Been thinking this for the last week or so .....

[hdhntr1]

We both know that recruiting and coaching ARE separate things.
Recruiting is about building your roster - period.
It includes talent evaluation and salesmanship, among other things.
Coaching is everything that pertains to winning games once you have your roster.

I think you're trying to say that a college head coach has to do both (recruiting and coaching) - and thats certainly true.
But it is easy enough to evaluate them separately.

Again, you do not seem to understand the job of the Head Basketball Coach for an NCAA D1 program. It is not really even close to what you are suggesting. The job is that of a CEO for the program, It is coordination and management, The actual fundamentals training, Xs and Os are left to the assistant coaches. The job is to oversee the overall direction of the program, hire the right assistants direct those assistants to do their jobs and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction, Your interpretation of HCs job does not even sound close to the actual job. Another way of saying this is that any similarity between what you are pushing as the HC job and what it is is purely coincidental

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Again, you do not seem to understand the job of the Head Basketball Coach for an NCAA D1 program. It is not really even close to what you are suggesting. The job is that of a CEO for the program, It is coordination and management, The actual fundamentals training, Xs and Os are left to the assistant coaches. The job is to oversee the overall direction of the program, hire the right assistants direct those assistants to do their jobs and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction, Your interpretation of HCs job does not even sound close to the actual job. Another way of saying this is that any similarity between what you are pushing as the HC job and what it is is purely coincidental

Sorry for getting sucked in again, but this post regarding assistants vs HC intrigued me. Expanding on this, in my experience and in conversations with other former athletes who played at much higher levels than myself, assistant coaches definitely carry the load of the day-to-day fundamental training. Head coaches will step in occasionally to do actual fundamental training, but they primarily bounce around practice with a general overview and step in when they need to make specific points. Assistant coaches are typically the ones running drills, giving pointers, and might even bring their own drills to the program. They also often take on the "good guy" role, building strong relationships with the players. Younger assistant coaches are sometimes used as practice bodies as well.

Head coaches typically set the overall tactics and scheme, while the assistants work within that framework. The head coach sets the overarching practice plan, and the assistant coaches execute it, handling the details. During games, the head coach manages rotations and makes critical in-game decisions, with varying input from assistants.

Given how impactful assistants are to day-to-day development, it's crucial to evaluate and hire strong assistants. Collins runs a solid program, and players and staff execute within that structure. Running that program is what coaching at the D1 level looks like, and it's impossible to separate development from recruiting. No two programs are developing the same sets of players. The staff a head coach surrounds themselves with impacts nearly every aspect of their job, from scouting and recruiting to development and in-game management. This is where Collins deserves credit for staff selection and the program as a whole, especially since he made the tournament with different staff and players, something no other program at NU has ever done.

It’s impossible to accurately evaluate and separate what PWB is asking for. He’s asking for that separation because it’s a position that can never be proven wrong either way and is purely subjective. It’s too obvious that Collins is the best coach when you consider what truly matters and the actual role of a D1 coach.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

Sorry for getting sucked in again, but this post regarding assistants vs HC intrigued me. Expanding on this, in my experience and in conversations with other former athletes who played at much higher levels than myself, assistant coaches definitely carry the load of the day-to-day fundamental training. Head coaches will step in occasionally to do actual fundamental training, but they primarily bounce around practice with a general overview and step in when they need to make specific points. Assistant coaches are typically the ones running drills, giving pointers, and might even bring their own drills to the program. They also often take on the "good guy" role, building strong relationships with the players. Younger assistant coaches are sometimes used as practice bodies as well.

Head coaches typically set the overall tactics and scheme, while the assistants work within that framework. The head coach sets the overarching practice plan, and the assistant coaches execute it, handling the details. During games, the head coach manages rotations and makes critical in-game decisions, with varying input from assistants.

Given how impactful assistants are to day-to-day development, it's crucial to evaluate and hire strong assistants. Collins runs a solid program, and players and staff execute within that structure. Running that program is what coaching at the D1 level looks like, and it's impossible to separate development from recruiting. No two programs are developing the same sets of players. The staff a head coach surrounds themselves with impacts nearly every aspect of their job, from scouting and recruiting to development and in-game management. This is where Collins deserves credit for staff selection and the program as a whole, especially since he made the tournament with different staff and players, something no other program at NU has ever done.

It’s impossible to accurately evaluate and separate what PWB is asking for. He’s asking for that separation because it’s a position that can never be proven wrong either way and is purely subjective. It’s too obvious that Collins is the best coach when you consider what truly matters and the actual role of a D1 coach.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Sorry for getting sucked in again, but this post regarding assistants vs HC intrigued me. Expanding on this, in my experience and in conversations with other former athletes who played at much higher levels than myself, assistant coaches definitely carry the load of the day-to-day fundamental training. Head coaches will step in occasionally to do actual fundamental training, but they primarily bounce around practice with a general overview and step in when they need to make specific points. Assistant coaches are typically the ones running drills, giving pointers, and might even bring their own drills to the program. They also often take on the "good guy" role, building strong relationships with the players. Younger assistant coaches are sometimes used as practice bodies as well.

Head coaches typically set the overall tactics and scheme, while the assistants work within that framework. The head coach sets the overarching practice plan, and the assistant coaches execute it, handling the details. During games, the head coach manages rotations and makes critical in-game decisions, with varying input from assistants.

Given how impactful assistants are to day-to-day development, it's crucial to evaluate and hire strong assistants. Collins runs a solid program, and players and staff execute within that structure. Running that program is what coaching at the D1 level looks like, and it's impossible to separate development from recruiting. No two programs are developing the same sets of players. The staff a head coach surrounds themselves with impacts nearly every aspect of their job, from scouting and recruiting to development and in-game management. This is where Collins deserves credit for staff selection and the program as a whole, especially since he made the tournament with different staff and players, something no other program at NU has ever done.

It’s impossible to accurately evaluate and separate what PWB is asking for. He’s asking for that separation because it’s a position that can never be proven wrong either way and is purely subjective. It’s too obvious that Collins is the best coach when you consider what truly matters and the actual role of a D1 coach.

It’s hard not to get sucked in. If you want to argue Longborg was better then fine, (although based on what is presented as Coaching” I am not sure how anyone under 100 years old would know). However, I am not quite 100 and saw most games coached by Carmody and CCC. I don’t care what definition you use, CCC is better in every facet and it’s not really close. I think all but 1 or 2 people feel this way, but there always is a justification to take the contrarian position and if gets shot down, just go to the ole argument that can’t be proved one way or another.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

It’s hard not to get sucked in. If you want to argue Longborg was better then fine, (although based on what is presented as Coaching” I am not sure how anyone under 100 years old would know). However, I am not quite 100 and saw most games coached by Carmody and CCC. I don’t care what definition you use, CCC is better in every facet and it’s not really close. I think all but 1 or 2 people feel this way, but there always is a justification to take the contrarian position and if gets shot down, just go to the ole argument that can’t be proved one way or another.

---

I think CCC has been, and still is, underrated from both a development and tactical perspective on this board. Yes, he has significantly raised the athletic floor and ceiling of the program, and that’s an extremely important part of winning games at this level. The question I pose is: how many teams over his tenure have you thought to yourself were greater as a team and in how they fit together, rather than just being driven by the talent of individual players? When he as a team driven by an individual player or moments in a game driven by individual players how often is the scheme set up to get them favorable matchups and utilize what makes them individually great helping facilitate those moments?

 

[PURPLECAT88]

how many teams over his tenure have you thought to yourself were greater as a team and in how they fit together, rather than just being driven by the talent of individual players?

The only year I thought they were not better than the sum of their parts was the Allstate Arena year, and I'm willing to give him a pass on that.

 

[hdhntr1]

Sorry for getting sucked in again, but this post regarding assistants vs HC intrigued me. Expanding on this, in my experience and in conversations with other former athletes who played at much higher levels than myself, assistant coaches definitely carry the load of the day-to-day fundamental training. Head coaches will step in occasionally to do actual fundamental training, but they primarily bounce around practice with a general overview and step in when they need to make specific points. Assistant coaches are typically the ones running drills, giving pointers, and might even bring their own drills to the program. They also often take on the "good guy" role, building strong relationships with the players. Younger assistant coaches are sometimes used as practice bodies as well.

Head coaches typically set the overall tactics and scheme, while the assistants work within that framework. The head coach sets the overarching practice plan, and the assistant coaches execute it, handling the details. During games, the head coach manages rotations and makes critical in-game decisions, with varying input from assistants.

Given how impactful assistants are to day-to-day development, it's crucial to evaluate and hire strong assistants. Collins runs a solid program, and players and staff execute within that structure. Running that program is what coaching at the D1 level looks like, and it's impossible to separate development from recruiting. No two programs are developing the same sets of players. The staff a head coach surrounds themselves with impacts nearly every aspect of their job, from scouting and recruiting to development and in-game management. This is where Collins deserves credit for staff selection and the program as a whole, especially since he made the tournament with different staff and players, something no other program at NU has ever done.

It’s impossible to accurately evaluate and separate what PWB is asking for. He’s asking for that separation because it’s a position that can never be proven wrong either way and is purely subjective. It’s too obvious that Collins is the best coach when you consider what truly matters and the actual role of a D1 coach.

Thanks for going into the details

 

[hdhntr1]

It’s hard not to get sucked in. If you want to argue Longborg was better then fine, (although based on what is presented as Coaching” I am not sure how anyone under 100 years old would know). However, I am not quite 100 and saw most games coached by Carmody and CCC. I don’t care what definition you use, CCC is better in every facet and it’s not really close. I think all but 1 or 2 people feel this way, but there always is a justification to take the contrarian position and if gets shot down, just go to the ole argument that can’t be proved one way or another.

Reality is that it is all a lot more complicated now than it was when Carmody had the position, Hard to imagine him managing the program in today's BIG and NCAA

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

CCC is better in every facet and it’s not really close.

Think about how crazy it is to believe that two people have done the same job at the same place, had generally comparable results and one of them is "better in every facet." Its just not a logical statement.

Kevin O'Neill was supposedly a basketball savant. His teams went 9-39 against the Big Ten. He may have actually been a savant, which Collins is not, but he was a disaster in many aspects of the job. So Collins has outperformed him with his 87-141 record and his 3 NCAA tournament appearances.

Carmody was 70-150. Given the advantage Collins has had with the upgraded facilities and the fact that he has recruited better players, I'd say it is virtually impossible that Collins is better than Carmody "in every facet."

If Collins were as good (in every facet) of the job as some people want to believe, he'd have a winning Big Ten record.
Maybe he'll get there.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

---

I think CCC has been, and still is, underrated from both a development and tactical perspective on this board. Yes, he has significantly raised the athletic floor and ceiling of the program, and that’s an extremely important part of winning games at this level. The question I pose is: how many teams over his tenure have you thought to yourself were greater as a team and in how they fit together, rather than just being driven by the talent of individual players? When he as a team driven by an individual player or moments in a game driven by individual players how often is the scheme set up to get them favorable matchups and utilize what makes them individually great helping facilitate those moments?

The team that Pete Nance and Ryan Young gave up on was much better than their record.
That is as obvious as can be.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Think about how crazy it is to believe that two people have done the same job at the same place, had generally comparable results and one of them is "better in every facet." Its just not a logical statement.

Kevin O'Neill was supposedly a basketball savant. His teams went 9-39 against the Big Ten. He may have actually been a savant, which Collins is not, but he was a disaster in many aspects of the job. So Collins has outperformed him with his 87-141 record and his 3 NCAA tournament appearances.

Carmody was 70-150. Given the advantage Collins has had with the upgraded facilities and the fact that he has recruited better players, I'd say it is virtually impossible that Collins is better than Carmody "in every facet."

If Collins were as good (in every facet) of the job as some people want to believe, he'd have a winning Big Ten record.
Maybe he'll get there.

Name any facet that Carmody was better than CCC.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Again, you do not seem to understand the job of the Head Basketball Coach for an NCAA D1 program. It is not really even close to what you are suggesting. The job is that of a CEO for the program, It is coordination and management, The actual fundamentals training, Xs and Os are left to the assistant coaches. The job is to oversee the overall direction of the program, hire the right assistants direct those assistants to do their jobs and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction, Your interpretation of HCs job does not even sound close to the actual job. Another way of saying this is that any similarity between what you are pushing as the HC job and what it is is purely coincidental

Again, you don't seem to understand the argument.
I'm not talking about what head coaches are responsible for - although you seem to have forgotten that they actually make a lot of decisions during the games.
I'm not talking about how successful or unsuccessful Carmody has been compared to Collins.
It is clear that Collins has been more successful - although three seasons ago that was NOT the case.

I'm simply attributing the difference in results to better recruiting. Thats it.

Not sure why this is such a problem for people.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

The team that Pete Nance and Ryan Young gave up on was much better than their record.
That is as obvious as can be.

That wasn’t a team, it was a collection of individuals. That was CCC’s worst showing as a Coach as he gave way to much latitude to players that clearly had flaws.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Think about how crazy it is to believe that two people have done the same job at the same place, had generally comparable results and one of them is "better in every facet." Its just not a logical statement.

Kevin O'Neill was supposedly a basketball savant. His teams went 9-39 against the Big Ten. He may have actually been a savant, which Collins is not, but he was a disaster in many aspects of the job. So Collins has outperformed him with his 87-141 record and his 3 NCAA tournament appearances.

Carmody was 70-150. Given the advantage Collins has had with the upgraded facilities and the fact that he has recruited better players, I'd say it is virtually impossible that Collins is better than Carmody "in every facet."

If Collins were as good (in every facet) of the job as some people want to believe, he'd have a winning Big Ten record.
Maybe he'll get there.

He’s the first coach in almost 50 years to post a winning B1G record. When discussing NU sports, especially basketball, you have to grade things on a curve. Considering the academic restrictions, historical insignificance, lack of administration and fan support, and frankly being historically one of the worst programs in a power conference, it's important to contextualize. It also takes good players to win games, and as I mentioned earlier, increasing the talent level is crucial for the program's progression. To consistently post a winning B1G record, he would have needed at least developed, middle-tier talent every year. I would argue that wasn’t the case for most teams during his tenure. At least one team was in the upper third, and a couple others were in the upper half, those teams just happened to have winning Big Ten seasons.

At some point the success CCC has had here despite everything working against any coach at this program, you’re going to have to admit you were overly critical and wrong about him. I’d argue that should have happened after 3rd tournament season but maybe you need another one.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

Again, you don't seem to understand the argument.
I'm not talking about what head coaches are responsible for - although you seem to have forgotten that they actually make a lot of decisions during the games.
I'm not talking about how successful or unsuccessful Carmody has been compared to Collins.
It is clear that Collins has been more successful - although three seasons ago that was NOT the case.

I'm simply attributing the difference in results to better recruiting. Thats it.

Not sure why this is such a problem for people.

Stop telling us we don't understand. We understand exactly what you are saying. We just reject your premise. There is no way to objectively rate "coaching' as separate from recruiting, hiring assistants, managing the program, etc. It's not that we don't understand what you are trying to ask, or that we are refusing to engage on your terms. It's that what you are asking us to evaluate is impossible.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

He’s the first coach in almost 50 years to post a winning B1G record. When discussing NU sports, especially basketball, you have to grade things on a curve. Considering the academic restrictions, historical insignificance, lack of administration and fan support, and frankly being historically one of the worst programs in a power conference, it's important to contextualize. It also takes good players to win games, and as I mentioned earlier, increasing the talent level is crucial for the program's progression. To consistently post a winning B1G record, he would have needed at least developed, middle-tier talent every year. I would argue that wasn’t the case for most teams during his tenure. At least one team was in the upper third, and a couple others were in the upper half, those teams just happened to have winning Big Ten seasons.

At some point the success CCC has had here despite everything working against any coach at this program, you’re going to have to admit you were overly critical and wrong about him. I’d argue that should have happened after 3rd tournament season but maybe you need another one.

Liked the first paragraph.
Was going to say "thats fair - and your tone is so much better"
But then you added the 2nd part.
Oh well.

I criticize Collins when I feel he has messed up. I compliment him when I feel he is doing well. There are a lot of homers on this board, so I guess I stand out, but things like "Big Ten winning percentage" are simply facts. Logic over emotion, thats where I'm coming from.

 

[hdhntr1]

Again, you don't seem to understand the argument.
I'm not talking about what head coaches are responsible for - although you seem to have forgotten that they actually make a lot of decisions during the games.
I'm not talking about how successful or unsuccessful Carmody has been compared to Collins.
It is clear that Collins has been more successful - although three seasons ago that was NOT the case.

I'm simply attributing the difference in results to better recruiting. Thats it.

Not sure why this is such a problem for people.

And you don't seem to understand the job of the HC. I would suggest you read what ThatkidfromHolland wrote. It is a good description of what the job is, Not your evaluation based on 5-10% of the actual job

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Liked the first paragraph.
Was going to say "thats fair - and your tone is so much better"
But then you added the 2nd part.
Oh well.

I criticize Collins when I feel he has messed up. I compliment him when I feel he is doing well. There are a lot of homers on this board, so I guess I stand out, but things like "Big Ten winning percentage" are simply facts. Logic over emotion, thats where I'm coming from.

Given all the metrics and well worded arguments in the thread I don’t know how any logical person could not conclude that Collins is the best coach to do it at NU. Logic over emotion, that’s where I’m coming from.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Stop telling us we don't understand. We understand exactly what you are saying. We just reject your premise. There is no way to objectively rate "coaching' as separate from recruiting, hiring assistants, managing the program, etc. It's not that we don't understand what you are trying to ask, or that we are refusing to engage on your terms. It's that what you are asking us to evaluate is impossible.

First of all, I responded directly to hdhntr1. My comment had nothing to do with you, so why freak out?
Secondly, how is it impossible to separate coaching from recruiting? I did it. I defined what those terms mean - for the purpose of discussion. Recruiting is building (and maintaining) a roster of players. Coaching is everything else related to winning or losing games.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

And you don't seem to understand the job of the HC. I would suggest you read what ThatkidfromHolland wrote. It is a good description of what the job is, Not your evaluation based on 5-10% of the actual job

I'm not arguing about the description of the head coaching job! What is going on in your head?

 

[hdhntr1]

Given all the metrics and well worded arguments in the thread I don’t know how any logical person could not conclude that Collins is the best coach to do it at NU. Logic over emotion, that’s where I’m coming from.

Again, I will give you the best coach in the last 50-60 years. Maybe longer but hard to say best ever. At the same time the job is so much different now that it was in those earlier years, Pretty hard to compare the job today with anything over 50-60 years ago,

He has been good for us but reality is good for us is still a BIG win % of only a little over 35%. Hopefully it climbs going forward

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Again, I will give you the best coach in the last 50-60 years. Maybe longer but hard to say best ever. At the same time the job is so much different now that it was in those earlier years, Pretty hard to compare the job today with anything over 50-60 years ago,

He has been good for us but reality is good for us is still a BIG win % of only a little over 35%. Hopefully it climbs going forward

Apples to Oranges comparison if you are referencing the all time winningest coach. A completely different sport at that point in time let alone a completely different league.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Given all the metrics and well worded arguments in the thread I don’t know how any logical person could not conclude that Collins is the best coach to do it at NU. Logic over emotion, that’s where I’m coming from.

You like to repeat things I write.
But I'm not sure what your point is.
Who is saying what about Collins, in your mind?

 

[hdhntr1]

Apples to Oranges comparison if you are referencing the all time winningest coach. A completely different sport at that point in time let alone a completely different league.

I am not saying it is not a different sport than it is now. But those coaches won against what they went up against, Just suggesting that you should qualify the statement and limit it to the last 50-60 years rather than make it all time best at NU