Best QB ever to wear Purple
- Thread starter BigNUFan51
- Start date
In his defense how well you do in the pros has no affect in what you did in your college career. Colter was extremely effective with venric on the read option. Not saying he's a top 5 qb of NU. If we are talking Qb's I've seen 1 is Persa easy but then again I can only remember back to Bacher.
What does that have to do with how Trevor played in his sophomore year at NU? Maybe I am missing something. ECat constantly says Trevor should have played full time. We went 10 and 3 in 2012 (pretty good by NU standards). We lost to Penn State and Nebraska and Trevor took the vast majority of the snaps in those two games and did not play well. We also lost to Michigan but that was definitely not either quarterbacks fault. If Trevor took all the snaps, would we have somehow done better? Would he have not played poorly against Penn State and Nebraska. Was Fitz supposed to keep playing him full-time when he went 21-36-135 and 15-35-115? I know there were lots of reasons for Trevor not playing well in those games but results matter when you are trying to win. I am sure Trevor would have been a better quarterback in 2013 if he had gotten all of the snaps in 2012 but I am not sure if the team would have done as well that year.
I don't think I have an opinion that matter when it comes to a top five, but I'll say that Baz is the only QB that I've truly loved to watch play. Baz with Herron in the backfield in 2004 and with TS in 2005...it was all just a thing of beauty, especially when you consider NU's defense was literally dead-last in FBS one of those years (I think 05), the offense basically had to stay on the field and score nonstop to keep us in games.
It bears mentioning the parallels between Baz and Thorson at this point - multi year starters, rought but decent first couple of years in the system...if Baz is any indication, I have very high hope for Thor over the next two years.
It bears mentioning the parallels between Baz and Thorson at this point - multi year starters, rought but decent first couple of years in the system...if Baz is any indication, I have very high hope for Thor over the next two years.
This is completely off topic but I always thought the quarterback most responsible for the Gator Bowl win was the Mississippi State quarterback. In retrospect, maybe they should have played Dak Prescott more. He's done o.k. for himself since then.
You needed to have been born to know how great Otto Graham was?
Yeah. They have heard about a guy named Lincoln, but cannot opine on how great a president he was.
In fairness, I and I suspect many others voted using the same qualifier stated in the OP--that we were voting based on QBs we have personally seen play. It is indisputable--and probably assumed by everyone--that Otto Graham is the greatest at NU in all time.
I've seen all but Graham in person many times and would only say that Persa in his junior season was the only one I felt was personally responsible for FIVE wins, all by less than a TD.
Having looked at the top QB's that have played for NU in this thread, I'm glad we have one playing now who has a chance to rewrite the record books in Clayton Thorson. The best is still ahead for this young man. Between Clayton and Justin, we have two home-grown boys who are thriving in a golden age for NU football.
I think our WRs will be fine next season. We will no doubt miss Carr, who was so clutch and caught everything thrown his way, but we have a good core of receivers/superbacks coming back along with some intriguing newcomers, especially Riley Lees.
The OL is more of a question, but in essence we will be only replacing one starter, Olson, who struggled at times. I feel whoever wins that RT spot will be as good as or better than Olson. With the rest of the line one year older, hopefully we'll see an improvement over this year.
Can't comment on all the guys, but I think Persa made the biggest difference for his team. He single handedly carried the team to victories before the achilles tear.
The thing is -there were many times when the read-option w/ Mark wasn't particularly effective (and w/o Mark, little chance), esp. when a long drive was needed in a crucial moment or (gasp!) when the 'Cats were playing against a good defense.
UM's Denard Robinson was a more dynamic runner than Colter and there would always be talk of Shoelace being a leading Heisman contender after the OOC schedule and into the early part of the B1G schedule (as DR put up huge nos rushing).
But the talk quickly died down after Michigan faced the heart of their B1G schedule and actually played teams with good defenses.
Agreed - Persa was the most dangerous type of QB - an actual dual-threat QB (a QB who is adept at both passing and running, including passing while running to extend plays - so maybe should be called a triple-threat QB).
Too many so-called dual-threat QBs are great athletes/runners trying to play the QB position, as opposed to being natural QBs who just happen to also be top notch athletes.
Opposing defenses can dial up the pass rush against a QB when there isn't much threat from a run game or limit, if not stop the read-option if they play disciplined defense.
Otoh, a QB who can extend a play with his legs and still look to pass can force an opposing defense to send another defender to take away a big QB run, which in turn, makes it easier for a receiver to get open.
Not quite the same level, but if Siemian hadn't gotten injured against PU, the 'Cats would've beaten the Pumpkinheads and who knows - maybe would've had their 2nd bowl win earlier.
By the UM game (well, apparently, by the 4th Q), Siemian's foot/ankle injury had sufficiently healed enough for him to scramble, roll out, escape pressure, etc. - which totally added another dimension to the NU O and w/ a 6-6 record, likely would have had an easier opponent in a bowl game.
Siemian wasn't the runner that Persa was, but he did an alright facsimile, esp. since he was just as adept throwing accurately on the run.
And there's something to Fitz and the coaching staff having Siemian play thru ankle/foot injuries in back-to-back seasons rather than play another QB (kinda like Kubiak rushing Siemian back from his shoulder and later, his foot injury rather than play the Broncos 1st round pick).
Lenny is horribly underrated due to the teams that he played on, but LW was ahead of his time (would have been a great spread QB); still probably one of the best ever smack-talkers in the history of NU FB.
Also have stated numerous time that think Bacher is grossly under-rated, in large part due to his # of INTs (and W-L record), but the O was dependent on Bacher slinging it around and down the field and the more times a QB passes, the greater chances of getting INTs (see Kafka in the bowl game against Auburn).
If Bacher had a decent run game to back him up, his TD to INT ratio would have been a lot better.
Last edited:
You seem to have the same take on playing the QB position as many Broncos fans.
While the stat line was particularly impressive against PSU, Siemian's completion rate (58.3%) wasn't bad considering that PSU had one of the best pass rushes in the conference and the #s went south when Mark didn't play the 4th Q, so PSU was free to dial up the pass rush.
Look at how dOSU's JT Barrett fared against PSU this past season, in particular, in the 4th Q when dOSU was behind and had to pass which allowed PSU to dial up their pass rush.
Even before that point, the last 5 dOSU drives did basically nothing...
- 6 plays, 17 yds
- 6 plys, 12 yds
- 3 plys, 3 yds
- 11 plys, 59 yds (PSU TD on blocked FGA)
- 11 plays, 12 yds
And unlike Siemian, Barrett is surrounded by talent that will end up on NFL rosters and still had his RBs in the 4th Q (not to mention, Siemian had limited mobility due to his high ankle sprain).
The adjusted QBR for both QBs ended up being similar.
ADJ QBR
Siemian - 54.1
Barrett - 58.1
And speaking of Barrett, how exactly did he fare against Clemson's D in the semi play-off?
19 of 33 for 124 yds and 1 INT
Or for that matter, 2 other QBs who were having Heisman caliber seasons, including the Heisman winner.
Lamar Jackson (against LSU)
10 of 27 for 153 yds (37% completion rate)
The Heisman winner actually ended up closing out the season w/ 3 mediocre to incredibly bad performances in Louisville's 3 game losing streak to Houston, UK and LSU.
Jake Browning finished his season...
10 of 38 for 150 yds and 1 TD and 2 INTs
Clearly shows that it doesn't matter if one is a great college QB having a great season if his O-line isn't able to provide at least adequate protection.
Maybe Colter would have fared better against the PSU D, but I somehow doubt it, and Siemian didn't have the threat of Mark to help him out in the 4th, so it probably wouldn't have been pretty for Colter staking snaps w/o Mark as well.
As for the NEB game, the stats, again, weren't pretty, but Siemian still threw for 2 TDs and zero INTs.
Have to give credit to the NEB coaching staff, b/c they put together a great game plan to limit the NU O by having their DBs press and play physical against the NU receivers.
This didn't allow Siemian time to find an open receiver before the pass rush got to him.
And unlike in the PSU game, we don't have to wonder if Colter would have had similar results.
Colter ended up w/ a not insignificant 16 snaps (compared to the 35 for Siemian) - which resulted in 1 pass completion for 5 yds and 35 yds rushing on 14 carries (2.5 ypc).
If Colter had been more effective than Siemian in the NEB game, you don't think the coaching staff would have given more snaps to Colter (in being the hot hand)?
Could easily flip the script and argue that Colter wasn't exactly having a good game against UM (8 of 14 for 96 yds, 1 TD and 1 fumble).
Siemian came off the bench, passed for 2 TDs w/ his 2nd TD putting the 'Cats up late in the 4th Q.
Demetrius Dugar ended up intercepting Gardner in following UM drive and all the 'Cats had to do was to gain 2 1st downs to close out the game - which they ended up failing to do (the O just barely managed to get the first 1st down conversion).
UM gets the ball back and ties the game w/ a FG and in OT, scores a TD.
So time for the Colter/Mark read-option to step up, but they couldn't even get a 1st down.
Speaking of OT, the Colter/Mark duo failed to convert a 1st down in the OT session of the Iowa game the next season (where Colter had every snap under center but 1 - guess we should pin that loss on KC).
Another crucial point where the read-option O couldn't muster anything in a crucial moment.
In the dOSU game, TS got the lead back for the 'Cats in the 4th Q w/ a TD pass to CamD (which was after a TD run by Green was called back on a holding call).
dOSU countered w/ their own long TD drive, so it was up to the NU to respond w/ 3.48 left on the clock.
With Colter at the helm, the O was only able to garner 25 yds on 6 plays (and Colter had Mark in the backfield).
Just several examples where Colter had the opportunity to lead the 'Cats to a tie or win the game, but wasn't able to do so.
Would be unfair to pin the O's inability to garner much of anything on these drives on Colter - as one would have to take into account the protection up front and the game situation.
Altho, I would say, don't quite understand why the coaching staff went w/ Colter w/ less than 4 minutes left in the game, esp. as Siemian had just led the 'Cats on an 80 yd TD drive (maybe they were afraid of leaving too much time on the clock for dOSU, but that shouldn't have been as much of a concern as scoring and getting the lead back.
The dOSU game was probably closer than it should have been due to the dOSU coaches helping out.
For much of the game, dOSU had their DBs playing off the NU receivers, giving them a nice cushion.
While the NU receivers ended up having a nice game, that is pretty much the exact opposite of the way one should play the NU O; by giving the 'Cats receivers a cushion, it allowed Siemian to find open receivers and complete shorter passes before the dOSU pass rush got to him.
Most of the stuff, I covered above.
However, would say that I disagree w/ ECat on whether KC should have taken snaps at QB (if that is, indeed the way, ECat feels) as there were times when having a running QB was the better option.
My biggest issue probably was the way the QB rotation was handled - wasn't optimal to keep switching QBs and sometimes the coaching staff needed to just go w/ the hot hand.
Last edited:
Bacher had Sutton, Roberson, and Conteh for three years...much better RB talent than what Kafka had. Having observed CJ a lot in person where I could see the coverage, CJ had a maddening habit of chucking it up for grabs or into double coverage in crucial situations. His pick in the 2008 Indiana game, when a FG would have ultimately won the game for us, was just horrible. So were the hand grenades he tossed against Michigan in 2007 that allowed Michigan to regain and pad the lead.
Last edited:
One thing that a lot of people don't remember is that Bacher took a pounding behind a below-average offensive line. He stood in the pocket and made throws even when he knew he would get hammered. So yes, he ended up making some bad throws but he also made a lot of key plays that won games. It was that live-by-the-sword, die-by-the-sword mentality that made him so entertaining (and at times maddening) to watch and enabled him to finish #3 in career yardage and TDs. He also had the single best season in 2007 for passing yardage. Sutton was also injured a lot and never had a season like his freshman year, and NU didn't have a consistent run game under McGee, it seemed we were always a throw-first offense as Katatonic alluded to. McCall came in before Bacher's senior year and instilled a bit more balance to the offense. Bacher and his class could've stamped their place in NU history by beating Missouri to break the bowl loss string, but it wasn't meant to be, losing Wootton in that game was a big loss, and of course the Chase Daniel's Mom factor was too big to overcome. The 9 wins that season was the high water mark for Fitz in his young career to that point.
Most of the stuff, I covered above.
However, would say that I disagree w/ ECat on whether KC should have taken snaps at QB (if that is, indeed the way, ECat feels) as there were times when having a running QB was the better option.
My biggest issue probably was the way the QB rotation was handled - wasn't optimal to keep switching QBs and sometimes the coaching staff needed to just go w/ the hot hand.[/QUOTE]
You are just way, way too defensive about Trevor. I was never trying to get into a series by series analysis of the quarterback play. Trevor was a huge reason why we won several of those games in 2012 and I have never disputed that. As I indicated in my post, there were lots of reasons why Trevor didn't play well against Penn State and Nebraska. But Trevor also wasn't fully developed in his sophomore year (understandably) and had his ups and downs (he was generally spectacular coming in cold off the bench). Nebraska had one of the worst passing defenses in the conference and Trevor did not play well. I was there and he was not sharp. I really believe that we would have had a better chance if we had tried to run the ball more often in the second half. But that was not the point of my post. The point of my post was that we won 10 games that year and playing Trevor full-time was not going to win us any more games. There were definitely times when I didn't understand why Colter or Trevor got pulled. My bigger criticism, though, was how predictable we would be at times with both quarterbacks. But, again, we won 10 games so it's hard to argue to much with the approach or the execution.
As for the Ohio State game, you left off the part where Trevor threw the interception to put Ohio State up in the 4th quarter and that he was sacked 5 times. And we were driving the ball at the end of the game. If Kain doesn't fumble the snap on 4th and less than 1 on the Ohio State 34 yard line, we certainly get another first down. I thought he got it anyway. I would have understood if they put Trevor in for that drive, but Kain was moving the team.
And let's not blame the offense for the loss against Michigan. The did everything they needed to do to win that game. They got enough first downs at the end of regulation to run down the clock.
Neither quarterback was perfect. Kain certainly struggled when teams stopped the option. Trevor played poorly at times against bad defenses as well. He did not play well against an absolutely awful Cal defense in the second half of the 2013 game when he was perfectly healthy and got all of the snaps. He kept Cal in that game. Our defense and running game won that game. Again, though, not the point of my post.
However, would say that I disagree w/ ECat on whether KC should have taken snaps at QB (if that is, indeed the way, ECat feels) as there were times when having a running QB was the better option.
My biggest issue probably was the way the QB rotation was handled - wasn't optimal to keep switching QBs and sometimes the coaching staff needed to just go w/ the hot hand.[/QUOTE]
You are just way, way too defensive about Trevor. I was never trying to get into a series by series analysis of the quarterback play. Trevor was a huge reason why we won several of those games in 2012 and I have never disputed that. As I indicated in my post, there were lots of reasons why Trevor didn't play well against Penn State and Nebraska. But Trevor also wasn't fully developed in his sophomore year (understandably) and had his ups and downs (he was generally spectacular coming in cold off the bench). Nebraska had one of the worst passing defenses in the conference and Trevor did not play well. I was there and he was not sharp. I really believe that we would have had a better chance if we had tried to run the ball more often in the second half. But that was not the point of my post. The point of my post was that we won 10 games that year and playing Trevor full-time was not going to win us any more games. There were definitely times when I didn't understand why Colter or Trevor got pulled. My bigger criticism, though, was how predictable we would be at times with both quarterbacks. But, again, we won 10 games so it's hard to argue to much with the approach or the execution.
As for the Ohio State game, you left off the part where Trevor threw the interception to put Ohio State up in the 4th quarter and that he was sacked 5 times. And we were driving the ball at the end of the game. If Kain doesn't fumble the snap on 4th and less than 1 on the Ohio State 34 yard line, we certainly get another first down. I thought he got it anyway. I would have understood if they put Trevor in for that drive, but Kain was moving the team.
And let's not blame the offense for the loss against Michigan. The did everything they needed to do to win that game. They got enough first downs at the end of regulation to run down the clock.
Neither quarterback was perfect. Kain certainly struggled when teams stopped the option. Trevor played poorly at times against bad defenses as well. He did not play well against an absolutely awful Cal defense in the second half of the 2013 game when he was perfectly healthy and got all of the snaps. He kept Cal in that game. Our defense and running game won that game. Again, though, not the point of my post.
On Trevor I think we all can agree he didn't have the best career he could have had at NU. This wasn't his fault although it was hampered by injuries and a sub par receiving core and oline. He showed lots of potential and I think we were finally seeing him hit it and become dominant during the 4th quarter of that U of M game. Then the injury kinda screwed with that. I remember being so excited thinking he's finally healthy, then boom.
I think I remember the announcer (Collinsworth) on Trevor's NFL starting debut saying that his game vs. ND is what put him on Denver's radar. He was magnificent in that one!
Sure, CJ had some great games, but he also made some horrible decisions and he wasn't always under heavy pressure when he made them. I still have nightmares of his throw into double coverage against Indiana at the goal line with his receiver completely covered when all we needed was a FG to win the game. I was right there on the 10-yard line saying to myself "Don't...don't...don't...NO!...#$%@"
Sure, CJ had some great games. His TD throw to Peterman in the Alamo Bowl was beautiful to see from my vantage point. But he also made some horrible decisions and he wasn't always under heavy pressure when he made them. I still have nightmares of his throw into double coverage against Indiana at the goal line with his receiver completely covered when all we needed was a FG to win the game. I was right there on the 10-yard line saying to myself "Don't...don't...don't throw it...NO!...#%@#!!!" Indiana went on to win 21-19 for their only Big Ten win of the season.
Last edited:
CJ threw some bad passes, but I don't think those define his career or his place in the ranks of top NU quarterbacks when you look at his overall body of work. Brady had a pretty bad pick-6 in the Super Bowl, don't know why he threw it there when another receiver was open. CJ was no Brady but he was one of the best QB's in NU history.
I guess I'm scarred for life from that throw against Indiana. Kafka's 20 yard backward lateral was a better throw. CJ was a gunslinger, though, and he did have a two game stretch where he threw for 990 yards and 9 TD's w/out an int. for two come from behind wins.
Kafka had some good highlights. That 100 yard pick-6 in the Outback Bowl against Auburn was a doozy. What a game that was, Kafka passing 47-78 for 532 yds, 4 TD, 5 INT. I think that group of receivers was one of the best in NU history with Markshausen, Brewer, Dunsmore, Ebert, Stewart, and D Fields. Also missed a chance to break the bowl loss string.
That was 12 seconds of pain, particularly when that hot dog high-stepped it the last 15 yards into the endzone! It was nice to see him, later on, get trucked by Drake Dunsmore on his long TD catch.
I think we might have won more than 10 games with Siemian playing more behind center, Colter at WR, and Colter behind center in Wildcat situations (short yardage and inside the 10 yard line).
Great, we were 10-3. Largely because of the D if you ask me. We were ok on Offense. I think we would have been better with an NFL starting QB throwing to a guy whose only shot at the League was as a WR. Instead, we had one of our best players sitting on the bench and another playing in a position that wasn't his most effective.
My opinion only. I guess we will never know what would have happened -- and don't point to Trevor's senior year when he had a different array of weapons and played hurt for most of year -- unless you want to look at his game against Illinois and ND when he had recovered.
I hate to keep bringing us back to reality but he was the only quarterback to throw a pass against Penn State (and he threw for 135 yards on 36 attempts) and he took the vast majority of the snaps against Nebraska (15 for 35 for 115). I guess we could have put up 40 points against Michigan with him starting but, again, the offense put us in a position to absolutely win that game. I think there was a better chance we lose one of the other games if he takes all of the snaps. My opinion as well. There is a lot to be said for running the ball if the other team can't stop you (like against Iowa and Minnesota).
