OT Lebron James is the best that has ever played

[Turk]

After watching another display of super elite basketball by King James, I'm convinced that he is the best player who has ever played the game. I never saw much of Russell, but he is far ahead of Jabbar and Jordan. Plus, King James may also have more integrity than anyone else that has played the game as well.

Few can accomplish what he has, and who else can bring a NBA championship to a small city in the Midwest? 4 more games will wrap it up. Bottom line.

 

[NJCat83588]

After watching another display of super elite basketball by King James, I'm convinced that he is the best player who has ever played the game. I never saw much of Russell, but he is far ahead of Jabbar and Jordan. Plus, King James may also have more integrity than anyone else that has played the game as well.

Few can accomplish what he has, and who else can bring a NBA championship to a small city in the Midwest? 4 more games will wrap it up. Bottom line.

Sorry, as an Akron native I want to believe LBJ is the best. But Jordan was better. Magic was probably also better. And although it was a different era, Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson were probably better too.

But James is darn good. The problem I have with him is he is at his best when the focus is all on him. When he has better players around him (like when Love and Irving were healthy) he kind of loses focus. He wants it to be the King and his Court, 4 role players surrounding him. We'll see if that recipe can finally bring a Championship to CLE after 51 years of waiting.

 

[Turk]

Sorry, as an Akron native I want to believe LBJ is the best. But Jordan was better. Magic was probably also better. And although it was a different era, Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson were probably better too.

But James is darn good. The problem I have with him is he is at his best when the focus is all on him. When he has better players around him (like when Love and Irving were healthy) he kind of loses focus. He wants it to be the King and his Court, 4 role players surrounding him. We'll see if that recipe can finally bring a Championship to CLE after 51 years of waiting.

He has a good chance. Not since the Browns, back in the day. Cavs been around since when, 1972? I think they have a chance to win 4 or 5 championships in a row like the Buckeyes. Did Cincy ever win a NBA championship before they went to Cali?

 

[beetlemania74]

Few can accomplish what he has, and who else can bring a NBA championship to a small city in the Midwest? 4 more games will wrap it up. Bottom line.

Warriors will beat Cavs in six games. LeBron's nice playoff run is over. No one else has been able to keep up with the Warriors, and the Cavs won't be able to either. Curry is the best player in the league, and the Warriors will stifle the Cavs on defense, to the point where LeBron shuts down like he typically does when things don't go his way. Close but no cigar, Cleveland.

 

[NJCat83588]

Warriors will beat Cavs in six games. LeBron's nice playoff run is over. No one else has been able to keep up with the Warriors, and the Cavs won't be able to either. Curry is the best player in the league, and the Warriors will stifle the Cavs on defense, to the point where LeBron shuts down like he typically does when things don't go his way. Close but no cigar, Cleveland.

I agree Oakland will win, probably in 5. Cavs are just too banged up. Curry is by far the best shooter in the league, but no way is he the best player. Swap Curry and LBJ: Curry doesn't take this collection of Cleveland mis-fit toys to the playoffs, while with LBJ the Warriors win 70 games in the regular season. Oakland is just plain better and healthier.

 

[beetlemania74]

Curry is by far the best shooter in the league, but no way is he the best player. Swap Curry and LBJ: Curry doesn't take this collection of Cleveland mis-fit toys to the playoffs, while with LBJ the Warriors win 70 games in the regular season. Oakland is just plain better and healthier.

Not sure I agree with this. Golden State is so dangerous because of their excellent guard play and because Curry is so good at distributing the ball as well. Their ball movement, as well as player movement off the ball, is lethal. LeBron is fantastic, but he's a different type of player. Golden State is what they are (a fantastic basketball team) in large part because of Curry.

 

[Styre]

The problem I have with him is he is at his best when the focus is all on him. When he has better players around him (like when Love and Irving were healthy) he kind of loses focus. He wants it to be the King and his Court, 4 role players surrounding him. We'll see if that recipe can finally bring a Championship to CLE after 51 years of waiting.

But when he's had better players around him, like in Miami and now in Cleveland, he's been to five straight Finals. Before that, he made the Finals once in 7 years in Cleveland when he was surrounded by mediocre talent. Not sure how that demonstrates a loss of focus.

 

[hdhntr1]

After watching another display of super elite basketball by King James, I'm convinced that he is the best player who has ever played the game. I never saw much of Russell, but he is far ahead of Jabbar and Jordan. Plus, King James may also have more integrity than anyone else that has played the game as well.

Few can accomplish what he has, and who else can bring a NBA championship to a small city in the Midwest? 4 more games will wrap it up. Bottom line.

It is hard to say one is the best of all time because they don't end up playing each other and often play at different positions. The top players are often unique for their era and game changers and often they build on the backs of those that went before. Is he the best now? Looks like it. Isn't that enough? George Mika brought a title to Minneapolis, Alcindor to Milwaukee so he isn't the first to do it for as small city in Midwest.

 

[Turk]

It is hard to say one is the best of all time because they don't end up playing each other and often play at different positions. The top players are often unique for their era and game changers and often they build on the backs of those that went before. Is he the best now? Looks like it. Isn't that enough? George Mika brought a title to Minneapolis, Alcindor to Milwaukee so he isn't the first to do it for as small city in Midwest.

Both of those players were associated with a Midwest team that moved, ie.., Minneapolis Lakers {land of 10,000 lakes]. Hopefully, Giblert keeps the Cavs in Cleveland.

 

[Styre]

Both of those players were associated with a Midwest team that moved

Alcindor won a championship for the Milwaukee Bucks. They are still in Milwaukee.

 

[beetlemania74]

It is hard to say one is the best of all time because they don't end up playing each other and often play at different positions. The top players are often unique for their era and game changers and often they build on the backs of those that went before. Is he the best now? Looks like it. Isn't that enough? George Mika brought a title to Minneapolis, Alcindor to Milwaukee so he isn't the first to do it for as small city in Midwest.

One good way to compare players between eras is to count championship rings. Jordan has six. He went to six NBA finals, and he won all six. That says something right there, in my opinion. Before this season, LeBron had been to five NBA finals and had won only two of them. Now he's in his sixth, and I think he's going to lose this one as well. Kobe has five rings, as does Tim Duncan. LeBron has two. In my opinion, he needs to catch up with those other guys before he's in the GOAT conversation. He's looked great so far during the playoffs, but he's got one more series to go, and it's going to be tough.

 

[NJCat83588]

One good way to compare players between eras is to count championship rings. Jordan has six. He went to six NBA finals, and he won all six. That says something right there, in my opinion. Before this season, LeBron had been to five NBA finals and had won only two of them. Now he's in his sixth, and I think he's going to lose this one as well. Kobe has five rings, as does Tim Duncan. LeBron has two. In my opinion, he needs to catch up with those other guys before he's in the GOAT conversation. He's looked great so far during the playoffs, but he's got one more series to go, and it's going to be tough.

To be fair, look at the teams Michael played on: Pippen was better than any teammate LBJ has had. The Bulls had some great teams. Miami and CLE have not been great teams. I think Michael was the GOAT but he doesn't win 6 rings without great teammates.

 

[Deeringfish]

Part of Jordan's greatness was his ability to bring such a strong group together and keep them together. No one else ever was able to work with so many stars and keep the egos from destroying the team. No one ever got as much out of Dennis Rodman as Jordan did and he played BJ Armstrong like a flute.

To be fair, look at the teams Michael played on: Pippen was better than any teammate LBJ has had. The Bulls had some great teams. Miami and CLE have not been great teams. I think Michael was the GOAT but he doesn't win 6 rings without great teammates.

 

[Styre]

To be fair, look at the teams Michael played on: Pippen was better than any teammate LBJ has had. The Bulls had some great teams. Miami and CLE have not been great teams. I think Michael was the GOAT but he doesn't win 6 rings without great teammates.

I would argue that the Miami Heat, who won the East all four years LeBron was there along with two championships, were indeed a great team. Not *as* great but certainly those teams were loaded.

 

[beetlemania74]

To be fair, look at the teams Michael played on: Pippen was better than any teammate LBJ has had. The Bulls had some great teams. Miami and CLE have not been great teams. I think Michael was the GOAT but he doesn't win 6 rings without great teammates.

No, I wouldn't say that Pippen was better than D. Wade. Plus LeBron had Bosh, another star player, with him in Miami. Those guys lost two NBA finals series (of course, they won two as well). That's on LeBron to some extent.

Kobe won two titles with the likes of Pau Gasol, Derek Fisher, Lamar Odom, and Ron Artest. Were those all-star lineups? No. Tim Duncan won five titles with Tony Parker, M. Ginobili, and a bunch of role players (fine, David Robinson was in on the first two, and K. Leonard on the last). Great players make great teams. Jordan was the greatest of all time. LeBron's still got something to prove, and it'll start by winning the title in Cleveland this year. If he fails, that'll be four NBA finals series losses in a career. That'll stick. He better win.

 

[NJCat83588]

LeBron's still got something to prove, and it'll start by winning the title in Cleveland this year. If he fails, that'll be four NBA finals series losses in a career. That'll stick. He better win.

The Cavs outside of LBJ are a mediocre line-up of mis-fit toys with Love out and Irving hurt. Can you objectively say that they are anywhere close to the teams Kobe or Michael won with? Please. And the 2007 Cav team was even worse. One player does not a title win, or Michael would have won every year.

 

[beetlemania74]

The Cavs outside of LBJ are a mediocre line-up of mis-fit toys with Love out and Irving hurt. Can you objectively say that they are anywhere close to the teams Kobe or Michael won with? Please. And the 2007 Cav team was even worse. One player does not a title win, or Michael would have won every year.

Hey, Michael did win every year, or at least the last six years he was a Bull....

What LeBron's done so far has been impressive. I'll give you that. And no, I don't think this current Cavs team is as good as Kobe's Shaq-less Lakers. But what they've done so far is to win an inferior Eastern Conference. That's still a big step from winning the title. Frankly, I think 4-5 of the Western Conference teams, including the two still playing, would beat them in the Finals. If the Cavs can win it all this year, then that would be an impressive feat.

 

[lunker35]

He also took I hiatus in the prime of his career that would have likely resulted in two more titles. Lebron is a great player, but Jordan is in another class with his overall game. We rarely hear it, but he was probably the best defender of all time. He also carried himself so much better than LBJ who is constantly whining acting out like a 5 year old who missed a meal when calls don't go his way. Can you imagine if LBJ had to play the Pistons or the Kincks of Jordan's era?

 

[Styre]

He also carried himself so much better than LBJ who is constantly whining acting out like a 5 year old who missed a meal when calls don't go his way.

You know that Jordan was and is a raging, uncontrollable asshole, right? He was also the beneficiary of the greatest marketing machine in the history of professional sports, so that side of him was rarely allowed out in public.

 

[NJCat83588]

Can you imagine if LBJ had to play the Pistons or the Kincks of Jordan's era?

Would that be Ray Davies and crew of the Kincks?

 

[Gladeskat]

He also took I hiatus in the prime of his career that would have likely resulted in two more titles. Lebron is a great player, but Jordan is in another class with his overall game. We rarely hear it, but he was probably the best defender of all time. He also carried himself so much better than LBJ who is constantly whining acting out like a 5 year old who missed a meal when calls don't go his way. Can you imagine if LBJ had to play the Pistons or the Kincks of Jordan's era?

Lebron is also an excellent defender. Saying one of the only two players I can think of in NBA history (the other being Magic) who can play every position on the floor and play them very well, lacks the overall game of Jordan seems odd to me. The only thing he is not doing well in the playoffs right now is shooting 3's. Otherwise, he accounts for at least half of his teams points and is averaging close to a triple double in the playoffs.

I think they're in the same class (MJ and LBJ), but one has proven himself with 6 rings and the other is still working on his ring total. What Lebron is doing right now has been pretty amazing, beating the Bulls and Atlanta (60-22) badly with his two best teammates out for the Chicago series and most of the Atlanta series. How would Jordan do without Pippen and Grant or Rodman (though Pippen is better than Irving or Love)? Seemed to me he had to wait until Chicago acquired Pippen and Grant before he could win a championship.

 

[lunker35]

Would that be Ray Davies and crew of the Kincks?

Starks comes to mind. I still cringe when I think of him.

 

[shakes3858]

Lebron is also an excellent defender. Saying one of the only two players I can think of in NBA history (the other being Magic) who can play every position on the floor and play them very well, lacks the overall game of Jordan seems odd to me. The only thing he is not doing well in the playoffs right now is shooting 3's. Otherwise, he accounts for at least half of his teams points and is averaging close to a triple double in the playoffs.

I think they're in the same class (MJ and LBJ), but one has proven himself with 6 rings and the other is still working on his ring total. What Lebron is doing right now has been pretty amazing, beating the Bulls and Atlanta (60-22) badly with his two best teammates out for the Chicago series and most of the Atlanta series. How would Jordan do without Pippen and Grant or Rodman (though Pippen is better than Irving or Love)? Seemed to me he had to wait until Chicago acquired Pippen and Grant before he could win a championship.

Unless you're literally trying to make the rest of the team so bad that Jordan couldn't win with them, Jordan would've won with everyone. Stop it with the Scottie Pippen myth. He was an above average player that Jordan made look like one of the top players of all time. Grant and Rodman were defenders and rebounders. Grant had a little jump shot, Rodman was an offensive liability. Jordan made mediocre point guards like Paxon and Armstrong a lot of money after they left Chicago. Ron Harper put up some big numbers before Chicago, but was always on losing teams.

If you would've given Jordan, Wade, Bosh, and the rest of the Heat, it's likely they would not have lost a game. If Jordan would've played in this era with the lack of physical defense and the hand checking rules, he would've averaged as many points as he wanted.

Why do people bring up the "he can play all 5 positions argument?" I guess it's good that you can move a player around a bit... but until you can play a guy at all 5 positions AT THE SAME TIME it's meaningless for superstars. You build a team around a star player, not have a star player play a different position because he can while shuffling pieces in. Imagine Jordan playing the 3 (which he could) because Clyde Drexler was the 2?

Additionally, Jordan took 2 years off in his prime and had 3 years after his second retirement that he could've been an superstar. He averaged 20, 6 and 4.5 with the Wizards after he took 3 years off.

It's not even a question: Lebron is great and is most likely more physically gifted. Jordan was at another level when it came to the competitive drive and desire to win. Lebron gets a pass to the NBA finals every year because there are no good teams in the East. He's 2/5 in the finals. He failed couldn't get through the Garnett Celtics twice and the Dwight Howard Magic once. Jordan had to go through the Bad Boy Pistons, the Bird Celtics, the Ewing Knicks, the Shaq Magic, the Reggie Miller Pacers, the Barkley 76ers, and the Price/Nance/Daughtery Cavs. Jordan did it 6 times against all the best teams.

 

[Gladeskat]

Unless you're literally trying to make the rest of the team so bad that Jordan couldn't win with them, Jordan would've won with everyone. Stop it with the Scottie Pippen myth. He was an above average player that Jordan made look like one of the top players of all time.

I stopped reading here. An NBA Hall of Famer, 7xAll-Star, and NBA 50th Anniversary team member is just an "above average" player? I gather you enjoyed a liquid lunch today and now have the shakes.

 

[hollandnucat]

How quick we are to say someone is the next greatest player. James is a freak of nature with his size, speed and jumping ability. I will take MJ as a basketball player all day over Lebron. People under rate his passing skills, he had the greatest hands ever, was maybe the greatest on ball defender ever, maybe the greatest mid range jump shooter ever and the best post up guard ever. Combine all this with the greatest clutch player. He also was so dominate (would say 2nd only to Chamberlain) who knows if pushed more what he could have done. Being able to guard 5 positions I think is so over rated as you can only do one at a time and I would argue Jordan was close to as a disruptive defender across the whole court as anyone ever.

 

[shakes3858]

I stopped reading here. An NBA Hall of Famer, 7xAll-Star, and NBA 50th Anniversary team member is just an "above average" player? I gather you enjoyed a liquid lunch today and now have the shakes.

Did Jordan make his teammates better? Take a look at Luc Longley. 5.8 PPG without Jordan. 9.9 with Jordan. Why is it inconceivable that Jordan made an above average player look like a hall of fame player when in reality, they were nothing special?

Jordan made Pippen a hall of fame player. Without Jordan, Pippen would be what he was, which was an above average player. The measure of a basketball player is who you want with the ball/on the ball with the game on the line. When Jordan was playing baseball/suspended for gambling, Phil Jackson gave the ball to Toni Kukoc over Scottie Pippen. As a defender, Pippen knocks Hubert Davis on his ass and loses the game for the Bulls. The most frustrating thing about that play is that the Bulls had seen it before. It was the same exact play that lead to the infamous John Starks dunk on Jordan and Grant the previous year. Pippen should've known the play, hedge correctly, knew Davis would be at the top of the arch, and closed out correctly. Pippen didn't. Why? Because the game was on the line, and Pippen couldn't perform like Jackson knew when he put the ball in Toni Kukoc's hands while Pippen sat on the bench and pouted like an 8 year old girl.

 

[Gladeskat]

LOL!

Now tell me how Pippen fooled all the folks on the Hall of Fame committee.

 

[Styre]

I like how his example of Pippen being a bad defender is one of the most controversial foul calls in the history of the NBA.

 

[shakes3858]

LOL!

Now tell me how Pippen fooled all the folks on the Hall of Fame committee.

He played with Michael Jordan who gave him 6 championship rings.

 

[Styre]

In Michael Jordan's career, he won exactly one playoff game without Scottie Pippen on the roster.

 

[shakes3858]

I like how his example of Pippen being a bad defender is one of the most controversial foul calls in the history of the NBA.

What's controversial about it? He knocked Davis on his ass. Yes the ball was out of Davis's hand and yes Pippen fouling Davis didn't effect the shot, but Pippen got him. That's not in question. What is in question is whether or not the officials swallow the whistle. I've never been a fan of swallowing the whistle. Pippen got him, call the foul. People hated the Knicks then and loved the Jordan Bulls though so it blew up on whether you make the call or let it go.

Either way Pippen closed out out of control.

 

[clarificationcat]

What's controversial about it? He knocked Davis on his ass. Yes the ball was out of Davis's hand and yes Pippen fouling Davis didn't effect the shot, but Pippen got him. That's not in question. What is in question is whether or not the officials swallow the whistle. I've never been a fan of swallowing the whistle. Pippen got him, call the foul. People hated the Knicks then and loved the Jordan Bulls though so it blew up on whether you make the call or let it go.

Either way Pippen closed out out of control.

Every year you pull this complete nonsense about Pippen out of your ass. Give it up. It's a waste of everyone's time. Please stop. Your measure of a great player is who you want taking the last shot. Folks who actually understand basketball know that there is a lot more to basketball than that. You need guys who can take the last shot but you also need guys who can rebound, play fantastic defense, run the offense and do everything else it takes to actually win the basketball game during the other 47 minutes and 30 seconds. Chuck Daley said that Pippen and Jordan were the only Dream Team players he needed on the court. Larry Bird said his favorite memory of the Dream Team was watching Jordan and Pippen play defense. Pippen's stats the season after Jordan retired for the first time and he was healthy: 22 pts (career high), 8.7 rbs (career high), 5.6 assists and 3 steals (that's more than NU's team in a lot of games) a game on .515 shooting.

As to "knocking him on his ass", here is an intelligent discussion of the play from the participants in a column in ESPN from NU alum J.A. Adande:

"It was amazing how quickly Scottie got there," Davis notes, having seen a replay of the ending a few years ago. "He's in the middle of the lane when I caught the ball."

Pippen got back a split-second too late, Davis released the ball and then Pippen made contact with Davis' arms on the follow-through. The shot bounced off the right side of the rim, and for the briefest of moments it appeared the Bulls were going to win the game. But Hollins had blown his whistle, a late whistle, just as the shot was approaching the rim.

"When I heard the whistle, it was like 'What happened? Who fouled?'" Pippen recalls. "I didn't think I had made a foul."

Technically a player is defined as being in the act of shooting from the time he goes up for the shot until after he has landed back on the ground. Except, as even Davis admits, "That's a call you normally don't get."

Today, with concern about defenders sliding under shooters and causing injuries, it gets called more often. That wasn't the case back then, and certainly not with a playoff outcome riding on it. Steve Kerr had been hit the same way several times that year, his first with the Bulls, and never was sent to the free-throw line.

"I went to the ref every time and they said, 'It doesn't matter, the shot was released," Kerr says. "Back then it was not called. And every time I asked the ref, I got the exact same explanation: Once you release the shot it doesn't matter."

 

[EvanstonCat]

After watching another display of super elite basketball by King James, I'm convinced that he is the best player who has ever played the game. I never saw much of Russell, but he is far ahead of Jabbar and Jordan. Plus, King James may also have more integrity than anyone else that has played the game as well.

Few can accomplish what he has, and who else can bring a NBA championship to a small city in the Midwest? 4 more games will wrap it up. Bottom line.

This is the dumbest thing you have ever said. Well, maybe not, but it's pretty dumb.

 

[corbi296]

After watching another display of super elite basketball by King James, I'm convinced that he is the best player who has ever played the game. I never saw much of Russell, but he is far ahead of Jabbar and Jordan. Plus, King James may also have more integrity than anyone else that has played the game as well.

Few can accomplish what he has, and who else can bring a NBA championship to a small city in the Midwest? 4 more games will wrap it up. Bottom line.

Put the crack pipe down Turk!

 

[NUCat320]

He played with Michael Jordan who gave him 6 championship rings.

Shakes, you gotta get over your long-since-lost eighth-grade arguments.

Please, for the love of Hova, stick to Genesis versus Super Nintendo.

Pippen shut down Magic. Dynasty, begin.

 

[hoosboot]

The most compelling argument to me about MJ's and LeBron's supporting casts is how their teams performed with largely the same casts after they left. Obviously, the Pippen-led Bulls made it to the Eastern Conference Finals the year after MJ left to play baseball. Cleveland and Miami both missed the playoffs entirely when Lebron left. I still think MJ is the better all-around player over the length of their careers, but that's a so-far statement because much of Lebron's career is yet to be written. This series could say a lot about how it's written.

 

[Styre]

The most compelling argument to me about MJ's and LeBron's supporting casts is how their teams performed with largely the same casts after they left. Obviously, the Pippen-led Bulls made it to the Eastern Conference Finals the year after MJ left to play baseball.

Semifinals, actually -- the Knicks loss was in the second round. But the point remains, as that was a very good Bulls team that IIRC only lost 2 wins off its total from '93.

 

[beetlemania74]

The most compelling argument to me about MJ's and LeBron's supporting casts is how their teams performed with largely the same casts after they left. Obviously, the Pippen-led Bulls made it to the Eastern Conference Finals the year after MJ left to play baseball. Cleveland and Miami both missed the playoffs entirely when Lebron left.

Not entirely fair in regards to the Miami Heat. Bosh and D. Wade both missed a significant portion of the season because of injuries. Both guys were much closer to the prime of their careers during the four seasons they played with LeBron. The Heat were decimated by injuries this past season, to both those two guys and to J. McRoberts. Sure, McRoberts wasn't going to replace LeBron, but the team would have been better with him. With a healthy team, I think they could have made the Eastern Conference semi-finals, which is as far as the Pippen-led Bulls got.

 

[shakes3858]

Shakes, you gotta get over your long-since-lost eighth-grade arguments.

Please, for the love of Hova, stick to Genesis versus Super Nintendo.

Pippen shut down Magic. Dynasty, begin.

False. That wasn't true when Pippen said it, and it's not true now. Pippen came over to guard Magic in game 2 when Jordan was in foul trouble. This lasted for about 1/2 the second and third quarters. It did rattle Magic having a bigger body on him. They made that same move in game 3 for a quarter and a half again and it worked, but not as well. For the other 17 quarters in the series, Jordan was on Magic.

 

[shakes3858]

Every year you pull this complete nonsense about Pippen out of your ass. Give it up. It's a waste of everyone's time. Please stop. Your measure of a great player is who you want taking the last shot. Folks who actually understand basketball know that there is a lot more to basketball than that. You need guys who can take the last shot but you also need guys who can rebound, play fantastic defense, run the offense and do everything else it takes to actually win the basketball game during the other 47 minutes and 30 seconds. Chuck Daley said that Pippen and Jordan were the only Dream Team players he needed on the court. Larry Bird said his favorite memory of the Dream Team was watching Jordan and Pippen play defense. Pippen's stats the season after Jordan retired for the first time and he was healthy: 22 pts (career high), 8.7 rbs (career high), 5.6 assists and 3 steals (that's more than NU's team in a lot of games) a game on .515 shooting.

As to "knocking him on his ass", here is an intelligent discussion of the play from the participants in a column in ESPN from NU alum J.A. Adande:

"It was amazing how quickly Scottie got there," Davis notes, having seen a replay of the ending a few years ago. "He's in the middle of the lane when I caught the ball."

Pippen got back a split-second too late, Davis released the ball and then Pippen made contact with Davis' arms on the follow-through. The shot bounced off the right side of the rim, and for the briefest of moments it appeared the Bulls were going to win the game. But Hollins had blown his whistle, a late whistle, just as the shot was approaching the rim.

"When I heard the whistle, it was like 'What happened? Who fouled?'" Pippen recalls. "I didn't think I had made a foul."

Technically a player is defined as being in the act of shooting from the time he goes up for the shot until after he has landed back on the ground. Except, as even Davis admits, "That's a call you normally don't get."

Today, with concern about defenders sliding under shooters and causing injuries, it gets called more often. That wasn't the case back then, and certainly not with a playoff outcome riding on it. Steve Kerr had been hit the same way several times that year, his first with the Bulls, and never was sent to the free-throw line.

"I went to the ref every time and they said, 'It doesn't matter, the shot was released," Kerr says. "Back then it was not called. And every time I asked the ref, I got the exact same explanation: Once you release the shot it doesn't matter."

Every year someone comes on this board and pulls some non-sense about Lebron being better than Jordan out their ass. Then someone else comes up with some "proof" that because Jordan had Pippen and Rodman or Grant on his team, he wasn't as good as Lebron. Jordan made Pippen a hall of famer. Pippen didn't make Jordan a champion. He was unreliable in late game situations. He crumbled with a headache against the pistons or the bulls would've had a championship a year soon. Jordan gets poisoned and drops 38. Pippen gets a headache and cowers. Give me a break. If you don't like me writing that every year and think reading it is a waste of time, then DON'T READ IT. Better yet, make sure everyone doesn't post the initial stuff like Lebron is better than Jordan or Jordan had Pippen so Lebron must be better.

Counter points to everything you said:
Chuck Daley didn't need anyone on that team. Let's get real. In the tournament of the Americas they won the opening round by 79 and the closet game was 38 points. In the Olympics, they beat Croatia by 32 and it wasn't that competitive. I've also heard someone closely involved with the dream team saying Charles Barkley was the key player. News flash, everyone on that team was pretty much better than everyone they played.

Yes, yes, the other 47:30 of a game matter... but according to Jalen Rose who's the most honest player I've heard talking, said that the measure of a player is who you want with the ball in his hands or on the ball with the game on the line.

Stats don't mean anything: winning does. Pippen was highly motivated when Jordan retired to prove himself and put up some numbers and he did. They also had a nice regular season but didn't really do anything in the playoffs. Great. The next season without Jordan, the bulls won 52% of their games before Jordan came back. After Jordan came back, they won 76% of their regular season games. See the big difference. Jordan took a .500 team ie mediocre and turned them into champions in a year. The difference between 93-94 and 94-95: Horace Grant left. Pippen was the top guy on a mediocre team, so that makes him above-average.

So Pippen says he didn't think he fouled Davis? That's supposed to matter? Pippen also said he made Michael Jordan, so clearly Pippen doesn't get a say. Did refs swallow whistles? They sure did. They shouldn't have, and that doesn't make a foul not a foul. Was Jordan's push off on Russell not a foul because no ref ever was going to call it? Yes, Jordan did it, he got away with it, but that doesn't mean he didn't do it.

Did I miss anything?