Collins: Stay or Go Criteria

[peatymeanis]

Please, do not discuss recruiting without discussing Admissions. Your other points are sound. However, it all kind of goes back to recruiting. You don't become a blue blood program with Northwestern's admission's standards. No one does.

Nobody is asking for NU to become a blue blood. Collins has proven its possible to bring decently ranked recruits to Evanston. In fact he’s proven its possible to recruit a NCAA caliber team to Evanston. Carmody has previously proven its possible to discover diamonds in the rough that develop into all conference players.

Collins’ problem is that way too often his best recruits end up not being anywhere near as good as expected. It’s not an admissions problem (solely or primarily). It’s a talent identification problem.

 

[SDakaGordie]

What exactly has Collins gotten better at since he first arrived? Is his recruiting improved? No, his best classes were his first two. His in game tactics, adjustments, substitutions? No, many of his lineups are inexplicable and his teams are now notorious for turtling and blowing leads. His ability to develop his players? No, very few of his players vastly exceed their expectations coming in, with many being excruciatingly underwhelming.

Unless you are a blue blood program, your performance will be cyclical as your best players get mature. So therefore it’s important to understand where we are in the current cycle when evaluating. If Nance/Buie were sophomores currently, this year’s performance would be completely acceptable to me. Because you have your two best players with upside and two more years to put the pieces around them to make a run at the dance. However that’s not the current case - Nance is gone next year and although our freshmen look promising they will not replace Nance’s production. Therefore this year is the cycle peak. Next year we are on a downswing and then we are back to rebuilding in 2023 when Buie leaves. The peak of your program’s cycle flat out needs to be better than barely sneaking into the NIT as the best case.

Your arguments are generally sound but I just tend to disagree.

I don’t agree on player development on the whole. It’s been discussed many times so I won’t delve back into it (though Greer is just such a great example I cannot pass that up).

Recruiting is just different for us, and I wish I could believe we could markedly improve. But every year we fight to get who might be in our very limited candidate pool - how do you expect improvement? I just expect survival. And I expect busts at times; to use an insurance analogy - we are victims of adverse selection, given our pool is so limited.

I just don’t buy into CCC as a quack of a coach like so many think. I was never a huge fan of Coach K’s coaching, but I frankly think Collins runs better stuff. I think he’s also trying to commit to a style that will allow him to attract kids we have not in the past, and he’s rightfully not going to change that markedly. And his lineups this year are largely meant to leverage our depth, which we finally have. And great players win close games; not great coaches.

I also think we can’t look at just one year as the end all / be all of the program. Volatility is expected. So much depends on the competition as well. I wish this year were better, but this league is rough. Just look at Michigan dismantling Purdue. We are in every game, which has never happened. There’s a ton of pressure on these kids to win. It’s not going to come easily. And I am still optimistic about next year’s team being just as good, maybe better.

I expected 10 wins and we still have a decent chance at that.

 

[hoosboot]

Volatility is expected.

You keep bringing this idea up, but it's not reflected in the results. You may be expected it, but there is precious little actual volatility. That's the problem. I suspect people would be more accepting if there was a bunch of highs and a bunch of lows in CCC's nine seasons. But, so far, there's been just one (terrific, really sweet) season of high and six truly terrible seasons of low, and one middling season of coulda that didn't result in post-season play. That's not volatile. That's consistency.

Again, that's why this season is so important. Gotta get to the NIT so that there can actually be some volatility.

 

[stpaulcat]

Nobody is asking for NU to become a blue blood. Collins has proven its possible to bring decently ranked recruits to Evanston. In fact he’s proven its possible to recruit a NCAA caliber team to Evanston. Carmody has previously proven its possible to discover diamonds in the rough that develop into all conference players.

Collins’ problem is that way too often his best recruits end up not being anywhere near as good as expected. It’s not an admissions problem (solely or primarily). It’s a talent identification problem.

If you are at or near the top of the B1G, you are a blue blood, and that is what many are asking for. The B1G is the best basketball conference in the country, is it not?

 

[SDakaGordie]

You keep bringing this idea up, but it's not reflected in the results. You may be expected it, but there is precious little actual volatility. That's the problem. I suspect people would be more accepting if there was a bunch of highs and a bunch of lows in CCC's nine seasons. But, so far, there's been just one (terrific, really sweet) season of high and six truly terrible seasons of low, and one middling season of coulda that didn't result in post-season play. That's not volatile. That's consistency.

Again, that's why this season is so important. Gotta get to the NIT so that there can actually be some volatility.

Fair points. It’s a bit lopsided in one direction right now. I just see reasons to allow this to become less lopsided rather than fire him.

 

[hoosboot]

Fair points. It’s a bit lopsided in one direction right now. I just see reasons to allow this to become less lopsided rather than fire him.

I agree. I can't see him being fired absent losing out or all but one of the remaining four games against the bottom of the conference. Even then, it seems unlikely.

 

[peatymeanis]

If you are at or near the top of the B1G, you are a blue blood, and that is what many are asking for. The B1G is the best basketball conference in the country, is it not?

lol literally nobody is asking for NU to be at the top of the B1G. Here’s what I’m asking - for every 4 year cycle, we have: 1 rebuilding year, 2 NIT years, 1 tourney year. Is that too much to ask?

 

[hoosboot]

lol literally nobody is asking for NU to be at the top of the B1G. Here’s what I’m asking - for every 4 year cycle, we have: 1 rebuilding year, 2 NIT years, 1 tourney year. Is that too much to ask?

Probably too much to ask, but I think most people would be ecstatic with 2 rebuilding years, 1 NIT year, and 1 tourney year.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Probably too much to ask, but I think most people would be ecstatic with 2 rebuilding years, 1 NIT year, and 1 tourney year.

It would be the best 4 year stretch in history!

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Please, do not discuss recruiting without discussing Admissions. Your other points are sound. However, it all kind of goes back to recruiting. You don't become a blue blood program with Northwestern's admission's standards. No one does.

You literally need two high school seniors and one guy from the transfer portal.

It isn't that tough.

 

[stpaulcat]

You literally need two high school seniors and one guy from the transfer portal.

It isn't that tough.

One would think so.

 

[hoosboot]

It would be the best 4 year stretch in history!

It would be, although I guess some could quibble that the four consecutive NIT appearances were similarly impressive. Depends on whether you are a consistency or a floor/ceiling person, I guess. I'd rather have a couple of rebuilding years if it meant an NCAA tourney invite.

But imagine if the team was merely an NIT team the year after the NCAA run. Then we are talking about a ten year run where the Cats make the postseason 60% of the time. That's the foundation for something and then the possibility of an NIT run this year would carry a lot more weight.

The Cats were poised to change the narrative and then unfortunately...didn't.

 

[Sec.112]

You literally need two high school seniors and one guy from the transfer portal.

It isn't that tough.

Do you know how many years Carmody openly made a reference to Troy Murphy as a single player that can turn things around? "All we need is our Troy Murphy."

Still waiting.

You guys that act as if this is a snap-of-the-fingers easy aren't dealing with the reality or the demonstrated history.

If you want to discount admissions as a primary challenge, let me remind you about Kevin O'Neill - the one guy who has experienced and openly talked about this. On the way to the Knicks, he told his buddy David Kaplan live on the air that only 10 out of the top 100 have a chance to get accepted to NU. So let's be generous and call it 25% of the top 100. That's 50 of the top 200.

Now, out of those 50, how many will realistically consider NU? Now we're optimistically down to 25. Out of those 25 how many:

* Will want warm weather?
* Think they can be pros and dump NU?
* Want a campus rather than a city?
* Are happy riding the bench on an NCAA team rather than playing at NU.
* Are more concerned about their game than academics?
* Now have NIL mentioned to them? Think NIL wasn't mentioned to Brumbaugh by Texas?

So you're probably looking at 10 of the top 200 every year. And then recruiting starts.

If you don't understand the admissions handicap especially in the scope of the B10, you're doomed to go out, get the flavor-of-the-year coach, and never find the right guy.

 

[Catreporter]

The NIT is the nobody notices tournament. Doesn't even move the needle with most fans, especially in a big market like Chicago. Let's just enjoy what has been a frustrating at times, but very competitive, basketball season in a tough league. CCC ain't going anywhere this year.

 

[hoosboot]

The NIT is the nobody notices tournament. Doesn't even move the needle with most fans, especially in a big market like Chicago. Let's just enjoy what has been a frustrating at times, but very competitive, basketball season in a tough league. CCC ain't going anywhere this year.

You think NU making the NIT or not doesn't change anything?

 

[wildcatpn]

Do you know how many years Carmody openly made a reference to Troy Murphy as a single player that can turn things around? "All we need is our Troy Murphy."

Still waiting.

You guys that act as if this is a snap-of-the-fingers easy aren't dealing with the reality or the demonstrated history.

If you want to discount admissions as a primary challenge, let me remind you about Kevin O'Neill - the one guy who has experienced and openly talked about this. On the way to the Knicks, he told his buddy David Kaplan live on the air that only 10 out of the top 100 have a chance to get accepted to NU. So let's be generous and call it 25% of the top 100. That's 50 of the top 200.

Now, out of those 50, how many will realistically consider NU? Now we're optimistically down to 25. Out of those 25 how many:

* Will want warm weather?
* Think they can be pros and dump NU?
* Want a campus rather than a city?
* Are happy riding the bench on an NCAA team rather than playing at NU.
* Are more concerned about their game than academics?
* Now have NIL mentioned to them? Think NIL wasn't mentioned to Brumbaugh by Texas?

So you're probably looking at 10 of the top 200 every year. And then recruiting starts.

If you don't understand the admissions handicap especially in the scope of the B10, you're doomed to go out, get the flavor-of-the-year coach, and never find the right guy.

Kevin O'Neill coached here 22 years ago. You have no idea if the admissions standards are exactly the same as when he coached here. Maybe they are. Who knows? Kevin O'Neill is also known as a pretty awful person so not sure anyone should believe anything he says.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

Probably true. Maybe he needs a white shirt and purple tie. I swear, I try and find him and can’t do it after that first presentation.

He's a blur of such motion and activity he's nearly invisible the naked eye!

 

[AdamOnFirst]

lol literally nobody is asking for NU to be at the top of the B1G. Here’s what I’m asking - for every 4 year cycle, we have: 1 rebuilding year, 2 NIT years, 1 tourney year. Is that too much to ask?

Probably too much to ask. 1 NCAA trip every 4 years would be tremendous by itself regardless of the other years. I hope for 2 NCAAs a decade with several NITs mixed in.

 

[peatymeanis]

You guys that act as if this is a snap-of-the-fingers easy aren't dealing with the reality or the demonstrated history.

If you want to discount admissions as a primary challenge, let me remind you about Kevin O'Neill - the one guy who has experienced and openly talked about this. On the way to the Knicks, he told his buddy David Kaplan live on the air that only 10 out of the top 100 have a chance to get accepted to NU. So let's be generous and call it 25% of the top 100. That's 50 of the top 200.

Now, out of those 50, how many will realistically consider NU? Now we're optimistically down to 25. Out of those 25 how many:

* Will want warm weather?
* Think they can be pros and dump NU?
* Want a campus rather than a city?
* Are happy riding the bench on an NCAA team rather than playing at NU.
* Are more concerned about their game than academics?
* Now have NIL mentioned to them? Think NIL wasn't mentioned to Brumbaugh by Texas?

So you're probably looking at 10 of the top 200 every year. And then recruiting starts.

If you don't understand the admissions handicap especially in the scope of the B10, you're doomed to go out, get the flavor-of-the-year coach, and never find the right guy.

that’s a lot of analysis formed on the basis of a throw away comment from a guy who coached here 20+ years ago. There’s also plenty of talent outside the identified top 200 - Carmody was pretty regularly finding unheralded players and turning them into all conference performers. It’s not easy, but it’s doable.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

that’s a lot of analysis formed on the basis of a throw away comment from a guy who coached here 20+ years ago. There’s also plenty of talent outside the identified top 200 - Carmody was pretty regularly finding unheralded players and turning them into all conference performers. It’s not easy, but it’s doable.

He couldn’t get a full roster of those unheraldeded all conference performers. We don’t know if it’s doable but we can all hope.

 

[peatymeanis]

He couldn’t get a full roster of those unheraldeded all conference performers. We don’t know if it’s doable but we can all hope.

Carmodys issue was that he couldn’t find enough contributors outside the top guys. Collins has contributors galore but can’t get a top guy. Combine the two and you’ve got a stew going.

 

[SDakaGordie]

Mr. Pedantic here again. Carmody’s lead guys did not have the supporting cast, so they HAD to carry a bigger load, by definition, leading to better stats and more recognition. It does not mean they were better players than others from Collins’s teams that were deeper.

 

[Sec.112]

You have no idea if the admissions standards are exactly the same as when he coached here. Maybe they are. Who knows?

that’s a lot of analysis formed on the basis of a throw away comment from a guy who coached here 20+ years ago.

So we're just going to throw away the facts of what an actual coach says? One who was on his way out the door and had nothing to lose.

We're going to throw away that I doubled his estimate?

We'll also going to throw away the facts of six different NU coaches in the modern era. We'll ignore that Foster, O'Neill and Carmody had true success before NU. And we'll ignore that they couldn't reach the low-bar NITs in a couple years.

All so we can fit a narrative that it's easier and doable ... without the slightest bit of evidence.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

Mr. Pedantic here again. Carmody’s lead guys did not have the supporting cast, so they HAD to carry a bigger load, by definition, leading to better stats and more recognition. It does not mean they were better players than others from Collins’s teams that were deeper.

I also always thought Carmody's downfall was he was able to recruit guys with the specific skillset to be very efficient scorers within his very specific offense, but we were always just massive out athleticismed at every level. We'd have awful defenses and awful rebounding every year and get crushed in crunch time by strength and athleticism. Pardon was a program changing player in that way.

Carmody was a master coaching that offensive system, though. Collins is like the polar opposite: he's brought so much more athletic ability into the program, but hs team consistently have problems with offensive identity and running a reliable offense when things get nervy.

 

[Sec.112]

There’s also plenty of talent outside the identified top 200

I must be missing something. Who's that P6 team that has prospered with a majority of 200+ talent for the last ten years?

 

[rogerkim]

Interesting results so far. A very strong majority generally in favor of CC. A majority have essentially seen enough to bring him back: either they don't want him fired at all, or they only want to see a couple more wins, which given NU's schedule is minimal. The majority of those not in that camp just want to see an NIT berth, which NU just needs to win the games again awful opponents to accomplish. So a stronger sense in favor of Collins on here than a lot of the post discussion makes it seem.

My opinion: the results are indicative of the presence of a "silent majority" on the forum.

I will speak for myself, I am generally a Chris Collins fan. I tend not to speak up in his defense much on the forums because of how Collins supporters have often been treated by other forum members. I read and contribute to the forum because I am a Northwestern fan. I have no desire to get into heated arguments where either my intelligence or loyalty is questioned/belittled. I have no problem participating in friendly discussion and debates about different topics, but I have seen these discussions devolve into personal attacks/name-calling far too often to want to put myself out on a limb on a regular basis. Frankly, I have much better things to do with my time and energy. Hence, I often stay silent because I see no benefit in sharing my opinion or take on things. I imagine that I am not alone in this regard and I think this explains the results of the poll: the discussions that take place about CCC on the forum are often the view of the most vocal minority but not representative of the majority of forum members.

 

[peatymeanis]

And we'll ignore that they couldn't reach the low-bar NITs in a couple years.

Huh? Carmody did reach that low bar, he just wasn’t able to exceed it. And he did it with less administrative support (lower assistant coach salaries for ex) and much worse facilities than Collins has.

I must be missing something. Who's that P6 team that has prospered with a majority of 200+ talent for the last ten years?

Yeah what you’re missing is that nobody said you can prosper with majority 200+ talent. What was said was that there is talent to be found in the 200+ range. Also, Collins clearly can bring in top 200 ranked talent. He in fact does it all the time despite the limitations you all say are so difficult to overcome. His problem, once again, is that his recruits end up flopping at a much too high percentage.

 

[NUCat320]

I also always thought Carmody's downfall was he was able to recruit guys with the specific skillset to be very efficient scorers within his very specific offense, but we were always just massive out athleticismed at every level. We'd have awful defenses and awful rebounding every year and get crushed in crunch time by strength and athleticism. Pardon was a program changing player in that way.

Carmody was a master coaching that offensive system, though. Collins is like the polar opposite: he's brought so much more athletic ability into the program, but hs team consistently have problems with offensive identity and running a reliable offense when things get nervy.

Carmody would have a much wider group of players to recruit from if he were ten or 15 years younger. The PO is predicated on the idea that the three pointer and the layup are the most efficient shots, and all others should be minkmized.

Back in the early 00s, “we’ve got to recruit a center who can hit the three” was a harharhar joke, but, thanks to Steph Curry and the fact that the rest of the coaching world has recognized that three is worth more than two, everybody be chuckin’ now.

Just an observation.
I, for one, enjoyed seeing Aaron Jennings and Vince Scott Chuck ‘em. AJ was pretty decent by his senior year. (Dang, Vince hit 33% for his career. AJ hit 35% as a senior.)

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Do you know how many years Carmody openly made a reference to Troy Murphy as a single player that can turn things around? "All we need is our Troy Murphy."

Still waiting.

You guys that act as if this is a snap-of-the-fingers easy aren't dealing with the reality or the demonstrated history.

If you want to discount admissions as a primary challenge, let me remind you about Kevin O'Neill - the one guy who has experienced and openly talked about this. On the way to the Knicks, he told his buddy David Kaplan live on the air that only 10 out of the top 100 have a chance to get accepted to NU. So let's be generous and call it 25% of the top 100. That's 50 of the top 200.

Now, out of those 50, how many will realistically consider NU? Now we're optimistically down to 25. Out of those 25 how many:

* Will want warm weather?
* Think they can be pros and dump NU?
* Want a campus rather than a city?
* Are happy riding the bench on an NCAA team rather than playing at NU.
* Are more concerned about their game than academics?
* Now have NIL mentioned to them? Think NIL wasn't mentioned to Brumbaugh by Texas?

So you're probably looking at 10 of the top 200 every year. And then recruiting starts.

If you don't understand the admissions handicap especially in the scope of the B10, you're doomed to go out, get the flavor-of-the-year coach, and never find the right guy.

I didn't say "its easy."
I said "it isn't that tough."
2 high schoolers and one transfer a year and you are a good program...

And the flipside of that appears to be "woe is me, we have academic standards"

The transfer portal would be a huge boost for NU if potential players thought the coach was pretty good, because the Northwestern diploma is the 2nd or 3rd best in the Power 5.

As Ricky Roma said in Glengarry - "Your excuses are your own."

 

[TheC]

You think NU making the NIT or not doesn't change anything?

I don't. I think we diehard fans would enjoy it. But, unless this were a really young team who could build off an NIT run to greater things in the future, I agree with the original post that an NIT appearance will not make any waves.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

Thought I’d redirect our discussion on this from some other threads and see where the group is at given the little mini-streak here. Where does everybody stand on Collins given the final season result?

AdamOnFirst - I'm not a moderator but I'm awarding you WildcatReport Rookie of the Year. I appreciate the energy and posts you've brought to the board since you've joined. There are not many diehard Wildcat fans, so I always appreciate the convo.

 

[Sec.112]

His problem, once again, is that his recruits end up flopping at a much too high percentage.

Fight the laughable Collins fight all you want. He's gone this year or next. I have no clue why this repetitive campaign continues.

This isn't about Collins. What you fail to recognize is that there's a reason the recruits aren't available or flop. There isn't the inventory that you seem to want to think there is.

Here's the top 100 for the Nance-Kopp class - http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2018/order/true

History tell us 50-100 is only realistic. NU was also a finalist for Cormac Ryan. And if you want to believe the chatter, they were in on Tucker too. Okuro also. (PS, when grading CC's failures, it's laughable to use rankings as a measure. THT at 66?!?!?)

Who else was a realistic possibility that was going to move the needle for NU? Nesmith who ended up at Vandy and the Celtics is a definite argument. Butler who ended up at Baylor. And there's a load of 8-10 ppg guys.

And who can get into NU?

My argument isn't that CC has failed to bring in enough talent. It's the idea that there is some wealth of talent for NU to choose from. When you only have 3-6 options every year, the chances of bombing are incredibly high.

 

[peatymeanis]

Fight the laughable Collins fight all you want. He's gone this year or next. I have no clue why this repetitive campaign continues.

This isn't about Collins. What you fail to recognize is that there's a reason the recruits aren't available or flop. There isn't the inventory that you seem to want to think there is.

Here's the top 100 for the Nance-Kopp class - http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2018/order/true

History tell us 50-100 is only realistic. NU was also a finalist for Cormac Ryan. And if you want to believe the chatter, they were in on Tucker too. Okuro also. (PS, when grading CC's failures, it's laughable to use rankings as a measure. THT at 66?!?!?)

Who else was a realistic possibility that was going to move the needle for NU? Nesmith who ended up at Vandy and the Celtics is a definite argument. Butler who ended up at Baylor. And there's a load of 8-10 ppg guys.

And who can get into NU?

My argument isn't that CC has failed to bring in enough talent. It's the idea that there is some wealth of talent for NU to choose from. When you only have 3-6 options every year, the chances of bombing are incredibly high.

Your argument, taken to its logical conclusion is that it is near impossible to succeed at NU with its academic restrictions. The available talent pool is too shallow, the challenge is too difficult, etc etc. So was Collins delusional in taking the job? Was Carmody? They were both well regarded at the time of hire - why would they choose to take such a dead end job? Were they unaware of O'Neil's comments or did they not believe him? Were they not as smart as you and can't do the math?

 

[Sec.112]

One more point before I finish this for today.

We keep making these comparisons to the Carmody front line players - Jitim, VV, Coble, Shurna, Thompson, Crawford. I'm sure I'm missing a couple.

It's a good point and a reasonable comparison. However, we shouldn't act like finding the right talent was easy for Carmody either. a) Jitim was a KO recruit. b) My understanding is VV was taken sight unseen. But the real point is that the other players were recruited after Paul Lee and Craig Robinson left. That was an experienced staff that wasn't exactly getting to NITs either.

 

[hoosboot]

I don't. I think we diehard fans would enjoy it. But, unless this were a really young team who could build off an NIT run to greater things in the future, I agree with the original post that an NIT appearance will not make any waves.

That's interesting. Do you feel the same way about lower tier bowl games? It sure seems like that's something that programs (not just NU) talk about all the time.

As you can probably tell, I respectfully disagree about the NIT. For a program so absent of success in basketball of any kind, consistent NITs would be a huge development IMHO.

 

[Sec.112]

So was Collins delusional in taking the job? Was Carmody?

Hell, YEAH!!

I've said it before: NU is a coaching graveyard, and I appreciate anyone who takes on the challenge.

It's pretty well understood that Carmody did it somewhat as a favor to Bienan. They had a previous friendship from Princeton. Also, God love Carmody ... I think he believes in the altruistic idea that you can play at a high level and have true academics. NU was his chance to test it in a major conference.

As for CC, he got to come back to the area. But I also believe Phillips once worked for the Duke AD. I assume Phillips long targeted Collins and got some help from the Duke AD. I bet he also liked the stability that he could raise his kids here for 8+ years.

 

[peatymeanis]

Hell, YEAH!!

I've said it before: NU is a coaching graveyard, and I appreciate anyone who takes on the challenge.

It's pretty well understood that Carmody did it somewhat as a favor to Bienan. They had a previous friendship from Princeton. Also, God love Carmody ... I think he believes in the altruistic idea that you can play at a high level and have true academics. NU was his chance to test it in a major conference.

As for CC, he got to come back to the area. But I also believe Phillips once worked for the Duke AD. I assume Phillips long targeted Collins and got some help from the Duke AD. I bet he also liked the stability that he could raise his kids here for 8+ years.

I don't buy it. Anyone who is coaching at this level is a competitive maniac, and would not willingly come to what they see as a dead-end place in the prime of their career regardless of preexisting friendships or other factors.

 

[Sec.112]

I don't buy it. Anyone who is coaching at this level is a competitive maniac, and would not willingly come to what they see as a dead-end place in the prime of their career regardless of preexisting friendships or other factors.

I know there's a lot of obvious facts you want to ignore about this. I hope this helps you understand the Bienan-Carmody relationship. The paragraph you want to start reading begins with:

"Having lived across the street from Carril when he was Dean of the Woodrow Wilson School of International Studies at Princeton, Bienen has had affinity for the bouncy, orange ball and the swoosh of the net since he started playing the game in his early adolescence. The love for the game led to the start of Bienen’s and Carmody’s relationship."

The Carmody Plan

Tried to run, Tried to hide, Break on through to the other side! Break on through to the other side! The Doors' lead singer Jim Morrison was not referring to Northwestern basketball when he wrote these lyrics back in 1968. But as is the case with most musical masterpieces, the subject of such...

dailynorthwestern.com

The first five years of Carmody at NU demonstrated there was a whole lot he didn't understand about NU, it challenges and its opponents.

 

[GatoLouco]

I have no insight to the recruiting trail. So all my opinions are very uninformed when it comes to recruiting. Some thoughts:

1) I believe CC has brought in a decent amount of talent. Significantly more than BC. I don't care that Shurna was a better player than any CC recruited. One player does not make the critical mass needed to be competitive on the court. I remember hoping we would not be out rebounded by more than 10. Feeling a dunk was a miracle. That feeling is gone. And that's because our roster is top to bottom filled with better athletes

2) My gut feeling is that we do not get a shot at enough guys to complain about misses on PG position and the like. We find ourselves in the position of really needing to get best available. That belief is furthered by our inability of filling scholarship spots in recent years. Were those years we waited fro the right fit? Don't know, sounds plausible and we ended up with spots to fill. MI has needed a PG the last two season, they got a high profile one in the portal both years. But every year multiple teams have holes in positions and are still competitive.

3) My problem with the use of what we have is a disconnect between the players we have and the way CC wants to play. I believe CC aims to develop a style you might see exemplified at Baylor or Villanova. One that requires really good athletes. While we have better athletes than in the past, they are still not at or better levels than our peers in our league. This year is the closest we have ever been IMO, but that means being on par with 1/2 the league. Now, better or worse athletes don't automatically mean better players. I believe we would be much better suited to play along the lines of how Wisconsin or Butler does. I know I am probably the only one following Butler and their last two seasons have not been that great. But our recruiting classes are, believe it or not, much better than theirs.

4) So, in my mind what we've had over the last two cycles was a coach, BC, who maximized the talent he had, but the talent was so poor for B1G standards that it would be a miracle to be competitive, and CC, who has raised the talent brought in, but fails miserably at maximizing it.

5) We have enough talent to be competitive. That does not mean top of the league. That means 7-12 wins depending on the year.

 

[NUCat320]

I know there's a lot of obvious facts you want to ignore about this. I hope this helps you understand the Bienan-Carmody relationship. The paragraph you want to start reading begins with:

"Having lived across the street from Carril when he was Dean of the Woodrow Wilson School of International Studies at Princeton, Bienen has had affinity for the bouncy, orange ball and the swoosh of the net since he started playing the game in his early adolescence. The love for the game led to the start of Bienen’s and Carmody’s relationship."

The Carmody Plan

Tried to run, Tried to hide, Break on through to the other side! Break on through to the other side! The Doors' lead singer Jim Morrison was not referring to Northwestern basketball when he wrote these lyrics back in 1968. But as is the case with most musical masterpieces, the subject of such...

dailynorthwestern.com

The first five years of Carmody at NU demonstrated there was a whole lot he didn't understand about NU, it challenges and its opponents.

“We got new lockers”.