Been thinking this for the last week or so .....

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Some people can't admit when they were wrong about someone and end up twisting the argument so much that it becomes a narrow point filled with word slop, all just to appear right and be impossible to prove either way. The reality is that recruiting and staff management are key components of Division I coaching. It doesn't matter how some message board poster tries to redefine coaching. There’s a lot that goes into the role recruiting, motivation, culture, and assembling the right assistants who complement your strengths and weaknesses. What I find funny is how my metrics were ignored by someone who claimed to be data-driven. Ignoring tournament appearances, wins, win percentages, Big Ten finishes, and more, and then claiming I didn't prove my metrics, is wild. I apologize to the board for getting pulled into the mess, I just couldn't help myself. We should all probably drop this and just root for the win today.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Some people just can’t take the L.

We get made up definitions of what Coaching is and somehow twist it to exclude securing players. Comical.

Then we ignore the Kid’s points on victories, tournaments . Beating the #1 team in the country and sustaining a level of success that hasn’t been seen in the modern era. That’s all fine and dandy, but somehow in the very next post a 180 is done and Dutch Lonborg’s Big Ten record is cited as in making a case for a more successful Coach. So which is it, records/wins matter or they don’t?

BTW, do you know if Dutch had better players that the opposition? How was his development, game management, and strategy. Did he have a Wizard or Taveras on staff? The fact is, he was around in the 1920’s and none of us have any idea. Dutch was a FOOTBALL coach before he became a basketball coach ( I can google too). Sounds like what you see in High Schools today with glorified PE teachers hopping from sport to sport.

When you call out this nonsense you get attacked as part of a “cult”. Taken straight out of the playbook of our own Linderman on these boards who I am sure will show up later. It’s obvious that we have one poster with relentless bias against our Head Coach. It’s brought up in nearly every thread and then this happens. The passive aggressive references to previous threads rear their ugly head and this happens.

Cap this non-sense!

You obviously can't follow what I wrote.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

The metrics cited by ThatKid are dumb.
You can think whatever you want.
Dumb metrics = bad argument.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Yes. I think we can all agree that if you disregard all the things that Collins is good at, then Carmody is just as good a coach.

Coaching and recruiting are separate.
I see some people who are not willing to make that distinction.
That makes it impossible to discuss.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

I can’t believe this is a debate… it’s Collins without a question. It’s not even really about talent - his teams are usually well prepared and play hard and give themselves a chance.

I saw a thread somewhere on here that said “The talent is there….” And what struck me is that I actually think Collin’s team this year isn’t very talented. They’re definitely bottom 2 or 3 in conference in terms of talent. But they’re so well coached that they overachieve significantly. I think Collins is a really solid coach, and I think Carmody’s body of work over the course of his career would tell you he’s nowhere close to Collins.

You are entitled to your opinion.
I disagree.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Truer words were never spoken.

Really? You will never give our players credit.
You never do.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Some people can't admit when they were wrong about someone and end up twisting the argument so much that it becomes a narrow point filled with word slop, all just to appear right and be impossible to prove either way. The reality is that recruiting and staff management are key components of Division I coaching. It doesn't matter how some message board poster tries to redefine coaching. There’s a lot that goes into the role recruiting, motivation, culture, and assembling the right assistants who complement your strengths and weaknesses. What I find funny is how my metrics were ignored by someone who claimed to be data-driven. Ignoring tournament appearances, wins, win percentages, Big Ten finishes, and more, and then claiming I didn't prove my metrics, is wild. I apologize to the board for getting pulled into the mess, I just couldn't help myself. We should all probably drop this and just root for the win today.

The discussion was about coaching. That requires a definition.
I made my statements based on the definition I am using.
I see you have a different definition of coaching.
You won't separate recruiting from coaching.
They are separate, but you refuse to discuss, because you don't want to.
Collins' advantage over Carmody is in recruiting.

P.S. Your metrics were not useful. They are flawed metrics. I had to provide a reasonable metric for you. Conference winning percentage is useful, aggregate wins or wins in a season are dumb (and clearly biased).

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Cap it!

 

[Vassar69]

Coaching and recruiting are separate.
I see some people who are not willing to make that distinction.
That makes it impossible to discuss.

In college, they aren’t. Talent acquisition + player development + staff management + personnel management + game planning + in game coaching are all part of the pie. Your record says how good you are at performing all the responsibilities of being a coach. Separating “recruiting” from “coaching” is moving the goalpost.

Very, very few coaches are excellent at all aspects. But a coach has to be adequate at all of the above, or they will not win (or not be able to sustain winning over a larger sample size). Records show who is a good coach and who isn’t.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

In college, they aren’t. Talent acquisition + player development + staff management + personnel management + game planning + in game coaching are all part of the pie. Your record says how good you are at performing all the responsibilities of being a coach. Separating “recruiting” from “coaching” is moving the goalpost.

Very, very few coaches are excellent at all aspects. But a coach has to be adequate at all of the above, or they will not win (or not be able to sustain winning over a larger sample size). Records show who is a good coach and who isn’t.

And hell just froze over.

 

[CappyNU]

I'm not capping it, this discussion is fine, in the sense that there is reasonably respectful debate back and forth.

I have my own thoughts as far as metrics go on this:

Kenpom "A" games record: Carmody 23-132, 14.8%; Collins 37-127, 22.6%
Kenpom "B" games record: Carmody 35-42, 45.5%; Collins 38-44, 46.3%
Kenpom rest of games record: Carmody 134-36, 78.8%; Collins 118-17, 87.4%
Conference/BTT games record: Carmody 75-163, 31.5%; Collins 91-152, 37.4%
NCAA Tourney record: Carmody 0-0, N/A; Collins 3-3, 50.0%
Top-half conference finishes: Carmody 1; Collins 3
Top-50 offenses: Carmody 4; Collins 1
Top-50 defenses: Carmody 1; Collins 6
1st-team all B1G players: Carmody 2 (Jitim Young, John Shurna); Collins 1 (Boo Buie)

In my opinion, you cannot separate recruiting from coaching. If you are a good coach, you need to be able to both recruit players that can play in your system and also coach them up to win games.

Carmody had an offensive system that allowed his less-talented players to maximize their potential, but their peak was the NIT due to an inability to coach up defense and a lackadaisical approach to recruiting. He was never able to get more than one headline player in a class, and therefore never had the depth required to truly contend in the conference. At other schools, he likely would've been fired following the 8-22 record in his 8th season, but he got a second chance that lead to 4 NITs in a row.

Collins has a defensive system that has allowed his less-talented players to maximize their potential, and 3 times he has done what no other Northwestern coach had ever done. Collins had recruiting misses after his first class that nearly threatened to cut his time short at NU, but a second chance led to back-to-back Tourney bids and has set things up for the future.

I can't see any way in which Collins is not a better coach than Carmody or that he is not the greatest coach in Northwestern history based on what he has accomplished.

 

[SDakaGordie]

Really? You will never give our players credit.
You never do.

Given Cappy won’t cap some of the ridiculous mistruths:

Players play. Anyone who knows anything about basketball knows that’s really what matters. To think I don’t give credit to players assumes I know nothing about basketball. Please feel free to accuse me of that if you can go that low. And giving our coach a ton of credit does not infer, mean or imply I give the players no credit for the success of our program. From someone who has attended every NCAA game we’ve played, I’ll take direct issue with anyone who says I don’t support and credit our players.

 

[hdhntr1]

Coaching and recruiting are separate.
I see some people who are not willing to make that distinction.
That makes it impossible to discuss.

And for NCAA Basketball, it is not the definition that anyone else uses. If you cannot get them to play for you,, you cannot coach them up to do anything

 

[eastbaycat99]

Collins has a defensive system that has allowed his less-talented players to maximize their potential, and 3 times he has done what no other Northwestern coach had ever done.

Cappy, I think Collins has had a defensive system that worked well the last three years. Prior to his recognition and recalibration at that point, Carmody and Collins had almost the same results, the only difference being the one trip to the NCAAs. I credit him for the realization that what he was doing was wrong and changing his defensive philosophy from Duke light (individual stops) to one that creates leverage points like the post double. Willingness to change is a real talent, and it is great to see him grow in his tenure at NU.

 

[hdhntr1]

I'm not capping it, this discussion is fine, in the sense that there is reasonably respectful debate back and forth.

I have my own thoughts as far as metrics go on this:

Kenpom "A" games record: Carmody 23-132, 14.8%; Collins 37-127, 22.6%
Kenpom "B" games record: Carmody 35-42, 45.5%; Collins 38-44, 46.3%
Kenpom rest of games record: Carmody 134-36, 78.8%; Collins 118-17, 87.4%
Conference/BTT games record: Carmody 75-163, 31.5%; Collins 91-152, 37.4%
NCAA Tourney record: Carmody 0-0, N/A; Collins 3-3, 50.0%
Top-half conference finishes: Carmody 1; Collins 3
Top-50 offenses: Carmody 4; Collins 1
Top-50 defenses: Carmody 1; Collins 6
1st-team all B1G players: Carmody 2 (Jitim Young, John Shurna); Collins 1 (Boo Buie)

In my opinion, you cannot separate recruiting from coaching. If you are a good coach, you need to be able to both recruit players that can play in your system and also coach them up to win games.

Carmody had an offensive system that allowed his less-talented players to maximize their potential, but their peak was the NIT due to an inability to coach up defense and a lackadaisical approach to recruiting. He was never able to get more than one headline player in a class, and therefore never had the depth required to truly contend in the conference. At other schools, he likely would've been fired following the 8-22 record in his 8th season, but he got a second chance that lead to 4 NITs in a row.

Collins has a defensive system that has allowed his less-talented players to maximize their potential, and 3 times he has done what no other Northwestern coach had ever done. Collins had recruiting misses after his first class that nearly threatened to cut his time short at NU, but a second chance led to back-to-back Tourney bids and has set things up for the future.

I can't see any way in which Collins is not a better coach than Carmody or that he is not the greatest coach in Northwestern history based on what he has accomplished.

While I agree with most of this, not sure that you can say greatest coach in NU history. In the last 50 years, absolutely but in history? Lonborg had a pretty impressive record including winning a national championship and numerous winning BIG seasons. He would have made it to a number of NCAA tourneys but the rules were quite different allowing only the BIG Champion into the tourney and there was no tourney when he won it all. Potentially Rohr and Glass might even have an argument as both had better BIG records. (I was there for the end of Glass's tenure)

 

[EagerFan]

I'm not capping it, this discussion is fine, in the sense that there is reasonably respectful debate back and forth.

I have my own thoughts as far as metrics go on this:

Kenpom "A" games record: Carmody 23-132, 14.8%; Collins 37-127, 22.6%
Kenpom "B" games record: Carmody 35-42, 45.5%; Collins 38-44, 46.3%
Kenpom rest of games record: Carmody 134-36, 78.8%; Collins 118-17, 87.4%
Conference/BTT games record: Carmody 75-163, 31.5%; Collins 91-152, 37.4%
NCAA Tourney record: Carmody 0-0, N/A; Collins 3-3, 50.0%
Top-half conference finishes: Carmody 1; Collins 3
Top-50 offenses: Carmody 4; Collins 1
Top-50 defenses: Carmody 1; Collins 6
1st-team all B1G players: Carmody 2 (Jitim Young, John Shurna); Collins 1 (Boo Buie)

In my opinion, you cannot separate recruiting from coaching. If you are a good coach, you need to be able to both recruit players that can play in your system and also coach them up to win games.

Carmody had an offensive system that allowed his less-talented players to maximize their potential, but their peak was the NIT due to an inability to coach up defense and a lackadaisical approach to recruiting. He was never able to get more than one headline player in a class, and therefore never had the depth required to truly contend in the conference. At other schools, he likely would've been fired following the 8-22 record in his 8th season, but he got a second chance that lead to 4 NITs in a row.

Collins has a defensive system that has allowed his less-talented players to maximize their potential, and 3 times he has done what no other Northwestern coach had ever done. Collins had recruiting misses after his first class that nearly threatened to cut his time short at NU, but a second chance led to back-to-back Tourney bids and has set things up for the future.

I can't see any way in which Collins is not a better coach than Carmody or that he is not the greatest coach in Northwestern history based on what he has accomplished.

I like all of this except...

I'm not sure there is evidence that Carmody's recruiting was "lackadaisical". The evidence is that he wasn't good at it, and there are plenty of hints that he absolutely didn't like doing it, but he never struck me as being careless or lazy in his professional capacity as head coach.

Other than that quibble, I think your analysis is spot on (meaning of course that I agree with you so you must be correct!).

I do worry about this next year as a transition year that could go awry if enough of the freshmen aren't able to get up to speed by December.

 

[CappyNU]

I like all of this except...

I'm not sure there is evidence that Carmody's recruiting was "lackadaisical". The evidence is that he wasn't good at it, and there are plenty of hints that he absolutely didn't like doing it, but he never struck me as being careless or lazy in his professional capacity as head coach.

Other than that quibble, I think your analysis is spot on (meaning of course that I agree with you so you must be correct!).

I do worry about this next year as a transition year that could go awry if enough of the freshmen aren't able to get up to speed by December.

It's possible my view was colored by Teddy Greenstein's coverage of Frank Kaminsky's recruitment: https://www.chicagotribune.com/2015...-kaminsky-worked-his-way-to-unlikely-stardom/

But I also remember that our recruiting sucked until Hardy was hired.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Cappy, I think Collins has had a defensive system that worked well the last three years. Prior to his recognition and recalibration at that point, Carmody and Collins had almost the same results, the only difference being the one trip to the NCAAs. I credit him for the realization that what he was doing was wrong and changing his defensive philosophy from Duke light (individual stops) to one that creates leverage points like the post double. Willingness to change is a real talent, and it is great to see him grow in his tenure at NU.

Collins D system was in place the first season he took over. That was a solid defensive team imo. The upset against Wisconsin really is exhibit A for Collins defense first mentality.

We saw plenty of post doubles with Lumpkin and Pardon.

 

[eastbaycat99]

Collins D system was in place the first season he took over. That was a solid defensive team imo. The upset against Wisconsin really is exhibit A for Collins defense first mentality.

We saw plenty of post doubles with Lumpkin and Pardon

His first team beat Wisconsin at home giving up about 55 after losing at Madison while giving up 76. It was inconsistent on defense, and I believe ( as I said before) that at that point he relied more on winning individual matchups on defense rather than systematic points of advantage. With respect to Lumpkin/pardon doubles, my take was that Lumpkin was a smart defender, not that the system called for the doubles. The Cats have had some good nights on defense throughout Collins’ tenure, but the last 3 years have had consistency.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

His first team beat Wisconsin at home giving up about 55 after losing at Madison while giving up 76. It was inconsistent on defense, and I believe ( as I said before) that at that point he relied more on winning individual matchups on defense rather than systematic points of advantage. With respect to Lumpkin/pardon doubles, my take was that Lumpkin was a smart defender, not that the system called for the doubles. The Cats have had some good nights on defense throughout Collins’ tenure, but the last 3 years have had consistency.

🧙🏾‍♀️

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

His first team beat Wisconsin at home giving up about 55 after losing at Madison while giving up 76. It was inconsistent on defense, and I believe ( as I said before) that at that point he relied more on winning individual matchups on defense rather than systematic points of advantage. With respect to Lumpkin/pardon doubles, my take was that Lumpkin was a smart defender, not that the system called for the doubles. The Cats have had some good nights on defense throughout Collins’ tenure, but the last 3 years have had consistency.

@CappyNU what years did Collins have top 50 defenses?

Also the Lumpkin pardon doubles were 100% part of the system. He gave Lumpkin the freedom to mix up the doubles because he was an intelligent defender. Also the heavy switching man defense was run very well Lumpkin, Law, and Lindsey

 

[hdhntr1]

If I were choosing metrics, I'd probably look at conference winning percentage.
Aggregate numbers like "Wins in a Season" don't matter - teams play more games now.
"All Time Wins" - the more years you coach, the more wins you get. Not really a good metric.

I said earlier that I thought Carmody was a good coach who struggled to recruit players.
Do you disagree?
Its got nothing to do with Collins - in fact you were the one who made it about Collins.
And I said Collins was a much better recruiter, with better facilities.
Do you disagree?

And in that Lonborg wins going away

 

[hdhntr1]

Some guy from the 1910’s.

It was actually a guy that was here from the 1920's through 1950

 

[SDakaGordie]

Talk about an improper comparison - basketball has changed a bit since the 50s, never mind the 20s.

 

[CappyNU]

@CappyNU what years did Collins have top 50 defenses?

2013-14 (first year, Carmody's players/recruits)
2016-17 (first tourney)
2018-19 (Law, Pardon senior years, pre-injury Gaines)
2020-21 (COVID year, B1G heavily overrated)
2022-23 (2nd tourney year)
This year so far.

Last year just missed out - 54th.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

It was actually a guy that was here from the 1920's through 1950

Dennis Grady is referenced as NU’s best Coach in post #22.

 

[eastbaycat99]

2013-14 (first year, Carmody's players/recruits)
2016-17 (first tourney)
2018-19 (Law, Pardon senior years, pre-injury Gaines)
2020-21 (COVID year, B1G heavily overrated)
2022-23 (2nd tourney year)
This year so far.

Last year just missed out - 54th.

So, Cappy, the last 3 years have had a consistently well rated defense?