OT Lebron James is the best that has ever played

[lunker35]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/05/lebron-james-michael-jordan-playoffs-stats

Yep. For the win! Lebron's playoff track record is cute, but in a completely different class.

 

[hoosboot]

Yup...totally for the win if the outcome of a basketball game was which team had an individual player score 40 points first.

 

[Styre]

Every year someone comes on this board and pulls some non-sense about Lebron being better than Jordan out their ass. Then someone else comes up with some "proof" that because Jordan had Pippen and Rodman or Grant on his team, he wasn't as good as Lebron.

You know, some people think that Jordan was the greatest player of all time *and* that Pippen was a worthy Hall of Famer. Most people, actually.

Jordan made Pippen a hall of famer. Pippen didn't make Jordan a champion. He was unreliable in late game situations. He crumbled with a headache against the pistons or the bulls would've had a championship a year soon.

You mean the game they lost by 19 points while shooting 25% as a team with Paxson on the bench with an ankle injury? Where Horace Grant was 3-17 from the floor? Hodges was 3-13? Armstrong 1-8? Blaming that loss on Pippen is stupid -- the whole team save Jordan played like crap.

Jordan gets poisoned and drops 38.

but according to Jalen Rose who's the most honest player I've heard talking

Well also according to Jalen Rose, Jordan wasn't "poisoned" before that game...

 

[shakes3858]

You know, some people think that Jordan was the greatest player of all time *and* that Pippen was a worthy Hall of Famer. Most people, actually.

Does that make me not-entitled to my opinion that Pippen was a B to B+ player and nowhere near the top 50 all time that people make him out to be. Most people have been wrong about lots of things for lots of years.



You mean the game they lost by 19 points while shooting 25% as a team with Paxson on the bench with an ankle injury? Where Horace Grant was 3-17 from the floor? Hodges was 3-13? Armstrong 1-8? Blaming that loss on Pippen is stupid -- the whole team save Jordan played like crap.

I'm referring to the game were Pippen went 1-10 and scored 2 points. If Pippen was a great player and Jordan had a great game, then the game should've been reasonable. P



Well also according to Jalen Rose, Jordan wasn't "poisoned" before that game...

Ok... Jordan was poisoned or not poison... he had the flu or didn't have the flu. Maybe he had "flu like symptoms." He pulled out a game for the ages that will be talked about decades. That's why he's the GOAT.

 

[SmellyCat]

Count me on Team MJ, but I'll say this:

The thing I love about LeBron is he truly lived up to the hype. On the cover of SI while still in high school, he was great from Day 1 and has led his team to the finals a lot. No, I don't think he's as good as Jordan was in his prime, but he's at least in the ballpark.

As for Pippen, I think he was a good offensive player who benefited from having Jordan on the floor. Good passer, ballhandler, and rebounder. As a defender, however, he barely had a peer. Now, part of that was probably also because MJ was on the floor (Pippen could take more chances knowing he could be bailed out by Jordan and company), but he could guard *anyone* if he had to.

I think if you built a robot that had exactly MJ's talent and none of his emotion, Pippen could've guarded him well. However, one thing that made Jordan special is the emotional part of his game. If someone told him Pippen could do a good job of guarding him he would go out of his way to make that person a liar. Similar to how an interviewer told him before the 1992 finals that he was better than Drexler in all facets of the game other than three-point shooting. We all know how Game 1 turned out.

 

[Styre]

I'm referring to the game were Pippen went 1-10 and scored 2 points. If Pippen was a great player and Jordan had a great game, then the game should've been reasonable.

If your standard for being a great player is "never blown out in a playoff game," there has never been a great player in NBA history.

 

[clarificationcat]

Every year someone comes on this board and pulls some non-sense about Lebron being better than Jordan out their ass. Then someone else comes up with some "proof" that because Jordan had Pippen and Rodman or Grant on his team, he wasn't as good as Lebron. Jordan made Pippen a hall of famer. Pippen didn't make Jordan a champion. He was unreliable in late game situations. He crumbled with a headache against the pistons or the bulls would've had a championship a year soon. Jordan gets poisoned and drops 38. Pippen gets a headache and cowers. Give me a break. If you don't like me writing that every year and think reading it is a waste of time, then DON'T READ IT. Better yet, make sure everyone doesn't post the initial stuff like Lebron is better than Jordan or Jordan had Pippen so Lebron must be better.

Counter points to everything you said:
Chuck Daley didn't need anyone on that team. Let's get real. In the tournament of the Americas they won the opening round by 79 and the closet game was 38 points. In the Olympics, they beat Croatia by 32 and it wasn't that competitive. I've also heard someone closely involved with the dream team saying Charles Barkley was the key player. News flash, everyone on that team was pretty much better than everyone they played.

Yes, yes, the other 47:30 of a game matter... but according to Jalen Rose who's the most honest player I've heard talking, said that the measure of a player is who you want with the ball in his hands or on the ball with the game on the line.

Stats don't mean anything: winning does. Pippen was highly motivated when Jordan retired to prove himself and put up some numbers and he did. They also had a nice regular season but didn't really do anything in the playoffs. Great. The next season without Jordan, the bulls won 52% of their games before Jordan came back. After Jordan came back, they won 76% of their regular season games. See the big difference. Jordan took a .500 team ie mediocre and turned them into champions in a year. The difference between 93-94 and 94-95: Horace Grant left. Pippen was the top guy on a mediocre team, so that makes him above-average.

So Pippen says he didn't think he fouled Davis? That's supposed to matter? Pippen also said he made Michael Jordan, so clearly Pippen doesn't get a say. Did refs swallow whistles? They sure did. They shouldn't have, and that doesn't make a foul not a foul. Was Jordan's push off on Russell not a foul because no ref ever was going to call it? Yes, Jordan did it, he got away with it, but that doesn't mean he didn't do it.

Did I miss anything?

Yeah. You missed pretty much everything.

Arguing that Pippen was a great player doesn't diminish Jordan in any way. I am not sure why you have to rely on that in making your case. Wade in his prime was a better player than Pippen and a better teammate for Lebron. I think Pippen is a better teammate for Jordan.

Yes. Everyone on the floor was better than the competition in the Olympics. That's why Daley's opinion is meaningful. Among all those all-time great players, he wanted Pippen on the floor in situations that mattered. During the Dream Team practices, Daley called Scottie his second-best player and told David Halberstam, "You never really know how good a player he is until you coach him, but Pippen was a great surprise in Barcelona – the confidence with which he played and the absolutely complete nature of his game, both on offense and defense. No one else really expected it." According to Halberstam, MJ returned to Chicago after the Olympics and told Phil Jackson, ‘Scottie came in as just one of the other players, and none of the others knew how good he was, but then he kept playing, and by the end of the week it was clear that he was the top guard there – over Clyde and Magic and Stockton. It was great for people to see him in that setting and see how good he really was." You want a quote from Phil Jackson? "Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league". How about Ron Harper? "‘Everybody talks about MJ first, but Pip had a more all-around game. Defense, offensive rebounds, defensive boards: Pip made the game easier for us to play." How about Bill Cartwright? Scottie "was as much a part of winning the championships as MJ. I don't think it would have gotten done without him." It's clear that you know more about basketball than Daley, Jackson and his teammates, but I thought I would throw those out there for the hell of it.

The Bulls had Jordan. They didn't need two guys taking the last shot. They needed a guy that did everything else.

Yes. Adding Michael Jordan made the Bulls a lot better in 94-95. If Michael played on that team without Scottie, do you really think that even he was going to take Luc Longley, B.J. Armstrong, Ron Harper, Dickie Simpkins and Kuckoc to the NBA Finals? Adding Scottie at the end of the year would have had a huge impact as well. When Scottie missed the first 35 games in 1998, the Bulls lost a lot games.

And the telling quote on the Davis play was from Davis not Pippen. He said you don't usually get that call. Kerr said that in the NBA at that time, you never got that call. If you touched the guy after he released the shot, it was not a foul. I don't really care that you think it should be a foul. It mattered how the ref's called it, and in the mid-90's that was not a foul.

 

[shakes3858]

Yeah. You missed pretty much everything.

Arguing that Pippen was a great player doesn't diminish Jordan in any way. I am not sure why you have to rely on that in making your case. Wade in his prime was a better player than Pippen and a better teammate for Lebron. I think Pippen is a better teammate for Jordan.

Yes. Everyone on the floor was better than the competition in the Olympics. That's why Daley's opinion is meaningful. Among all those all-time great players, he wanted Pippen on the floor in situations that mattered. During the Dream Team practices, Daley called Scottie his second-best player and told David Halberstam, "You never really know how good a player he is until you coach him, but Pippen was a great surprise in Barcelona – the confidence with which he played and the absolutely complete nature of his game, both on offense and defense. No one else really expected it." According to Halberstam, MJ returned to Chicago after the Olympics and told Phil Jackson, ‘Scottie came in as just one of the other players, and none of the others knew how good he was, but then he kept playing, and by the end of the week it was clear that he was the top guard there – over Clyde and Magic and Stockton. It was great for people to see him in that setting and see how good he really was." You want a quote from Phil Jackson? "Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league". How about Ron Harper? "‘Everybody talks about MJ first, but Pip had a more all-around game. Defense, offensive rebounds, defensive boards: Pip made the game easier for us to play." How about Bill Cartwright? Scottie "was as much a part of winning the championships as MJ. I don't think it would have gotten done without him." It's clear that you know more about basketball than Daley, Jackson and his teammates, but I thought I would throw those out there for the hell of it.

The Bulls had Jordan. They didn't need two guys taking the last shot. They needed a guy that did everything else.

Yes. Adding Michael Jordan made the Bulls a lot better in 94-95. If Michael played on that team without Scottie, do you really think that even he was going to take Luc Longley, B.J. Armstrong, Ron Harper, Dickie Simpkins and Kuckoc to the NBA Finals? Adding Scottie at the end of the year would have had a huge impact as well. When Scottie missed the first 35 games in 1998, the Bulls lost a lot games.

And the telling quote on the Davis play was from Davis not Pippen. He said you don't usually get that call. Kerr said that in the NBA at that time, you never got that call. If you touched the guy after he released the shot, it was not a foul. I don't really care that you think it should be a foul. It mattered how the ref's called it, and in the mid-90's that was not a foul.

Repeat after me: THERE WERE EXACTLY ZERO SITUATIONS IN THE TOURNAMENT OF THE AMERICAS OR THE OLYMPICS THAT MATTERED WHILE THE 1992 DREAM TEAM WAS PLAYING BECAUSE THE GAME WAS IN JEOPARDY FOR EXACTLY 0 SECONDS IN BOTH TOURNAMENTS COMBINED.

So Daley saying he needed Pippen in the game in situations that mattered is ridiculous because there weren't any. At no point in any game did it ever look like the other team stood a chance. It's like me, you, Glades, Waterboy, Watergirl, Uber, ECat... playing the 1985 Bears and Mike Ditka saying that he really needed William Perry in all important situations.

Hate to break this to you, but you can't listen to any of those guys. Why? Because they all have skin in the game. Of course Jordan would talk up Pippen. Jordan wanted the best effort out of Pippen every night. Jackson had coached Pippen or were coaching Pippen. Guys like Ron Harper had friendships with Pippen. They also knew how mentally weak Pippen was and knew they had to stroke his ego so he seemed important. So quote mine people kissing Pippen's ass all you want. I'll use what I saw.

Yes, I do think that a team with Luc Longley, BJ Armstrong, Ron Harper, Dickie Simpkins, Toni Kukoc and Michael Jordan would've been a lot better than that team with Scottie Pippen. NBA finals? Who knows? Jordan made everyone around him better. Luc Longley jumped up 2.6 ppq from pre-Jordan to with Jordan and was 4.9 higher in his best season (one with Jordan). Would Jordan have turned any of those guys into all-stars like he did with Pippen if they were the #2 option? Ron Harper could definitely fill up the stat sheet, so yeah Harper would take on Pippen's scoring load and have been an all star. Toni Kukoc was weak defensively and Shaq and Ewing would dominate Luc Longley so the NBA finals would've been tough. The Bulls needed a guy like Rodman to help with the great centers of that generation.

So let me get this straight with Davis... If a guy who was fouled, thinks that he was fouled, but thinks the refs normally wouldn't call the foul even though there was one, then that guy didn't get fouled. I follow your logic, but again, I'll go with what I saw which is Pippen fouling Davis.

 

[clarificationcat]

Repeat after me: THERE WERE EXACTLY ZERO SITUATIONS IN THE TOURNAMENT OF THE AMERICAS OR THE OLYMPICS THAT MATTERED WHILE THE 1992 DREAM TEAM WAS PLAYING BECAUSE THE GAME WAS IN JEOPARDY FOR EXACTLY 0 SECONDS IN BOTH TOURNAMENTS COMBINED.

So Daley saying he needed Pippen in the game in situations that mattered is ridiculous because there weren't any. At no point in any game did it ever look like the other team stood a chance. It's like me, you, Glades, Waterboy, Watergirl, Uber, ECat... playing the 1985 Bears and Mike Ditka saying that he really needed William Perry in all important situations.

Hate to break this to you, but you can't listen to any of those guys. Why? Because they all have skin in the game. Of course Jordan would talk up Pippen. Jordan wanted the best effort out of Pippen every night. Jackson had coached Pippen or were coaching Pippen. Guys like Ron Harper had friendships with Pippen. They also knew how mentally weak Pippen was and knew they had to stroke his ego so he seemed important. So quote mine people kissing Pippen's ass all you want. I'll use what I saw.

Yes, I do think that a team with Luc Longley, BJ Armstrong, Ron Harper, Dickie Simpkins, Toni Kukoc and Michael Jordan would've been a lot better than that team with Scottie Pippen. NBA finals? Who knows? Jordan made everyone around him better. Luc Longley jumped up 2.6 ppq from pre-Jordan to with Jordan and was 4.9 higher in his best season (one with Jordan). Would Jordan have turned any of those guys into all-stars like he did with Pippen if they were the #2 option? Ron Harper could definitely fill up the stat sheet, so yeah Harper would take on Pippen's scoring load and have been an all star. Toni Kukoc was weak defensively and Shaq and Ewing would dominate Luc Longley so the NBA finals would've been tough. The Bulls needed a guy like Rodman to help with the great centers of that generation.

So let me get this straight with Davis... If a guy who was fouled, thinks that he was fouled, but thinks the refs normally wouldn't call the foul even though there was one, then that guy didn't get fouled. I follow your logic, but again, I'll go with what I saw which is Pippen fouling Davis.

Wow! You can really selectively read a post. How about Daley saying that Pippen was his second best player? Did he have an agenda?

I am done arguing. I will trust what I saw, the statistical analysis and the opinions of people that know a hell of lot more about basketball than you. You trust what you saw. By the way, how many playoff games did Jordan win without Pippen?

 

[shakes3858]

Wow! You can really selectively read a post. How about Daley saying that Pippen was his second best player? Did he have an agenda?

I am done arguing. I will trust what I saw, the statistical analysis and the opinions of people that know a hell of lot more about basketball than you. You trust what you saw. By the way, how many playoff games did Jordan win without Pippen?

Great!!!! Pippen was the second best player at beating the Angolan National Team. When he played a real NBA team like the Pistons or the Knicks he crumbled. That's a top 50 NBA player gee willy willickers.

But yeah, Pippen being on all but 1 of Jordan's playoff wins either means Pippen made Jordan or Pippen was with Jordan through his best years and rode his coattail for as long as possible. I never said the man was stupid... just over-rated.

 

[shakes3858]

I do think I need to be fair to Pippen and say without a doubt... he's a much better basketball player than Kwame Brown.

 

[clarificationcat]

Great!!!! Pippen was the second best player at beating the Angolan National Team. When he played a real NBA team like the Pistons or the Knicks he crumbled. That's a top 50 NBA player gee willy willickers.

But yeah, Pippen being on all but 1 of Jordan's playoff wins either means Pippen made Jordan or Pippen was with Jordan through his best years and rode his coattail for as long as possible. I never said the man was stupid... just over-rated.

The statement was based on watching him play in practice against some of the best players in basketball history.

In 1992, he crumbled against the Knicks by having a triple double in game seven (17, 11 and 11). He crumbled against the Knicks in 1993 by scoring 24 points with 7 assists and 6 rebounds in the final game. You may also have also forgotten his two blocks on Charles Smith at the end of the critical game 5 (or his 28 points and 11 rebounds in that game). Don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative. I know you remember all those games where X. McDaniel outplayed Pippen.

And why wasn't Jordan's third year in the NBA one of his best? He averaged a career high in points. He was at his physical peak. He had Oakley and Paxson. He made everyone around him better, right? It shouldn't have mattered who else was on the team. Weird how they finished under .500 that year.

 

[shakes3858]

The statement was based on watching him play in practice against some of the best players in basketball history.

In 1992, he crumbled against the Knicks by having a triple double in game seven (17, 11 and 11). He crumbled against the Knicks in 1993 by scoring 24 points with 7 assists and 6 rebounds in the final game. You may also have also forgotten his two blocks on Charles Smith at the end of the critical game 5 (or his 28 points and 11 rebounds in that game). Don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative. I know you remember all those games where X. McDaniel outplayed Pippen.

And why wasn't Jordan's third year in the NBA one of his best? He averaged a career high in points. He was at his physical peak. He had Oakley and Paxson. He made everyone around him better, right? It shouldn't have mattered who else was on the team. Weird how they finished under .500 that year.

I'll take your first statement last and your last statement first.

Jordan maxed out at age 26 considering he broke his foot earlier and maxed out his physical talent. False. Jordan learned to play the game better and better as time went on and that's when he learned to make his teammates better. He couldn't put 63 in a game against teams like the 1985-86 Celtics and come out with a win. I think it was the rivalry with Detroit that really taught Jordan how to use his teammates.

Do you think Pippen would've put up those numbers if Jordan wasn't there? I sure don't. Narrative is sustained by the facts.


Pippen may have dominated dream team practices... the same dream team practices that the dream team lost to a bunch of college kids. Clearly, even the greatest basketball players in the world can half-ass it while an above average player could have something to prove and try really hard.

 

[clarificationcat]

I'll take your first statement last and your last statement first.

Jordan maxed out at age 26 considering he broke his foot earlier and maxed out his physical talent. False. Jordan learned to play the game better and better as time went on and that's when he learned to make his teammates better. He couldn't put 63 in a game against teams like the 1985-86 Celtics and come out with a win. I think it was the rivalry with Detroit that really taught Jordan how to use his teammates.

Do you think Pippen would've put up those numbers if Jordan wasn't there? I sure don't. Narrative is sustained by the facts.


Pippen may have dominated dream team practices... the same dream team practices that the dream team lost to a bunch of college kids. Clearly, even the greatest basketball players in the world can half-ass it while an above average player could have something to prove and try really hard.

View embedded media

Yep. Chuck Daley was fooled, but not you! After all, those practices were legendary for everyone goofing around and half-assing it. No egos on that team. And I definitely trust the judgment of some guy who has never coached or played basketball beyond junior high over a Hall of Fame NBA coach who actually watched them play in person (as opposed to on t.v. in your bedroom at your parents' house with the Jordan poster on the wall).

Oh, and in 2013 Jordan picked Scottie to be on his all-time pickup team, along with Magic, Worthy and Hakeem. I am sure he was fooled as well or was just trying to stroke Scottie's fragile ego. He is known for being overly-considerate of people's feelings.

And it's weird that Jordan got better at "using his teammates" when he got better teammates.

 

[Sec.112]

Yeah. You missed pretty much everything.

Arguing that Pippen was a great player doesn't diminish, etc ...

I don't have a horse in this race. I just think this is one of the better, more well-thought out and researched replies in the history of this board.

 

[shakes3858]

Yep. Chuck Daley was fooled, but not you! After all, those practices were legendary for everyone goofing around and half-assing it. No egos on that team. And I definitely trust the judgment of some guy who has never coached or played basketball beyond junior high over a Hall of Fame NBA coach who actually watched them play in person (as opposed to on t.v. in your bedroom at your parents' house with the Jordan poster on the wall).

Oh, and in 2013 Jordan picked Scottie to be on his all-time pickup team, along with Magic, Worthy and Hakeem. I am sure he was fooled as well or was just trying to stroke Scottie's fragile ego. He is known for being overly-considerate of people's feelings.

And it's weird that Jordan got better at "using his teammates" when he got better teammates.

They got beat by a college all-star team and had to prep for Angola. Of course, they weren't going at it hard. Bird's back was done. Magic had HIV and wasn't play even playing in the NBA. But hey, trust Daly over me. I'm sure he didn't have any reason to compliment Pippen.

And of course Jordan took Pippen on his all-time pickup team with his buddy Magic and his North Carolina mate Worthy. Then he had to knock Ewing as the 5th by taking Hakeem over him. Is anyone really suggesting that team wouldn't beat the same team with Lebron and Duncan over Pippen and Worthy?

Is it weird for a player to max out his ability and knowledge of the game in year 3 of his career, stay at that exact level, just wait for the team to get better around him? Actually, that's really weird.

 

[shakes3858]

Thought you were done arguing anyways... guess since you still haven't made a decent argument on why Pippen made Jordan, you never started, but you said you were done.

 

[Gladeskat]

Chuck Daley consulted with shakes throughout his later coaching career. Shakes conceived the original "Bad Boys", not Chuck.

The one fault of LBJ (well, his 3-point shot has been off lately, too) is that he's too team oriented at times when he should just play hero ball. The change in team performance before and after LBJ joins a team or leaves a team is pretty incredible. A WHOPPING 42-game drop when he left Cleveland. A 20-game improvement when added to Cleveland this year. An 11-game improvement when he joined the Heat. A 17-game drop for Miami after he left Miami this year.

When Jordan first retired, the Bulls record dropped only 2 games. When MJ came back, they improved 25 games and went 72-10. When he retired the second time, they blew up the team and dropped 0.494 percentage points (49.4%).

 

[clarificationcat]

Thought you were done arguing anyways... guess since you still haven't made a decent argument on why Pippen made Jordan, you never started, but you said you were done.

This is my last response. I promise. I know everyone is sick of it. It's futile because you are asking for me to defend arguments I didn't even make and it's clear nothing I or anyone else says will ever change your mind.

At no point did I ever say that Scottie made Jordan. He certainly didn't. Jordan would have won championships with other great players. I highly doubt it would have been six, though. And Scottie would not be remembered as a top 50 player if he hadn't been on great teams. But just as Pippen is not the only great player that could have teamed up with Jordan, the Bulls were not the only team that would have excelled with Pippen. Stick him on the Knicks or Utah in his prime and maybe they win a couple of championships.

The argument I have made all along is that Scottie is not overrated. He was one of the all-time great NBA players and a perfect complement for Jordan. His coaches, teammates and opposing coaches recognized it. The advanced statistics more than support it. He was clutch in plenty of big moments. He made the final two baskets when the Bulls beat the Pacers in Game 7 of the Conference Finals 88-83 when he and Jordan couldn't hit anything. He had a 32-13-7 game with 5 steals when the Bulls clinched against the Lakers. I talked about each of the Knicks series. He was on the floor with the second team when the Bulls came back from 15 points down against Portland in Game 6. And none of that even speaks to his defense. In Game 1 against the Pacers in 1998, Pippen scored 4 points but hounded Mark Jackson into 7 turnovers when the Bulls won 85-79. Steve Kerr said "The guy shot 1 for 9 and scored 4 points and totally dominated the game. That's what makes him one of the greatest players ever. He doesn't have to score a point and he can control the whole game." Enough said.

 

[Gladeskat]

Clarificationcat wins hands down. Shakes buys the beer!

Good argument guys.

 

[shakes3858]

Clarificationcat wins hands down. Shakes buys the beer!

Good argument guys.

Yawn... He took the popular opinion quoted some people. Of course more people agree with him, that's why it's the popular opinion. Doesn't make it right.

 

[shakes3858]

At no point did I ever say that Scottie made Jordan. He certainly didn't.

You said "By the way, how many playoff games did Jordan win without Pippen?" So you did implicate that Pippen made Jordan a playoff winner.


And I thought we were done quote mining Pippen's friends.

 

[lunker35]

Lebron is 1-5 in game one games of the NBA Finals and 11-17 overall in the finals. Good job, good effort.

 

[beetlemania74]

Lebron is 1-5 in game one games of the NBA Finals and 11-17 overall in the finals. Good job, good effort.

I assume you're not being sarcastic with the "good job, good effort" quote. I've been hard on LeBron, but I'll come to his defense now. Dude played his heart out, scored 44 points, with a pretty mediocre team. And that was before Irving's knee went out again, so the team's likely going to be even worse the rest of the series. The Cavs could have won that game, and LeBron did miss a game-winning shot at the end of regulation. But when he gets double and triple teamed, there are limits on what their offense can do. Especially with Irving out, there's really no one else to get the ball to. The Warriors play excellent defense, and in these playoffs, they've already shut down better teams like the Rockets and Grizzlies. The Cavs needed that game to have a chance to win the series. It's over now. Warriors in 5.

 

[Styre]

I assume you're not being sarcastic with the "good job, good effort" quote. I've been hard on LeBron, but I'll come to his defense now. Dude played his heart out, scored 44 points, with a pretty mediocre team. And that was before Irving's knee went out again, so the team's likely going to be even worse the rest of the series. The Cavs could have won that game, and LeBron did miss a game-winning shot at the end of regulation. But when he gets double and triple teamed, there are limits on what their offense can do. Especially with Irving out, there's really no one else to get the ball to.

Yep. LeBron may not be the greatest player of all time, but he's one of the greatest players of all time, and he showed it again last night. With Love and Irving, I think the Cavs might win this series. Without them? Forget it. But people are going to turn this inevitable loss into yet another referendum on LeBron for some stupid reason. Instead of watching an all-time great and enjoying the privilege, they're kicking dirt on him because he's not quite as great as Michael Jordan.

 

[beetlemania74]

But people are going to turn this inevitable loss into yet another referendum on LeBron for some stupid reason. Instead of watching an all-time great and enjoying the privilege, they're kicking dirt on him because he's not quite as great as Michael Jordan.

The question must be asked....would MJ have missed that shot at the end of regulation? He lived for those moments, as Craig Ehlo and Bryon Russell would attest. The ball was in LeBron's hands to win the game, and he missed. If he hits it, they win, and Irving doesn't re-injure his knee in OT. But he missed, and now the Cavs are in a huge hole that I don't think they'll get out of.

In LeBron's defense, of course, he's already won games in these playoff by hitting last-second shots (remember, Chicago?), and Iguodala played very strong D on the play. But the greatest players make shots to win games in those situations, or at least that's how conventional wisdom puts it...

 

[SmellyCat]

Didn't MJ miss the game winner in Game 1 of the 1991 finals against Magic?

True, they won the next four games, and of course six titles in the next eight years, but he had a shot to win Game 1 in his first game. He may have lived for those moments, but he delivered in the same way as LeBron, at least that one game.

I think LeBron is the best player since Jordan, but MJ is still the all-time greatest.

 

[hdhntr1]

The question must be asked....would MJ have missed that shot at the end of regulation? He lived for those moments, as Craig Ehlo and Bryon Russell would attest. The ball was in LeBron's hands to win the game, and he missed. If he hits it, they win, and Irving doesn't re-injure his knee in OT. But he missed, and now the Cavs are in a huge hole that I don't think they'll get out of.

In LeBron's defense, of course, he's already won games in these playoff by hitting last-second shots (remember, Chicago?), and Iguodala played very strong D on the play. But the greatest players make shots to win games in those situations, or at least that's how conventional wisdom puts it...

While MJ made quite a few of those shots, he also missed a number of them. That said he relished the opportunity to be in that situation and was not intimidated by it. While LBJ has some of the same attributes, he has been less willing to assume the mantle. Talent wise, he is right up there and he seems to be taking more of the load on his shoulders. Leave it to say that he is one of the best to ever play and that is a small list.

 

[Gladeskat]

While MJ made quite a few of those shots, he also missed a number of them. That said he relished the opportunity to be in that situation and was not intimidated by it. While LBJ has some of the same attributes, he has been less willing to assume the mantle. Talent wise, he is right up there and he seems to be taking more of the load on his shoulders. Leave it to say that he is one of the best to ever play and that is a small list.

Less willing to assume the mantle? He put up something like 35 shots and dished out 10+ assists to try to drag this team to a championship! HE IS THEIR POINT GUARD, LEADING SCORER, REBOUNDER, AND ASSIST MAN!!! At some point, the other 4 players on the floor have to do something or, in your book, Lebron will continue be "less willing to assume the "mantle". AGAIN, HE IS THEIR POINT GUARD, LEADING SCORER, REBOUNDER, AND ASSIST MAN! Was Jordan less willing to assume the mantle the first six or so years he was in the league? He tried doing what Lebron is doing now and failed in 4 games against the Celtics. What changed in 1991? Grant and Pippen. How well would MJ have done without Grant and Pippen? The Cavs have just lost the only other serious offensive threats they had in losing Love and now Irving, yet they are a missed jumper from having a 2-0 lead over the 65-17 Warriors after two games in San Francisco!

I'm not making any claim here as to who is the GOAT. IMO, that is to be determined over time. But to diss LBJ for what he is trying to do now with little supporting help is absurd. Again, Jordan tried doing what LBJ is doing now and failed miserably against the Celtics.

 

[Gladeskat]

Kenny Smith: "I don't think I have ever seen a guy DO MORE WITH LESS than Lebron James has done in the playoffs this year."

 

[NJCat83588]

Less willing to assume the mantle? He put up something like 35 shots and dished out 10+ assists to try to drag this team to a championship! HE IS THEIR POINT GUARD, LEADING SCORER, REBOUNDER, AND ASSIST MAN!!! At some point, the other 4 players on the floor have to do something or, in your book, Lebron will continue be "less willing to assume the "mantle". AGAIN, HE IS THEIR POINT GUARD, LEADING SCORER, REBOUNDER, AND ASSIST MAN! Was Jordan less willing to assume the mantle the first six or so years he was in the league? He tried doing what Lebron is doing now and failed in 4 games against the Celtics. What changed in 1991? Grant and Pippen. How well would MJ have done without Grant and Pippen? The Cavs have just lost the only other serious offensive threats they had in losing Love and now Irving, yet they are a missed jumper from having a 2-0 lead over the 65-17 Warriors after two games in San Francisco!

I'm not making any claim here as to who is the GOAT. IMO, that is to be determined over time. But to diss LBJ for what he is trying to do now with little supporting help is absurd. Again, Jordan tried doing what LBJ is doing now and failed miserably against the Celtics.

Amen.

While I don't think LBJ is the GOAT, he without a doubt is putting on one of the greatest Playoff runs of all time. What he is doing with this collections of mis-fit toys is simply amazing.

 

[beetlemania74]

Amen.

While I don't think LBJ is the GOAT, he without a doubt is putting on one of the greatest Playoff runs of all time. What he is doing with this collections of mis-fit toys is simply amazing.

I certainly agree that this run is amazing (and will more amazing still, if they can actually win it all), but I'll point out that LeBron once again missed a shot to win the game in regulation. I know that's not exactly a fair criticism (and he was definitely fouled on the drive), but if they had also lost that one in OT, it would have been a big point of discussion regarding his "inability to close out games". But they won, and you could see the huge relief on his face after doing so. I thought he was about to start crying in the post-game interview.

I'm not a LeBron hater, and I'm now rooting for them to win. It would be a great story. The guy's playing with all his heart and soul, and he's bringing out the best in his teammates. But I still don't think they're going to win. You can't count on S. Curry missing 13 3-pointers every game, and when he starts making his shots again, the Warriors are going to be too much for the Cavs.

 

[NJCat83588]

But I still don't think they're going to win. You can't count on S. Curry missing 13 3-pointers every game, and when he starts making his shots again, the Warriors are going to be too much for the Cavs.

I agree. Oakland is just too deep and everything has to break exactly right just for the Cavs to win in OT. I see Warriors in 6.

 

[shakes3858]

Amen.

While I don't think LBJ is the GOAT, he without a doubt is putting on one of the greatest Playoff runs of all time. What he is doing with this collections of mis-fit toys is simply amazing.

Jordan 6 titles in 6 years of playing full time.
Celtics run from 58-69 10 titles missed finals once 11 titles.
Lakers from 80-91 5 titles missed finals 3 times.
Lakers 2000-2010 5 titles missed finals 4 times.
Lebron's run 2 titles (maybe 3) 5 finals in 5 years.

I put the Celtics lower than the bulls because there were less teams. Lebron's run is a distant 5th in my opinion because he did it in the ever so bad Eastern Conference and is .500 in the finals.

 

[catsattackfor3]

He also took I hiatus in the prime of his career that would have likely resulted in two more titles. Lebron is a great player, but Jordan is in another class with his overall game. We rarely hear it, but he was probably the best defender of all time. He also carried himself so much better than LBJ who is constantly whining acting out like a 5 year old who missed a meal when calls don't go his way. Can you imagine if LBJ had to play the Pistons or the Kincks of Jordan's era?

Really?? Look MJ is the best clutch player i have ever seen but he was an unstoppable force before he won all those championships...his greatness as a champion was because of great teams but his individual play was great before the title runs. And to say he never whined or cried is living in fantasy land. He complained more than anyone and who can ever forget Phil Jackson's press conferences after losses and before follow up game where he constantly complained about MJ not getting fouled, it was annoying. This comparison between lebron and MJ is so old. Lebron is the best player of his generation, MJ his. Lebron's game has always compared to Magic's as well. And lets be honest Pippen, Grant, Jordan then Pippen, Rodman, Jordan are formidable than Lebron's big three and the Bulls never were greatly challenged in a Finals series either. That Houston team for those two years during MJ's hiatus could of have made a classic Finals and tha tOrlando team of Shaq, Penny Hardaway, Horace Grant, and Nick Anderson had the makings of dethroning MJ easily had they stayed ehalthy and stayed together.

 

[Styre]

tha tOrlando team of Shaq, Penny Hardaway, Horace Grant, and Nick Anderson had the makings of dethroning MJ easily had they stayed ehalthy and stayed together.

Given how their 1996 playoff matchup went, I'm not sure how "easily" that team would have dethroned Jordan if it had stayed together.

 

[hdhntr1]

Less willing to assume the mantle? He put up something like 35 shots and dished out 10+ assists to try to drag this team to a championship! HE IS THEIR POINT GUARD, LEADING SCORER, REBOUNDER, AND ASSIST MAN!!! At some point, the other 4 players on the floor have to do something or, in your book, Lebron will continue be "less willing to assume the "mantle". AGAIN, HE IS THEIR POINT GUARD, LEADING SCORER, REBOUNDER, AND ASSIST MAN! Was Jordan less willing to assume the mantle the first six or so years he was in the league? He tried doing what Lebron is doing now and failed in 4 games against the Celtics. What changed in 1991? Grant and Pippen. How well would MJ have done without Grant and Pippen? The Cavs have just lost the only other serious offensive threats they had in losing Love and now Irving, yet they are a missed jumper from having a 2-0 lead over the 65-17 Warriors after two games in San Francisco!

I'm not making any claim here as to who is the GOAT. IMO, that is to be determined over time. But to diss LBJ for what he is trying to do now with little supporting help is absurd. Again, Jordan tried doing what LBJ is doing now and failed miserably against the Celtics.

I am not trying to diss him. Just in the past, he was more wanting and willing to dish it off than MJ was in similar situations. That he now has less around him, he has started to take those shots. He did plenty of things to put his team in position to win but now he has to do more.

 

[hdhntr1]

I certainly agree that this run is amazing (and will more amazing still, if they can actually win it all), but I'll point out that LeBron once again missed a shot to win the game in regulation. I know that's not exactly a fair criticism (and he was definitely fouled on the drive), but if they had also lost that one in OT, it would have been a big point of discussion regarding his "inability to close out games". But they won, and you could see the huge relief on his face after doing so. I thought he was about to start crying in the post-game interview.

I'm not a LeBron hater, and I'm now rooting for them to win. It would be a great story. The guy's playing with all his heart and soul, and he's bringing out the best in his teammates. But I still don't think they're going to win. You can't count on S. Curry missing 13 3-pointers every game, and when he starts making his shots again, the Warriors are going to be too much for the Cavs.

MJ missed plenty of final shots. He is know for the ones he hit but he missed his share as well. So this criticism of LBJ is unwarranted. That said, on that shot, he was camped out in the lane for like 5-7 seconds before he tried to take that shot. Yes he was fouled but should have been called for 3 seconds long before the shot and not sure 24 second clock had not run out as well.

 

[Gladeskat]

I am not trying to diss him. Just in the past, he was more wanting and willing to dish it off than MJ was in similar situations. That he now has less around him, he has started to take those shots. He did plenty of things to put his team in position to win but now he has to do more.

He has always looked for the best shot and is known for making excellent decisions on such drives, whether that is taking the shot himself or dishing off. Many fans feel he should take more of these last second shots. I felt that way when they lost in the 2011 Finals to the Mavericks. Now he has to beat double and triple teams in these situations, something Jordan never faced when he hit his iconic shots. Teams know what's coming in last second situations now with Irving and Love out. The heat is on LBJ all the time now.

Lebron has laid some eggs, like the two 3-pointers off the backboard in the final seconds of game six of the 2013 NBA Finals (the game Ray Allen sent into overtime with his 3-pointer from the corner), but he has also won some in spectacular fashion like his last second shot against the Bulls and his quick drive with 2 seconds left from the top of the key in the 2013 playoffs. He got the Cavs into position to win with big 3-point shots and free throws in the final minute. He lacks the iconic shot like MJ's step back jumper to clinch his 6th title, but he makes so many amazing plays and big shots and rebounds in games that seem to go entirely unrecognized. He will go as far as his teammates will let him in this series. LBJ is putting up big triple doubles every night to hold the fort, but if the other Cavs miss their shots, the Cavs will fall. Thompson rebounded like a madman and the Cavs made their shots in game 2.

 

[hoosboot]

Agree with a lot of what you say, Glades, but the Cavs didn't really make their shots in Game 2. They shot sub 33% from the field, so there wasn't much shot-making happening. Instead, they won the game with incredible defense, strong rebounding, and a deliberate offense that limited the number of possessions. With those limited possessions, LBJ's number of shots nullified the impact of Irving and Love not being there to diversify the offense (and the impact of JR Smith being a bonehead.)

I don't know if it's Blatt or Lebron calling the coaching shots, but they are good shots giving the Cavs a chance when they really shouldn't have one.