Chris Emma Reporting That NU Continues To Recruit Kipper Nichols

[hdhntr1]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

Turner was likely able to get a different kind of scholarship. Do you see Ajou seeing many minutes going forward? He is getting some in garbage time. How about Liberman? Abrahamson? Just asking.

But if people are right and Lumpkin is more of a 3,... Lumpkin might be a glue guy who works hard, plays good D and rebounds, But how many minutes would he get at that position if he cannot put up some points when he is fighting for minutes with the likes of Law and Lindsey? That is assuming Ash gets minutes at the two pushing Lindsey to the three. At the 4 we will also have depth taking away from his minutes there. He may still get minutes next year but the following year... Since he has already RS, I can see him staying next year, getting his degree and then moving on as a 5th year as he could play right away. Little point of his moving before then as he would not b able to play anyway.

 

[Styre]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

I have absolutely no problem with a coach having an honest conversation with a player about his future with the team. As long as the player is aware that he is completely free to stay with the program if he so chooses, and will have his scholarship honored for as long as he remains, I have no issue with a coach telling a player he's most likely not going to see much playing time going forward. That way the player can make his own decision about whether to transfer.

Also, I don't think the coach's recruiting pitch matters very much. It sucks, but sometimes you recruit a guy you think is going to be a star and you find out he can't get out of his own way. Should the coach be obligated to give that player significant minutes because that's what he expected when the player was in high school? It's one thing to commit to a four-year scholarship; it's quite another to commit to making the team worse.

 

[hdhntr1]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

I agree that I do not think there would be any reason for Lumpkin to leave this year. He would have to sit out a year and would only have one year left. I also see him getting minutes next year (maybe not as many as this year but still quite a few) . But the following year, when the new guys get some experience, unless he can start filling the net, he could be passed up. He would then be able to get his degree, transfer and get a chance to play right away.

If someone was to chose to leave after this season, it would be likely to be someone else.

 

[NJCat83588]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

FWIW, Abrahamson isn't getting minutes because he has to sit out a year after transferring....................

 

[DocCatsFan]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

Originally posted by hdhntr1:
I agree that I do not think there would be any reason for Lumpkin to leave this year. He would have to sit out a year and would only have one year left. I also see him getting minutes next year (maybe not as many as this year but still quite a few) . But the following year, when the new guys get some experience, unless he can start filling the net, he could be passed up. He would then be able to get his degree, transfer and get a chance to play right away.

If someone was to chose to leave after this season, it would be likely to be someone else.

Yes, the guy who might "choose" to leave will not be Sanjay.

 

[thewildcat2011]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

You know something, Doc?

 

[DocCatsFan]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

Originally posted by thewildcat2011:
You know something, Doc?

Maybe, but I'm not telling Turk.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

all you have to do is look at the track record and amount of kids who left Duke over the years to know this is not new. when there is a talent upgrade in a program its bound to happen.

its not hard to see who is not playing and who may be looking for a better playing opportunity. and that doesn't mean anyone is forcing anyone else out.

believe it or not people do attend school to play basketball and not just get an education. and when they are not playing they look elsewhere.

 

[thewildcat2011]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

Northwestern scoop, good or bad, goes directly to Turk, Doc. You know the rules.

 

[Styre]

Yep. There was a lot of pearl-clutching around here when half the roster transferred after Collins arrived, but that's simply what real, big-time programs look like. Honestly I thought that was one of the most encouraging signs about the hire at the time.

 

[IGNORE2]

I suppose the one unspoken name on this thread is Vasser. I didn't understand why CCC burned his shirt and played him sparingly. I could understand it leading to a rift. But there is no true PG in the system except Vasser (remember Mac was recruited as a lead guard). With no PG in the next class, Vasser's departure would leave a big gap, especially after next year. One Mac injury away from another freshman PG.

Haywood - your back. How about a little incite? Are they really still chasing Kipper and know someone is on the way out, or are things kosher in CCC land?

 

[EvanstonCat]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

Originally posted by DocCatsFan:

Originally posted by JournCat:
Fitz has acknowledged that players and their families read this board, so figure that holds true for basketball. Doesn't seem like good form to suggest that a player should read the writing on the wall and leave NU. But Chris Emma's tweet opened that discussion anyway. (Not criticizing Chris for it, just saying that the rumor was already out there.)

Lumpkin and Tap are good rotation players who have made the difference in big wins for us. They are not guys I would chase away from the program.

And herein lies the issue. NOBODY should be chased away from the program to "upgrade". When kids are offered a scholarship, the university is making a 4 or 5 year commitment to them. As long as they do what they are supposed to do, work hard, do what is required of them, and stay academically in good standing they stay. Otherwise we are no different from scumbags like Tom Crean who "chase kids away from the program" in order to replace them with a guy who might be better. The better guys come as others graduate. That's the way we need to operate. I don't know how others feel, but I would not be able to support a program that chases kids away who do nothing wrong.

Depends on what you call "chasing away." I don't think Collins will force anyone to leave the program unless they aren't exhibiting the right attitudes or doing what is expected (as was the case with Turner, as I understand). But, what do you call it when he is frank with a kid and tells him what the role and minutes a kid will play will be very limited and well below what the kid would like to see? Is that chasing the kid off? I call it honesty - the kid can decide (as Kale and Ajou did) to leave and seek greener pastures. I honestly have no problem with that as long as the kid ultimately decides whether he is fine with the limited role and wants to stay (and do the work) or if he'd rather leave. That to me is not running a kid off.

Also, this is another reason you redshirt sparingly. We have limited scholarships in hoops. You need EVERYONE to be a contributor. If they aren't going to contribute at a high level, then you need to cycle them through ASAP. Tying up a scholie for 5 years instead of 4 doesn't help.

 

[backdoorpass]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

Originally posted by EvanstonCat:


Also, this is another reason you redshirt sparingly. We have limited scholarships in hoops. You need EVERYONE to be a contributor. If they aren't going to contribute at a high level, then you need to cycle them through ASAP. Tying up a scholie for 5 years instead of 4 doesn't help.

I'm happy to say that I am in total agreement with EvanstonCat on redshirting in basketball. I am generally only in favor of redshirting when there is an injury/illness situation (e.g. Demps, Lumpkin, Eschmeyer) or the rare instance that a big man projects to be a future star but just isn't physically ready to compete in the B1G as a freshman (e.g. Brian Butch on Wisconsin).

This is not football where you have 85 scholarship players plus another 15 preferred walk-ons you and can spread guys out over 5 years. The guys who will be the best career basketball players are generally good enough to contribute as freshmen. And if guys are ready to be out there, by all means get them on the floor. For the guys that aren't really good enough to contribute as freshmen--you want to move them through the system faster, not slower.

I concede that there is the very rare Reggie Hearn or Collier Drayton that you wish you could have had on the court one more season. But you're handcuffing yourself if you try to plan for this and keep a Johnnie Vasser, for example, off the floor all season just in case you'll want the option of having him on the team 4.5 years from now. (You can imagine my reaction earlier this season when people on the board were suggesting that we should have redshirted Lindsey and Skelly!)







This post was edited on 2/25 1:29 AM by backdoorpass

 

[hdhntr1]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

I think it really depends. Wisconsin has been pretty successful in RSing. You do not have to ask them back for a 5th year. And most teams only play 8-10 guys. To me, if a kid is not going to get meaningful minutes but looks like he could later in his career because of physical development and/or a logjam at a difficult position to recruit for, RS is not the worst idea. Another reason is to balance out recruiting classes.

The reason Lindsey was a potential candidate originally is that he was coming off an injury and the thought was we would have a healthy Cobb and a logjam at the position. Never saw Skelly as a candidate. Vassar looked like a candidate as well with two other PGs on the roster, where was he going to get the minutes? RS one of them would have also stretched out the classes.

 

[and_go_cats]

Re: redshirting

I'm shocked by all the talk of "burning shirts" lately, as if these guys are going to be redshirted by default until they aren't. Pardon needs to redshirt...Falzon will redshirt now with the VT transfer coming....Vassar may redshirt as a soph (yes, actually saw that posted).

This isn't football, and it isn't a video game. Plus, Collins has actually said he's not looking to redshirt anyone (prior to this season, I believe) AND he followed that up by sticking to his comment this year and not redshirting anyone. Can we just drop this until there's any sign whatsoever that it's in the cards for anyone (outside of injury/illness or bigtime project, as said above)???

Also, everything reported indicates that Pardon is a viewed by the staff as a 5. Yes, he's 6'8 or 6'9, but he's big (and has a frame with room to grow) and he's got a crazy long wingspan.

 

[IGNORE2]

Re: redshirting

Got your point BUT... if you don't play, then you have red-shirted, yes? (And I may have been the one to suggest one possibility was a Vasser soph redshirt).

As we sit currently:

C Olah and either Skelly, vZ or undersized, no experience frosh in Pardon -- forget about calling it a RS. Do you play Pardon? Over Skelly, in place of any C minutes for vZ? How many minutes to you have him slated for in 2015-6?

PF - vZ, Taphorn, Skelly, Lumpkin, frosh Falzon - if Falzon is closer to frosh Lindsey than frosh Mac, do you play him? How many minutes? In place of?

Off guard - Lindsey, Demps, frosh Ash - again, if Ash is closer to frosh Lindsey than frosh Mac, do you play him? Both Lindsey and Demps command, deserve, high minutes. SF is already stacked with Law, Lindsey, Taphorn, Lumpkin - so you can't steal minutes for Lindsey except for the small amount already anticipated. Whatchya gonna do?

PG - Mac, Demps, Vasser -- You get 200 minutes. I think we can all agree that Mac, Lindesey, Law, Demps, Olah will easily consume 25+ mpg and 5 rotation spots. You know vZ will get a rotation spot and at least 15 mpg (probably more). With the final 2-3 rotation spots and

 

[and_go_cats]

Re: redshirting

Those are all great questions, xyzbobxyz. I have no idea how this will play out, but we'll certainly learn a lot about CC by the way he handles next year's roster.

My guess at a depth chart is below:

G - Mac, Vassar (I personally don't see Demps as a PG or "lead guard" - might even prefer him as 6th man again)
G - Demps/Ash/Lindsey
F - Law, Lindsey, Tap/Lumpkin
F - vZ (guessing here), Tap/Falzon
C - Olah, Pardon/Skelly/vZ

If Ash or Lindsey can take the 2, great (I might be wrong, but I think Ash will be really good and contribute early). Demps can return to playing almost-starter's minutes off the bench. Pardon/Skelly and Tap/Falzon would be my next off the bench at the 5 and 4, respectively. I love the flexibility of this roster as just about everyone can play multiple positions.

For all we know, Vassar will make significant strides. Imo, Demps and Olah could use more rest this year anyway, hopefully adding more value in slightly less minutes by being more efficient. Both can carry the team at times right now....or have off nights. I think Lumpkin could play less next year as he's passed by Law/Lindsey at the 3 and vZ/Tap/Falzon at the 4.

And for all I know we will see redshirts being used, wasn't trying to say it's never gonna happen. I just haven't seen any indication that Collins wants to use them. Maybe some guys will pull a Vassar next year - hopefully playing more in the non-conference schedule though - then being available in case of injuries and/or situational usage in the B10. They'll still need to practice hard and be prepared to play (unlike a redshirt), just might not happen yet.

That said, the fact that we continue to recruit Kipper Nichols is intriguing and the wild card here. No idea how that works out considering we're currently full. I guess we'll see....I'm excited though. I would think "Vassaring" is more common than we think at good programs (in addition to more turnover) - maybe we just need to get used to this since we have a coach that can recruit a top-to-bottom roster of B10 players now.

 

[NUCat320]

Re: Of all the low class things done and said on this board...

That's an important distinction, headhunter.

You can redshirt a kid, but the kid needs to know that his fifth year is not a guarantee. If you make that clear upfront, and put the player on a track to graduate in four years, then you've done him no wrong if, come the spring signing period, you've made him the 14th scholarship (which is to say, you've receuited over him.)

 

[backdoorpass]

Re: redshirting

Originally posted by xyzbobxyz:

But please, one of you so loudly harping on redshirts, please tell me how you see the minutes distributed next season in the absence of injury. I'm dying to see you spread 200 minutes meaningfully across 13 players.

A messageboard fan worries about how to evenly distribute minutes among 13 players for an entire season. A college basketball coach plays the 9-10 guys in any given game (33+ times per season) that gives him the best chance to win that game.

To plan for 1-2 guys to redshirt means that you are committing to never putting them on the floor at all. (The NCAA only allows for rare injury and sickness exceptions for guys who play even only a few minutes.)

Who knew that Taphorn would get a concussion and a foot injury? Who knew that Cobb would be as limited as he has been? What about when the flu hits the team in OOC play? What happens when a game goes into double-overtime and you are in foul trouble?

Deciding at the beginning of the season to redshirt Lindsey, for instance, would have meant that either CC didn't have a good backup option to go to... Or that he would have to "burn" Lindsey's shirt a couple months into the season, wasting valuable opportunities to get him playing experience earlier--and, more importantly, use him where/when he could have been useful to help win games.

I'm glad that Vasser was put in games a couple times as a change of pace guy and to help put on a full court press. It's what the team needed at the moment.

What this team needs most--above all else--is to win games. Winning games will help build immediate fan support, help with recruiting down the line, help retain guys who are already in the program and so on.

Redshirting is just part of the process for building a football program. In basketball, however, it's an available loophole to only use when you have an injured/suspended player or a serious big man project when you have the depth to afford the risk of playing a man short in your rotation.





This post was edited on 2/25 5:46 PM by backdoorpass

 

[FightNorthwestern]

Re: redshirting

Originally posted by xyzbobxyz:

But please, one of you so loudly harping on redshirts, please tell me how you see the minutes distributed next season in the absence of injury. I'm dying to see you spread 200 minutes meaningfully across 13 players.

I'm dying to know why you'd assume an absence of injury, as if there is any realistic chance of that happening.

 

[IGNORE2]

Re: redshirting

Because you cannot plan or predict who or when.

Listen, RS does mean you put a player on a shelf and he's gone. A guy sits on the bench, participates in practices, travels with team. If you need him, he goes to the desk and they buzz him in - shirt burned.

I'm saying that I would not 'Vasser' a player. A few meaningless minutes every 4-5 games does not add any appreciable experience worthy to sacrifice eligibility. But, if and when, the need arises due to injury or depth needs due to poor performance of another, you definitely run the kid out there.

So, if we eliminate the 'Vasser' role - how are you going to divy up 200 minutes? We all agree IF and WHEN an injury occurs everything changes - including handing out the minutes and rotation spot previously occupied by the injured.

I'll go further. If it is a position of depth and we are already running 9-10 deep (most teams go 8-9 deep), then I probably don't burn the shirt to cover the injury.

Also, if a guy shows in practice that he would be valuable right now such that he is Top 6-7 rotation - I definitely burn the shirt and put him in the rotation. Great example - Falzon. I would start the season expecting to RS him. If he displaces Taphorn at some point in practices (the player that I feel will play and is most similiar as a stretch 4), then Tap gets a seat on the end of the bench and Falzon is first forward off the bench for me. But if Tap and frosh Falzon are not too far apart, or Tap is better (probably due to experience and size) then Falzon remains on the bench in games and Tap is my first forward in.