Would you have pulled Thorson?

[mybrotha]

Tough call on this, but I would have pulled him after the first half and put in Oliver. Clayton is going to be a great player, but it was more than clear he was not up to the task today. Our offense was utterly anemic in the first half and his passing was a large part of it. Due to this Duke keyed on the run game and basically shut us down. Oliver is our best passer and bringing him in would have forced Duke to respect the pass and thus they would have had to ease up on the run,
As it went. Vault's heroics, Warrens big run and a Mitchell field goal made everything ok in the end. Once again I could only listen to this game on the radio but from what I heard from Ted Albrecht, Turk was right on the money with his assessment of #18. Threw into heavy coverage, not standing tall in the pocket amidst pressure and not finishing runs. Albrecht all but chewed him out over the miss of Miles Shuler.
I feel very strongly that next Saturday McCall needs to really work on Thorson throwing the ball a lot against Ball State, because if he plays like this against Minny,it's highly unlikely that we will beat them.
Thoughts?

 

[phatcat]

he made a lot of mistakes but we won. perhaps it will teach him some lessons. If this was "he can't throw" or "he's not fast enough", I'd be more worried. HOpefully he will play another 50 games for us

 

[Hungry Jack]

Unless he was freaking out, no. He needs to play against legitimate defenses as much apps possible this year.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Tough call on this, but I would have pulled him after the first half and put in Oliver. Clayton is going to be a great player, but it was more than clear he was not up to the task today. Our offense was utterly anemic in the first half and his passing was a large part of it. Due to this Duke keyed on the run game and basically shut us down. Oliver is our best passer and bringing him in would have forced Duke to respect the pass and thus they would have had to ease up on the run,
As it went. Vault's heroics, Warrens big run and a Mitchell field goal made everything ok in the end. Once again I could only listen to this game on the radio but from what I heard from Ted Albrecht, Turk was right on the money with his assessment of #18. Threw into heavy coverage, not standing tall in the pocket amidst pressure and not finishing runs. Albrecht all but chewed him out over the miss of Miles Shuler.
I feel very strongly that next Saturday McCall needs to really work on Thorson throwing the ball a lot against Ball State, because if he plays like this against Minny,it's highly unlikely that we will beat them.
Thoughts?

Yes, I would have. Thorson wasn't getting it done. You go to the bench and see if the next guy can. Maybe the next guy can't do anything or is worse (there may be a reason he's on the bench). But, you never know. Thorson was already playing so poorly. What do you have to lose?

I've seen backups like Brett Basanez, CJ Bacher, and Trevor Siemian come off the bench either in a game or between games and give us a lot more than what we were getting from the original starter. If a QB hasn't established himself, then I don't see why you wouldn't go to the bench and give the next guy a chance if the starter is struggling so bad. The miss on Miles Shuler would have sealed the game. It was a horrible, horrible throw. Worst I've seen since the Kafka backwards pass. It's not fair to the other guys on the bench, and we subbed in everyone else except two backup QBs and a kicker. Why should the QB be exempt from subbing? Especially when underperforming?

This all said, Kafka recovered down the road and became a great QB for us, and I'm sure Clayton will now, but it doesn't mean we go all in on him any more than we did with Kafka back in the day.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Tough call on this, but I would have pulled him after the first half and put in Oliver. Clayton is going to be a great player, but it was more than clear he was not up to the task today. Our offense was utterly anemic in the first half and his passing was a large part of it. Due to this Duke keyed on the run game and basically shut us down. Oliver is our best passer and bringing him in would have forced Duke to respect the pass and thus they would have had to ease up on the run,
As it went. Vault's heroics, Warrens big run and a Mitchell field goal made everything ok in the end. Once again I could only listen to this game on the radio but from what I heard from Ted Albrecht, Turk was right on the money with his assessment of #18. Threw into heavy coverage, not standing tall in the pocket amidst pressure and not finishing runs. Albrecht all but chewed him out over the miss of Miles Shuler.
I feel very strongly that next Saturday McCall needs to really work on Thorson throwing the ball a lot against Ball State, because if he plays like this against Minny,it's highly unlikely that we will beat them.
Thoughts?

No way I pull him. He had a poor game, but it is part of the growing process. We still controlled the ball for like 10 minutes in the 4th. The coaches did a nice job in this one. Tried to keep Clayton out of trouble in the second half. I think he still ran for a key first down as well.

Most importantly the team seems to clearly be in his corner. If we are chasing a couple scores you might make am change. Let's not mess with this kids head, he's going to be a good one. Duke has a very good defense and I think they will get 8 or 9 wins this year.

 

[mybrotha]

Good thoughts guys. Yep, it's a tough call and perhaps we would have seen CT pulled if not for the Vault return.

 

[GlideCat]

Good thoughts guys. Yep, it's a tough call and perhaps we would have seen CT pulled if not for the Vault return.

I never thought at any point of wanting to pull him when watching the game. I expected mistakes, expected two interceptions, and expected a terrible first half by the offense. CT maintained his composure and ran the offense. They began to take control in the second half. Yes, they needed the Vault return but we discussed going in that a pick-6 or big special teams play would be needed.

Why pull your starter when there is nothing surprising happening?

 

[phatcat]

I never thought at any point of wanting to pull him when watching the game. I expected mistakes, expected two interceptions, and expected a terrible first half by the offense. CT maintained his composure and ran the offense. They began to take control in the second half. Yes, they needed the Vault return but we discussed going in that a pick-6 or big special teams play would be needed.

Why pull your starter when there is nothing surprising happening?

disagree that he maintained his composure. He panicked and rolled out of the pocket right into the rush. Then, he never should have thrown that ball when he could have easily run for the first down. He made a lot of bad decisions. Like making the pitch when the RB was already in the grasp. I like the kid and want to stick with him, but don't put lipstick on a pig.

Remember Baz's soph year where Walk lost so much confidence in him that he pretty much abandoned the pass? that's what the latter part of the game looked like. JJ was too tired to even get down in his stance but carried it again and again.

CT is the QB. The other guys should also have some reps. but he had a bad game.

 

[SIUCatfan]

disagree that he maintained his composure. He panicked and rolled out of the pocket right into the rush. Then, he never should have thrown that ball when he could have easily run for the first down. He made a lot of bad decisions. Like making the pitch when the RB was already in the grasp. I like the kid and want to stick with him, but don't put lipstick on a pig.

Remember Baz's soph year where Walk lost so much confidence in him that he pretty much abandoned the pass? that's what the latter part of the game looked like. JJ was too tired to even get down in his stance but carried it again and again.

CT is the QB. The other guys should also have some reps. but he had a bad game.

I did think he had "happy feet" and left the pocket sooner than necessary. But, he's our QB and I would not have pulled him. He'll have four FULL games under his belt going into conference play. That should help.

 

[Sheffielder]

Tough call on this, but I would have pulled him after the first half and put in Oliver.
Thoughts?

Oliver? The same guy the coaches wouldn't let throw a pass in garbage time last week against EIU? I don't have anything against Zack and am proud to have him on our team, but for whatever reason they have decided his ship has sailed. Short of injury, they're not going to put him in.

Thorson is the guy. Sure he's got a ways to go, but he's not gonna get there by pulling him to put in guys who aren't "the guy." I have no doubt the coaches wanted to win today, but I also think they would have been willing to lose the game with Thorson in there if it meant he'd be more ready for conference play, which is what Fitz cares about the most. I'm not shy about criticizing the coaches, but it was the right choice to keep Thorson in. If we're going to nit pick about anything, maybe it should be about why McCall wasn't calling for more short passes and screens to build his confidence and completion rate, or we're not more developed at this position in the first place.

 

[techtim72]

Absolutely not. Handled by the coaches perfectly. They rolled the dice and rolled the seven. Supported CT through a difficult game and they won.

 

[RevCat]

Absolutely not. Handled by the coaches perfectly. They rolled the dice and rolled the seven. Supported CT through a difficult game and they won.

+1

The Cats never needed more than one score to tie or take the lead. This was not about abundant offensive prolixity. It was about a QB managing the game and doing just enough. Not a time to experiment. Perspective poor fan(atic)s never understand this.

 

[NUCat320]

Why pull your starter when there is nothing surprising happening?

I wouldn't have pulled him.

But "I...expected a terrible first half by the offense" and therefore wouldn't pull him is a pretty damning commentary.

There's a delicate balance. I think it's most important to show confidence in him. And 'confidence in him' means giving him the confidence to still try to make plays, even if the bar for 'making a play' is pretty low. (Hit a pass down the middle, make a wise throwaway, don't take a sack, make the right read.)

Honestly, I think the offense *would* benefit from Alviti and more dynamic running for a series or two. I think, in the long run, this duo lends itself to a KC/TS job share. But, with Thorson new and not confident and green, taking a series from him communicates lack of confidence in him, and that's the last thing you want. You're coaching for one game while also coaching for four years in a guy you think proved to be best, and you can't lose him.

I hope he plays well against BSU - I hope he puts it up 35 times - and then a wrinkle becomes a possibility.

 

[evanston09]

You don't sub him out unless he's hurt. There is a lot of long term damage that can be done. Success at quarterback is far more mental than physical, that's why it's expected that freshmen will struggle. It's different than other positions because of the required relationships with every other player on the offense. There will probably be more games like this, but long term these struggles will make him better.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Absolutely not. Not for a second would I even think about it.

When Fitz and Mick decided to name Thorson the starter, they knew this kind of game was in the cards -- staring down receivers, throwing into coverage, not being comfortable in the pocket, and pretty much everything else that went wrong against Duke were pretty typical "young QB" mistakes. QBs like Thorson who are raw but have tons of tools will have inconsistent performances.

Plus they saw some flashes of absolutely brilliant play. Shuler dropped a potential third down conversation when Thorson stepped up, took a shot from a corner blitz, and delivered the ball on target for a crosser. Nagel dropped a beautiful ball down the seam.

With our defense (that I'm increasingly convinced is for real), it's the perfect time to ride it out with a young, high upside guy.

 

[purple11]

Oliver? The same guy the coaches wouldn't let throw a pass in garbage time last week against EIU? I don't have anything against Zack and am proud to have him on our team, but for whatever reason they have decided his ship has sailed. Short of injury, they're not going to put him in.

Thorson is the guy. Sure he's got a ways to go, but he's not gonna get there by pulling him to put in guys who aren't "the guy." I have no doubt the coaches wanted to win today, but I also think they would have been willing to lose the game with Thorson in there if it meant he'd be more ready for conference play, which is what Fitz cares about the most. I'm not shy about criticizing the coaches, but it was the right choice to keep Thorson in. If we're going to nit pick about anything, maybe it should be about why McCall wasn't calling for more short passes and screens to build his confidence and completion rate, or we're not more developed at this position in the first place.

Shefflielder - I think you are doing Oliver and great disservice as well as showing your lack of knowledge. The coaches did not ALLOW Oliver to throw a pass and run up the score on EIU. If the situation were warranted and Oliver was in the game, the coaches would fully trust Oliver to pass.

As far as keeping CT in the Duke game, the coaches decision worked out thankfully, gaining the QB confidence and experience. I would have had full confidence in ZO had they put him in, as would the coaches.

Go Cats !

 

[lunker35]

Absolutely not. Not for a second would I even think about it.

When Fitz and Mick decided to name Thorson the starter, they knew this kind of game was in the cards -- staring down receivers, throwing into coverage, not being comfortable in the pocket, and pretty much everything else that went wrong against Duke were pretty typical "young QB" mistakes. QBs like Thorson who are raw but have tons of tools will have inconsistent performances.

Plus they saw some flashes of absolutely brilliant play. Shuler dropped a potential third down conversation when Thorson stepped up, took a shot from a corner blitz, and delivered the ball on target for a crosser. Nagel dropped a beautiful ball down the seam.

With our defense (that I'm increasingly convinced is for real), it's the perfect time to ride it out with a young, high upside guy.

Let's hope they don't go conservative next week against Ball State. He really needs to improve his game and it should a great opportunity to take off the training wheels a bit. My worry is that MCCall will still be conservative with him.

 

[DarthCat]

I don't think this is a tough call at all. The coaches have seen these kids play for years in practice. Based on all of that assessment, including performance on the field, film study, knowledge of the offense, command of the huddle, they decided to play a RS freshman over a senior in his fifth year in the program and a RS sophomore who was extremely highly recruited. That in itself is a pretty strong testament that they know CT is the guy.

But because a kid making his first college start on the road, against a strong defense, in his third game in two years is struggling, you don't yank him. Not unless in addition to any mistakes he's making on the field you ALSO want to rattle his confidence further and make him think that in addition to getting better, he needs to worry about keeping his job and if he'll be the starter week to week.

This is the growing/learning experience you KNOW you're going to have with a young QB that you hope, when it happens, you have the other facets of the game working to weather the storm so the kid CAN learn from it without fearing for his job. God, the kid was 2-0 as a redshirt freshman starter at a time when we moved from being 'ranked' by most publications in the 80s to #23. He just threw the first pic of his career. Let's yank him after a bad half and make it clear he's always one bad half away from losing his job.

 

[kreggk]

You don't sub him out unless he's hurt. There is a lot of long term damage that can be done. Success at quarterback is far more mental than physical, that's why it's expected that freshmen will struggle. It's different than other positions because of the required relationships with every other player on the offense. There will probably be more games like this, but long term these struggles will make him better.

Tend to agree with this line of thought.

 

[phatcat]

+1

The Cats never needed more than one score to tie or take the lead. This was not about abundant offensive prolixity. It was about a QB managing the game and doing just enough. Not a time to experiment. Perspective poor fan(atic)s never understand this.

I am ok with this if you mean "learn to manage the game" because he managed it poorly. Turning and handing it to JJ 35 times isn't managing the game. Making good decisions with the ball is. He didn't. He will. Leave him in there.

 

[purplebirder]

Living in Tucson and therefore not able to watch the game, my comments are based mainly on this forum's posts:

(1) Thorson was a highly rated recruit(one of top 10 QBs in country according to some rating services) so it is much too early to draw dire conclusions about his ability
(2) Hopefully his mistakes are due to his inexperience
(3) He is described as a "pro style" QB. Could it be that play calling needs to be adjusted to reflect this style ?

GO CATS

 

[Williesfan]

Duke was penetrating The LOS Oliver's lack of mobility would have been eviscerated. Thorson was bad today really bad pitches at the knees, under thrown passes, poor decisions, missed receivers, but he needs the reps going forward.

 

[IGNORE2]

I wouldn't have pulled him.

But "I...expected a terrible first half by the offense" and therefore wouldn't pull him is a pretty damning commentary.

There's a delicate balance. I think it's most important to show confidence in him. And 'confidence in him' means giving him the confidence to still try to make plays, even if the bar for 'making a play' is pretty low. (Hit a pass down the middle, make a wise throwaway, don't take a sack, make the right read.)

Honestly, I think the offense *would* benefit from Alviti and more dynamic running for a series or two. I think, in the long run, this duo lends itself to a KC/TS job share. But, with Thorson new and not confident and green, taking a series from him communicates lack of confidence in him, and that's the last thing you want. You're coaching for one game while also coaching for four years in a guy you think proved to be best, and you can't lose him.

I hope he plays well against BSU - I hope he puts it up 35 times - and then a wrinkle becomes a possibility.

If taking a series negatively impacts his confidence then I don't want him. This is not pee wee ball. I want a guy with a competitive thirst. I want a starter that fought for his spot, fights for every snap and, if he loses some PT, gets angry and fights harder. Keep soft and mentally weak guys off the this B1G D1 big revenue team, especially away from the spotlight QB position.

 

[Deeringfish]

You don't sub him out unless he's hurt. There is a lot of long term damage that can be done. Success at quarterback is far more mental than physical, that's why it's expected that freshmen will struggle. It's different than other positions because of the required relationships with every other player on the offense. There will probably be more games like this, but long term these struggles will make him better.

I agree with this except for one thing, the heat. Everyone else gets subbed in from time to time for a blow except the QB. I think one series, no matter how it goes, would have been acceptable. I thought he looked lethargic from the start. His passes didn't have the same zip they had in previous weeks.

 

[loyolacat]

I am a CT guy. Think he will grow into being a very solid long term qb. But am not willing to lose a game s0 he can learn from his mistakes if indeed we have a guy who in certain situations can help us. My god Ohio State the #1 team in the nation pulled their qb yesterday. I may be the only one that thought Oliver learned quickly last year and had a good 2nd half except for the pick.If Thorson does not improve in the passing game realistically what are our options when teams start to put 9 or 10 guys in the box? Also if the issue is equally the receivers fault( as it was last year) do we need a better runner in Alviti ? As good as Thorson is going to be we need better play at qb soon.

 

[Williesfan]

Is Alviti really the better runner? Last year what was his average run, maybe a yard.

 

[NJCat83588]

I am a CT guy. Think he will grow into being a very solid long term qb. But am not willing to lose a game s0 he can learn from his mistakes if indeed we have a guy who in certain situations can help us. My god Ohio State the #1 team in the nation pulled their qb yesterday. I may be the only one that thought Oliver learned quickly last year and had a good 2nd half except for the pick.If Thorson does not improve in the passing game realistically what are our options when teams start to put 9 or 10 guys in the box? Also if the issue is equally the receivers fault( as it was last year) do we need a better runner in Alviti ? As good as Thorson is going to be we need better play at qb soon.

I generally agree. The OSU comparison ain't a good one though. OSU had a potential Heisman candidate and team captain backing up their starter, so changing QBs when the starter was struggling isn't exactly bring in a scrub!

 

[NUCat320]

If taking a series negatively impacts his confidence then I don't want him. This is not pee wee ball. I want a guy with a competitive thirst. I want a starter that fought for his spot, fights for every snap and, if he loses some PT, gets angry and fights harder. Keep soft and mentally weak guys off the this B1G D1 big revenue team, especially away from the spotlight QB position.

Instilling confidence and building trust are a huge part of any coach-player relationship. They've got to let CT make mistakes and constantly let him know he's the guy. I would imagine that CT is doubting himself a bit right now, because, like all great athletes, he's his own harshest critic. It's the job of Mick and the staff to let him understand all the talent they see in him and reinforce it constantly. Pulling him has the opposite effect, and reinforces his own doubt.

Again, starting CT was a (n arguably) gutsy call, and definitely the start of a four year investment. Keeping him in the game is protecting that investment.

 

[willycat]

Instilling confidence and building trust are a huge part of any coach-player relationship. They've got to let CT make mistakes and constantly let him know he's the guy. I would imagine that CT is doubting himself a bit right now, because, like all great athletes, he's his own harshest critic. It's the job of Mick and the staff to let him understand all the talent they see in him and reinforce it constantly. Pulling him has the opposite effect, and reinforces his own doubt.

Again, starting CT was a (n arguably) gutsy call, and definitely the start of a four year investment. Keeping him in the game is protecting that investment.

Don't think that keeping anyone in the game because you see him as your guy for the next four years is the right thing to do. I see Thorson making the same mistakes when running the option that he made in the Stanford game. He seems very indeciseive when choosing to run or pitch the ball and he also seems to the almost stop running when he is about to be tackled. If passing is his strong point, he sure needs a ton of improvement there and hopefully he gets it vs Ball St. Still I think Oliver and/o Alviti need to get reps and what they can do.

 

[Titanium999]

Tough call on this, but I would have pulled him after the first half and put in Oliver. Clayton is going to be a great player, but it was more than clear he was not up to the task today. Our offense was utterly anemic in the first half and his passing was a large part of it. Due to this Duke keyed on the run game and basically shut us down. Oliver is our best passer and bringing him in would have forced Duke to respect the pass and thus they would have had to ease up on the run,
As it went. Vault's heroics, Warrens big run and a Mitchell field goal made everything ok in the end. Once again I could only listen to this game on the radio but from what I heard from Ted Albrecht, Turk was right on the money with his assessment of #18. Threw into heavy coverage, not standing tall in the pocket amidst pressure and not finishing runs. Albrecht all but chewed him out over the miss of Miles Shuler.
I feel very strongly that next Saturday McCall needs to really work on Thorson throwing the ball a lot against Ball State, because if he plays like this against Minny,it's highly unlikely that we will beat them.
Thoughts?

I would like Alviti to run a few plays as he is quicker.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Let's hope they don't go conservative next week against Ball State. He really needs to improve his game and it should a great opportunity to take off the training wheels a bit. My worry is that MCCall will still be conservative with him.

Not going to belabor the point, but the reps Thorson gets in practice the next two weeks will be a whole lot more helpful in his development than an extra 10-15 passes against a Ball State team who hasn't shown much yet this year.

 

[NUCat320]

Don't think that keeping anyone in the game because you see him as your guy for the next four years is the right thing to do. I see Thorson making the same mistakes when running the option that he made in the Stanford game. He seems very indeciseive when choosing to run or pitch the ball and he also seems to the almost stop running when he is about to be tackled. If passing is his strong point, he sure needs a ton of improvement there and hopefully he gets it vs Ball St. Still I think Oliver and/o Alviti need to get reps and what they can do.

Actually, I think running the option is an example of bad leadership and bad coaching. It's not putting him in a position to succeed because, frankly, he's not good at it yet. In a different CR thread I wrote it needed to be out of the game plan.

But leaving your 3-0 quarterback (at the time 2-0, of course) in there, because you've got a crutch (oh that defense, oh they're great) is the right call to me. He's your guy and he's got to know it.

As I also said, if he has success against ball state, I think there's room to give Alviti a package against Minnesota, but only if CT is sure he's the guy and feels he's earned it.

 

[Titanium999]

Not going to belabor the point, but the reps Thorson gets in practice the next two weeks will be a whole lot more helpful in his development than an extra 10-15 passes against a Ball State team who hasn't shown much yet this year.

Nagle dropped a beautiful pass early on. Our superback played great. Still. We need Alviti to use his speed a few times

 

[mikewebb68]

Absolutely not. Not for a second would I even think about it.

When Fitz and Mick decided to name Thorson the starter, they knew this kind of game was in the cards -- staring down receivers, throwing into coverage, not being comfortable in the pocket, and pretty much everything else that went wrong against Duke were pretty typical "young QB" mistakes. QBs like Thorson who are raw but have tons of tools will have inconsistent performances.

Plus they saw some flashes of absolutely brilliant play. Shuler dropped a potential third down conversation when Thorson stepped up, took a shot from a corner blitz, and delivered the ball on target for a crosser. Nagel dropped a beautiful ball down the seam.

With our defense (that I'm increasingly convinced is for real), it's the perfect time to ride it out with a young, high upside guy.

+1,000,000 There is a reason Fitz coaches the team and not the OP. You want to pull what the coaching staff have determined is our best option at QB for two guys who have been ineffective in important situations in which they have played?

 

[mikewebb68]

I would like Alviti to run a few plays as he is quicker.

And you know this how? How did Alvtit's pacakges in general work out for you last year? Unless I am not remembering, I saw a lot of tackles at or behind the line of scrimmage. Didn't see much like Thorson's 42 year run this year, unless I am forgetting something....

 

[NJCat83588]

Not going to belabor the point, but the reps Thorson gets in practice the next two weeks will be a whole lot more helpful in his development than an extra 10-15 passes against a Ball State team who hasn't shown much yet this year.

Does the first team offense get reps against the first team defense, or against the scout team, which is mainly people who won't play this season? Not a flame, just curious.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Nagle dropped a beautiful pass early on. Our superback played great. Still. We need Alviti to use his speed a few times

Why? There's not a lot he can do that Thorson cannot.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Does the first team offense get reps against the first team defense, or against the scout team, which is mainly people who won't play this season? Not a flame, just curious.

They'll do some "good on good," but predominantly against the 2s and/or scout teams.

 

[mybrotha]

Loyola +1 What I am trying to say is that as a coach you need to do what will win the game. If not for the Vault run back we start out losing 7 to 3. With the way Thorson played in the first half there was absolutely no reason to believe it would be any better in the second half. Furthermore, more interceptions and lack of effectiveness by our very struggling offense would then lead to a very tired defense. Yes the defense was dominating but you cannot put everything on their shoulders. If we were winning 7 zip or 10 zip then of course you leave him in there, but the fact of the matter is that his team bailed him out. Did he receive valuable experience, of course he did! But as I mentioned before McCall needs to have him throwing a lot against BS next week. They are not a power but they are better than an FCS team.

 

[mybrotha]

MikeWebb...+1 !!! Alviti showed me nothing as a runner last year. Fact of the matter is that he is NOT faster than Thorson! They both run 4.6 40s he might be a little quicker but can't hit the broad side of a barn throwing. Thus you might as well put two backs in there and run the option with them if that's what you are going to do.