Been thinking this for the last week or so .....

[hdhntr1]

We both know that recruiting and coaching ARE separate things.
Recruiting is about building your roster - period.
It includes talent evaluation and salesmanship, among other things.
Coaching is everything that pertains to winning games once you have your roster.

I think you're trying to say that a college head coach has to do both (recruiting and coaching) - and thats certainly true.
But it is easy enough to evaluate them separately.

Again, you do not seem to understand the job of the Head Basketball Coach for an NCAA D1 program. It is not really even close to what you are suggesting. The job is that of a CEO for the program, It is coordination and management, The actual fundamentals training, Xs and Os are left to the assistant coaches. The job is to oversee the overall direction of the program, hire the right assistants direct those assistants to do their jobs and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction, Your interpretation of HCs job does not even sound close to the actual job. Another way of saying this is that any similarity between what you are pushing as the HC job and what it is is purely coincidental

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Again, you do not seem to understand the job of the Head Basketball Coach for an NCAA D1 program. It is not really even close to what you are suggesting. The job is that of a CEO for the program, It is coordination and management, The actual fundamentals training, Xs and Os are left to the assistant coaches. The job is to oversee the overall direction of the program, hire the right assistants direct those assistants to do their jobs and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction, Your interpretation of HCs job does not even sound close to the actual job. Another way of saying this is that any similarity between what you are pushing as the HC job and what it is is purely coincidental

Sorry for getting sucked in again, but this post regarding assistants vs HC intrigued me. Expanding on this, in my experience and in conversations with other former athletes who played at much higher levels than myself, assistant coaches definitely carry the load of the day-to-day fundamental training. Head coaches will step in occasionally to do actual fundamental training, but they primarily bounce around practice with a general overview and step in when they need to make specific points. Assistant coaches are typically the ones running drills, giving pointers, and might even bring their own drills to the program. They also often take on the "good guy" role, building strong relationships with the players. Younger assistant coaches are sometimes used as practice bodies as well.

Head coaches typically set the overall tactics and scheme, while the assistants work within that framework. The head coach sets the overarching practice plan, and the assistant coaches execute it, handling the details. During games, the head coach manages rotations and makes critical in-game decisions, with varying input from assistants.

Given how impactful assistants are to day-to-day development, it's crucial to evaluate and hire strong assistants. Collins runs a solid program, and players and staff execute within that structure. Running that program is what coaching at the D1 level looks like, and it's impossible to separate development from recruiting. No two programs are developing the same sets of players. The staff a head coach surrounds themselves with impacts nearly every aspect of their job, from scouting and recruiting to development and in-game management. This is where Collins deserves credit for staff selection and the program as a whole, especially since he made the tournament with different staff and players, something no other program at NU has ever done.

It’s impossible to accurately evaluate and separate what PWB is asking for. He’s asking for that separation because it’s a position that can never be proven wrong either way and is purely subjective. It’s too obvious that Collins is the best coach when you consider what truly matters and the actual role of a D1 coach.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

Sorry for getting sucked in again, but this post regarding assistants vs HC intrigued me. Expanding on this, in my experience and in conversations with other former athletes who played at much higher levels than myself, assistant coaches definitely carry the load of the day-to-day fundamental training. Head coaches will step in occasionally to do actual fundamental training, but they primarily bounce around practice with a general overview and step in when they need to make specific points. Assistant coaches are typically the ones running drills, giving pointers, and might even bring their own drills to the program. They also often take on the "good guy" role, building strong relationships with the players. Younger assistant coaches are sometimes used as practice bodies as well.

Head coaches typically set the overall tactics and scheme, while the assistants work within that framework. The head coach sets the overarching practice plan, and the assistant coaches execute it, handling the details. During games, the head coach manages rotations and makes critical in-game decisions, with varying input from assistants.

Given how impactful assistants are to day-to-day development, it's crucial to evaluate and hire strong assistants. Collins runs a solid program, and players and staff execute within that structure. Running that program is what coaching at the D1 level looks like, and it's impossible to separate development from recruiting. No two programs are developing the same sets of players. The staff a head coach surrounds themselves with impacts nearly every aspect of their job, from scouting and recruiting to development and in-game management. This is where Collins deserves credit for staff selection and the program as a whole, especially since he made the tournament with different staff and players, something no other program at NU has ever done.

It’s impossible to accurately evaluate and separate what PWB is asking for. He’s asking for that separation because it’s a position that can never be proven wrong either way and is purely subjective. It’s too obvious that Collins is the best coach when you consider what truly matters and the actual role of a D1 coach.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Sorry for getting sucked in again, but this post regarding assistants vs HC intrigued me. Expanding on this, in my experience and in conversations with other former athletes who played at much higher levels than myself, assistant coaches definitely carry the load of the day-to-day fundamental training. Head coaches will step in occasionally to do actual fundamental training, but they primarily bounce around practice with a general overview and step in when they need to make specific points. Assistant coaches are typically the ones running drills, giving pointers, and might even bring their own drills to the program. They also often take on the "good guy" role, building strong relationships with the players. Younger assistant coaches are sometimes used as practice bodies as well.

Head coaches typically set the overall tactics and scheme, while the assistants work within that framework. The head coach sets the overarching practice plan, and the assistant coaches execute it, handling the details. During games, the head coach manages rotations and makes critical in-game decisions, with varying input from assistants.

Given how impactful assistants are to day-to-day development, it's crucial to evaluate and hire strong assistants. Collins runs a solid program, and players and staff execute within that structure. Running that program is what coaching at the D1 level looks like, and it's impossible to separate development from recruiting. No two programs are developing the same sets of players. The staff a head coach surrounds themselves with impacts nearly every aspect of their job, from scouting and recruiting to development and in-game management. This is where Collins deserves credit for staff selection and the program as a whole, especially since he made the tournament with different staff and players, something no other program at NU has ever done.

It’s impossible to accurately evaluate and separate what PWB is asking for. He’s asking for that separation because it’s a position that can never be proven wrong either way and is purely subjective. It’s too obvious that Collins is the best coach when you consider what truly matters and the actual role of a D1 coach.

It’s hard not to get sucked in. If you want to argue Longborg was better then fine, (although based on what is presented as Coaching” I am not sure how anyone under 100 years old would know). However, I am not quite 100 and saw most games coached by Carmody and CCC. I don’t care what definition you use, CCC is better in every facet and it’s not really close. I think all but 1 or 2 people feel this way, but there always is a justification to take the contrarian position and if gets shot down, just go to the ole argument that can’t be proved one way or another.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

It’s hard not to get sucked in. If you want to argue Longborg was better then fine, (although based on what is presented as Coaching” I am not sure how anyone under 100 years old would know). However, I am not quite 100 and saw most games coached by Carmody and CCC. I don’t care what definition you use, CCC is better in every facet and it’s not really close. I think all but 1 or 2 people feel this way, but there always is a justification to take the contrarian position and if gets shot down, just go to the ole argument that can’t be proved one way or another.

---

I think CCC has been, and still is, underrated from both a development and tactical perspective on this board. Yes, he has significantly raised the athletic floor and ceiling of the program, and that’s an extremely important part of winning games at this level. The question I pose is: how many teams over his tenure have you thought to yourself were greater as a team and in how they fit together, rather than just being driven by the talent of individual players? When he as a team driven by an individual player or moments in a game driven by individual players how often is the scheme set up to get them favorable matchups and utilize what makes them individually great helping facilitate those moments?

 

[PURPLECAT88]

how many teams over his tenure have you thought to yourself were greater as a team and in how they fit together, rather than just being driven by the talent of individual players?

The only year I thought they were not better than the sum of their parts was the Allstate Arena year, and I'm willing to give him a pass on that.

 

[hdhntr1]

Sorry for getting sucked in again, but this post regarding assistants vs HC intrigued me. Expanding on this, in my experience and in conversations with other former athletes who played at much higher levels than myself, assistant coaches definitely carry the load of the day-to-day fundamental training. Head coaches will step in occasionally to do actual fundamental training, but they primarily bounce around practice with a general overview and step in when they need to make specific points. Assistant coaches are typically the ones running drills, giving pointers, and might even bring their own drills to the program. They also often take on the "good guy" role, building strong relationships with the players. Younger assistant coaches are sometimes used as practice bodies as well.

Head coaches typically set the overall tactics and scheme, while the assistants work within that framework. The head coach sets the overarching practice plan, and the assistant coaches execute it, handling the details. During games, the head coach manages rotations and makes critical in-game decisions, with varying input from assistants.

Given how impactful assistants are to day-to-day development, it's crucial to evaluate and hire strong assistants. Collins runs a solid program, and players and staff execute within that structure. Running that program is what coaching at the D1 level looks like, and it's impossible to separate development from recruiting. No two programs are developing the same sets of players. The staff a head coach surrounds themselves with impacts nearly every aspect of their job, from scouting and recruiting to development and in-game management. This is where Collins deserves credit for staff selection and the program as a whole, especially since he made the tournament with different staff and players, something no other program at NU has ever done.

It’s impossible to accurately evaluate and separate what PWB is asking for. He’s asking for that separation because it’s a position that can never be proven wrong either way and is purely subjective. It’s too obvious that Collins is the best coach when you consider what truly matters and the actual role of a D1 coach.

Thanks for going into the details

 

[hdhntr1]

It’s hard not to get sucked in. If you want to argue Longborg was better then fine, (although based on what is presented as Coaching” I am not sure how anyone under 100 years old would know). However, I am not quite 100 and saw most games coached by Carmody and CCC. I don’t care what definition you use, CCC is better in every facet and it’s not really close. I think all but 1 or 2 people feel this way, but there always is a justification to take the contrarian position and if gets shot down, just go to the ole argument that can’t be proved one way or another.

Reality is that it is all a lot more complicated now than it was when Carmody had the position, Hard to imagine him managing the program in today's BIG and NCAA

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

CCC is better in every facet and it’s not really close.

Think about how crazy it is to believe that two people have done the same job at the same place, had generally comparable results and one of them is "better in every facet." Its just not a logical statement.

Kevin O'Neill was supposedly a basketball savant. His teams went 9-39 against the Big Ten. He may have actually been a savant, which Collins is not, but he was a disaster in many aspects of the job. So Collins has outperformed him with his 87-141 record and his 3 NCAA tournament appearances.

Carmody was 70-150. Given the advantage Collins has had with the upgraded facilities and the fact that he has recruited better players, I'd say it is virtually impossible that Collins is better than Carmody "in every facet."

If Collins were as good (in every facet) of the job as some people want to believe, he'd have a winning Big Ten record.
Maybe he'll get there.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

---

I think CCC has been, and still is, underrated from both a development and tactical perspective on this board. Yes, he has significantly raised the athletic floor and ceiling of the program, and that’s an extremely important part of winning games at this level. The question I pose is: how many teams over his tenure have you thought to yourself were greater as a team and in how they fit together, rather than just being driven by the talent of individual players? When he as a team driven by an individual player or moments in a game driven by individual players how often is the scheme set up to get them favorable matchups and utilize what makes them individually great helping facilitate those moments?

The team that Pete Nance and Ryan Young gave up on was much better than their record.
That is as obvious as can be.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Think about how crazy it is to believe that two people have done the same job at the same place, had generally comparable results and one of them is "better in every facet." Its just not a logical statement.

Kevin O'Neill was supposedly a basketball savant. His teams went 9-39 against the Big Ten. He may have actually been a savant, which Collins is not, but he was a disaster in many aspects of the job. So Collins has outperformed him with his 87-141 record and his 3 NCAA tournament appearances.

Carmody was 70-150. Given the advantage Collins has had with the upgraded facilities and the fact that he has recruited better players, I'd say it is virtually impossible that Collins is better than Carmody "in every facet."

If Collins were as good (in every facet) of the job as some people want to believe, he'd have a winning Big Ten record.
Maybe he'll get there.

Name any facet that Carmody was better than CCC.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Again, you do not seem to understand the job of the Head Basketball Coach for an NCAA D1 program. It is not really even close to what you are suggesting. The job is that of a CEO for the program, It is coordination and management, The actual fundamentals training, Xs and Os are left to the assistant coaches. The job is to oversee the overall direction of the program, hire the right assistants direct those assistants to do their jobs and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction, Your interpretation of HCs job does not even sound close to the actual job. Another way of saying this is that any similarity between what you are pushing as the HC job and what it is is purely coincidental

Again, you don't seem to understand the argument.
I'm not talking about what head coaches are responsible for - although you seem to have forgotten that they actually make a lot of decisions during the games.
I'm not talking about how successful or unsuccessful Carmody has been compared to Collins.
It is clear that Collins has been more successful - although three seasons ago that was NOT the case.

I'm simply attributing the difference in results to better recruiting. Thats it.

Not sure why this is such a problem for people.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

The team that Pete Nance and Ryan Young gave up on was much better than their record.
That is as obvious as can be.

That wasn’t a team, it was a collection of individuals. That was CCC’s worst showing as a Coach as he gave way to much latitude to players that clearly had flaws.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Think about how crazy it is to believe that two people have done the same job at the same place, had generally comparable results and one of them is "better in every facet." Its just not a logical statement.

Kevin O'Neill was supposedly a basketball savant. His teams went 9-39 against the Big Ten. He may have actually been a savant, which Collins is not, but he was a disaster in many aspects of the job. So Collins has outperformed him with his 87-141 record and his 3 NCAA tournament appearances.

Carmody was 70-150. Given the advantage Collins has had with the upgraded facilities and the fact that he has recruited better players, I'd say it is virtually impossible that Collins is better than Carmody "in every facet."

If Collins were as good (in every facet) of the job as some people want to believe, he'd have a winning Big Ten record.
Maybe he'll get there.

He’s the first coach in almost 50 years to post a winning B1G record. When discussing NU sports, especially basketball, you have to grade things on a curve. Considering the academic restrictions, historical insignificance, lack of administration and fan support, and frankly being historically one of the worst programs in a power conference, it's important to contextualize. It also takes good players to win games, and as I mentioned earlier, increasing the talent level is crucial for the program's progression. To consistently post a winning B1G record, he would have needed at least developed, middle-tier talent every year. I would argue that wasn’t the case for most teams during his tenure. At least one team was in the upper third, and a couple others were in the upper half, those teams just happened to have winning Big Ten seasons.

At some point the success CCC has had here despite everything working against any coach at this program, you’re going to have to admit you were overly critical and wrong about him. I’d argue that should have happened after 3rd tournament season but maybe you need another one.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

Again, you don't seem to understand the argument.
I'm not talking about what head coaches are responsible for - although you seem to have forgotten that they actually make a lot of decisions during the games.
I'm not talking about how successful or unsuccessful Carmody has been compared to Collins.
It is clear that Collins has been more successful - although three seasons ago that was NOT the case.

I'm simply attributing the difference in results to better recruiting. Thats it.

Not sure why this is such a problem for people.

Stop telling us we don't understand. We understand exactly what you are saying. We just reject your premise. There is no way to objectively rate "coaching' as separate from recruiting, hiring assistants, managing the program, etc. It's not that we don't understand what you are trying to ask, or that we are refusing to engage on your terms. It's that what you are asking us to evaluate is impossible.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

He’s the first coach in almost 50 years to post a winning B1G record. When discussing NU sports, especially basketball, you have to grade things on a curve. Considering the academic restrictions, historical insignificance, lack of administration and fan support, and frankly being historically one of the worst programs in a power conference, it's important to contextualize. It also takes good players to win games, and as I mentioned earlier, increasing the talent level is crucial for the program's progression. To consistently post a winning B1G record, he would have needed at least developed, middle-tier talent every year. I would argue that wasn’t the case for most teams during his tenure. At least one team was in the upper third, and a couple others were in the upper half, those teams just happened to have winning Big Ten seasons.

At some point the success CCC has had here despite everything working against any coach at this program, you’re going to have to admit you were overly critical and wrong about him. I’d argue that should have happened after 3rd tournament season but maybe you need another one.

Liked the first paragraph.
Was going to say "thats fair - and your tone is so much better"
But then you added the 2nd part.
Oh well.

I criticize Collins when I feel he has messed up. I compliment him when I feel he is doing well. There are a lot of homers on this board, so I guess I stand out, but things like "Big Ten winning percentage" are simply facts. Logic over emotion, thats where I'm coming from.

 

[hdhntr1]

Again, you don't seem to understand the argument.
I'm not talking about what head coaches are responsible for - although you seem to have forgotten that they actually make a lot of decisions during the games.
I'm not talking about how successful or unsuccessful Carmody has been compared to Collins.
It is clear that Collins has been more successful - although three seasons ago that was NOT the case.

I'm simply attributing the difference in results to better recruiting. Thats it.

Not sure why this is such a problem for people.

And you don't seem to understand the job of the HC. I would suggest you read what ThatkidfromHolland wrote. It is a good description of what the job is, Not your evaluation based on 5-10% of the actual job

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Liked the first paragraph.
Was going to say "thats fair - and your tone is so much better"
But then you added the 2nd part.
Oh well.

I criticize Collins when I feel he has messed up. I compliment him when I feel he is doing well. There are a lot of homers on this board, so I guess I stand out, but things like "Big Ten winning percentage" are simply facts. Logic over emotion, thats where I'm coming from.

Given all the metrics and well worded arguments in the thread I don’t know how any logical person could not conclude that Collins is the best coach to do it at NU. Logic over emotion, that’s where I’m coming from.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Stop telling us we don't understand. We understand exactly what you are saying. We just reject your premise. There is no way to objectively rate "coaching' as separate from recruiting, hiring assistants, managing the program, etc. It's not that we don't understand what you are trying to ask, or that we are refusing to engage on your terms. It's that what you are asking us to evaluate is impossible.

First of all, I responded directly to hdhntr1. My comment had nothing to do with you, so why freak out?
Secondly, how is it impossible to separate coaching from recruiting? I did it. I defined what those terms mean - for the purpose of discussion. Recruiting is building (and maintaining) a roster of players. Coaching is everything else related to winning or losing games.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

And you don't seem to understand the job of the HC. I would suggest you read what ThatkidfromHolland wrote. It is a good description of what the job is, Not your evaluation based on 5-10% of the actual job

I'm not arguing about the description of the head coaching job! What is going on in your head?

 

[hdhntr1]

Given all the metrics and well worded arguments in the thread I don’t know how any logical person could not conclude that Collins is the best coach to do it at NU. Logic over emotion, that’s where I’m coming from.

Again, I will give you the best coach in the last 50-60 years. Maybe longer but hard to say best ever. At the same time the job is so much different now that it was in those earlier years, Pretty hard to compare the job today with anything over 50-60 years ago,

He has been good for us but reality is good for us is still a BIG win % of only a little over 35%. Hopefully it climbs going forward

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Again, I will give you the best coach in the last 50-60 years. Maybe longer but hard to say best ever. At the same time the job is so much different now that it was in those earlier years, Pretty hard to compare the job today with anything over 50-60 years ago,

He has been good for us but reality is good for us is still a BIG win % of only a little over 35%. Hopefully it climbs going forward

Apples to Oranges comparison if you are referencing the all time winningest coach. A completely different sport at that point in time let alone a completely different league.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Given all the metrics and well worded arguments in the thread I don’t know how any logical person could not conclude that Collins is the best coach to do it at NU. Logic over emotion, that’s where I’m coming from.

You like to repeat things I write.
But I'm not sure what your point is.
Who is saying what about Collins, in your mind?

 

[hdhntr1]

Apples to Oranges comparison if you are referencing the all time winningest coach. A completely different sport at that point in time let alone a completely different league.

I am not saying it is not a different sport than it is now. But those coaches won against what they went up against, Just suggesting that you should qualify the statement and limit it to the last 50-60 years rather than make it all time best at NU

 

[CappyNU]

So, Cappy, the last 3 years have had a consistently well rated defense?

Of course they have. But it's not just been the past 3 years. He took Carmody's players and made them into a top-25 defense in year 1. He took his first recruiting class and built them up in 3 years to get to the tourney. Then the assistants started changing.

Collins' Assistants by season:

Coach	2014-2017	2018	2019	2020	2021	2022	2023	2024	2025
James	X	X	X	X	X	X	X	X	X
Baldwin	X
Gates	X	X
Donlon		X	X
Dildy			X	X	X
Borovich				X	X	X
Battle						X	X	X
Lowery							X	X	X
McIntosh							X	X	X
Southwell									X
Defense rank	23, 151, 87, 32	90	19	150	37	73	22	54	44

The 2018 season has been discussed many times, whether it was Allstate, or personality clashes on the team, or thinking they could just come back and repeat without the same mentality that got them there the first place, or maybe it was Baldwin's departure. The 2019 season was the true end of Collins' first class, and they had a top-20 defense despite significant offensive issues as they were integrating the 2nd major recruiting class of Kopp/Nance/Young.

I also put an asterisk on the 2021 season, as the data was much wonkier due to the lack of connectedness between conferences due to COVID scheduling. Obviously Lowery has had a huge impact, but just showing that we had good defenses prior to his arrival as well.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Name any facet that Carmody was better than CCC.

I wasn't going to answer because it is absolutely pointless, but I couldn't resist.

How about "Offense?"

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I wasn't going to answer because it is absolutely pointless, but I couldn't resist.

How about "Offense?"

With the “watch ball” approach to rebounding? If your FG % is 100 I guess it don’t matter.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I wasn't going to answer because it is absolutely pointless, but I couldn't resist.

How about "Offense?"

Ok I will answer seriously now despite as you say it being absolutely pointless.

Seasons average of 70 points or more:
Collins 6
Carmody 1

Try another facet .

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Ok I will answer seriously now despite as you say it being absolutely pointless.

Seasons average of 70 points or more:
Collins 6
Carmody 1

Try another facet .

If only life were that simple.
I'm not going to claim Carmody was a better defensive coach than Collins, despite the fact that

Seasons opponents held to less than 63 points

Carmody 6
Collins 1

You can go on Bart Torvik's website and compare the offensive efficiency of Carmody's teams with Collins' teams.
That'd be one way.

 

[CappyNU]

I wasn't going to answer because it is absolutely pointless, but I couldn't resist.

How about "Offense?"

Offense rank in B1G by year:

Carmody
2001 - 206, 11th of 11
2002 - 215, 10th of 11
2003 - 117, 9th of 11
2004 - 83, 7th of 11
2005 - 188, 10th of 11
2006 - 169, 10th of 11
2007 - 144, 10th of 11
2008 - 142, 9th of 11
2009 - 45, 6th of 11
2010 - 30, 3rd of 11
2011 - 15, 3rd of 11
2012 - 16, 4th of 12
2013 - 141, 10th of 12

Collins
2014 - 288, 12th of 12
2015 - 100, 11th of 14
2016 - 71, 7th of 14
2017 - 59, 8th of 14
2018 - 96, 12th of 14
2019 - 204, 14th of 14
2020 - 131, 13th of 14
2021 - 132, 13th of 14
2022 - 101, 12th of 14
2023 - 88, 10th of 14
2024 - 35, 6th of 14
2025 - 64, 15th of 18

Carmody had 8 seasons of a sub-100 rank offense, Collins has had 5 so far. Carmody had 5 good seasons of offense - the NIT years plus the year that he won coach of the year for going 8-8 when the conference put just 3 teams in the NCAA tourney. Collins has made the NCAA tourney 3 times in 7 seasons when he had a top-100 offense nationally. Did Carmody have a higher peak offense? Sure. Did he achieve success with that peak offense? Not the same level that Collins did.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Offense rank in B1G by year:

Carmody
2001 - 206, 11th of 11
2002 - 215, 10th of 11
2003 - 117, 9th of 11
2004 - 83, 7th of 11
2005 - 188, 10th of 11
2006 - 169, 10th of 11
2007 - 144, 10th of 11
2008 - 142, 9th of 11
2009 - 45, 6th of 11
2010 - 30, 3rd of 11
2011 - 15, 3rd of 11
2012 - 16, 4th of 12
2013 - 141, 10th of 12

Collins
2014 - 288, 12th of 12
2015 - 100, 11th of 14
2016 - 71, 7th of 14
2017 - 59, 8th of 14
2018 - 96, 12th of 14
2019 - 204, 14th of 14
2020 - 131, 13th of 14
2021 - 132, 13th of 14
2022 - 101, 12th of 14
2023 - 88, 10th of 14
2024 - 35, 6th of 14
2025 - 64, 15th of 18

Carmody had 8 seasons of a sub-100 rank offense, Collins has had 5 so far. Carmody had 5 good seasons of offense - the NIT years plus the year that he won coach of the year for going 8-8 when the conference put just 3 teams in the NCAA tourney. Collins has made the NCAA tourney 3 times in 7 seasons when he had a top-100 offense nationally. Did Carmody have a higher peak offense? Sure. Did he achieve success with that peak offense? Not the same level that Collins did.

Thanks, Cappy.
Torvik only goes back to 2008, so you must be using KenPom.
(Torvik is always as good or better than his rival)

If you assume Collins had players that were equal to Carmody's players, then you can make those comparisons.
But Collins has generally had better players.

Since we're talking about the coaches themselves, Carmody clearly had better offenses with his best teams than Collins did with his.
4 top 50's for Carmody versus 1 for Collins.

If you're a Big Ten team and your offense (or defense) is outside the top 100, it isn't very good and you'll struggle to win conference games.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Offense rank in B1G by year:

Carmody
2001 - 206, 11th of 11
2002 - 215, 10th of 11
2003 - 117, 9th of 11
2004 - 83, 7th of 11
2005 - 188, 10th of 11
2006 - 169, 10th of 11
2007 - 144, 10th of 11
2008 - 142, 9th of 11
2009 - 45, 6th of 11
2010 - 30, 3rd of 11
2011 - 15, 3rd of 11
2012 - 16, 4th of 12
2013 - 141, 10th of 12

Collins
2014 - 288, 12th of 12
2015 - 100, 11th of 14
2016 - 71, 7th of 14
2017 - 59, 8th of 14
2018 - 96, 12th of 14
2019 - 204, 14th of 14
2020 - 131, 13th of 14
2021 - 132, 13th of 14
2022 - 101, 12th of 14
2023 - 88, 10th of 14
2024 - 35, 6th of 14
2025 - 64, 15th of 18

Carmody had 8 seasons of a sub-100 rank offense, Collins has had 5 so far. Carmody had 5 good seasons of offense - the NIT years plus the year that he won coach of the year for going 8-8 when the conference put just 3 teams in the NCAA tourney. Collins has made the NCAA tourney 3 times in 7 seasons when he had a top-100 offense nationally. Did Carmody have a higher peak offense? Sure. Did he achieve success with that peak offense? Not the same level that Collins did.

Averaging this out, BC has 116.23 and CCC has 114.08. Eliminating the first year (when both coaches had no players who they brought in to fit their system), BC drops to 108.75 and CCC to 98.26.

So, while Carmody had a higher peak offense, CCC maintained better offensive consistency year over year. The two are pretty closely rated offensively, however CCC actually edges out BC as an offensive coach by the metrics. This leads me to conclude that CCC is actually an underrated offensive coach by this board, especially considering how much praise BC's offense receives.

 

[hdhntr1]

Of course they have. But it's not just been the past 3 years. He took Carmody's players and made them into a top-25 defense in year 1. He took his first recruiting class and built them up in 3 years to get to the tourney. Then the assistants started changing.

Collins' Assistants by season:

Coach	2014-2017	2018	2019	2020	2021	2022	2023	2024	2025
James	X	X	X	X	X	X	X	X	X
Baldwin	X
Gates	X	X
Donlon		X	X
Dildy			X	X	X
Borovich				X	X	X
Battle						X	X	X
Lowery							X	X	X
McIntosh							X	X	X
Southwell									X
Defense rank	23, 151, 87, 32	90	19	150	37	73	22	54	44

The 2018 season has been discussed many times, whether it was Allstate, or personality clashes on the team, or thinking they could just come back and repeat without the same mentality that got them there the first place, or maybe it was Baldwin's departure. The 2019 season was the true end of Collins' first class, and they had a top-20 defense despite significant offensive issues as they were integrating the 2nd major recruiting class of Kopp/Nance/Young.

I also put an asterisk on the 2021 season, as the data was much wonkier due to the lack of connectedness between conferences due to COVID scheduling. Obviously Lowery has had a huge impact, but just showing that we had good defenses prior to his arrival as well.

You mean the 2020 or 2021? Both were heavily involved with COVID but in different was and 2020 was much more of an anomaly than 2021

 

[stpaulcat]

The basketball program has come a long way. We are at the point where we are all pissed off about losing to a 20 win UCLA team (UCLA is a blue blood) by 4 with 2 of the top three players for NU out for the season.

Yes, I think that NU has legit complaints about the officials. I agree with many that the refs do not give NU the credit it deserves and that in big games, NU does not get the benefit of the calls. I also think this will change and here is why - Collins coaches tough defensive minded teams. As he has slowly built this program, he has been able to increase both the athleticism and skill levels of the players. Windham and Ciaravino are next level athlettes. Mullins is also really athletic and has become a solid defender. Martinelli is Robbie Hummel athletic - not great but there. Of the film I have watched, the recruits look more on par with Windham and Ciaravino ( I have not been able to get a read on Gill bc there is not much film on him but I am assuming he will be on par with Berry who is very underrated) than prior recruits.

Hopefully, Collins can supplement this group in the portal and NU will be right there again next year.

Also, I think that NU has a solid shot at the Crown Tourney based on the NET ranking in the 50s so this season is not dead yet.

It would be amazing if NU could become the next Duke or UCLA (except not Duke).

 

[docrugby1]

Without him and his local ties, Carmody would likely not have even had a shot at the 4 NIT bids.

So , you mean BC hired someone to bolster a weakness in his program. Why would any coach do that?

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Averaging this out, BC has 116.23 and CCC has 114.08. Eliminating the first year (when both coaches had no players who they brought in to fit their system), BC drops to 108.75 and CCC to 98.26.

So, while Carmody had a higher peak offense, CCC maintained better offensive consistency year over year. The two are pretty closely rated offensively, however CCC actually edges out BC as an offensive coach by the metrics. This leads me to conclude that CCC is actually an underrated offensive coach by this board, especially considering how much praise BC's offense receives.

Well, nice try. Assuming Carmody had teams that were just as talented on average as Collins' teams is a nice touch.

 

[eastbaycat99]

Less filling, no, tastes great.

The never ending story of being a fan.