm butter.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

s, if they are so weak, they shouldn't have been able to stop NU from scoring even with the vanilla O....a team only needs about 3.5 y per play to keep on getting 1D after 1D....if EIU is that weak we should have been able to keep on gaining that even without passing....fact is we didn't....we only scored ONE O TD in the entire second half....

had also cleared their bench as well. There starters were awful, but their reserves were warm butter.

Did you bothet to read the previous quote?
How on earth did their 'warm butter' reserves manage to hold us to a single O TD for a half, when all we needed to keep on scoring was to get about 3.35 yards per play?
Even if they stacked the proverbial box that shouldn't matter since they were just 'warm butter', right?.....unless of course our reserves were even softer than that....

 

[Just Gary]

I thought it was more important for the Oline backups to get reps and running the ball is perfect for them to get good reps. The timing for the 2nd and 3rd QB is good and yes, I thought short safe passes would be good to see, maybe some of those wide receiver screens. But I wasn't surprised to see the QB handoffs.

In the end, having Oliver or Alviti attempt a pass or two makes no difference. Thorson got zero reps last year before he faced Stanford.

 

[MRCat95]

Did you bothet to read the previous quote?
How on earth did their 'warm butter' reserves manage to hold us to a single O TD for a half, when all we needed to keep on scoring was to get about 3.35 yards per play?
Even if they stacked the proverbial box that shouldn't matter since they were just 'warm butter', right?.....unless of course our reserves were even softer than that....

If you really thought NU was trying to score in the whole second half, see my original point about blindness/brainless.

NU had 4 offensive possessions in the 2nd half.

1) 89 yard "warm butter" TD drive.
2) 3 and out when Thorson failed to connect with Nagel on a 3rd and 6.
3) 54 yard "warm butter" drive with NU reserves that ended with a (4th string) Austin Anderson fumble.
4) 74 yard "warm butter" drive with NU (deep) reserves that ended with the walk-on linebacker Tom Hruby coming up short at the goal line at the end of the game.

The 2nd and especially the 3rd and 4th drives were manned by NU reserves running 3-4 plays who mauled EIU's defense (made up largely of their own reserves).

 

[NJCat83588]

If you really thought NU was trying to score in the whole second half, see my original point about blindness/brainless.

NU had 4 offensive possessions in the 2nd half.

1) 89 yard "warm butter" TD drive.
2) 3 and out when Thorson failed to connect with Nagel on a 3rd and 6.
3) 54 yard "warm butter" drive with NU reserves that ended with a (4th string) Austin Anderson fumble.
4) 74 yard "warm butter" drive with NU (deep) reserves that ended with the walk-on linebacker Tom Hruby coming up short at the goal line at the end of the game.

The 2nd and especially the 3rd and 4th drives were manned by NU reserves running 3-4 plays who mauled EIU's defense (made up largely of their own reserves).

Felis obviously didn't watch the game or he wouldn't sound like such a moron.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Feels obviously didn't watch the game or he wouldn't sound like such a moron.

Don't give him that kind of credit. He can sound like a moron regardless of the situation.