Check out the story today on InsideNU.com, pretty interesting stuff!
http://www.insidenu.com/2015/11/2/9...rthwestern-transfer-scholarship-chris-collins
http://www.insidenu.com/2015/11/2/9...rthwestern-transfer-scholarship-chris-collins
Vassar
- Thread starter NJCat83588
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All of the scholarships the B1G gives out now are 4-year deals that can't really be pulled unless the athlete does something wrong to no longer be in good standing.
What this means is that Collins told Vassar he wouldn't be part of the basketball program and Vassar couldn't find a favorable transfer spot.
What this means is that Collins told Vassar he wouldn't be part of the basketball program and Vassar couldn't find a favorable transfer spot.
If we want to be honest and call it what it is, this was just a poorly executed Creaning of an NU basketball player because Vassar (either independently or with the NU basketball program's help) couldn't find a basketball team to play for.
Yep. And this is exactly the sort of thing the four-year scholarship is designed to protect the player against.
How do you know what Collins told Vassar?
Isn't it plausible that Vassar saw himself playing a much more central role on this team than he has the talent or ability for?
If the message to Vassar was, "you're a good spot time defender buy you haven't shown an ability to manage the offense and you are not a good scorer....so you'll be playing spot minutes." Isn't it more likely that he put himself on the market because he thought he could do more....and then found out the market wasn't buying?
Frankly, I don't think it's a big issue until people start making accusations. The fact that he's in his second year and getting an NU education is what's important.
It must make it difficult. Good that we are honoring the scholarship. Why didn't the same thing happen with Turner? Isn't it similar circumstances? You aren't playing or practicing but you count against our scholarships. Cannot have too many that don't work out or it will cause problems.
What are you talking about!? Please give one shred of evidence that suggests Collins told Vassar he didn't want him on the team...
Here is a shred, taken form the article in question:
"But he wants to still play," Collins said. "So it's not like he's definitely going to be here the whole time. It's just he didn't get what he was looking for, and he's looking for the right spot. He could leave at [the end of the] quarter, he could leave at the end of the year, he could leave next [year.]"
Johnny wants to play, but isn't on the team. Seems pretty obvious that it is because Collins doesn't want him to me.......
He wants to play, but clearly not at NU. Why? Who knows. But nowhere have I seen it said Collins has told me he can no longer wear the uniform, and unless you can actually present that, the accusations are poor form.
Or, maybe he quit the team with the intention of transferring to another program, found out there was not suitable match, and decided to sit it out until he can find another team. I still don't see anything that indicates it was the decision of Collins.
1. He's not on the team.
2. He still counts against the scholarship limits.
3. Collins has said that he still wants to play.
There's not a universe or program in existence where if a guy voluntarily says "Hey coach, I don't want to play here anymore, I'm going to transfer" where that scholarship isn't immediately pulled and used somewhere else. At that point, he would no longer be in good standing with the athletic department and his scholly could be pulled.
As it stands, it's very clear that he's in good standing with the AD and the university, which is why he still counts against the limits despite not being on the team.
To be clear, I'm not really accusing anyone of anything. This is how big programs work. It works out because, of course, there are plenty of people willing to spin a tale of complete administrative innocence. Go to an Alabama football board and I'm sure you'll read the University Certified Version of Events (TM) about oversigning and medical hardships.
Most likely because Turner seemingly had problems with Collins where they didn't "mesh" and voluntarily left the program, thereby allowing us to recharacterize the scholarship without running afoul of rules. Or is he no longer on scholarship? I don't remember where the situation ended up other than Turner being a regular student at NU now.
Is it ok to throw accusations out about other coaches? Nobody seems to have a problem accusing Tom Creen of this. We've trashed Harbaugh's recruiting practices. We rant about the SEC's over-signing practices relentlessly. How much more information do we have about that? Bottom line, Collins has had a lot of guys leave the team during his short tenor. Lieberman, Ajou, Turner, Abrahamson, Vassar. Is this a pattern? Yep. Do I care? Not really.
My guess is that he planned to transfer (thus left the team). When he couldn't find a place, NU told him they'd honor his scholie...BUT, it would be silly for him to return to the team, ESPECIALLY if he's still looking elsewhere, right?
Yes and no. He has 5 years to use his 4 years of eligibility. So he might as well sit out this season and be immediately eligible next if he transfers. But if he is still an NU student next year, he'd be silly not to play (or at least be on the team) because his remaining years are "use it or lose it" eligibility-wise.
Doesn't work that way. You have to sit out a year after transferring. Essentially, by staying at NU this year, Vassar will sit out two years if he transfers (this year and a year after he transfers).
I was wrong, you are correct. From the NCAA on transfers:
"4 Take a closer look at the rules Understand the basic transfer rule
If you transfer from a two-year school and do not meet the transfer requirements, or you transfer from a four-year school, whether you are an international or domestic student-athlete, this basic transfer rule applies to you:
You must spend one academic year in residence at your new school before you are eligible to compete. "
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Sorry but you have and your so called evidence is shaky at best. He is not on the team because he previously had very little playing time. Guessing that is because of his BB ability or lack thereof and realized that he would play even less as new recruits arrived. So he stated that he was going to transfer but guess he hasn't been able to find a fit. He is getting a first class free education, without working out and practicing like the other 12 scholarship athletes and quite sure he will transfer to another program when the opportunity presents itself. Also let's remember that this is the same young man who attended something like 4 or 5 high schools. Hope in the end that it all works out for him.
Remember, it's only bad when other schools do it. When NU does it, it's either not what it looks like or completely justified because (reasons).
Also, I don't care either. We hired a coach from a big-boy program and he's acting like one. Good.
Completely agree. He's living with the consequence of a recruiting reach. Hopefully there will be few of those in the future. And the student is getting a free education at a top University, don't feel the slightest bit bad for him.
I still think it's ridiculous to think that Collins told him, "You're not on the team anymore. Sorry..."
Before we start going down this road and calling this a "pattern," can we acknowledge that every program who brings in a new coach from the outside has some level of significant turnover from the previous regime? I'll be happy to call that level two or three scholarship players.
One other item of note: Both Lieberman and Ajou have left their second schools. I'll leave it to others to calculate the total D1 minutes this year for the players who left/were "Creaned."
Well you don't wanna Crean a good player, that's not the point.
You're right that when a coaching change occurs, a ton of turn over usually takes place. I'm not at all concerned about these situations.
Glad your finally not concerned. How many good players have been "Cremed" by CC? In fact how many players who deserve Div I scholarships have been "Creamed". Didn't think so.Well you don't wanna Crean a good player, that's not the point.
You're right that when a coaching change occurs, a ton of turn over usually takes place. I'm not at all concerned about these situations.
I was never concerned, willy. I was just calling it what it was.
Also, I sincerely hope no players get "creamed"...unless they are into that sort of thing.
Carmody did the exact same thing when he came on board. He Creaned several guys...
We seem to be splitting the finest of hairs on this thread. It's pretty obvious to me: NU is pretty much like every other D-1 school -- when we recruit kids who can't play as well as we thought they might, we politely ask them to leave. With the new four-year scholarship rules in place, now we have to live with the consequences of making recruiting mistakes. To me, that's a good thing, don't make the kids suffer for recruiting mistakes.
This may be splitting another hair, but I don't think Collins asked anyone to leave. Brutally honest is different than telling a kid he should leave.
As others have posted, Lieberman, Abrahamson, Ajou and Turner all left the program. Not one of them subsequently said Collins asked them to leave. Kale said Collins was a total hard ass and Collins made it clear early that Kale's role was off the bench. Lieberman and Ajou didn't even play during junk time. A lot was reported on Turner having a very different view of his role and abilities than Collins.
Some players step up to the criticism and challenge. Exhibits A and B are Tap and Sanjay. Some wilt or go and try somewhere else.
Vassar seems like a good kid who has incredible physical gifts. But he didn't show any signs that he could earn time at the point ahead of BMac and Ash, not to mention Tre.
A poster from BMac's neck of the woods posted here that Vassar's impending departure was common knowledge among the team for months. So, Collins told one of his players he should leave and then continued to play him sporadically throughout the season?
It all reads like Vassar wanted something very different and was not asked to leave.
And on that point I don't like the criticism that Vassar changed schools a lot (suggesting the kid is hinky). In high school his mom moved for work so I don't know that should be put at the feet of a 19 year old. And now, with his physical gifts and love for basketball, I can't blame him for wanting to go to a school where he plays 20 minutes a game.
Sorry to piss on everyone's "let's shit on Collins" parade, but maybe nobody did anything wrong in this case.
You say potato...
"You're not as good as you think you are and, at best, you're going to receive very limited minutes off the end of the bench and no attention in practice. But, you know, stick around if you want!"
Oh, so it's the players' fault for wilting under the pressure!
He barely got walk-on minutes, first off, and secondly, what was Collins supposed to do, cut him midseason?
Collins sure sounds frustrated that he didn't leave, though.
Here I agree completely. His record of transferring high schools is, from what we know, in no way his own fault.
Who's shitting on Collins? Who said he did anything wrong? I, for one, fully support him in this. I just don't like pretending this is something it isn't, or that NU is somehow morally superior to the countless D1 schools who do this sort of thing all the time. Someone stated upthread that Carmody did the same thing when he came aboard. Of course he did! Everyone does. It's a cutthroat business.
" Oh, so it's the players' fault for wilting under the pressure! "
No, it's the coaches'. The players had no idea they were receiving a full ride to play basketball for a school in the top league in the country. And when they performed well below the level required to compete in that league they were....oh my gosh....yelled at and benched.
"Who's shitting on Collins?"
When did accusing a coach of Creaning a player become a compliment?
Six players have left NU in the last two years, which were the first two years of Collins regime. Two of those were walk ons. The only Collins recruit who left is still at NU and taking a full course load. Another scholarship player left competitive sports and is finishing his degree at NU. So, for those of you in the Illinois militia, half of the NU mens bball scholarship players who left under Collins are still NU students. Half.
Crean has been at IU for seven years during which time 15 scholarship players have departed. Eight scholarship players have left IU in the last two years (since Collins arrival at NU).
None of the 15 IU players stayed to finish a degree.
NU is different because the priority is and will always be the education. Creaning is pushing a kid off the team and out of the school. Putting sports ahead of school Neither the coach nor the athletic director are so empowered at NU.
No, it's the coaches'. The players had no idea they were receiving a full ride to play basketball for a school in the top league in the country. And when they performed well below the level required to compete in that league they were....oh my gosh....yelled at and benched.
"Who's shitting on Collins?"
When did accusing a coach of Creaning a player become a compliment?
Six players have left NU in the last two years, which were the first two years of Collins regime. Two of those were walk ons. The only Collins recruit who left is still at NU and taking a full course load. Another scholarship player left competitive sports and is finishing his degree at NU. So, for those of you in the Illinois militia, half of the NU mens bball scholarship players who left under Collins are still NU students. Half.
Crean has been at IU for seven years during which time 15 scholarship players have departed. Eight scholarship players have left IU in the last two years (since Collins arrival at NU).
None of the 15 IU players stayed to finish a degree.
NU is different because the priority is and will always be the education. Creaning is pushing a kid off the team and out of the school. Putting sports ahead of school Neither the coach nor the athletic director are so empowered at NU.
I can't see anything wrong here. This is what happens when a new coach comes in. Even for players recruited by the current coach, transferring increasingly is a way of life in college basketball. Here's a link to a study published by SI.com:
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/07/29/top-100-high-school-recruits-transfer-behavior-study
I'll get concerned if transfers reach the Kevin O'Neill level.
It's being used synonymously with pushing players out of the program. I don't think anyone believes that Collins is a rampaging ass like Crean. I certainly don't.
I will say that it takes a particularly narrow mind to argue that a coach benching a player and making it clear that player is not in the team's long-term plans is somehow not the same as the coach telling that player to leave. With only 13 scholarships, recruiting mistakes can really limit a team's flexibility. It is in a coach's best interest to free up those scholarships as soon as possible.
It's sports. If you don't want the coach to hold that opinion it's pretty simple, change his mind. And I don't think Collins would every say, "you won't play here..." More likely he'd say, "the way you're playing now, I can't put you on the floor."
Kale changed his situation and got more minutes. But he came to understand reality and that in order to play all the time he had to move from the Big Ten to the Missouri Valley Conference.
Collins has no control over how long Vassar will be at NU. NU is not Indiana, so the coach can't free up anything.
I suspect the latter. Pretty hard to rationalize "I intend to transfer" with being part of the NU "basketball family".
I thought scholarships were 1 year renewable each of 4 years? That's how it was up to just a few years ago for sure.
Also, what happened to Turner and a few others who were part of a house cleaning when BC left? Why Vassar? Something is different with Vassar.
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