Been thinking this for the last week or so .....
- Thread starter Max_Power
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The productivity has only been over the last month Prior to that he seemed lost out there , But over that last month he showed plenty of O moves and skills. Had significantly more O than Nicholson But he was way behind on D, (though he did show improvement there as well)
Originally he got the guys from Europe but he did not seem to go back to that well
He had some athletes but not enough to really compete. He didn't seem to care for recruiting and as a result he was not that good at it. Collins improved the recruiting getting guys like Law before when we had the old facilities. Been a little up and down but overall up since. But still have to get a group to be upper class men at the same time to be really (NCA) successful
Collins started bringing in higher level of talent with those same old crappy facilities
The NIT appearances gave us stability but BC had reached his peak. He got us as far as he could. Would have not been able to get CCC had it not been for what Carmody did
I was talking about Carmody. And yet again, you make a stink and refuse to answer direct questions.
Can you EVER answer a direct question?
Try it, just once.
You made claims about "metrics" that all prove Collins is a better coach than Carmody.
A better COACH. As in "getting his players to play to their potential" "Getting the most out of his roster" and "Making decisions during a game to help his team."
Not recruiting.
You haven't provided anything to support your claims.
I provided multiple metrics to back up my point, and it's also worth noting that Collins is ahead of Carmody in both win percentage and conference win percentage at NU a metric you wanted. Did you even read my initial response? I provided many metrics in that response.
Directly, I think Carmody is a solid coach, but he had some major flaws. He struggled with recruiting, which is a critical part of a coach's job. I also think he didn’t emphasize defense or rebounding enough to consistently compete in the Big Ten.
Collins, on the other hand, earned those better facilities after making a tournament appearance. I think he’s a better recruiter. I think his philosophy as a coach is more sustainable and leads to better teams as well.
Coaching at the D1 level involves recruiting. It’s an essential part of being a coach. Great coaches recruit great players. Collins made a lot of decisions that led him to 3 tournament appearances and helped build NU into the program it is today. A coach's role is more than just X’s and O’s or analytics. It involves teaching, mentoring, managing, recruiting, and more. Emotional intelligence, game intelligence, and roster/staff management all play a significant role in a coach’s success and are part of coaching. They all matter when evaluating a coach. At the end of the day, what matters most when evaluating a coach is winning and the heights their teams reach.
Collins is the best coach NU has had. Do you disagree?
Can you EVER answer a direct question?
Try it, just once.
Trying to talk about Northwestern basketball with some people on this message board.
I don’t think there is. I think there’s just random appreciation for CBC, who did not recruit Keenan Fitzmorris.
He did not take a shot in December or January. Keeping Keenan on the bench — unless there was an injury that was unreported — is CCC’s largest mistake this year.
Hunger has frequently hurt NU by looking for his shot and being slow on defense. Keenan basically has the exact same game as Nicholson, and just fits in more seamlessly.
IMO the median opinion on Carmody, as far as I can tell, is the correct one: Carmody is a knowledgeable and skilled coach, but didn't have the juice to succeed in the Big Ten conference (or probably any P5 conference). He is clearly a skilled teacher of his offensive system and creates an efficient attack with players who improve and grasp the system everywhere he goes. He was also, however, a very low energy and disinterested recruiter incapable of bringing in the athletes needed to be athletically competitive in a major conference. Imagining him trying to survive in the Big Ten in an NIL and direct paid players era is... not a pretty picture.
In addition to being a coach, he was a genuinely nice man (can say from personal experience) who everybody only ever says very positive things about the character of (secondhand info only). He's a wonderful coach for low and mid major schools where he can go and find system recruits, teach em to play his style, and score efficiently. He's a real basketball brain guy. If basketball was football, I'd hire him to be OC anywhere in the country.
So yeah, Carmody did some very impressive things for NU basketball, but we're in the golden era now with CCC.
I think Collins was hoping Hunger would develop, looking to next year, but I agree once the Big Ten season hit in January, Fitzmorris should have gotten those minutes which could have made a difference in one or two close games.
I fully agree with this. Carmody raised the floor of NU and got them to a place where they could attract serious big ten coaching candidates. We as a fanbase should be very appreciative of that. He accomplished more than a lot of his predecessors. His offensive helped mitigate some of the talent gap. He got to the tournament with Holy Cross post NU. He did receive too much hate imo from this board. I think with distance and hindsight the appreciation will only increase. I don’t think Collins comes to NU without Carmody raising the floor.
You know I always try to be fair with you, but you're the one moving the goalposts here. Kid is trying to answer and you keep changing the questions. It's perfectly fair for him to go with counting stats, rather than rate stats when you ask for metrics. And then when you said you are only concerned with rate stats, he also responded directly:
Seems like Keenan could have averaged 5-6 ppg in 10-15 minutes of play. While also playing some inspired ball. Sorry but those theatrics versus ucla were fantastic. I’ve never seen an nu player do anything like it.
Not moving the goalposts at all - just trying to define the argument. And thats damned near impossible.
I don't think I agree with this. Keenan does not have the mass to bang inside. He's a potential blocking and rebounding presence, but has been consistently pushed out of position on both ends. I don't think he's like either Matt or Luke, who are both slower, stocky bangers - Luke just being too short for his complete lack of vertical ability. Keenan seems more to thrive about five feet out as he has a decent short shot and the agility to move around guys to score. If we'd gotten him as a freshman, wow.
He's such a happy puppy, my wife thought he was a sophomore...
Keenan's shooting game is better than Matt's but Matt' has improved tremendously with his defense and passing.
This is Keenan's 7th year in college.
Of course. My point is that Keenan plays a very different game than Matt, imho.
I provided metrics, answered direct questions and got no direct answers in response.
You're very impatient.
I nearly always respond.
At least 90% of the time.
And I will when I can.
So don't fret.
You’ve done yeoman’s work, @ThatkidfromHolland!
Collins is of course the GOAT, but also not perfect, again of course. If there were a source that could evaluate how imperfect he is relative to other coaches, I would find value in that and find more value in the critiques levied here against him. Until then, there’s no doubt he’s royalty to NU and us, and I’ll continue to treat him with the respect that he richly deserves
I don’t think Ryan has coached NU. Certainly not our greatest.
Now, Dutch Lonborg may, in fact, have something to say about this conversation!
😃
Okay, I'm back - but, of course, Gordie had to chime in. Not sure what took so long!
Let just correct one mistake in a previous post...
ThatKid wrote, when mentioning NU's facilities
The Renovation of McGaw Hall / Welsh-Ryan was part of NU's 2010 athletic facilities master plan.
The specific re-design wasn't announced until June of 2016.
At that point Chris Collins had a Big Ten record of 20-34 and no postseason appearances, using a roster that included some of Carmody's players and his own recruits.
My understanding is that Chris Collins required NU's commitment to the facility upgrade before he accepted the head coach job.
news.northwestern.edu
Let just correct one mistake in a previous post...
ThatKid wrote, when mentioning NU's facilities
The Renovation of McGaw Hall / Welsh-Ryan was part of NU's 2010 athletic facilities master plan.
The specific re-design wasn't announced until June of 2016.
At that point Chris Collins had a Big Ten record of 20-34 and no postseason appearances, using a roster that included some of Carmody's players and his own recruits.
My understanding is that Chris Collins required NU's commitment to the facility upgrade before he accepted the head coach job.
Complete renovation announced for Welsh-Ryan arena
Leadership gift from Patrick and Shirley Ryan to support project
news.northwestern.edu
In college BB, recruiting is a HUGE part of being a good coach.
Hard to say the FitzMorris has the exact same game as Matt. Matt's O is basically the dunk and not a whole lot more. FitzMorris has a number of different aspects to his O game. On D Matt was much better
Regarding the Collins vs Carmody thing that some folks are just not willing to stop bringing up.
I have defined "coaching" as the aspect of running a team that applies only to teaching and using a roster of players. Development, strategy and game management. This definition separates the acquisition of players (recruiting) from what I am calling coaching.
This definition separates specific aspects of running a D1 basketball program. It also reflects the coaching scenario that many of us are familiar with - you volunteer to coach kids in a sport and the league assigns you a roster of players. Everything after that is coaching.
There is no doubt that Collins has been able to recruit better players (in general) compared to Carmody. Carmody got Shurna, Olah, Demps, Crawford, Juice Thompson, etc but there just wasn't enough overall quality. Better players usually mean your team has a better record. And Carmody didn't have the opportunity to fix roster problems via the transfer portal - something that became a real advantage for Chris Collins in recent years. Obviously the facilities upgrade works in favor of Collins.
Assistant coaches also matter. It seems safe to say that Chris Lowery is a more highly regarded assistant than anybody Carmody had. However, Carmody did have Tavaras Hardy, who was effective with the NU big men. Collins didn't have that.
Collins has been head coach for 12 seasons. His Big Ten record is 87 - 141. He has 3 NCAA appearances.
Carmody was head coach for 13 seasons. His Big Ten record was 70 - 150. He had 4 NIT appearances.
Obviously nobody would consider those records to be "good,"
How much of that disparity is attributable to recruiting? I'd say "a lot."
To me, it is therefore unclear who was the better coach. My opinion is that if you took identical rosters and gave them to each coach and let them prepare for two months, with identical assistants, then played a series of games between a Carmody-coached team and an identical Collins-coached team, Carmody would win more games.
I have defined "coaching" as the aspect of running a team that applies only to teaching and using a roster of players. Development, strategy and game management. This definition separates the acquisition of players (recruiting) from what I am calling coaching.
This definition separates specific aspects of running a D1 basketball program. It also reflects the coaching scenario that many of us are familiar with - you volunteer to coach kids in a sport and the league assigns you a roster of players. Everything after that is coaching.
There is no doubt that Collins has been able to recruit better players (in general) compared to Carmody. Carmody got Shurna, Olah, Demps, Crawford, Juice Thompson, etc but there just wasn't enough overall quality. Better players usually mean your team has a better record. And Carmody didn't have the opportunity to fix roster problems via the transfer portal - something that became a real advantage for Chris Collins in recent years. Obviously the facilities upgrade works in favor of Collins.
Assistant coaches also matter. It seems safe to say that Chris Lowery is a more highly regarded assistant than anybody Carmody had. However, Carmody did have Tavaras Hardy, who was effective with the NU big men. Collins didn't have that.
Collins has been head coach for 12 seasons. His Big Ten record is 87 - 141. He has 3 NCAA appearances.
Carmody was head coach for 13 seasons. His Big Ten record was 70 - 150. He had 4 NIT appearances.
Obviously nobody would consider those records to be "good,"
How much of that disparity is attributable to recruiting? I'd say "a lot."
To me, it is therefore unclear who was the better coach. My opinion is that if you took identical rosters and gave them to each coach and let them prepare for two months, with identical assistants, then played a series of games between a Carmody-coached team and an identical Collins-coached team, Carmody would win more games.
One last thing.
Calling Collins the "GOAT" carries certain requirements. Greatest of all Time obviously requires Collins to be great. It also requires at least 2 other prior coaches to be great. When people call Tom Brady the GOAT, there are a lot of other undisputably great quarterbacks to compare him to. Northwestern does not have a legacy of great coaches. I don't think Collins is a great coach. So I cannot agree that he is the GOAT.
Dutch Lonborg coached Northwestern for 23 seasons. He compiled a 138-141 record against the Big Ten.
He stands out as the most successful Northwestern basketball coach ever.
But for those who obsess about it, I think it is fair to say that Chris Collins has been more successful as a head coach at Northwestern than Bill Carmody - because he was able to identify and attract better players.
Calling Collins the "GOAT" carries certain requirements. Greatest of all Time obviously requires Collins to be great. It also requires at least 2 other prior coaches to be great. When people call Tom Brady the GOAT, there are a lot of other undisputably great quarterbacks to compare him to. Northwestern does not have a legacy of great coaches. I don't think Collins is a great coach. So I cannot agree that he is the GOAT.
Dutch Lonborg coached Northwestern for 23 seasons. He compiled a 138-141 record against the Big Ten.
He stands out as the most successful Northwestern basketball coach ever.
But for those who obsess about it, I think it is fair to say that Chris Collins has been more successful as a head coach at Northwestern than Bill Carmody - because he was able to identify and attract better players.
Dude. I loved Carmody too. But Collins is a better recruiter and makes his guys believe they are winners. That is also coaching in the college game! In fact it is more important than Xs and Os!
Your lab experiment of coaching the same players with different coaches is theoretical. Not real.
Enjoy what we have now. By the way GOAT by NU standards is a low bar.
I expect Collins to take us further OR someone else to do so in my lifetime. I graduated in 89.
Some people just can’t take the L.
We get made up definitions of what Coaching is and somehow twist it to exclude securing players. Comical.
Then we ignore the Kid’s points on victories, tournaments . Beating the #1 team in the country and sustaining a level of success that hasn’t been seen in the modern era. That’s all fine and dandy, but somehow in the very next post a 180 is done and Dutch Lonborg’s Big Ten record is cited as in making a case for a more successful Coach. So which is it, records/wins matter or they don’t?
BTW, do you know if Dutch had better players that the opposition? How was his development, game management, and strategy. Did he have a Wizard or Taveras on staff? The fact is, he was around in the 1920’s and none of us have any idea. Dutch was a FOOTBALL coach before he became a basketball coach ( I can google too). Sounds like what you see in High Schools today with glorified PE teachers hopping from sport to sport.
When you call out this nonsense you get attacked as part of a “cult”. Taken straight out of the playbook of our own Linderman on these boards who I am sure will show up later. It’s obvious that we have one poster with relentless bias against our Head Coach. It’s brought up in nearly every thread and then this happens. The passive aggressive references to previous threads rear their ugly head and this happens.
Cap this non-sense!
We get made up definitions of what Coaching is and somehow twist it to exclude securing players. Comical.
Then we ignore the Kid’s points on victories, tournaments . Beating the #1 team in the country and sustaining a level of success that hasn’t been seen in the modern era. That’s all fine and dandy, but somehow in the very next post a 180 is done and Dutch Lonborg’s Big Ten record is cited as in making a case for a more successful Coach. So which is it, records/wins matter or they don’t?
BTW, do you know if Dutch had better players that the opposition? How was his development, game management, and strategy. Did he have a Wizard or Taveras on staff? The fact is, he was around in the 1920’s and none of us have any idea. Dutch was a FOOTBALL coach before he became a basketball coach ( I can google too). Sounds like what you see in High Schools today with glorified PE teachers hopping from sport to sport.
When you call out this nonsense you get attacked as part of a “cult”. Taken straight out of the playbook of our own Linderman on these boards who I am sure will show up later. It’s obvious that we have one poster with relentless bias against our Head Coach. It’s brought up in nearly every thread and then this happens. The passive aggressive references to previous threads rear their ugly head and this happens.
Cap this non-sense!
Yes. I think we can all agree that if you disregard all the things that Collins is good at, then Carmody is just as good a coach.
I can’t believe this is a debate… it’s Collins without a question. It’s not even really about talent - his teams are usually well prepared and play hard and give themselves a chance.
I saw a thread somewhere on here that said “The talent is there….” And what struck me is that I actually think Collin’s team this year isn’t very talented. They’re definitely bottom 2 or 3 in conference in terms of talent. But they’re so well coached that they overachieve significantly. I think Collins is a really solid coach, and I think Carmody’s body of work over the course of his career would tell you he’s nowhere close to Collins.
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