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Why doesn't this article say CFL? YO Klemman

shakes3858

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http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/04/ohio-state-cardale-jones-rips-ncaa-as-leaves-for-nfl

Cardale Jones rips the NCAA as he leaves for NFL

Cardale posed the question: Why shouldn't a collegiate athlete be able to use their OWN likeness/brand to benefit themselves but yet the @NCAA can sell there jerseys

Well, Cardale the answer is because your likeness/brand is virtually worthless without the connection of Ohio State and the NCAA. Second of all, it's what you willingly signed up for. You signed up that while you are playing at Ohio State, that's the deal. Now you want a better deal after you realized that you're not going to the NFL, but are going to be making between 51,000 and 100,000 playing in Canada or 108,000 being on an NFL practice squad, if you're lucky. Third and finally, it's not actually an NCAA exclusive thing. The WWE has been doing this for years. They sign contracts with their talent... and they own their name and likeness forever. So anytime the Rock appears as the Rock in a movie... The WWE gets a cut. Now the Rock could appear as Dwayne Johnson, but nobody wants to market a movie with Dwayne Johnson. Who is that? Some former U Miami football player that washed out? No, that movie sucks. Wait, it's the Rock? Yeah, we want him. There's another wrestler that was born John Felix Anthony Cena. Guess what, the WWE owns John Cena too! Anytime John Cena makes an appearance, the WWE takes their cut. Why? Because John Cena sold it to them. Just like you Cardale. For as long as you were on scholarship, you gave the NCAA your likeness. You did it willingly. So if you think you got the raw end of the deal, you were free to walk away, not play college football, oh and not a get free "playing school" either
 
This kid has an IQ short of s turnip. Numbskull describes him pretty well.
 
Cardale posed the question: Why shouldn't a collegiate athlete be able to use their OWN likeness/brand to benefit themselves but yet the @NCAA can sell there jerseys

Well, Cardale the answer is because your likeness/brand is virtually worthless without the connection of Ohio State and the NCAA.

I'm not arguing that NCAA players ought to be permitted to profit from their likeness while NCAA athletes, but how is your statement any different than saying Tom Brady's brand is virtually worthless without the connection to the New England Patriots and the NFL? Without the NFL or its teams, would people pay to see some guy off the street named Tom Brady throw a football around? Does Tom Brady deserve the right to own and control his likeness despite the fact that his likeness would be worthless without the NFL or the Patriots?

Cardale has a good point that the NCAA programs should not be permitted to profit from selling the likeness (through jerseys, video games, etc.) of individual players without the player providing the university explicit permission. Giving a university (or the NCAA) control over your likeness should not be a condition of receiving an athletic scholarship.

NU and other places that stopped selling players jerseys (other than #51) admitted as much, and they are right.
 
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/04/ohio-state-cardale-jones-rips-ncaa-as-leaves-for-nfl

Cardale Jones rips the NCAA as he leaves for NFL

Cardale posed the question: Why shouldn't a collegiate athlete be able to use their OWN likeness/brand to benefit themselves but yet the @NCAA can sell there jerseys

Well, Cardale the answer is because your likeness/brand is virtually worthless without the connection of Ohio State and the NCAA. Second of all, it's what you willingly signed up for. You signed up that while you are playing at Ohio State, that's the deal. Now you want a better deal after you realized that you're not going to the NFL, but are going to be making between 51,000 and 100,000 playing in Canada or 108,000 being on an NFL practice squad, if you're lucky. Third and finally, it's not actually an NCAA exclusive thing. The WWE has been doing this for years. They sign contracts with their talent... and they own their name and likeness forever. So anytime the Rock appears as the Rock in a movie... The WWE gets a cut. Now the Rock could appear as Dwayne Johnson, but nobody wants to market a movie with Dwayne Johnson. Who is that? Some former U Miami football player that washed out? No, that movie sucks. Wait, it's the Rock? Yeah, we want him. There's another wrestler that was born John Felix Anthony Cena. Guess what, the WWE owns John Cena too! Anytime John Cena makes an appearance, the WWE takes their cut. Why? Because John Cena sold it to them. Just like you Cardale. For as long as you were on scholarship, you gave the NCAA your likeness. You did it willingly. So if you think you got the raw end of the deal, you were free to walk away, not play college football, oh and not a get free "playing school" either


The "you signed up for it willingly" argument in college athletics (or even the pros) is weak because the system is basically a monopoly. This isn't some free market at work where players have different options available for a path to the NFL.
 
I'm not arguing that NCAA players ought to be permitted to profit from their likeness while NCAA athletes, but how is your statement any different than saying Tom Brady's brand is virtually worthless without the connection to the New England Patriots and the NFL? Without the NFL or its teams, would people pay to see some guy off the street named Tom Brady throw a football around? Does Tom Brady deserve the right to own and control his likeness despite the fact that his likeness would be worthless without the NFL or the Patriots?

Cardale has a good point that the NCAA programs should not be permitted to profit from selling the likeness (through jerseys, video games, etc.) of individual players without the player providing the university explicit permission. Giving a university (or the NCAA) control over your likeness should not be a condition of receiving an athletic scholarship.

NU and other places that stopped selling players jerseys (other than #51) admitted as much, and they are right.
Well although FightNorthwestern won't like my argument, it's because Tom Brady willingly signed a contract which permitted him to do that. On the other hand, Cardale Jones signed a contract where he is bound to be an amateur athlete. It's tough for me to watch someone willingly enter into a contract, which they feel can benefit them greatly, and them claim that the party he entered into the agreement with is exploiting him. In my mind, this is sour grapes that Cardale is not going to be able to cash in from the 3 game run he had.

The "you signed up for it willingly" argument in college athletics (or even the pros) is weak because the system is basically a monopoly. This isn't some free market at work where players have different options available for a path to the NFL.
Ok, then start a minor league system for 18-22 year old players. You can pay players, you'll get all the top athletes out of high school by paying them, not making them go to school, allowing them to focus on football... It'll be a better league than the NCAA... yet, you'll go bankrupt in a heartbeat. The reason is that people who are college football fans rarely care about the product on the field. They care if their team is competitive with the other teams. They care if they're watching a big match up of two top teams, but wanted the elite level of football, you watch the NFL. The free market has spoken. People want amateur athletics associated with Universities that represent them.
 
Well although FightNorthwestern won't like my argument, it's because Tom Brady willingly signed a contract which permitted him to do that. On the other hand, Cardale Jones signed a contract where he is bound to be an amateur athlete. It's tough for me to watch someone willingly enter into a contract, which they feel can benefit them greatly, and them claim that the party he entered into the agreement with is exploiting him. In my mind, this is sour grapes that Cardale is not going to be able to cash in from the 3 game run he had.


Ok, then start a minor league system for 18-22 year old players. You can pay players, you'll get all the top athletes out of high school by paying them, not making them go to school, allowing them to focus on football... It'll be a better league than the NCAA... yet, you'll go bankrupt in a heartbeat. The reason is that people who are college football fans rarely care about the product on the field. They care if their team is competitive with the other teams. They care if they're watching a big match up of two top teams, but wanted the elite level of football, you watch the NFL. The free market has spoken. People want amateur athletics associated with Universities that represent them.

Or let individual schools decide how much they want to pay players similar to how schools decide how much to pay a coach. If your fans value amateur athletes don't pay them. The NCAA doesn't control pay on coaches or administrators why should it control pay on players. Let the free market reign...
 
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Or let individual schools decide how much they want to pay players similar to how schools decide how much to pay a coach. If your fans value amateur athletes don't pay them. The NCAA doesn't control pay on coaches or administrators why should it control pay on players. Let the free market reign...
And kill any competitive balance? Any league is going to have to find a way to even the playing field whether it's through scholarship limits, a salary cap, revenue sharing, arbitration...
 
Well although FightNorthwestern won't like my argument, it's because Tom Brady willingly signed a contract which permitted him to do that. On the other hand, Cardale Jones signed a contract where he is bound to be an amateur athlete. It's tough for me to watch someone willingly enter into a contract, which they feel can benefit them greatly, and them claim that the party he entered into the agreement with is exploiting him. In my mind, this is sour grapes that Cardale is not going to be able to cash in from the 3 game run he had.

Why did Cardale have to sign such a contract and Brady didn't? Because, unlike Brady, he has no right to representation or any ability to negotiate.

Also, the whole notion of signing a written contract to be a "amateur athlete" while simultaneously signing over your likeness to another party that can generate revenue from it seems inherently contradictory. If you're an amateur athlete in an amateur sports league, neither party ought to be able to make money off a players likeness (at least without explicit permission). If the player wants to be a good guy and just grant his institution such a right (over his likeness) so that funds made can be used to fund the team's budget (e.g., recruiting, coaching, facilities, etc.) or to help finance non-revenue sports, then let him grant such an approval. Most players would probably do so anyway. The resentment (rightfully) comes from when the player has no control or say in the matter.

Contracts are exploitive and worthy of complaints all the time. That doesn't mean they ought not be followed nor does it mean that Cardale violated his.

The NCAA has taken positive steps surrounding things such as unlimited food, cost of attendance, etc. and courts have made some common sense rulings about a person's right to own their own likeness. None of these things would have happened without guys like Kain Colter ransoming things like unionization and guys like Ed O'Bannon stepping up. (Unionization is a terrible idea, but it was a worthy hostage to ransom to scare the NCAA into some basic reforms rooted in common sense and common decency. I just wish it didn't have to happen at NU.)
 
Why did Cardale have to sign such a contract and Brady didn't? Because, unlike Brady, he has no right to representation or any ability to negotiate.
John Cena and the Rock signed the contract which gives their likeness to Vince McMahon.... But they had representation too. They didn't have to do it. The Rock even comes from a long line of wrestlers and fully understood what was happening. They chose to do it because they'll be far better off than they would be without the system provided. Likewise, Cardale chose to sign the contract because his life is inexplicable better than any other option he has.... like paying for school, or not going to school. I'm all for elite high school players going to Europe to play or baseball players going to the minor league. Just don't see why people scream exploitation when it comes to college sports. Players get a good deal.

Also, the whole notion of signing a written contract to be a "amateur athlete" while simultaneously signing over your likeness to another party that can generate revenue from it seems inherently contradictory. If you're an amateur athlete in an amateur sports league, neither party ought to be able to make money off a players likeness (at least without explicit permission). If the player wants to be a good guy and just grant his institution such a right (over his likeness) so that funds made can be used to fund the team's budget (e.g., recruiting, coaching, facilities, etc.) or to help finance non-revenue sports, then let him grant such an approval.
I thought the players do have a say when they sign their letter of intent. I'm guessing most players don't read the scholarship offer though when they're doing the hat dance.

Most players would probably do so anyway. The resentment (rightfully) comes from when the player has no control or say in the matter.
And I resent the players that whine and complain about playing a sport (which I did for free) while getting a free college education (which I did not) and a lot of other perks (which I got maybe a 1/4). If you don't want to play a sport in college, don't play a sport in college. If that's your only option to go to college, be grateful.

Contracts are exploitive and worthy of complaints all the time. That doesn't mean they ought not be followed nor does it mean that Cardale violated his.
I never said Cardale violated his contract. I did say that he's full of sour grapes because he's going to have a cup of coffee at most in the NFL and that he really has nothing to complain about.

The NCAA has taken positive steps surrounding things such as unlimited food, cost of attendance, etc. and courts have made some common sense rulings about a person's right to own their own likeness. None of these things would have happened without guys like Kain Colter ransoming things like unionization and guys like Ed O'Bannon stepping up. (Unionization is a terrible idea, but it was a worthy hostage to ransom to scare the NCAA into some basic reforms rooted in common sense and common decency. I just wish it didn't have to happen at NU)
I don't think creating an open system of paying players is a good idea for anyone. If you want to disallow the NCAA from profiting off of a player's likeness, that's fair. But if you allow players to sell their own likeness, you're going to have a shitton of problems and the competitive balance will be further ruined. For example, Northwestern is recruiting against Michigan. It's reasonable to say that Michigan has the recruiting advantage based on tradition, fan base, number of players Harbaugh puts in the pros... Now what if Alviti was allowed to sell his likeness, Harbaugh can line up donors, boosters, "friends of the program..." If the player has the ability "use his likeness to make money," then show up to big donor's kids birthday and make 10 grand. Sign a football or make a poster of yourself and sell them to boosters. Instead of pay for play, make an appearance after the game at a tailgate... and get 100 dollar hand shakes. Competitive balance is completely gone and what is great about college football is destroyed.
 
Why did Cardale have to sign such a contract and Brady didn't? Because, unlike Brady, he has no right to representation or any ability to negotiate.
John Cena and the Rock signed the contract which gives their likeness to Vince McMahon.... But they had representation too. They didn't have to do it. The Rock even comes from a long line of wrestlers and fully understood what was happening. They chose to do it because they'll be far better off than they would be without the system provided. Likewise, Cardale chose to sign the contract because his life is inexplicable better than any other option he has.... like paying for school, or not going to school. I'm all for elite high school players going to Europe to play or baseball players going to the minor league. Just don't see why people scream exploitation when it comes to college sports. Players get a good deal.

Did John Cena or The Rock get paid (as professionals) by Vince McMahon when they signed their contracts? They were paid performers (not even athletes) in a for profit venture and were free to negotiate whatever deal they wanted. If The Rock or John Cena didn't like the deal they negotiated, they could have sought another contract from another competing wrestling company.

What on Earth does John Cena and The Rock have to do with a 17 year-old high school kid who wants to play some amateur football and get an education at a non-profit higher education institution? Are you suggesting this 17-year old kid is a paid professional like The Rock or John Cena? If so, let's get him an agent who can negotiate his contract and make sure he has the opportunity to bargain for pay, control over his likeness, health care benefits and other things I'm sure The Rock or John Cena bargained for. On the other hand, we could just do the common-sense thing and allow student-athletes (who are supposedly not employees or paid contractors) to opt out of letting their universities or the NCAA own their individual likenesses and use them to sell products or services.

I'm not suggesting that college sports scholarships are (en masse) a bad deal for kids that have such an opportunity. However, just because something is more good than not doesn't mean it's entirely free of faults forever and doesn't need any reforms.

Also, the whole notion of signing a written contract to be a "amateur athlete" while simultaneously signing over your likeness to another party that can generate revenue from it seems inherently contradictory. If you're an amateur athlete in an amateur sports league, neither party ought to be able to make money off a players likeness (at least without explicit permission). If the player wants to be a good guy and just grant his institution such a right (over his likeness) so that funds made can be used to fund the team's budget (e.g., recruiting, coaching, facilities, etc.) or to help finance non-revenue sports, then let him grant such an approval.
I thought the players do have a say when they sign their letter of intent. I'm guessing most players don't read the scholarship offer though when they're doing the hat dance.

Most players do read it even though there's not much point because it cannot be negotiated. What kind of contract is one that cannot be negotiated anyway? It sounds a bit like a contract that only a monopoly power could get away with using.

So the kid can either opt to sign a letter of intent and transfer total control over his likeness to another party (who is supposed to be a nonprofit organization dedicated to higher learning), or he can stick to his guns and forgo any opportunity to play an amateur sport and earn a scholarship doing so. This does not seem like a reasonable balance.

Most players would probably do so anyway. The resentment (rightfully) comes from when the player has no control or say in the matter.
And I resent the players that whine and complain about playing a sport (which I did for free) while getting a free college education (which I did not) and a lot of other perks (which I got maybe a 1/4). If you don't want to play a sport in college, don't play a sport in college. If that's your only option to go to college, be grateful.


The reason you did your sport for free (or mostly for free) is because nobody cares that much about it, so you don't have any bargaining power at all. Also, you're a dude in a non-revenue activity which means your potential scholarship dollars are a possible casualty of Title IX.

When I was a kid, I was really good at soccer. I was a better soccer player than a football player. However, I decided one day to change to football because nobody cares about soccer (myself included).

Contracts are exploitive and worthy of complaints all the time. That doesn't mean they ought not be followed nor does it mean that Cardale violated his.
I never said Cardale violated his contract. I did say that he's full of sour grapes because he's going to have a cup of coffee at most in the NFL and that he really has nothing to complain about.

If he's upset over how the system works, he should speak up about it. There is plenty fouled up about it, and there's nothing wrong with reforming an institution so it works better.

Let's talk about what Cardale said:

CJ's statement:
"I'm so happy to be done with the @NCAA and their rules & regulation. They do any & everything to exploited collegiate athletes."

MRCat's response:
The NCAA rules and regulations are highly complex, seemingly arbitrary and often highly punitive towards athletes. The rules have largely been written for the benefit of the NCAA institutions (and the segments of power within them) to the detriment of athletes whenever athletes' best interests don't align with the member institutions. Cardale's statement is not only factual, but pretty much just common sense.

CJ's statement:
"It's deeper than athletes thinking we should get paid. The@NCAA control our lives with insane and unfair rules"

MRCat's response:
Yup, the NCAA does pretty much control student-athletes lives. Many rules are seemingly insane and unfair (to athletes) and generally benefit the NCAA member institutions.

CJ's statement:
"Why shouldn't a collegiate athlete be able to use their OWN likeness/brand to benefit themselves but yet the @NCAA can sell there jerseys"

MRCat's response:
Yup, there is huge hypocrisy there and Cardale's accurately pointing it out. (The solution is for the NCAA or member institutions to stop the practice of licensing player jerseys to clothing stores / manufacturers.)

CJ's statement:
"That's my 2cent on the @NCAA .It's not like that's going to change how the athletes are exploited, even tho 98% of people feel the same way"

MRCat's response:
I don't know if the 98% figure is right, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was actually higher than that (among NCAA athletes). Yes, the NCAA controls a lot of money and is very powerful. Generally speaking, the only thing that will likely get them to reform are things like union movements or anti-trust lawsuits because why else would they? Powerful (and monopolistic) organizations generally do not make reforms unless they feel credibly threatened by legal actions.
 
Wouldn't fit in one post, so here's the rest...

The NCAA has taken positive steps surrounding things such as unlimited food, cost of attendance, etc. and courts have made some common sense rulings about a person's right to own their own likeness. None of these things would have happened without guys like Kain Colter ransoming things like unionization and guys like Ed O'Bannon stepping up. (Unionization is a terrible idea, but it was a worthy hostage to ransom to scare the NCAA into some basic reforms rooted in common sense and common decency. I just wish it didn't have to happen at NU)
I don't think creating an open system of paying players is a good idea for anyone. If you want to disallow the NCAA from profiting off of a player's likeness, that's fair. But if you allow players to sell their own likeness, you're going to have a shitton of problems and the competitive balance will be further ruined. For example, Northwestern is recruiting against Michigan. It's reasonable to say that Michigan has the recruiting advantage based on tradition, fan base, number of players Harbaugh puts in the pros... Now what if Alviti was allowed to sell his likeness, Harbaugh can line up donors, boosters, "friends of the program..." If the player has the ability "use his likeness to make money," then show up to big donor's kids birthday and make 10 grand. Sign a football or make a poster of yourself and sell them to boosters. Instead of pay for play, make an appearance after the game at a tailgate... and get 100 dollar hand shakes. Competitive balance is completely gone and what is great about college football is destroyed.

Yes, I want to disallow the NCAA from profiting off individual players' likenesses, which only seems reasonable given that the players themselves may not profit off their likenesses either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, especially when you're dealing with a so-called amateur athlete playing a sport for a nonprofit organization. I want to preserve the amateur status of NCAA sports, and the only way to do that is to prevent players from making money off their likeness. There's nothing exploitative about that prohibition, so long as the NCAA (or a university) doesn't get to generate revenues off players' individual likenesses either (without his explicit permission that is not tied to some letter of intent contract that gives him essentially no choice).

I agree with you and your example illustrates the end of scholarship NCAA sports. NCAA athletes must never be allowed to profit from their likeness, so long as they are on athletic scholarship. However, the only way to morally justify this is to (preferably self) mandate that the NCAA member institutions (and the NCAA itself) may also not be allowed to profit off individual players' likenesses.
 
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CJ is an intelligent guy that we like. That said, if you want to tell what a person is like take at the people closest to him. He's the average of those people. As such, it doesn't surprise me that a young former football player feels like other young football players should get more, especially when he hangs out with lots of young former football players being his teammates, competitors, and people he knows from Huddlecast. Do I blame anyone for wanting more? Who wouldn't want more? I'm all for giving players more... provided we do not mess up what makes college athletics great. To me that it's 1) amateur players. I don't like pro sports where the players are in it for the money. I want players competing for pride. Every sport I played, that's what I competed for. 2) a competitive balance. I've detailed how the competitive balance will be further directed toward the "big time schools" if we allow players to get paid or have an easy loophole of getting paid for their likeness and 3) The players are actually students. I love Northwestern football, because I can look at a player and see a little bit of me, or know that he's doing some of the same things I did. I bet a lot of the football players took sociology 101, they packed 9 people in a car to avoid getting a cab to go to the deuce, they ate at Norris, or Allison, Sargent, they wanted to go to a party but finally got to Ridge and Noyes and broken up. I can keep going. To me, that's awesome. I don't think we should be having students getting full time jobs as football players. If it's an extra curricular, that's awesome. I did those and they were part of my college experience... and yes, nobody cares about cheerleaders... especially the guys, but I learned a lot about leadership, team work... and had some really cool experiences. I don't care if I got 1 penny from it. It didn't matter. I've also never been broke in my life so I'll give you that.

Now, the idea of exploitation: "the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work." Now we can talk about whether the treatment of student athletes is unfair. Personally, if someone told me that my kid would be given a free education, eat really well, get training, medical support, a coaching which could help them get to the NFL, room, board, clothing... and all he had to do was play a game which he supposedly like.... I wish someone would treat him so poorly. But yes, profiting off of a likeness is a bit of an issue. Now, does the unfair treatment benefit another. Yes, I'm with you that coaches, commissioners, NCAA heads.... make way too much money. I'd rather see a cap being put on those salaries, rather than players receiving cuts on their jersey sales. So is exploitation a fair term? I still say no. There are two synonyms that stood out when I looked up the above definition: abuse and oppression. Now, unless the players are playing for someone like Mike Leach, Mark Mangino, or Tim Beckman... But I don't think CJ Bacher or Kain Colter where abused by Fitz and Co. I don't think Cardale Jones was abused by Urban Meyer or Jim Tressell (see Klemman I can say something nice about OSU). Is it oppression? Prolonged cruel treatment? I'm just not seeing the cruelty. Can we do more for the student athlete experience? I'm all for it. I just don't want to take a student athletes out of the normal student experience by having a union, or a lavish off campus house for athletes, "likeness sales," or pay for play....
 
CJ is an intelligent guy that we like. That said, if you want to tell what a person is like take at the people closest to him. He's the average of those people. As such, it doesn't surprise me that a young former football player feels like other young football players should get more, especially when he hangs out with lots of young former football players being his teammates, competitors, and people he knows from Huddlecast. Do I blame anyone for wanting more? Who wouldn't want more? I'm all for giving players more... provided we do not mess up what makes college athletics great. To me that it's 1) amateur players. I don't like pro sports where the players are in it for the money. I want players competing for pride. Every sport I played, that's what I competed for. 2) a competitive balance. I've detailed how the competitive balance will be further directed toward the "big time schools" if we allow players to get paid or have an easy loophole of getting paid for their likeness and 3) The players are actually students. I love Northwestern football, because I can look at a player and see a little bit of me, or know that he's doing some of the same things I did. I bet a lot of the football players took sociology 101, they packed 9 people in a car to avoid getting a cab to go to the deuce, they ate at Norris, or Allison, Sargent, they wanted to go to a party but finally got to Ridge and Noyes and broken up. I can keep going. To me, that's awesome. I don't think we should be having students getting full time jobs as football players. If it's an extra curricular, that's awesome. I did those and they were part of my college experience... and yes, nobody cares about cheerleaders... especially the guys, but I learned a lot about leadership, team work... and had some really cool experiences. I don't care if I got 1 penny from it. It didn't matter. I've also never been broke in my life so I'll give you that.

Now, the idea of exploitation: "the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work." Now we can talk about whether the treatment of student athletes is unfair. Personally, if someone told me that my kid would be given a free education, eat really well, get training, medical support, a coaching which could help them get to the NFL, room, board, clothing... and all he had to do was play a game which he supposedly like.... I wish someone would treat him so poorly. But yes, profiting off of a likeness is a bit of an issue. Now, does the unfair treatment benefit another. Yes, I'm with you that coaches, commissioners, NCAA heads.... make way too much money. I'd rather see a cap being put on those salaries, rather than players receiving cuts on their jersey sales. So is exploitation a fair term? I still say no. There are two synonyms that stood out when I looked up the above definition: abuse and oppression. Now, unless the players are playing for someone like Mike Leach, Mark Mangino, or Tim Beckman... But I don't think CJ Bacher or Kain Colter where abused by Fitz and Co. I don't think Cardale Jones was abused by Urban Meyer or Jim Tressell (see Klemman I can say something nice about OSU). Is it oppression? Prolonged cruel treatment? I'm just not seeing the cruelty. Can we do more for the student athlete experience? I'm all for it. I just don't want to take a student athletes out of the normal student experience by having a union, or a lavish off campus house for athletes, "likeness sales," or pay for play....

The NCAA has taken steps to fix some things, but many of those reforms were curiously timed to occur right around the time NU's players were to vote on unionization. Until recently, some NCAA athletes went hungry because of limits to food. The food stipend was barely nothing, and many players cannot eat in cafeterias because of the timing of practices (and they are barred by the NCAA in getting part time jobs during the school year to afford to buy food). After decades of this, the NCAA finally granted permission to schools simply to feed their players whenever they were hungry. There are just dozens of examples of stupid rules or penny pinching regulations (at the athletes' expense) that are really ludicrous. Some of such rules prevented the school from paying for "recommended" rather than "required" reading materials for classes. Seriously? Add to that routine seven figure coaches pay, massive TV contracts, athletic conferences television networks, and it is not hard to understand why some kids may feel a bit exploited.

Also, griping is an American tradition, so what's the harm in Cardale Jones griping about the NCAA? They're a pretty easy target.
 
The "you signed up for it willingly" argument in college athletics (or even the pros) is weak because the system is basically a monopoly. This isn't some free market at work where players have different options available for a path to the NFL.
Gee. I had to teach for free when I was in college so that I could make it to the next level. Wait. That's wrong. I had to pay to teach. And I had to pay for four years of courses. It was so unfair. Whine! Whine! Whine!
 
Gee. I had to teach for free when I was in college so that I could make it to the next level. Wait. That's wrong. I had to pay to teach. And I had to pay for four years of courses. It was so unfair. Whine! Whine! Whine!
I bet 40,000 people didn't pay to watch you teach nor did networks pay millions of dollars to broadcast your classes.
 
Follow the money. Coaches are paid more than doctors, universities and conferences are splitting mega TV rights and bowl games. Merchandise is being hawked earning big profits. Players get schlorship's. On the face it, sounds great, but stupid rules are in place that the NCAA protects due to wanting to hold on to as much of that pie as possible.

As a D1 athlete on a non revenue sport I am grateful for what I got. On the other hand, I saw guys making a lot of money for the university that wore clothes that were embarrassing or couldn't even go out for a pizza after practice. I think the 98% would be close to accurate. I couldn't get a job unless approved thru compliance. I won't even go into the time commitment that all athletes, men and woman are required to do. There are still a lot of improvements that could be made while maintaining a fair competetive process.
 
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Gee. I had to teach for free when I was in college so that I could make it to the next level. Wait. That's wrong. I had to pay to teach. And I had to pay for four years of courses. It was so unfair. Whine! Whine! Whine!

1) How many times did a 300 pound man drive you into a chalk board while you were teaching?
2) Was the subject you taught actually related to your subject of study and eventual career field?
3) How many surgeries did you have that resulted from your teaching?
4) Were you subject to random drug testing while you taught?
5) When you were teaching, did you have to sit out a year if you transferred to another school or 2 years if you transferred to another B1G school?
6) Do they have a highly profitable B1G teaching assistant's network where millions of people tune in to watch people teach?
7) Did 50-100K people show up on weekends to watch you teach?
8) Did the professor you worked for make $2-$5 MM?
9) Did you lose your eligibility to teach if a university booster bought you lunch or gave you a ride home?
10) Is it possible that your teaching activities will subject you to lifelong physical ailments including brain damage (that will potentially lead to suicide)?
11) Did you have to go away to TA camp every summer for about a month where 16 hours of your day would be subject to multiple practice sessions and you had a mandatory bedtime including bed check?
12) Did you have a better than 1% chance of making a living in the subject you taught?
13) Were you prevented from seeking employment in a part time job while you taught?
 
Gee. I had to teach for free when I was in college so that I could make it to the next level. Wait. That's wrong. I had to pay to teach. And I had to pay for four years of courses. It was so unfair. Whine! Whine! Whine!

More or less what the others already mentioned, but the fact of the matter is that college football is a huge business and the athletes are seeing disproportionately minuscule share of the benefits for the amount of work that they do. The athletes have it good (I'm sure most of them will make the same choice to play college football in current conditions), but that doesn't mean it's fair.
 
Also, griping is an American tradition, so what's the harm in Cardale Jones griping about the NCAA? They're a pretty easy target.
Yes, so what's the harm about me griping about Cardale Jones griping in an effort to piss off Klemman? Ohio State players are a really easy target.

1) How many times did a 300 pound man drive you into a chalk board while you were teaching?
2) Was the subject you taught actually related to your subject of study and eventual career field?
3) How many surgeries did you have that resulted from your teaching?
4) Were you subject to random drug testing while you taught?
5) When you were teaching, did you have to sit out a year if you transferred to another school or 2 years if you transferred to another B1G school?
6) Do they have a highly profitable B1G teaching assistant's network where millions of people tune in to watch people teach?
7) Did 50-100K people show up on weekends to watch you teach?
8) Did the professor you worked for make $2-$5 MM?
9) Did you lose your eligibility to teach if a university booster bought you lunch or gave you a ride home?
10) Is it possible that your teaching activities will subject you to lifelong physical ailments including brain damage (that will potentially lead to suicide)?
11) Did you have to go away to TA camp every summer for about a month where 16 hours of your day would be subject to multiple practice sessions and you had a mandatory bedtime including bed check?
12) Did you have a better than 1% chance of making a living in the subject you taught?
13) Were you prevented from seeking employment in a part time job while you taught?
1) How many lives did you save when you were in college? (Now granted these were people that were willingly thrown in the air by me or someone else for the sole purpose of entertaining ourselves and others... but still, I've saved many-a-lives)
 
I don't get how your OP was designed to piss me off Shakes? First of all, I don't get angry on or about message boards. By your own admission, that your thing. Secondly, I don't see how Cardale Jones complaining about not getting paid for his likeness makes him an easy target.

Many reasonable intelligent people make that argument. An argument that has some validity and isn't just made by players destined for the CFL- if that is where he does ends up.

Specific to the argument as to whether players should be compensated for their likeness or as some form of profit sharing, I disagree with it. And OSU would be one of the programs that could benefit from such an approach. But given the current situation and divisions of College Football I don't agree with it
 
Follow the money. Coaches are paid more than doctors, universities and conferences are splitting mega TV rights and bowl games. Merchandise is being hawked earning big profits. Players get schlorship's. On the face it, sounds great, but stupid rules are in place that the NCAA protects due to wanting to hold on to as much of that pie as possible.

As a D1 athlete on a non revenue sport I am grateful for what I got. On the other hand, I saw guys making a lot of money for the university that wore clothes that were embarrassing or couldn't even go out for a pizza after practice. I think the 98% would be close to accurate. I couldn't get a job unless approved thru compliance. I won't even go into the time commitment that all athletes, men and woman are required to do. There are still a lot of improvements that could be made while maintaining a fair competetive process.

It's not just that Colleges want to keep the money for themselves. But additional compensation to players opens a quagmire of issues:

1. Most schools aren't profitable, so to pay or compensate players will shut down many sports and programs.
2. Do all athletes, or only football and maybe men's bball players get compensated?
3. How does Title IX fit into the equation?
4. If you pay the players for jersey sales, do you pay all the players or only those who have jersey's that are being sold?
5. It can be a problem for team chemistry now if a player thinks he should be starting and isn't. How much more of an issue and potential distraction will it be if that player knows if he was starting he would also be making an extra $10-20 grand?
6. How will it impact recruiting if a player thinks he can make more money because school X sells more jerseys?
7. As an add on to #6, could a school that pays more money to their players use that as a recruiting advantage?
8. And if a player gets compensated specifically for his jersey sales, what's to stop a booster from telling a recruit that if you come to my school, I'll personally buy 5000 of your jerseys, and that will mean more money in your pocket.

I'm sure there are other issues, but that is what quickly enters my mind.
 
1) How many times did a 300 pound man drive you into a chalk board while you were teaching?
2) Was the subject you taught actually related to your subject of study and eventual career field?
3) How many surgeries did you have that resulted from your teaching?
4) Were you subject to random drug testing while you taught?
5) When you were teaching, did you have to sit out a year if you transferred to another school or 2 years if you transferred to another B1G school?
6) Do they have a highly profitable B1G teaching assistant's network where millions of people tune in to watch people teach?
7) Did 50-100K people show up on weekends to watch you teach?
8) Did the professor you worked for make $2-$5 MM?
9) Did you lose your eligibility to teach if a university booster bought you lunch or gave you a ride home?
10) Is it possible that your teaching activities will subject you to lifelong physical ailments including brain damage (that will potentially lead to suicide)?
11) Did you have to go away to TA camp every summer for about a month where 16 hours of your day would be subject to multiple practice sessions and you had a mandatory bedtime including bed check?
12) Did you have a better than 1% chance of making a living in the subject you taught?
13) Were you prevented from seeking employment in a part time job while you taught?
Hello? 911? I just witnessed a murder.
 
The free market has spoken. People want amateur athletics associated with Universities that represent them.
It's a monopsony, shakes. There's one place of employment for 18-22 year old football players, and that place of employment has conspired to pay these employees in-kind.

There is no free market model where the cost of labor is zero. But you knew that.
 
It's a monopsony, shakes. There's one place of employment for 18-22 year old football players, and that place of employment has conspired to pay these employees in-kind.

There is no free market model where the cost of labor is zero. But you knew that.
Ok, cool. Let's take college football as a minor league. We'll pay players cash instead of scholarships and they'll have to pay tuition. Of course, then they'll have to be taxed on their income... and they'll come out below where they're at right now... but, hell, at least the labor cost won't be 0.
 
Ok, cool. Let's take college football as a minor league. We'll pay players cash instead of scholarships and they'll have to pay tuition. Of course, then they'll have to be taxed on their income... and they'll come out below where they're at right now... but, hell, at least the labor cost won't be 0.

Why are you so sure they will come out below where they are at? If college sports shared their revenues the way pro sports do, the average Football Bowl Subdivision player would be worth $121,000 per year...and I would imagine a Big Ten player would be higher.
 
Why are you so sure they will come out below where they are at? If college sports shared their revenues the way pro sports do, the average Football Bowl Subdivision player would be worth $121,000 per year...and I would imagine a Big Ten player would be higher.
Because most athletic departments lose money. Or are you getting rid of all the sports that don't make money?
 
Because most athletic departments lose money. Or are you getting rid of all the sports that don't make money?
I would just make them club sports...true amateur athletics. As someone who benefited off of scholarships for a non-revenue sport, I still don't understand why schools of higher learning give out money for these sports.

The accounting behind the athletic department losing money statistic is questionable to say the least.
 
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Why did Cardale have to sign such a contract and Brady didn't? Because, unlike Brady, he has no right to representation or any ability to negotiate.

Also, the whole notion of signing a written contract to be a "amateur athlete" while simultaneously signing over your likeness to another party that can generate revenue from it seems inherently contradictory. If you're an amateur athlete in an amateur sports league, neither party ought to be able to make money off a players likeness (at least without explicit permission). If the player wants to be a good guy and just grant his institution such a right (over his likeness) so that funds made can be used to fund the team's budget (e.g., recruiting, coaching, facilities, etc.) or to help finance non-revenue sports, then let him grant such an approval. Most players would probably do so anyway. The resentment (rightfully) comes from when the player has no control or say in the matter.

Contracts are exploitive and worthy of complaints all the time. That doesn't mean they ought not be followed nor does it mean that Cardale violated his.

The NCAA has taken positive steps surrounding things such as unlimited food, cost of attendance, etc. and courts have made some common sense rulings about a person's right to own their own likeness. None of these things would have happened without guys like Kain Colter ransoming things like unionization and guys like Ed O'Bannon stepping up. (Unionization is a terrible idea, but it was a worthy hostage to ransom to scare the NCAA into some basic reforms rooted in common sense and common decency. I just wish it didn't have to happen at NU.)
Well said. College football is my favorite sport, but anyone that thinks a "free education" is adequate compensation for the gladiator, whilst coaches and others carve up billiions is just plain wrong
 
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Ok, cool. Let's take college football as a minor league. We'll pay players cash instead of scholarships and they'll have to pay tuition. Of course, then they'll have to be taxed on their income... and they'll come out below where they're at right now... but, hell, at least the labor cost won't be 0.
I love college football, but it's only through an accident of history that it exists. If pro football in proper stadiums with proper media coverage had been first - like it was in baseball - then proper developmental infrastructure would have built up behind it.

You see that minor league baseball is a real and beautiful and vibrant thing (seriously), with A-ball teams consisting of 18-24 year olds drawing 8k a night (that's 500+k per season, or more than NU draws) despite no connection to the town they play in. These kids are compensated a living wage including per diem on the road - though top picks live off of their signing bonuses, and many live with host families - and are full time professionals.

Baseball's developmental infrastructure supports six US-based farm clubs for each major league team, plus typically one Dominican team of 16-19 year olds and perhaps a Venezuela-based team. That's roughly 150 players, plus 20 or so coaches and managers, plus 6 traveling trainers, plus 4-10 roving minor league instructors, plus a full-time spring training complex staff, plus anywhere from 20-50 pro, international, and amateur scouts.

I love college football. But those two words don't 'really' belong together.

The reason minor league football does not exist is not because it couldn't work - after all, it does work, it just happens in Tuscaloosa and Ann Arbor and Evanston - but because it's *expensive*, and because it's a lot easier for the nfl to outsource it.

I wish the nfl (and especially the nba, which is tilting that way with the nbdl, but still holding itself back by enforcing an age limit) would attempt to create at least some minor league concept that allowed promising athletes with no academic interest to try being a full time professional. Those players would be more prepared at promotion to the nfl as a result of unlimited practice time. And because they would come up 'through the system', they'd also have longer to learn playbooks and concepts (like high school feeder programs). I don't think college football would suffer significantly in popularity (though it would in talent), because college football is popular not because of the talent level (though that's a part of it) but because of the tradition and the social world that's built around it.

College football makes kids who don't want to go to college pretend to go to college. They didn't go there to play school, but they have to. (NU is an exception of course, but, if pro minor league football were an option, I imagine that numerous NU recruits would consider that path as well. This is, of course, an alternative universe I'm talking about.)

I bet Cardale Jones would have been a better prepared quarterback had he been preparing as a professional - as he clearly wanted to - for the past four years. And based on his stature and his arm strength and his athleticism - he would have been paid like a pro upon signing three years ago as well.
 
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Ok, cool. Let's take college football as a minor league. We'll pay players cash instead of scholarships and they'll have to pay tuition. Of course, then they'll have to be taxed on their income... and they'll come out below where they're at right now... but, hell, at least the labor cost won't be 0.

And the more there is a push to treat players as professional, the more you continue to open a Pandora's Box. In addition to the tax effect, a program with more limited funds can start charging not only for tuition and room and board, but training table, tutoring, travel,what ever it takes to nickel and dime the players so that it's not a money drain on the program.
 
Why are you so sure they will come out below where they are at? If college sports shared their revenues the way pro sports do, the average Football Bowl Subdivision player would be worth $121,000 per year...and I would imagine a Big Ten player would be higher.

Your assumption is that all programs make enough money to pay players $120k. You wouldn't see such shared revenue if players were paid that amount. Not only nationally but within the Big 10. You would see a model closer to what goes on the in the Big 12 with Texas. OSU, Michigan, and PSU will fight to keep most of the Bowl and television revenue.
 
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