Would you have pulled Thorson?

[FeliSilvestris]

Instilling confidence and building trust are a huge part of any coach-player relationship. They've got to let CT make mistakes and constantly let him know he's the guy. ...Again, starting CT was a (n arguably) gutsy call, and definitely the start of a four year investment. Keeping him in the game is protecting that investment.

So, if CT keeps on performing similarly to yesterdays the entire season we just throw the entire season away and credit that to "investment protection", right?
I find that simply crazy.
The coaching staff owes it to the entire NU community, including all the players, to make the personnel decisions that give the team the best chance to succeed NOW. No player should receive a position as an unconditional personal gift that he can keep irrespective of his performance.
Of course this does not mean that the first time a player makes a mistake he should be pulled from the game...that may be counterproductive....but leaving a player an entire game when he is clearly not performing well is detrimental to the team in many ways...it WILL cost wins, cost (better) bowl games, and it undermines team moral.

What kind of effect do you expect that to have on the other QB's? Don't they count also? How hard will they compete in practices if they know that baring an injury they will never see the field, not matter how poor the starter is doing? What kind of effect do you expect that to have on the starter himself and how hard he tries to impress his coaches in practices and during the games? What kind of effect do you expect that to have on other players, as they see that they may be pulled from the game when they aren't doing well, but certain players never are?

You have to consider every one involved. It's a team, and a program. What's best for the team is what should be done.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

So, if CT keeps on performing similarly to yesterdays the entire season we just threw the entire season and credit that to "investment protection", right?
I find that simply crazy.
The coaching staff owes it to the entire NU community, including all the players, to make the personnel decisions that give the team the best chance to succeed NOW. No player should receive a position as an unconditional personal gift that he can keep irrespective of his performance.
Of course this does not mean that the first time a player makes a mistake he should be pulled from the game...that may be counterproductive....but leaving a player an entire game when he is clearly not performing well is detrimental to the team in many ways...it WILL cost wins, cost (better) bowl games, and it undermines team moral.

What kind of effect do you expect that to have on the other QB's? Don't they count also? How hard will they compete in practices if they know that baring an injury they will never see the field, not matter how poor the starter is doing? What kind of effect do you expect that to have on the starter himself and how hard he tries to impress his coaches in practices and during the games? What kind of effect do you expect that to have on other players, as they see that they may be pulled from the game when they aren't doing well, but certain players never are?

You have to consider every one involved. It's a team, and a program. What's best for the team is what should be done.

Pretty sure they did make the right decision for right now, which happens to be the same as the right long-term decision.

 

[GlideCat]

I wouldn't have pulled him.

But "I...expected a terrible first half by the offense" and therefore wouldn't pull him is a pretty damning commentary.

Granted that is awful wording on my part but here is what I meant by it...
[ALERT: The following post contains no inside knowledge nor any experience to justify other than a lifetime armchair quarterback.]

Right now we have an inexperienced quarterback and an O-Line that remains a work in progress. Therefore, I see CT not being given a solid pocket nor being given more than 1.5 seconds to set, read, and throw. Also, I am seeing about 1 snap in 3 going low or high which takes another blink away from the time he has to make throws.

So, instead of having a 2.5 second clock in his head, he appears to have a 1.5 second clock in his head. This results in two things:

1. If his first read is covered, then he does not get a good look at his second read before throwing, or
2. He appears to break and run early as he is not trusting his pocket.

The second thing that I am seeing is that he is not yet great at squaring up and throwing on the run which tends to take a lot off of his throws.

Therefore, I did expect that our offense would struggle in the first half against a smallish but fast Duke D-Line.

If you look at the weaknesses addressed above, the correction process is simple (although not easy):

1. Get improvement on the O-Line
2. Get CT enough time behind the improving O-Line to develop trust and lengthen the countdown in his head
3. Work with CT to improve some fundamentals of reads and throwing on the run

None of this happens with him sitting on the bench.

 

[mybrotha]

Granted that is awful wording on my part but here is what I meant by it...
[ALERT: The following post contains no inside knowledge nor any experience to justify other than a lifetime armchair quarterback.]

Right now we have an inexperienced quarterback and an O-Line that remains a work in progress. Therefore, I see CT not being given a solid pocket nor being given more than 1.5 seconds to set, read, and throw. Also, I am seeing about 1 snap in 3 going low or high which takes another blink away from the time he has to make throws.

So, instead of having a 2.5 second clock in his head, he appears to have a 1.5 second clock in his head. This results in two things:

1. If his first read is covered, then he does not get a good look at his second read before throwing, or
2. He appears to break and run early as he is not trusting his pocket.

The second thing that I am seeing is that he is not yet great at squaring up and throwing on the run which tends to take a lot off of his throws.

Therefore, I did expect that our offense would struggle in the first half against a smallish but fast Duke D-Line.

If you look at the weaknesses addressed above, the correction process is simple (although not easy):

1. Get improvement on the O-Line
2. Get CT enough time behind the improving O-Line to develop trust and lengthen the countdown in his head
3. Work with CT to improve some fundamentals of reads and throwing on the run

None of this happens with him sitting on the bench.

Glidecat I cannot argue with any of that. Seems to me we should maybe roll Clayton out more. Finally McCall did this with Trevor late in the Michigan game last year with great results!

 

[Just Gary]

CT played poorly and at half time we had only generated 58 yards of offense. The interceptions were forced throws into double coverage which never should have been made. My thoughts were at half that if we did not get the offense moving by mid third quarter, we would need to do something different. I would not have used Oliver, though, because the pocket was collapsing too fast. Alviti would have been a better choice because there were times in the first half that a better lateral running QB would have gained yards. However, when Solomon ran the kick-off back on the first play of the 3rd quarter, the game changed as we now had the lead and didn't need as much offense. And then the offense finally put a drive together that got us in FG range. That solidified keeping CT in for the rest of the game (as long as he doesn't make a costly mistake). In reality, CT didn't contribute much to the win and I think any of the QBs could have done the same.

 

[evanston09]

If taking a series negatively impacts his confidence then I don't want him. This is not pee wee ball. I want a guy with a competitive thirst. I want a starter that fought for his spot, fights for every snap and, if he loses some PT, gets angry and fights harder. Keep soft and mentally weak guys off the this B1G D1 big revenue team, especially away from the spotlight QB position.

this is a tremendously outdated approach. having a competitive thirst, fighting for his spot, and confidence are completely parallel items. An athlete can be as competitive as possible, but if they are pulled or do not have predictable playing time, or are not allowed to work through mistakes they will be affected. They are human. Mental toughness is working through adversity, not being unaffected by coaching decisions, because everyone is affected by those. However, quarterback is the most mental position and its not close.

 

[IGNORE2]

Instilling confidence and building trust are a huge part of any coach-player relationship. They've got to let CT make mistakes and constantly let him know he's the guy. I would imagine that CT is doubting himself a bit right now, because, like all great athletes, he's his own harshest critic. It's the job of Mick and the staff to let him understand all the talent they see in him and reinforce it constantly. Pulling him has the opposite effect, and reinforces his own doubt.

Again, starting CT was a (n arguably) gutsy call, and definitely the start of a four year investment. Keeping him in the game is protecting that investment.

Sure, but it is very common to see two QB systems. Very common to see the #2 get a series or two for experience. If CT is sooo fragile, then I stand by my statement. I rather have an edgy competitive man holding the reins. If giving up some PT to allow another QB to develop, to catch your breath, to maybe give you a kick in the arse - results in a mental breakdown, how can you handle all the pressure inherent to the position?

 

[IGNORE2]

Not going to belabor the point, but the reps Thorson gets in practice the next two weeks will be a whole lot more helpful in his development than an extra 10-15 passes against a Ball State team who hasn't shown much yet this year.

Great, then let MA or ZO get in there and run some real series. I'm sure the reps they get doing this in a live game will be a whole lot more helpful in their development than running up the gut 10-15 times against a Ball State team who hasn't shown much yet this year.

 

[IGNORE2]

And you know this how? How did Alvtit's pacakges in general work out for you last year? Unless I am not remembering, I saw a lot of tackles at or behind the line of scrimmage. Didn't see much like Thorson's 42 year run this year, unless I am forgetting something....

You are forgetting the broken and beaten TS. Unless YOU know something we don't know, there is a better than fair chance that CT will miss a series this season due to injury. Then what? Throw the white flag since you have written off the remaining QBs? What is your great insight for that likely scenario? Why even waste a roster spot with extra QBs - I'm sure someone else can hold a clipboard? Please share with the class...

 

[IGNORE2]

this is a tremendously outdated approach. having a competitive thirst, fighting for his spot, and confidence are completely parallel items. An athlete can be as competitive as possible, but if they are pulled or do not have predictable playing time, or are not allowed to work through mistakes they will be affected. They are human. Mental toughness is working through adversity, not being unaffected by coaching decisions, because everyone is affected by those. However, quarterback is the most mental position and its not close.

I agree it has become outdated. But I do not believe that to be a good thing. I think this is a situation where we as a society have gotten soft. Remove the parallel lines, place competitive thirst and talent in the fuel tank to drive confidence right into winning your spot. I don't believe in participation trophies. If you don't win, find something else you are good at. I think our societal approach has left people lingering where they don't belong and detracted from their pursuit of their ultimate strengths.

 

[aquacat]

I think people are forgetting how good duke's defense is. They have 2 NFL quality safeties. Good college defenses will have one. Great college defenses will have two. Three is virtually impossible unless you are Ohio state in a national championship year. Our receivers weren't getting great separation against this strong secondary.

CT has the ability to run as well as throw. The other quarterbacks do not. CT helps keep the defenses honest. If you put alviti in, Duke would have stacked the box. If you placed Oliver in, you lose the possibility of the QB scrambling if no receivers can get open (which Thorson had to do multiple times in the game).

 

[TypeO]

Uh, no! Thorson is already a better QB than Oliver ever was. Furthermore, I counted at least three drops by the WR's in the first half. I think things worked out OK. With our defense and improved special-teams, we should be in every game. Thorson (or any QB) will not have to carry the team.