Collins to Notre Dame (my guess)

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

I love the assumption that Collins is a good coach.
Lets just ASSUME he's a good coach and base everything on that.

I have asked many times for supporters to provide evidence that he is good at any aspect of coaching beyond recruiting. Its a fair question, intended objectively.

Unfortunately, nobody has provided any such evidence. In fact his supporters tend to downplay his recruiting in order to downplay the talent that he has had available to him.

I'm glad Coach Collins is getting more out of his roster this year. I hope we win a lot of games. That doesn't mean he didn't do a terrible job last year.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

This gets my vote for most uninformed and hateful post of the year.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

But seriously, phatcat's comment that Collins "should be working at the snack bar" comes off as "the most uninformed and hateful post of the year?"

How?

 

[Katatonic]

Collins is an outstanding recruiter who would be even better without NU's academic restrictions.

On paper, CC has been the best recruiter in modern (post-1970) NU history), but when it has to come to those 4*/3* players translating it onto the college game, it has been underwhelming to say the least.

Either CC recruited the wrong players and/or failed to develop them w/ a few exceptions.

He definitely could. Succeed in an Ivy League job or another midmajor and all of a sudden he’s the guy who took Northwestern to its first tournament and rebuilt another program (with bad years made less significant). I think Collins should be fired if we don’t make the NCAA or come very close this year, but let’s not go too far …

Once Harvard lost its recruiting advantage in the Ivies, Amaker has turned into just another coach.

I have asked many times for suporters to provide evidence that he is good at any aspect pf coaching beyond recruiting. Its a fair question, intended objectively.

Unfortunately, nobody has provided any such evidence. In fact his supporters tend to downplay his recruiting in order to downplay the talent that he has had available to him.

Which is hilarious since a # of his supporters crowed about his recruiting early on.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I love the assumption that Collins is a good coach.
Lets just ASSUME he's a good coach and base everything on that.

I have asked many times for suporters to provide evidence that he is good at any aspect pf coaching beyond recruiting. Its a fair question, intended objectively.

Unfortunately, nobody has provided any such evidence. In fact his supporters tend to downplay his recruiting in order to downplay the talent that he has had available to him.

I'm glad Coach Collins is getting more out of his roster this year. I hope we win a lot of games. That doesn't mean he didn't do a terrible job last year.

There are two sides to this coin PWB. If I said I thought Big Matt and Barney have developed nicely, I am certain the retort would be they were pretty good last season and just weren’t properly used. If I said, we have an excellent defensive team, the credit would immediately go to Lowry. If I said RY and Kopp didn’t fit because they couldn’t guard Gato in his prime, I would hear they are good enough to start at a Blue Blood.

I think CCC was poor last year with his end of game management and the inevitable Fitz turtle killed us. Honestly, I think the staff has been quite good this year. I will admit to missing the Rutgers game for travel and it sounds like that wasn’t good. I still stand by my opinion that NU is overmatched talent wise in the Big by the majority of teams. There is no way we have more talent the Illinois, MSU and Indiana. Yet NU beat all 3. Posters have there own thoughts. I doubt anyone is going to sway those opinions with their subjective thoughts, so why engage in what inevitably becomes a contentious discussion?

 

[4IUSox2]

Now Coach Shrews being mentioned quite a bit. He grew up in Indy. Has worked with Stevens at Butler and Celtics; Painter at PU.
His PSU teams have been tough to play against for as out manned as they usually are. Would be a good get for ND.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

I love the assumption that Collins is a good coach.
Lets just ASSUME he's a good coach and base everything on that.

I have asked many times for suporters to provide evidence that he is good at any aspect pf coaching beyond recruiting. Its a fair question, intended objectively.

Unfortunately, nobody has provided any such evidence. In fact his supporters tend to downplay his recruiting in order to downplay the talent that he has had available to him.

I'm glad Coach Collins is getting more out of his roster this year. I hope we win a lot of games. That doesn't mean he didn't do a terrible job last year.

Recruiting (sort of) and energy/hustle, especially as that contributed to defense. Adding his hustle culture to a great defensive assistant has produced the results this year.

Unfortunately, basketball is mostly an offensive game and he’s an awful coach and schemer on that side, plus his big recruiting struggle is at the ball handling positions.

 

[ballerog711]

Kentucky gets 5 stars and they are not doing that well what happens to coach cal. Uconn is doing there dive as well.

Players these days are different than 20 years ago. You have to remember that.

With everything getting recorded. Motivation is a little different now.

I remember many moons aga schools would go out and practice after losing games. It was illegal, but no tape. Today cannot do that. Kids are pampered

 

[cometclear]

No chance that Collins is on the list. Or Amaker. Or anyone from the weak Coach K tree.

It's probably safe to say that a couple of coaches mentioned in this thread, Shrewsberry and Moser, will receive calls. I'd be surprised if Moser will be the pick, This is only, what, year two at Oklahoma? His buyout is large, and ND in the past was hesitant to spend big bucks on basketball. One would hope that the AD contacts Steve Pikiell, and I would pick him over the two above, frankly. I think he's an outstanding coach and he would recruit athleticism.
The hot name around ND is the Spurs assistant coach, Sean Sweeney. His offseason home is in the South Bend and he's a huge ND fan, with football season tickets. I read that he even tried to get the open spot on Brey's coaching staff at one point. He has the reputation of a defensive whiz kid and ND has been atrocious defensively.

 

[No Chores]

Recruiting (sort of) and energy/hustle, especially as that contributed to defense. Adding his hustle culture to a great defensive assistant has produced the results this year.

Unfortunately, basketball is mostly an offensive game and he’s an awful coach and schemer on that side, plus his big recruiting struggle is at the ball handling positions.

I have to disagree. We've won 12 games, mostly by playing good defense, and lost a couple of close ones as well, e.g. Auburn. If the 'Cats shot better, we'd be close to leading the Big Ten. It's really tough to teach a poor shooter to become a good shooter.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

I have to disagree. We've won 12 games, mostly by playing good defense, and lost a couple of close ones as well, e.g. Auburn. If the 'Cats shot better, we'd be close to leading the Big Ten. It's really tough to teach a poor shooter to become a good shooter.

As you've been watching this team for awhile, years, you know that NU's program is pretty consistently an incoherant mess on offense even before it starts missing shots. This year is probably an improvement, but they've still had offensive meltdown stretches and games aplenty.

 

[SDakaGordie]

As you've been watching this team for awhile, years, you know that NU's program is pretty consistently an incoherant mess on offense even before it starts missing shots. This year is probably an improvement, but they've still had offensive meltdown stretches and games aplenty.

Have you watched any of the women’s team this year? Did Coach Joe forget how to coach? Of course not. He doesn’t have the players. If Collins ever had someone relatively as dominant as Burton or Pulliam, you’d likely think a lot differently of him. And if you’ve watched every other NCAA team, you’d frequently see incoherent messes on offense; it’s caused by good defense.

 

[IGNORE2]

There are two sides to this coin PWB. If I said I thought Big Matt and Barney have developed nicely, I am certain the retort would be they were pretty good last season and just weren’t properly used. If I said, we have an excellent defensive team, the credit would immediately go to Lowry. If I said RY and Kopp didn’t fit because they couldn’t guard Gato in his prime, I would hear they are good enough to start at a Blue Blood.

I think CCC was poor last year with his end of game management and the inevitable Fitz turtle killed us. Honestly, I think the staff has been quite good this year. I will admit to missing the Rutgers game for travel and it sounds like that wasn’t good. I still stand by my opinion that NU is overmatched talent wise in the Big by the majority of teams. There is no way we have more talent the Illinois, MSU and Indiana. Yet NU beat all 3. Posters have there own thoughts. I doubt anyone is going to sway those opinions with their subjective thoughts, so why engage in what inevitably becomes a contentious discussion?

The coach has a variety of responsibilities, like most careers short of the guy that makes the fries, identify and recruit talent, coach and game plan. Ultimately, one result is the measuring stick - winning games. Failure to do so indicates one or more failures from the list above.

Save me the participation trophy graduating everyone stuff - I don’t buy in. Save me the character of the program - Vassar. Save me the hardest job in the world - CCC took it and the millions so I’m not starting a pity party for him.

He has dug his own hole. It’s pretty damn deep and convincing. There are surprisingly good things happening - but it’s not over and first season after ten. A few wins doesn’t remove the collar. In my mind, he is in prove it status and will be for a while.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

Have you watched any of the women’s team this year? Did Coach Joe forget how to coach? Of course not. He doesn’t have the players. If Collins ever had someone relatively as dominant as Burton or Pulliam, you’d likely think a lot differently of him. And if you’ve watched every other NCAA team, you’d frequently see incoherent messes on offense; it’s caused by good defense.

The difference is Collins has the exact same incoherent offensive problems, year after year, team after team, even as personnel changes. It's tremendously consistent. The women's team actually has up and down cycles because we have a much better women's coach (also, it's probably easier to be competitive in WBB than MBB at NU, but that's secondary to this discussion). This is very well established and you have this bizarre defensive streak of Collins trying to deny that obvious reality of his very consistent offensive failures, which are myriad.

 

[phatcat]

As you've been watching this team for awhile, years, you know that NU's program is pretty consistently an incoherant mess on offense even before it starts missing shots. This year is probably an improvement, but they've still had offensive meltdown stretches and games aplenty.

And they STILL miss shots. Meanwhile, they are now giving up an average of 73 pts in Jan. I thought they might steal some with defense but others are figuring them out. I fear the worst.

 

[SDakaGordie]

The difference is Collins has the exact same incoherent offensive problems, year after year, team after team, even as personnel changes. It's tremendously consistent. The women's team actually has up and down cycles because we have a much better women's coach (also, it's probably easier to be competitive in WBB than MBB at NU, but that's secondary to this discussion). This is very well established and you have this bizarre defensive streak of Collins trying to deny that obvious reality of his very consistent offensive failures, which are myriad.

You are very well spoken on all topics, so I certainly respect that. But, your calling me “bizarre” relegates you in this thread to the status of some others on the board who stoop as low and often lower.

Joe McKeown is a fine coach, for sure, but he is now struggling (way too) mightily with a much, much easier recruiting road (a secondary point, as you say).

Collins’ offensive schemes are NOT the problem with our team. He doesn’t execute his schemes on the court; players do. When the players do, it looks as good (and sometimes better) than any other team. (We wish he could control every bad shot Boo or Chase take, but that’s a tough ask with the limited bench we have). That’s my opinion, and I may be wrong, but I think many unbiased observers who watch would agree.

 

[Dugan15]

Recruiting (sort of) and energy/hustle, especially as that contributed to defense. Adding his hustle culture to a great defensive assistant has produced the results this year.

Unfortunately, basketball is mostly an offensive game and he’s an awful coach and schemer on that side, plus his big recruiting struggle is at the ball handling positions.

Respectfully, the phrasing “basketball is mostly an offensive game”, makes no sense. I can pretty comfortably suggest that it is 50% an offensive game.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

Respectfully, the phrasing “basketball is mostly an offensive game”, makes no sense. I can pretty comfortably suggest that it is 50% an offensive game.

Unlike football, where a typical game is maybe 28-24 or something, you can also win games 17-14 with some frequency, or even 14-10. You can't really win basketball games 36-32. Basketball is a game of efficient scoring, and while the defense can obviously impact that a lot, offense seems to have far more control, at the end of the day. That's why an elite defensive team that absolutely cannot score is not often going to be much of a good team while an elite offensive team with terrible defense has a chance to be decent.

 

[CappyNU]

You can't really win basketball games 36-32.

I beg to differ:

Penn State 36-33 Wisconsin (Mar 11, 2011) Final Score - ESPN

Game summary of the Penn State Nittany Lions vs. Wisconsin Badgers NCAAM game, final score 36-33, from March 11, 2011 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

 

[NUCat320]

I beg to differ:

Penn State 36-33 Wisconsin (Mar 11, 2011) Final Score - ESPN

Game summary of the Penn State Nittany Lions vs. Wisconsin Badgers NCAAM game, final score 36-33, from March 11, 2011 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

(Boo’s brother was 3-for18.)

 

[GatoLouco]

Once Harvard lost its recruiting advantage in the Ivies, Amaker has turned into just another coach.

Can you explain? Unaware of this.

I live in the Ann Arbor area for 3 years. My wife started working, through the in house temp placement agency, at the University of Michigan. After a while, they were really happy with her work and offered her a permanent position. She was super happy. Until, one week later, they told her she could not have it because it was going to be given to Amaker's wife.

 

[NJCat]

(Boo’s brother was 3-for18.)

It's in their DNA.

 

[EagerFan]

Man, I can't imagine wanting to coach at ND, but I suppose someone has to do it.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

There are two sides to this coin PWB. If I said I thought Big Matt and Barney have developed nicely, I am certain the retort would be they were pretty good last season and just weren’t properly used. If I said, we have an excellent defensive team, the credit would immediately go to Lowry. If I said RY and Kopp didn’t fit because they couldn’t guard Gato in his prime, I would hear they are good enough to start at a Blue Blood.

I think CCC was poor last year with his end of game management and the inevitable Fitz turtle killed us. Honestly, I think the staff has been quite good this year. I will admit to missing the Rutgers game for travel and it sounds like that wasn’t good. I still stand by my opinion that NU is overmatched talent wise in the Big by the majority of teams. There is no way we have more talent the Illinois, MSU and Indiana. Yet NU beat all 3. Posters have there own thoughts. I doubt anyone is going to sway those opinions with their subjective thoughts, so why engage in what inevitably becomes a contentious discussion?

PPD, I agree with a lot of what you wrote... we both know the arguments. Of course I thought Nicholson and Barnhizer should have played more last year as backups. Thats because I thought I saw talented, impactful players wasting away on the bench. (My criticism was not in hindsight - it was in real time) Its pretty easy to credit the coach for anything good that happens later with the "They weren't ready" argument. Its just not based on anything other than faith in the coach. A person is biased if he premises all his "arguments" with the implicit assumption "I think Collins is a good coach, therefore" (not referring to you)

As for Kopp and Young, they departed for different reasons. This relatively recent talking point that Collins told Kopp that he was going to cut his minutes strikes me as total fairy dust. Kopp's departure stunned Collins, plain and simple.

I'm guessing Young's departure was similar. To Young's credit he did it the right way and has been a bigger part of Duke's season than anybody here expected. That may sting Collins a bit, Duke being his alma mater and all.

Collins deserves credit for hiring Lowery. Even if the new defensive wrinkles are mostly Lowery's ideas. Successful coaches usually have strong assistants.

 

[NUCat320]

I guess Duke isn’t a top 25 team right now, but it sure is shocking to see that Duke is finding 22mpg for Young while NU only had 19 last year.

I truly expected him to be a late-game mascot that the fans begged to take a three in blowouts.

 

[GatoLouco]

I guess Duke isn’t a top 25 team right now, but is sure is shocking to see that Duke is finding 22mpg for Young while NU only had 19 last year.

I truly expected him to be a late-game mascot that the fans begged to take a three in blowouts.

And from what I've seen, he's acting like a leader on the court. You can be a leader, even if you are 100% a role player. But you can't be one if you are a benched should be starter.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

AdamOnFirst: "you have this bizarre defensive streak of Collins"
SDakaGordie: "you called me 'bizarre'" (followed by criticism of AdamOnFirst personally)

No he did not call you "bizarre." These sorts of misrepresentations...

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

And from what I've seen, he's acting like a leader on the court. You can be a leader, even if you are 100% a role player. But you can't be one if you are a benched should be starter.

How old is RY? I would expect nothing less with his maturity level. He is playing with a lot of guys that are 6 months out of HS.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

PPD, I agree with a lot of what you wrote... we both know the arguments. Of course I thought Nicholson and Barnhizer should have played more last year as backups. Thats because I thought I saw talented, impactful players wasting away on the bench. (My criticism was not in hindsight - it was in real time) Its pretty easy to credit the coach for anything good that happens later with the "They weren't ready" argument. Its just not based on anything other than faith in the coach. A person is biased if he premises all his "arguments" with the implicit assumption "I think Collins is a good coach, therefore" (not referring to you)

As for Kopp and Young, they departed for different reasons. This relatively recent talking point that Collins told Kopp that he was going to cut his minutes strikes me as total fairy dust. Kopp's departure stunned Collins, plain and simple.

I'm guessing Young's departure was similar. To Young's credit he did it the right way and has been a bigger part of Duke's season than anybody here expected. That may sting Collins a bit, Duke being his alma mater and all.

Collins deserves credit for hiring Lowery. Even if the new defensive wrinkles are mostly Lowery's ideas. Successful coaches usually have strong assistants.

It works both ways. One could say "Collins took a lightly recruited, slow big man with bad hands who couldn't see the court as a freshman, and turned him into a player worthy of being a major contributor at the premier program in the sport." One could also say, "Collins stumbled into a Duke-worthy big man and buried him on the bench behind a misplaced stretch 4 for the better part of four years." Neither one is entirely right or entirely wrong, and you could say the equivalent of both statements about nearly any player in any program ever.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

(Boo’s brother was 3-for18.)

I knew when I posted this somebody would surely find a game that had been won by that exact score. Still, you cannot suppress offense with defense to the same extent in basketball as in most other major sports. You have to be at least somewhat competent at efficiently scoring. Wisconsin is actually a perfect example of this: while they played an incredibly slow style that led to very low scoring games, they actually also usually combined that with being one of the most efficient teams in scoring per possession in the entire country. Very low turnovers, few high percentage of good shots, very good at making those shots, plus their pace frustrated a lot of other teams enough that they basically got free wins just by teams losing their discipline trying to break the pace and getting sloppy. So Wisconsin has often been a very good scoring team, in a very meaningful way.

 

[GatoLouco]

How old is RY? I would expect nothing less with his maturity level. He is playing with a lot of guys that are 6 months out of HS.

I hear you. I probably did not word it very well, my idea was that last year it was mentioned so often we lacked leadership. No clear leader, Nance would not step up, yada, yada. A leader is not necessarily the guy who steps, up, it is often the guy who leads others to step up. Just find it one more point to me personal belief that Young warming the bench was one of the worst coaching decisions I ever saw.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

I knew when I posted this somebody would surely find a game that had been won by that exact score. Still, you cannot suppress offense with defense to the same extent in basketball as in most other major sports. You have to be at least somewhat competent at efficiently scoring. Wisconsin is actually a perfect example of this: while they played an incredibly slow style that led to very low scoring games, they actually also usually combined that with being one of the most efficient teams in scoring per possession in the entire country. Very low turnovers, few high percentage of good shots, very good at making those shots, plus their pace frustrated a lot of other teams enough that they basically got free wins just by teams losing their discipline trying to break the pace and getting sloppy. So Wisconsin has often been a very good scoring team, in a very meaningful way.

I was watching a random game this weekend and the color analyst said something along the lines of "in college basketball, studies have shown that winning is more about scoring points than defense."

He didn't get more specific than that.

 

[docrugby1]

You are very well spoken on all topics, so I certainly respect that. But, your calling me “bizarre” relegates you in this thread to the status of some others on the board who stoop as low and often lower.

Joe McKeown is a fine coach, for sure, but he is now struggling (way too) mightily with a much, much easier recruiting road (a secondary point, as you say).

Collins’ offensive schemes are NOT the problem with our team. He doesn’t execute his schemes on the court; players do. When the players do, it looks as good (and sometimes better) than any other team. (We wish he could control every bad shot Boo or Chase take, but that’s a tough ask with the limited bench we have). That’s my opinion, and I may be wrong, but I think many unbiased observers who watch would agree.

I will disagree with your contention that CC runs a good offense . There is limited ball movement and rare inside out passing. There is limited off ball movement and virtually no cuts to the basket.
NU is a poor shooting team because their offense does not generate open looks(see Spencer's game winner)Boo and Chase take bad shots because that is what they usually have to take
The high post dribble exchange has no value because neither center can effectively execute the pick and roll.
I did not see the Michigan game , so I do not know whetherBeran was used in the high post as he would be able to turn and shoot or roll to the rim
I think NU's poor shooting is the product of an ineffective offense, not poor shooters

 

[Catreporter]

Nicholson has executed the pick and roll for a dunk in just about every game I've seen this season. We get a lot of open threes. Just are very inconsistent in making them.

 

[SDakaGordie]

I will disagree with your contention that CC runs a good offense . There is limited ball movement and rare inside out passing. There is limited off ball movement and virtually no cuts to the basket.
NU is a poor shooting team because their offense does not generate open looks(see Spencer's game winner)Boo and Chase take bad shots because that is what they usually have to take
The high post dribble exchange has no value because neither center can effectively execute the pick and roll.
I did not see the Michigan game , so I do not know whetherBeran was used in the high post as he would be able to turn and shoot or roll to the rim
I think NU's poor shooting is the product of an ineffective offense, not poor shooters

That’s fine; thanks. I hope you watch other games to see if you think other teams are so much more fluid and efficient. Most all run high post dribble exchanges.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Nicholson has executed the pick and roll for a dunk in just about every game I've seen this season. We get a lot of open threes. Just are very inconsistent in making them.

One of our best plays lately has been...

Nicholson - you go stand to the left of their basket...
Boo, you dribble at the top of the circle, then explode to your right toward the basket and get an advantage over the guy guarding you...

If their big comes over to block your shot, lob it up to the basket for Matt to dunk.
If their big stays on Nicholson, bank in a layup/short jumper.

A variation on this is - if anybody sees Nicholson standing alone by their basket, lob him the ball so that he can catch it and dunk it on the way down.

Other than those 2 "plays" and the pick and roll out at the 3 point line, our centers rarely have the ball passed to them. And that seems justified... although Nicholson passes the ball pretty well to cutters when he is away from the basket.

 

[ballerog711]

Can't wait to see where the staff end ups next year.

 

[GOUNUII]

Agreed. If CCC gets an ND offer, he should take it immediately because of the fresh start/clean slate that it would offer (as well as significantly lowered recruiting restrictions). I obviously don't believe any such offer is even close to consideration unless we make a deep NCAAT run, but given his tenure here is not on the most stable of foundations (7 losing seasons out of 9 total and 1 NCAAT bid), he should take pretty much any Power 5 parachute on offer.

Of course, there's no real basis for such an offer.

Only football is a sacred cow at ND. Brey has worked under the 3rd highest Power 6 academic restrictions in the country, behind only Stanford and NU. His replacement will do the same.

GOUNUII

 

[NVAcat]

Unlike football, where a typical game is maybe 28-24 or something, you can also win games 17-14 with some frequency, or even 14-10. You can't really win basketball games 36-32. Basketball is a game of efficient scoring, and while the defense can obviously impact that a lot, offense seems to have far more control, at the end of the day. That's why an elite defensive team that absolutely cannot score is not often going to be much of a good team while an elite offensive team with terrible defense has a chance to be decent.

While a competent offense is obviously important, you might want to watch Tony Bennett's UVA teams. They consistently win and have high national rankings with great pack line defense and usually very middling offense. They often have long scoring droughts. Bennett can recruit lots of 4 & 5 star players NU can't and despite that, pretty much except for the tournament win team, they win mostly because of defense. That has lead them to beating Duke, UNC & the rest of the ACC most of the time and winning the ACC quite often. As a UVA law grad I tend to watch a lot of their games and believe me that includes some major stretches where the offense takes a sabbatical.. UNC, Duke and others genertally have more talent than UVA but UVA prevails on defense.
BTW--when UVA loses it's generally because the other team makes a high percentage of three's. The pack line's weakness, like NU this year, is contesting the three when the other team can find the open man & the other teamis having a god shooting night.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I was watching a random game this weekend and the color analyst said something along the lines of "in college basketball, studies have shown that winning is more about scoring points than defense."

He didn't get more specific than that.

I am of the opinion that it is NU’s significant improvement on the defensive end that has led to success. The depth is still paper thin and getting in a run and gun shootout is a recipe for a loss. NU will never be a team the just our talents good teams. You need an identity and they have done a good job thus far establishing one.

 

[GrandRapidsCatFan]

I am of the opinion that it is NU’s significant improvement on the defensive end that has led to success. The depth is still paper thin and getting in a run and gun shootout is a recipe for a loss. NU will never be a team the just our talents good teams. You need an identity and they have done a good job thus far establishing one.

You say the depth is thin... And suddenly a wild Martinelli appears