Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
We have progressed nicely as a society haven't we.Damn these are some disheartening times we live in. Growing up, we had fire alarm drills. Now kids have active shooter drills in all grades.
It’s sequential. First, get out of the way. If you can’t, don’t let the shooter know where you are. If not possible, go be a hero.How does one run, hide AND fight?
Huh?It’s sequential. First, get out of the way. If you can’t, don’t let the shooter know where you are. If not possible, go be a hero.
Now, the standardized training for schools is called ALICE
Alert
Lockdown
Inform
Counter
Evacuate
I think in this case, Lockdown and Hide are one and the same. Teacher locks the door, maybe puts a barrier in front of it. AND the kids all hide in a location that would be difficult to see from the hallway. Maybe a closet. Maybe behind the teacher’s desk. Maybe just in a corner that shares a wall with the outside.
Run Hide Fight seems like more of an open-air, self-preservation thing for shooters at places where you’re effectively alone, like parades or country music festivals or grocery stores . ALICE training is more when you’ve got a routine and can plan a little, like elementary schools or middle schools or high schools or private schools or more rarely offices.
Michigan State was more of a Run Hide Fight scenario. Oxford was more of a ALICE scenario.
Anyway, sounds like this was just a spare bullet or two, so everyone is fine. Guns are good and important, and occasional gunfire just means everyone is safer.
Parents never get warnings on fire drill days. We get a week’s notice for ALICE days.
They tell us "Avoid Barricade Confront" ABC as the equivalent of "Run Hide Fight" in our periodic training at our office in Midtown NYC. As 320 tells us, it's sequential in terms of priority, first try to avoid, then try to protect yourself, confront is the last option but is probably better than going down without a fight if that's going to happen anyways.It’s sequential. First, get out of the way. If you can’t, don’t let the shooter know where you are. If not possible, go be a hero.
Now, the standardized training for schools is called ALICE
Alert
Lockdown
Inform
Counter
Evacuate
I think in this case, Lockdown and Hide are one and the same. Teacher locks the door, maybe puts a barrier in front of it. AND the kids all hide in a location that would be difficult to see from the hallway. Maybe a closet. Maybe behind the teacher’s desk. Maybe just in a corner that shares a wall with the outside.
Run Hide Fight seems like more of an open-air, self-preservation thing for shooters at places where you’re effectively alone, like parades or country music festivals or grocery stores . ALICE training is more when you’ve got a routine and can plan a little, like elementary schools or middle schools or high schools or private schools or more rarely offices.
Michigan State was more of a Run Hide Fight scenario. Oxford was more of a ALICE scenario.
Anyway, sounds like this was just a spare bullet or two, so everyone is fine. Guns are good and important, and occasional gunfire just means everyone is safer.
Parents never get warnings on fire drill days. We get a week’s notice for ALICE days.
At the risk of either having my post deleted or being banned from the board, I would add a 4th - carry!They tell us "Avoid Barricade Confront" ABC as the equivalent of "Run Hide Fight" in our periodic training at our office in Midtown NYC. As 320 tells us, it's sequential in terms of priority, first try to avoid, then try to protect yourself, confront is the last option but is probably better than going down without a fight if that's going to happen anyways.
There are multiple ways to respond to an active shooter situation, depending on if it happens in an outdoor open space or in an enclosed space like an office or building.Huh?
At the risk of either having my post deleted or being banned from the board, I would add a 4th - carry!
There are multiple ways to respond to an active shooter situation, depending on if it happens in an outdoor open space or in an enclosed space like an office or building.
Our kids practice at their school at least once a year.
For what it’s worth, the Super Bowl parade shooters were disarmed without a firearm.
Are there circumstances where you’ve used your weapon in a public place? No judgment, just curious.
If you were carrying and an active shooter situation emerged, would you go with Run/Hide/Fight, or would you start with fight?
Wait now I’m more confused.Not you, you're pretty much on my side of the street. You can guess who it was directed at, and that would be none of the posters on this thread!
Plenty of good guys had guns in Uvalde, and yet they did nothing while a madman massacred children with a semi-automatic.Classic “good guy with a gun” fallacy.
There are multiple ways to respond to an active shooter situation, depending on if it happens in an outdoor open space or in an enclosed space like an office or building.
Our kids practice at their school at least once a year.
For what it’s worth, the Super Bowl parade shooters were disarmed without a firearm.
Are there circumstances where you’ve used your weapon in a public place? No judgment, just curious.
If you were carrying and an active shooter situation emerged, would you go with Run/Hide/Fight, or would you start with fight?
You don’t necessarily need another gun to fight an active shooter.Classic “good guy with a gun” fallacy.
More dead kids! More dead kids! YippeeAt the risk of either having my post deleted or being banned from the board, I would add a 4th - carry!
Funny how that works, huh.Plenty of good guys had guns in Uvalde, and yet they did nothing while a madman massacred children with a semi-automatic.
I know this will get deleted. So be it.
When I was growing up, we had atomic bomb drills. We learned that if you put your head down on your desk and closed all the curtains that we would be safe from a nuclear explosion.Damn these are some disheartening times we live in. Growing up, we had fire alarm drills. Now kids have active shooter drills in all grades.
When I was growing up, we had atomic bomb drills. We learned that if you put your head down on your desk and closed all the curtains that we would be safe from a nuclear explosion.
Believe me, I would have loved to gone into all of the data that goes against your post, but considering it would be political in nature, I simply removed yours instead.You're a jerk!
It’s a shame that it has become a political topic, but it has. We’re not going to solve any big problems because of political tribalism. It’s depressing.Believe me, I would have loved to gone into all of the data that goes against your post, but considering it would be political in nature, I simply removed yours instead.
Believe me, I would have loved to gone into all of the data that goes against your post, but considering it would be political in nature, I simply removed yours instead.
NCRU, In the ‘50’s at my schools in Chicago every Tuesday at 10:15 or 10:30 the air raid sirens would sound and the drill was to shelter under our desks to protect us from falling debris.When I was growing up, we had atomic bomb drills. We learned that if you put your head down on your desk and closed all the curtains that we would be safe from a nuclear explosion.
Protect and defendThere are multiple ways to respond to an active shooter situation, depending on if it happens in an outdoor open space or in an enclosed space like an office or building.
Our kids practice at their school at least once a year.
For what it’s worth, the Super Bowl parade shooters were disarmed without a firearm.
Are there circumstances where you’ve used your weapon in a public place? No judgment, just curious.
If you were carrying and an active shooter situation emerged, would you go with Run/Hide/Fight, or would you start with fight?
So it actually sounds like your kid had a gun pulled on him, which is terrible, and survived, which is wonderful. There was no need to protect or defend. He simply didn’t escalate. Good for him, and better for you. I’m happy he survived.Protect and defend
@WaveJumper, I asked before, because I’m interested. Have you ever used your firearm in public?My second post was to pull your chain, which apparently, it did.
However, my original post, which you chose to delete, was about the actual, versus perceived effectiveness, of the "Protect Illinois Communities Act", (PICA) that makes new purchases of previously legal firearms (AR 15's in particular, along with many other restricted items) now illegal, and requires current owners of those firearms to register them with the state.
So here's some data for you that is NOT political, but judging the effectiveness of PICA might be.
There are approximately 2.4 million FOID (Firearm Owners Identification Card) holders in the state of Illinois. It's probably reasonable to assume that if one is a FOID card holder, one probably owns a firearm.
Now PICA was passed around a year ago and went into effect on January 1, 2024.
On January 1, 2024 anybody that possessed an AR 15 and resided in Illinois was required to register his AR 15's with the state police. And approximately 16,000 FOID card holders registered approximately 54,000 AR 15's with the state police prior to 1/1/24. If my math is correct, that's an average of a little over 3.3 AR 15's per FOID card holder.
As mentioned, Illinois has 2.4 million FOID card holders, but I'm not going to suggest that there are 8,100,000 AR 15's in Illinois. But I wouldn't be surprised at all, if there were between 1.5 to 2.0 million. So it would appear that as many as a million or more AR 15's in Illinois have not been registered with the State Police. Do you think that any of those suspected million AR 15's will EVER be registered with the state police when the owners are currently in violation of the law, and ninety percent of the sheriffs in the state have said that they will not be enforcing PICA? There's another fly in the ointment of PICA which also limits its effectiveness, but we've covered enough ground for now.
Oh yeah, not to worry about mine! Last year, I gifted them to a law abiding relative who lives in another state.
So back to my original question, How effective is PICA, or put another way, do you feel safer because of it, or, another way, has it effectively addressed a real problem?
Anxiously waiting for your reasoned response, or another deletion, or a ban, whichever makes you feel better.
Sigh...sure.My second post was to pull your chain, which apparently, it did.
However, my original post, which you chose to delete, was about the actual, versus perceived effectiveness, of the "Protect Illinois Communities Act", (PICA) that makes new purchases of previously legal firearms (AR 15's in particular, along with many other restricted items) now illegal, and requires current owners of those firearms to register them with the state.
So here's some data for you that is NOT political, but judging the effectiveness of PICA might be.
There are approximately 2.4 million FOID (Firearm Owners Identification Card) holders in the state of Illinois. It's probably reasonable to assume that if one is a FOID card holder, one probably owns a firearm.
Now PICA was passed around a year ago and went into effect on January 1, 2024.
On January 1, 2024 anybody that possessed an AR 15 and resided in Illinois was required to register his AR 15's with the state police. And approximately 16,000 FOID card holders registered approximately 54,000 AR 15's with the state police prior to 1/1/24. If my math is correct, that's an average of a little over 3.3 AR 15's per FOID card holder.
As mentioned, Illinois has 2.4 million FOID card holders, but I'm not going to suggest that there are 8,100,000 AR 15's in Illinois. But I wouldn't be surprised at all, if there were between 1.5 to 2.0 million. So it would appear that as many as a million or more AR 15's in Illinois have not been registered with the State Police. Do you think that any of those suspected million AR 15's will EVER be registered with the state police when the owners are currently in violation of the law, and ninety percent of the sheriffs in the state have said that they will not be enforcing PICA? There's another fly in the ointment of PICA which also limits its effectiveness, but we've covered enough ground for now.
Oh yeah, not to worry about mine! Last year, I gifted them to a law abiding relative who lives in another state.
So back to my original question, How effective is PICA, or put another way, do you feel safer because of it, or, another way, has it effectively addressed a real problem?
Anxiously waiting for your reasoned response, or another deletion, or a ban, whichever makes you feel better.
New Jersey doesn’t strike me as a safe state. I feel safer in Texas where the good guys are armed and they can stop the bad guys cold with the sensible stand your ground laws there. Bad guys don't come around and steal so much when the consequences are a few rounds in their head.Sigh...sure.
1) You are assuming that anyone with a FOID also owns 1 or more AR 15s, except that a FOID is required to own any kind of firearm, so you are conflating these two numbers and you cannot extrapolate just from the number of AR 15s registered against FOID holders.
2) As has been well established, the borders of Illinois are not sealed, and therefore any legislation intended to reduce the amount of guns in Illinois will always be defeated by the presence of Indiana, Wisconsin, Mississippi, and any other state that has lax laws.
3) One would think sheriffs would feel safer knowing that they don't have to worry that anyone might have a gun whenever they need to have an encounter with the population and would therefore be in support of enforcing PICA
4) In my nanny state of New Jersey, we don't have to worry about mass shootings, as we are consistently at the bottom of firearm deaths by state, owing in part to very strict gun laws and the strictness of surrounding states.
Your read on state rates is incorrect, of course. New Jersey is in fact third from the bottom in firearm mortality. California is eighth from the bottom.New Jersey doesn’t strike me as a safe state. I feel safer in Texas where the good guys are armed and they can stop the bad guys cold with the sensible stand your ground laws there. Bad guys don't come around and steal so much when the consequences are a few rounds in their head.
Vs. California. Which has strict gun laws that do nothing to put guns out of the hands of the bad guys. And the good guys have to worry about getting robbed and getting smashed and grabbed because they have even loonier laws where it isnt a real crime if youre stealing as long as its less than $900. I mean what idiot came up with that idea and why didn't they forsee what would naturally happen?
Don't mess with Texas.
Whatta we gonna do next, arm our sports teams, just in case Rutgers comes to town packin' heat?New Jersey doesn’t strike me as a safe state. I feel safer in Texas where the good guys are armed and they can stop the bad guys cold with the sensible stand your ground laws there. Bad guys don't come around and steal so much when the consequences are a few rounds in their head.
Vs. California. Which has strict gun laws that do nothing to put guns out of the hands of the bad guys. And the good guys have to worry about getting robbed and getting smashed and grabbed because they have even loonier laws where it isnt a real crime if youre stealing as long as its less than $900. I mean what idiot came up with that idea and why didn't they forsee what would naturally happen?
Don't mess with Texas.
This is pure fantasy.New Jersey doesn’t strike me as a safe state. I feel safer in Texas where the good guys are armed and they can stop the bad guys cold with the sensible stand your ground laws there. Bad guys don't come around and steal so much when the consequences are a few rounds in their head.
Vs. California. Which has strict gun laws that do nothing to put guns out of the hands of the bad guys. And the good guys have to worry about getting robbed and getting smashed and grabbed because they have even loonier laws where it isnt a real crime if youre stealing as long as its less than $900. I mean what idiot came up with that idea and why didn't they forsee what would naturally happen?
Don't mess with Texas.
More guns equals more gun deaths. I don’t think that’s really debatable. I think we have 3 or 4 times more accidental gun deaths each year (around 500) than England has gun homocides. I understand the horse has left the barn and there are so many guns out there that any legislation now won’t be nearly as impactful. But I fear for my kids when they go out to bars. Drunk idiots (who may be “good guys”) can now shoot someone when they perceive a threat. It’s crazy to me.This is pure fantasy.
Most mass shootings in Texas were no different than other mass shootings in the USA. Most recently, no armed citizen heroically intervened to stop the 2023 mass shooting that resulted in eight deaths at a mall in Allen, near Dallas. Shootings at Walmart in El Paso, various schools, and random outbursts like Midland-Odessa all were ended by police.
Unless you’re in a church. Christians apparently love their firearms - one shooting at a church in 2019 ended with an armed congregation member, apparently part of the volunteer security team, killing the shooter. A lot of other members were packing heat. The name of the town: White Settlement, Texas. You can’t make up this shit. Bad choice by the shooter.
and Salma Hayek doesn't strike @Hungry Jack as being married; rather, she is deeply attracted to him and will be knocking on his door imminently.New Jersey doesn’t strike me as a safe state. I feel safer in Texas where the good guys are armed and they can stop the bad guys cold with the sensible stand your ground laws there. Bad guys don't come around and steal so much when the consequences are a few rounds in their head.
Vs. California. Which has strict gun laws that do nothing to put guns out of the hands of the bad guys. And the good guys have to worry about getting robbed and getting smashed and grabbed because they have even loonier laws where it isnt a real crime if youre stealing as long as its less than $900. I mean what idiot came up with that idea and why didn't they forsee what would naturally happen?
Don't mess with Texas.
1) You are assuming that anyone with a FOID also owns 1 or more AR 15s, except that a FOID is required to own any kind of firearm, so you are conflating these two numbers and you cannot extrapolate just from the number of AR 15s registered against FOID holders.