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"Who needs good relief pitching when you're scoring 5 runs a game?"

WaveJumper

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Mar 13, 2002
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I can think of one NL central team that definitely could use better relief out of the bull pen.

I don't know how many saves the Cub bullpen has blown this season (so far), but it sure seems like way, way too many.
 
I can think of one NL central team that definitely could use better relief out of the bull pen.

I don't know how many saves the Cub bullpen has blown this season (so far), but it sure seems like way, way too many.
Holy crap. I stopped watching thinking it was over!!! How you been Wave?
 
I can think of one NL central team that definitely could use better relief out of the bull pen.

I don't know how many saves the Cub bullpen has blown this season (so far), but it sure seems like way, way too many.

That loss is on Maddon. Happ misplayed two playable ground balls that a good second baseman would have made and ended the game. With a 4 run lead and an injury plagued bullpen, why wouldn't you bring in a defensive replacement for Happ, who is clearly in the game for his bat.

I think the Cubs season and the Maddon era likely ended last night. This team just is missing something. As much as it pains me, it may be time to shake this team up and in my opinion that may mean looking to trade Kris Bryant.
 
Ask knowledgeable Phillies fans who watch Harper every game what they think of Harper and his contract. Not worth it.
Yeah maybe they feel like two 12 million dollar players would be a better investment.

But seriously, for that much money, you can't be an above average player. You must be a star. It's only one year, but he's not doing as well as the guy they traded back to my Cleveland team (Carlos Santana)

Not a fan of albatross contracts, although I'm enjoying watching the Tigers suffer through the last several years of Miguel Cabrera
 
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Harper has an .864 OPS yet some people are calling him a bust. Got it.
He’s 24th in the NL in that stat, closer to Heyward than to Yelich and Bellinger. He’s paid to be better than he’s been.

(Walk off slams are sweet tho.)
 
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Holy crap. I stopped watching thinking it was over!!! How you been Wave?

Pretty good for being as old as I am. Recovering from a 2 level spinal fusion. Probably miss all the home games this year.
 
That loss is on Maddon. Happ misplayed two playable ground balls that a good second baseman would have made and ended the game. With a 4 run lead and an injury plagued bullpen, why wouldn't you bring in a defensive replacement for Happ, who is clearly in the game for his bat.

I think the Cubs season and the Maddon era likely ended last night. This team just is missing something. As much as it pains me, it may be time to shake this team up and in my opinion that may mean looking to trade Kris Bryant.
That was awful. The removal of Darvish was bad too. Joe knows the bullpen is absolutely brutal. Darvish just completed a 1-2-3 7th with 2 K’s and 9 total pitches. He was at 92 pitches at the end of 7. Joe then took no responsibility by saying Darvish said he was done. Sure seems odd that a SP would “breeze” through the game, dominate the last inning he was in and then wave off for the next inning. That’s $126M for a guy that can’t throw more than 92 pitches? He had another inning or at least a few batters. Not buying it, but Joe always has an explanation for unusual moves.

Theo deserves some scrutiny too. Montgomery wanted out, but why not wait till the end of the season. Traded him for a few Louisville sluggers. Who is the last RP the Cubs has come through the system that has been any good for any extended period of time? Theo should know by now that Joe has an itchy trigger finger and tends to ware out a bullpen. 3 on the injury list now.
 
That loss is on Maddon. Happ misplayed two playable ground balls that a good second baseman would have made and ended the game. With a 4 run lead and an injury plagued bullpen, why wouldn't you bring in a defensive replacement for Happ, who is clearly in the game for his bat.

I think the Cubs season and the Maddon era likely ended last night. This team just is missing something. As much as it pains me, it may be time to shake this team up and in my opinion that may mean looking to trade Kris Bryant.
Agree that Happ and Bote, who committed an error to get that inning under, should have been replaced. But all they had on the bench was Kemp and yet they have their best fielding infielder stuck in Iowa.
 
Agree that Happ and Bote, who committed an error to get that inning under, should have been replaced. But all they had on the bench was Kemp and yet they have their best fielding infielder stuck in Iowa.

Was Baez not available? Put Baez in at short to get three outs and move Bote to 2nd. Bite is a much better defensive 2nd basemen than Happ.
 
Yeah maybe they feel like two 12 million dollar players would be a better investment.

But seriously, for that much money, you can't be an above average player. You must be a star. It's only one year, but he's not doing as well as the guy they traded back to my Cleveland team (Carlos Santana)

Not a fan of albatross contracts, although I'm enjoying watching the Tigers suffer through the last several years of Miguel Cabrera
Harper is on pace for about 4 fWAR. At $8M per WAR, he’s worth about $32M this year. The AAV of his deal is about $25M.

The problem with stars is there scarcity. Roster spots are valuable too. You can’t just say a team should go out and get 2 3-WAR players to make up for one 6-WAR guy. You can only play one guy at one position at a time. And those 25 spots need to include 12 pitchers, and sometimes 13. That leaves 12-13 spots for 8 positions. A guy who can play everyday and give you 4 WAR is pretty valuable.

Maybe the Phillies should have just traded for Trout, yelich or Acuna instead.
 
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That loss is on Maddon. Happ misplayed two playable ground balls that a good second baseman would have made and ended the game. With a 4 run lead and an injury plagued bullpen, why wouldn't you bring in a defensive replacement for Happ, who is clearly in the game for his bat.

I think the Cubs season and the Maddon era likely ended last night. This team just is missing something. As much as it pains me, it may be time to shake this team up and in my opinion that may mean looking to trade Kris Bryant.
Wow.... giving up so soon? Do you want to trade places in the standings with my Reds? We finally decided as a fan base that the season ended this week too after the unfortunate split with the Cubs (we have bullpen issues too) and then an ugly sweep in DC. So, for Cubs' fans to give up already is kind of ridiculous. But I understand the frustration.
 
Wow.... giving up so soon? Do you want to trade places in the standings with my Reds? We finally decided as a fan base that the season ended this week too after the unfortunate split with the Cubs (we have bullpen issues too) and then an ugly sweep in DC. So, for Cubs' fans to give up already is kind of ridiculous. But I understand the frustration.

I just don’t see this team breaking out of the pattern of inconsistency that they have demonstrated this year. They are playing wack a mole. They fix one problem and then another one develops elsewhere. A team who plays so poorly on the road doesn’t make the playoffs and if by chance they do, they are not going anywhere.
 
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I just don’t see this team breaking out of the pattern of inconsistency that they have demonstrated this year. They are playing wack a mole. They fix one problem and then another one develops elsewhere. A team who plays so poorly on the road doesn’t make the playoffs and if by chance they do, they are not going anywhere.
Who in the Central is going to beat them? St. Louis? They're more Jekyll and Hyde than the Cubs. The Brewers? Maybe, but they are up and down too. The Reds and Pirates are out of it. I think this is still the Cubs' division to lose. Now.... can they beat the Dodgers.....?
 
Who in the Central is going to beat them? St. Louis? They're more Jekyll and Hyde than the Cubs. The Brewers? Maybe, but they are up and down too. The Reds and Pirates are out of it. I think this is still the Cubs' division to lose. Now.... can they beat the Dodgers.....?
Cubs remind me of the 85 Bears. Champions with a young core that were supposed to be multiple title winners, but fade away without fulfilling that promise. Something clearly is missing and it’s just not a horrible bullpen.
 
Who in the Central is going to beat them? St. Louis? They're more Jekyll and Hyde than the Cubs. The Brewers? Maybe, but they are up and down too. The Reds and Pirates are out of it. I think this is still the Cubs' division to lose. Now.... can they beat the Dodgers.....?

My money is on the Brewers. Counsell is one hell of a manager.
 
Who in the Central is going to beat them? St. Louis? They're more Jekyll and Hyde than the Cubs. The Brewers? Maybe, but they are up and down too. The Reds and Pirates are out of it. I think this is still the Cubs' division to lose. Now.... can they beat the Dodgers.....?
Trust me, the Cards are not a threat.

Don't write off the Reds. They are 6.5 games out. Their Pythagorean records says they should be .5 out. They have good starting pitching (the roster expansion works against them a bit). Guys like Puig, Votto, and Suarez are capable of going on tears. They just got Freddy Galvis for free. He's an upgrade at 2B.
 
Harper is on pace for about 4 fWAR. At $8M per WAR, he’s worth about $32M this year. The AAV of his deal is about $25M.

The problem with stars is there scarcity. Roster spots are valuable too. You can’t just say a team should go out and get 2 3-WAR players to make up for one 6-WAR guy. You can only play one guy at one position at a time. And those 25 spots need to include 12 pitchers, and sometimes 13. That leaves 12-13 spots for 8 positions. A guy who can play everyday and give you 4 WAR is pretty valuable.

Maybe the Phillies should have just traded for Trout, yelich or Acuna instead.
This is a fair point. Great talent is a “build versus buy” decision, and while the Phillies would have preferred to have, say, Acuña, Albies, Soroka, and Pache in their pipeline, they, uhhhh, didn’t. (Guys, the Braves are fun.)

It’s to their credit that they made the move , and also Harper should be better. His teammates like him, at least when he’s jacking walk-off grand slams.
 
Was Baez not available? Put Baez in at short to get three outs and move Bote to 2nd. Bite is a much better defensive 2nd basemen than Happ.
Easy to criticize when you aren't paying attention. Baez was sick, and Heyward was hurt. Kemp and Lucroy were the only available bench players, and Kemp had already been used to pinch-hit for Darvish. Madden had no other options. You can't blame Madden for the bullpen's inability to hold a 5-run lead for two innings. It would be like blaming Fitz for the QB fumbling the snap on a victory formation play.
 
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Trust me, the Cards are not a threat.

Don't write off the Reds. They are 6.5 games out. Their Pythagorean records says they should be .5 out. They have good starting pitching (the roster expansion works against them a bit). Guys like Puig, Votto, and Suarez are capable of going on tears. They just got Freddy Galvis for free. He's an upgrade at 2B.
Don't do this to me. I am emotionally exhausted from jumping on and off the Reds' train this season. The problem with the Reds is that as soon as they start to make some noise and the games get meaningful, they choke. Case in point this past weekend. They were on a roll and starting to close the gap in the NL Central. They had the division leading Cubs in town for the biggest 4-game series in years for the Reds. They promptly crapped the bed in the opener to blunt some of the excitement. But, they then turned it back on and took the next two games in exciting fashion including a pretty dominant 10-1 win. They went into a huge Sunday game with their ace on the mound. Things were looking good - up 3-0 with their ace doing pretty well. Then the wheels fell off. The Cubs battled back and then punished the inept Reds' bullpen to steal a 6-3 victory. The Reds followed that up by getting thoroughly embarrassed in a 3-game sweep in DC that pretty much ended things.

But...... they then shut down the Cardinals last night and now sit, as you say, 6.5 out. The roller coaster heads back up again. Its a rough ride, but I guess it beats the hell out of the past four years where they sucked all season.
 
Easy to criticize when you aren't paying attention. Baez was sick, and Heyward was hurt. Kemp and Lucroy were the only available bench players, and Kemp had already been used to pinch-hit for Darvish. Madden had no other options. You can't blame Madden for the bullpen's inability to hold a 5-run lead for two innings. It would be like blaming Fitz for the QB fumbling the snap on a victory formation play.

I didn’t watch the whole game. I knew Baez was sick but my question is was he in uniform available to pinch hit or for spot duty? If not, then there is really nothing he could have done. I still would not completely lay it on the bullpen. Wick pitched well enough to get out of that but his middle infielders failed him.
 
Trust me, the Cards are not a threat.

Don't write off the Reds. They are 6.5 games out. Their Pythagorean records says they should be .5 out. They have good starting pitching (the roster expansion works against them a bit). Guys like Puig, Votto, and Suarez are capable of going on tears. They just got Freddy Galvis for free. He's an upgrade at 2B.
Puig was traded to the Indians.
 
I didn’t watch the whole game. I knew Baez was sick but my question is was he in uniform available to pinch hit or for spot duty? If not, then there is really nothing he could have done. I still would not completely lay it on the bullpen. Wick pitched well enough to get out of that but his middle infielders failed him.
Could have done a double switch when Kemp PH.
 
Harper is on pace for about 4 fWAR. At $8M per WAR, he’s worth about $32M this year. The AAV of his deal is about $25M.

The problem with stars is there scarcity. Roster spots are valuable too. You can’t just say a team should go out and get 2 3-WAR players to make up for one 6-WAR guy. You can only play one guy at one position at a time. And those 25 spots need to include 12 pitchers, and sometimes 13. That leaves 12-13 spots for 8 positions. A guy who can play everyday and give you 4 WAR is pretty valuable.

Maybe the Phillies should have just traded for Trout, yelich or Acuna instead.
oh, my error. he's definitely worth it then. Otherwise, they'd be 12 games back instead of 8. But they are in the hunt for the prized wild card!!

I'm by no means an advanced stat geek, but this link shows him between 80-120 best in WAR depending on if you do just offensive. Perhaps another shows him higher, I don't know. Hey, if you've got 250M, to burn, go ahead.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders/_/year/2019/type/seasonal/alltime/false/count/51/sort/OFF

I'm pretty happy with how the team I follow (Cleveland) manages their team. They had their renaissance around the same time as the Cats, and have been in the playoffs about half the time since then, and have (lost) 3 world series. And pretty much every single time they've made a long term contract with a free agent, he immediately bursts into flames. no thanks. Meantime, I live in Balt and get to witness the Chris Davis debacle daily, or at least when the manager is kind enough to play him.
 
oh, my error. he's definitely worth it then. Otherwise, they'd be 12 games back instead of 8. But they are in the hunt for the prized wild card!!

I'm by no means an advanced stat geek, but this link shows him between 80-120 best in WAR depending on if you do just offensive. Perhaps another shows him higher, I don't know. Hey, if you've got 250M, to burn, go ahead.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders/_/year/2019/type/seasonal/alltime/false/count/51/sort/OFF

I'm pretty happy with how the team I follow (Cleveland) manages their team. They had their renaissance around the same time as the Cats, and have been in the playoffs about half the time since then, and have (lost) 3 world series. And pretty much every single time they've made a long term contract with a free agent, he immediately bursts into flames. no thanks. Meantime, I live in Balt and get to witness the Chris Davis debacle daily, or at least when the manager is kind enough to play him.
He’s #41 in fWAR, which is fangraphs’ version that includes base running and defense.

Harper is only 26. His best days should be ahead of him (on average, players have their best seasons at age 27-29.
 
Yes, but that opened up a spot to call up The Punisher!!
Clearly they had a surplus of OF. Good move to get Bauer by using Puig as part of the deal.

Great move to get Galvis off waivers. He’s a solid bench guy on a good team and solves the problem at 2B.

Now the Jays are left with some young guys named Bichette and Biggio in their middle infield. Makes me feel old.
 
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Was Baez not available? Put Baez in at short to get three outs and move Bote to 2nd. Bite is a much better defensive 2nd basemen than Happ.
Baez sick with a high fever. But he was seen in the dugout, which I don't quite understand.
 
This is a fair point. Great talent is a “build versus buy” decision, and while the Phillies would have preferred to have, say, Acuña, Albies, Soroka, and Pache in their pipeline, they, uhhhh, didn’t. (Guys, the Braves are fun.)

It’s to their credit that they made the move , and also Harper should be better. His teammates like him, at least when he’s jacking walk-off grand slams.
Harper could have been a Cub but as we all know the Ricketts family is "broke". Hell he even named his dog, "Wrigley"!
 
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Harper could have been a Cub but as we all know the Ricketts family is "broke". Hell he even named his dog, "Wrigley"!
Silly Willy, the Cubs are at $203 M in payroll, which puts them one middling veteran reliever away from the luxury tax. Then there’s this thing about getting Baez, Bryant and Rizzo signed to long term deals (the first two guys are in their arbitration years).
 
Silly Willy, the Cubs are at $203 M in payroll, which puts them one middling veteran reliever away from the luxury tax. Then there’s this thing about getting Baez, Bryant and Rizzo signed to long term deals (the first two guys are in their arbitration years).
The issue is they had to overpay in the free agent market to plug holes, primarily in the starting rotation. The Cubs haven’t developed any SP except Hendricks. I think Lester was a pretty good signing because they needed a leader of the staff on and off the field. Darvish and Chatwood both have very bad contracts. JHey was way overpaid. They traded their 3 top prospects (Torres, Jimenez, Cease) for pitching. All 3 would be starting for them next year. Cubs are now paying the price for the rental of Chapman. It’s hard to blast that trade in that they finally got a ring with Chapman closing the door.

You forgot to include Willy Contreas in players that the Cubs will need to pay. I think they will be forced to trade one of their big 4 position players. KB is the likely candidate as he will bring a strong return and Baez isn’t going anywhere. Willy plays a hard position to fill and Rizzo just won’t bring the return of the other 3.
 
The issue is they had to overpay in the free agent market to plug holes, primarily in the starting rotation. The Cubs haven’t developed any SP except Hendricks. I think Lester was a pretty good signing because they needed a leader of the staff on and off the field. Darvish and Chatwood both have very bad contracts. JHey was way overpaid. They traded their 3 top prospects (Torres, Jimenez, Cease) for pitching. All 3 would be starting for them next year. Cubs are now paying the price for the rental of Chapman. It’s hard to blast that trade in that they finally got a ring with Chapman closing the door.

You forgot to include Willy Contreas in players that the Cubs will need to pay. I think they will be forced to trade one of their big 4 position players. KB is the likely candidate as he will bring a strong return and Baez isn’t going anywhere. Willy plays a hard position to fill and Rizzo just won’t bring the return of the other 3.
Yup. They certainly benefitted from all those terrible seasons in terms of draft position, and picked well. But the 5 man rotation alone accounts for $85M in payroll this year. That exceeds the total payroll in Pittsburgh and Miami, and is just $3.5 M shy of what the Rays are paying. Wow.
 
The issue is they had to overpay in the free agent market to plug holes, primarily in the starting rotation. The Cubs haven’t developed any SP except Hendricks. I think Lester was a pretty good signing because they needed a leader of the staff on and off the field. Darvish and Chatwood both have very bad contracts. JHey was way overpaid. They traded their 3 top prospects (Torres, Jimenez, Cease) for pitching. All 3 would be starting for them next year. Cubs are now paying the price for the rental of Chapman. It’s hard to blast that trade in that they finally got a ring with Chapman closing the door.

You forgot to include Willy Contreas in players that the Cubs will need to pay. I think they will be forced to trade one of their big 4 position players. KB is the likely candidate as he will bring a strong return and Baez isn’t going anywhere. Willy plays a hard position to fill and Rizzo just won’t bring the return of the other 3.
Back when Theo was a genius, he was lauded for his “draft hitters because they’re reliable prospects” strategy. Baez, Bryant, Schwarber, Almora (ish) are all high picks that became solid players. It’s just that the trade/free agent arms haven’t worked out...
 
Silly Willy, the Cubs are at $203 M in payroll, which puts them one middling veteran reliever away from the luxury tax. Then there’s this thing about getting Baez, Bryant and Rizzo signed to long term deals (the first two guys are in their arbitration years).

Hilarious to me how many fans don't realize the lux tax is an ipso facto salary cap in baseball these days
 
Hilarious to me how many fans don't realize the lux tax is an ipso facto salary cap in baseball these days
I have listened to many Cardinal fans complain about Bill "de wallet" DeWitt not jacking payroll up to $200M to sign [insert your favorite pricey FA here]. They seem to forget that the owners shelled out $365M of their own cash to build a stadium (borrowed about $300M of it), and have maintained a top 10ish payroll despite being a smaller market team with limited media value. Most importantly, they have 2 championships under his tenure.

The Ricketts have plowed gobs of money into WF (just to keep it from falling apart) and redevelopment, and have a top 3 payroll, and won a WS.

Yet all fans see is "rich guy who didn't buy the $300M free agent, and thus he's a cheapass." Makes you want to gouge your eyes with a spork.
 
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