Collins

[backdoorpass]

I think Collins is a really good coach. I think he's a good x's and o's coach and, up to this year, I think he has done a great job of motivating his teams to play consistently hard. I don't think any of the issues this year had to do with strategy or offensive sets....

We desperately need more kids who can generate their own shot. You can draw up great plays but ultimately it comes down to one guy beating another guy...

(Trying to get the discussion back on topic. All comments below are about CC and not in relation to any past NU coaches.)

I really like Collins as our coach. He is an outstanding face of the program. There have been a few regrettable instances of whining or gloating in post-game press conferences, but the same can probably be said of any coach. Collins generally makes a very positive impression. And one cannot understate the things that he has been able to accomplish in terms of getting financial support for the program (increased recruiting travel budget, video board, new arena, etc.) and energizing the fan base. Signing Collins through 2025 was the right thing to do.

I also think that his infectious attitude and motivational tactics had a ton to do with us making the NCAA Tournament (and his success in recruiting). From Day One, it seemed like CC's teams really rallied behind the repeated claim that "we're a blue collar team" and, of course, the "Pound The Rock" mantra. It showed in the teams' energy and approach. Unfortunately, after The Rock was smashed, the team didn't have the same urgency this past season. CC needs to find a new motivational theme and identity...but I have confidence that he will work this out.

I don't see much reason to knock CC's recruiting. On paper, the recruits have actually been better since the first recruiting class. BMac, Lindsey, Skelly and Vassar were all under-the-radar three-star recruits. Law was the only legitimate four-star recruit. Since then, 6 of 12 signees have been four-star recruits (Falzon, Benson, Ivanauskas, Lathon, Nance, Kopp). Plus, it seems that Turner is a high-quality upperclassman transfer (though originally a high three-star recruit out of high school). The one thing that does really worry me, however, is lack of options at PG next season. Unless we sign a really good grad transfer PG, we're pretty much Lathon Or Bust. We are one injury away from a total disaster.

Insomuch as can be seen from the outside, it seems that Collins runs a tight ship from an operational standpoint. He has a strong stable of assistant coaches and an experienced staff. I concede that the Vassar situation seems that it could have been handled better, but everyone make mistakes and learns from them. The combination of his experience at Duke, USA Basketball and his father's NBA experience/advice gives CC a strong understanding of how serious basketball organizations work and go about their business. This has probably contributed to the success with NU's administration and bigger budgets.

We differ a bit on the X's and O's as I believe that CC has the most to prove in this area. Northwestern under Collins has not been a very good offensive team. Some on the board seem to believe that it is a matter of luck or circumstance whether or not you make shots, but I see Northwestern under Collins as a team that takes a lot of bad shots. I'd like to see us feed the post more, make extra passes, work for better shots, create more offense from defense, get to the free throw line more frequently and score points out of timeouts/out of bounds situations. I saw a ton of these traits in the better NCAA Tournament teams and not just "kids who can generate their own shot." For years, Bo Ryan had one of the best offensive teams in the B10 without too many guys who were special at creating their own shots. Wisconsin certainly never had a team full of them.

As far as player development goes, the jury is still out. BMac was a 20-year old freshman who came in perhaps close to his potential. Skelly and Lindsey went from being 3-star recruits and marginal freshmen contributors to solid B10 upperclassmen. I also think that CC got the most out of Lumkin and Taphorn by the time they were seniors. We will see how this next batch of seniors (Law, Pardon and Ash) finish their careers.

Add all these things together and I think that we have a great situation at head coach--and room for continual improvement.

 

[Jonny2TheP]

I don’t have a “different opinion” than others.

He got a kid with a Duke offer and got a kid who ended up in the NBA. CC has never done either.

No opinion offered there.

It’s laughable and expected that people here would basically respond - yeah, but it wasn’t Duke”s all time “best” player, and he’s not the “greatest” player in the NBA history and other weak attempts to spin.

Facts are facts.

169 RPI and another 10th place finish are facts.

If we landed a kid with a Duke offer tomorrow, this place would be doing backflips off the roof.

10th, half a decade in, picked 13th in the Big next year. 169th in the country!!! with all his own “better, more athletic recruits.”

So let’s dice and splice two flat out, incontrovertible facts about 2 BC guys’ accomplishments to pass the time, and mince words about Duke and the NBA. And act like we’re all super psyched by a third 10th place in 5 tries, and a projection of 13th next year. Halfway through BC’s length of time, we’re picked 13th.

Hmmm....

This is exactly why I don't get involved in these pointless discussions with you. I shouldn't have engaged because you are just playing a bit and nothing is going to change your mind. Lesson learned.

 

[clarificationcat]

I don’t have a “different opinion” than others.

He got a kid with a Duke offer and got a kid who ended up in the NBA. CC has never done either.

No opinion offered there.

It’s laughable and expected that people here would basically respond - yeah, but it wasn’t Duke”s all time “best” player, and he’s not the “greatest” player in the NBA history and other weak attempts to spin.

Facts are facts.

169 RPI and another 10th place finish are facts.

If we landed a kid with a Duke offer tomorrow, this place would be doing backflips off the roof.

10th, half a decade in, picked 13th in the Big next year. 169th in the country!!! with all his own “better, more athletic recruits.”

So let’s dice and splice two flat out, incontrovertible facts about 2 BC guys’ accomplishments to pass the time, and mince words about Duke and the NBA. And act like we’re all super psyched by a third 10th place in 5 tries, and a projection of 13th next year. Halfway through BC’s length of time, we’re picked 13th.

Hmmm....

And the award for selective use of facts goes to ....

Collins - Year 4 - NCAA tournament. Two victories in conference tournament. Made it to the round of 32. Lost to number 1 seed that made it to championship game in a close game. RPI of 48

Carmody - Years 1-13. No NCAA tournament. Never more than one victory in conference tournament.

Collins - three top 100 recruits in first five recruiting classes. And he beat out Michigan, Ohio State, and Butler, among others for those recruits.

Carmody - how many top 100 recruits in 13 years? Oh yeah, but he did pick up a kid that transferred from Duke after averaging 3 minutes a game his first two seasons. A kid that wanted playing time and to play closer to home. We beat out Notre Dame and DePaul for him. I was happy to get him at the time and thought he was better than our other big men. I never did backflips, though.

And it's kind of unrealistic to expect Collins to have produced NBA players when his first recruiting class is graduating this year.

 

[willycat]

I don’t have a “different opinion” than others.

He got a kid with a Duke offer and got a kid who ended up in the NBA. CC has never done either.

No opinion offered there.

It’s laughable and expected that people here would basically respond - yeah, but it wasn’t Duke”s all time “best” player, and he’s not the “greatest” player in the NBA history and other weak attempts to spin.

Facts are facts.

169 RPI and another 10th place finish are facts.

If we landed a kid with a Duke offer tomorrow, this place would be doing backflips off the roof.

10th, half a decade in, picked 13th in the Big next year. 169th in the country!!! with all his own “better, more athletic recruits.”

So let’s dice and splice two flat out, incontrovertible facts about 2 BC guys’ accomplishments to pass the time, and mince words about Duke and the NBA. And act like we’re all super psyched by a third 10th place in 5 tries, and a projection of 13th next year. Halfway through BC’s length of time, we’re picked 13th.

Hmmm....

Collins brought NU into their FIRST EVER NCAA appearance! Carmody never did in 13 seasons. Facts are facts. Face it.

 

[clarificationcat]

(Trying to get the discussion back on topic. All comments below are about CC and not in relation to any past NU coaches.)

I really like Collins as our coach. He is an outstanding face of the program. There have been a few regrettable instances of whining or gloating in post-game press conferences, but the same can probably be said of any coach. Collins generally makes a very positive impression. And one cannot understate the things that he has been able to accomplish in terms of getting financial support for the program (increased recruiting travel budget, video board, new arena, etc.) and energizing the fan base. Signing Collins through 2025 was the right thing to do.

I also think that his infectious attitude and motivational tactics had a ton to do with us making the NCAA Tournament (and his success in recruiting). From Day One, it seemed like CC's teams really rallied behind the repeated claim that "we're a blue collar team" and, of course, the "Pound The Rock" mantra. It showed in the teams' energy and approach. Unfortunately, after The Rock was smashed, the team didn't have the same urgency this past season. CC needs to find a new motivational theme and identity...but I have confidence that he will work this out.

I don't see much reason to knock CC's recruiting. On paper, the recruits have actually been better since the first recruiting class. BMac, Lindsey, Skelly and Vassar were all under-the-radar three-star recruits. Law was the only legitimate four-star recruit. Since then, 6 of 12 signees have been four-star recruits (Falzon, Benson, Ivanauskas, Lathon, Nance, Kopp). Plus, it seems that Turner is a high-quality upperclassman transfer (though originally a high three-star recruit out of high school). The one thing that does really worry me, however, is lack of options at PG next season. Unless we sign a really good grad transfer PG, we're pretty much Lathon Or Bust. We are one injury away from a total disaster.

Insomuch as can be seen from the outside, it seems that Collins runs a tight ship from an operational standpoint. He has a strong stable of assistant coaches and an experienced staff. I concede that the Vassar situation seems that it could have been handled better, but everyone make mistakes and learns from them. The combination of his experience at Duke, USA Basketball and his father's NBA experience/advice gives CC a strong understanding of how serious basketball organizations work and go about their business. This has probably contributed to the success with NU's administration and bigger budgets.

We differ a bit on the X's and O's as I believe that CC has the most to prove in this area. Northwestern under Collins has not been a very good offensive team. Some on the board seem to believe that it is a matter of luck or circumstance whether or not you make shots, but I see Northwestern under Collins as a team that takes a lot of bad shots. I'd like to see us feed the post more, make extra passes, work for better shots, create more offense from defense, get to the free throw line more frequently and score points out of timeouts/out of bounds situations. I saw a ton of these traits in the better NCAA Tournament teams and not just "kids who can generate their own shot." For years, Bo Ryan had one of the best offensive teams in the B10 without too many guys who were special at creating their own shots. Wisconsin certainly never had a team full of them.

As far as player development goes, the jury is still out. BMac was a 20-year old freshman who came in perhaps close to his potential. Skelly and Lindsey went from being 3-star recruits and marginal freshmen contributors to solid B10 upperclassmen. I also think that CC got the most out of Lumkin and Taphorn by the time they were seniors. We will see how this next batch of seniors (Law, Pardon and Ash) finish their careers.

Add all these things together and I think that we have a great situation at head coach--and room for continual improvement.

We disagree on the X's and O's but nothing we can really debate. Hard to conclude if it's the system or the players without sitting down and going through the games.

With respect to recruiting, after you get past the top 100 plus players, you need to find ballplayers that fit your system. Bo Ryan did a great job of that as well as player development. Rap was recruited on his size and potential. Falzon on his shooting ability and size (which I completely get). Brown based on his scoring ability. Benson on being big. Ash on being athletic. None is a complete ballplayer and none is a B1G starter. Falzon is the only one that arguably is a rotation guy. There are lots of kids out there with lower recruiting rankings that would have helped the team more. I know that injuries played a factor but Collins needs to do a better job of identifying players that can succeed in his system, whatever their rankings are. Or start recruiting all top 100 players and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[willycat]

We disagree on the X's and O's but nothing we can really debate. Hard to conclude if it's the system or the players without sitting down and going through the games.

With respect to recruiting, after you get past the top 100 plus players, you need to find ballplayers that fit your system. Bo Ryan did a great job of that as well as player development. Rap was recruited on his size and potential. Falzon on his shooting ability and size (which I completely get). Brown based on his scoring ability. Benson on being big. Ash on being athletic. None is a complete ballplayer and none is a B1G starter. Falzon is the only one that arguably is a rotation guy. There are lots of kids out there with lower recruiting rankings that would have helped the team more. I know that injuries played a factor but Collins needs to do a better job of identifying players that can succeed in his system, whatever their rankings are. Or start recruiting all top 100 players and let the chips fall where they may.

Hasn't Benson been a rotation guy for two seasons? Collins has at least 8 more seasons to find and develop his kind of players.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

(Trying to get the discussion back on topic. All comments below are about CC and not in relation to any past NU coaches.)

I really like Collins as our coach. He is an outstanding face of the program. There have been a few regrettable instances of whining or gloating in post-game press conferences, but the same can probably be said of any coach. Collins generally makes a very positive impression. And one cannot understate the things that he has been able to accomplish in terms of getting financial support for the program (increased recruiting travel budget, video board, new arena, etc.) and energizing the fan base. Signing Collins through 2025 was the right thing to do.

I also think that his infectious attitude and motivational tactics had a ton to do with us making the NCAA Tournament (and his success in recruiting). From Day One, it seemed like CC's teams really rallied behind the repeated claim that "we're a blue collar team" and, of course, the "Pound The Rock" mantra. It showed in the teams' energy and approach. Unfortunately, after The Rock was smashed, the team didn't have the same urgency this past season. CC needs to find a new motivational theme and identity...but I have confidence that he will work this out.

I don't see much reason to knock CC's recruiting. On paper, the recruits have actually been better since the first recruiting class. BMac, Lindsey, Skelly and Vassar were all under-the-radar three-star recruits. Law was the only legitimate four-star recruit. Since then, 6 of 12 signees have been four-star recruits (Falzon, Benson, Ivanauskas, Lathon, Nance, Kopp). Plus, it seems that Turner is a high-quality upperclassman transfer (though originally a high three-star recruit out of high school). The one thing that does really worry me, however, is lack of options at PG next season. Unless we sign a really good grad transfer PG, we're pretty much Lathon Or Bust. We are one injury away from a total disaster.

Insomuch as can be seen from the outside, it seems that Collins runs a tight ship from an operational standpoint. He has a strong stable of assistant coaches and an experienced staff. I concede that the Vassar situation seems that it could have been handled better, but everyone make mistakes and learns from them. The combination of his experience at Duke, USA Basketball and his father's NBA experience/advice gives CC a strong understanding of how serious basketball organizations work and go about their business. This has probably contributed to the success with NU's administration and bigger budgets.

We differ a bit on the X's and O's as I believe that CC has the most to prove in this area. Northwestern under Collins has not been a very good offensive team. Some on the board seem to believe that it is a matter of luck or circumstance whether or not you make shots, but I see Northwestern under Collins as a team that takes a lot of bad shots. I'd like to see us feed the post more, make extra passes, work for better shots, create more offense from defense, get to the free throw line more frequently and score points out of timeouts/out of bounds situations. I saw a ton of these traits in the better NCAA Tournament teams and not just "kids who can generate their own shot." For years, Bo Ryan had one of the best offensive teams in the B10 without too many guys who were special at creating their own shots. Wisconsin certainly never had a team full of them.

As far as player development goes, the jury is still out. BMac was a 20-year old freshman who came in perhaps close to his potential. Skelly and Lindsey went from being 3-star recruits and marginal freshmen contributors to solid B10 upperclassmen. I also think that CC got the most out of Lumkin and Taphorn by the time they were seniors. We will see how this next batch of seniors (Law, Pardon and Ash) finish their careers.

Add all these things together and I think that we have a great situation at head coach--and room for continual improvement.

Wisconsin had guys who could create their own shots. Frank Kaminsky, Sam Dekker, and Alando Tucker to name a few.

Creating shots can be done within an offensive scheme. The goal of the offense is to get those guys in positions they're comfortable in and mismatches that cause the D to react creating a hole where there's an open man or the D doesn't react and the player wins one on one.

Also creating shots isn't always driving and taking someone to the hole. It could be a post up. Or A pull up jumper and more.

So I'm agreeing and disagreeing I guess. You need a good scheme but a good scheme only goes so far.

 

[Sec.112]

ClarificationCat, I don't disagree with your initial direction, however, I think one of the traits you're missing in your new and improved offense is a knock-down shooter. As Michigan showed, you can have several guys who can drive to the basket, but if you can't knock down an outside shot, suddenly things get awfully easy on defense.

How many times did we see that this year? It's not a choice of one or the other. Both are needed. And if you have that consistent outside shooter, things become a lot easier for even the most mediocre drive to the basket.

 

[clarificationcat]

ClarificationCat, I don't disagree with your initial direction, however, I think one of the traits you're missing in your new and improved offense is a knock-down shooter. As Michigan showed, you can have several guys who can drive to the basket, but if you can't knock down an outside shot, suddenly things get awfully easy on defense.

How many times did we see that this year? It's not a choice of one or the other. Both are needed. And if you have that consistent outside shooter, things become a lot easier for even the most mediocre drive to the basket.

Agreed. You can't win in today's game without 3-point shooting. You have to have both. Falzon and Law need to knock down 40% of their open 3's. They should get more open looks if other guys can penetrate and dish out. Obviously, offensive rebounds are also a good way to create open looks and get easy baskets.

 

[DaCat]

Agreed. You can't win in today's game without 3-point shooting. You have to have both. Falzon and Law need to knock down 40% of their open 3's. They should get more open looks if other guys can penetrate and dish out. Obviously, offensive rebounds are also a good way to create open looks and get easy baskets.

I'm hoping Miller Kopp will be a factor from 3-point range next season.

 

[clarificationcat]

Hasn't Benson been a rotation guy for two seasons? Collins has at least 8 more seasons to find and develop his kind of players.

He had to spell Pardon but I don't think he was effective last year in limited minutes. He provided almost no offense and committed a lot of fouls on defense. Up until the last couple of games, I think he may have had more fouls than points. Collins often pulled him sooner than he would have preferred. He played pretty well along side Pardon, though, so I am hoping he can build on that. It would be great if there were times when Collins gives Pardon a longer rest because Benson is playing well.

 

[Sec.112]

... Falzon and Law need to knock down 40% of their open 3's ...

Would you want to bet on either hitting 40%?

No thanks!!!! Let's hope Kopp can deliver.

 

[NJCat]

Would you want to bet on either hitting 40%?

No thanks!!!! Let's hope Kopp can deliver.

Really?

Vic shot 39.9% in 2016-17 and 38.3% last season. I'd bet he can improve to 40%......

Falzon shot 35% as a true Freshman and 37.5% last year.......

 

[cometclear]

Let's use some reason here:

1) Michael Thompson is your "Duke" example, which as others have pointed out, was a transfer that barely played at Duke, and wasn't a huge difference maker for us either.
2) Reggie Hearn, who I am a huge fan of, was a walk on that has worked his way to becoming basically a G League player that has played a few minutes in a couple NBA games. His story is great, and I root for him hard, but he's a borderline NBA talent at best.

Even you have to admit that these are incredibly weak examples that you are propping any argument up on. On top of that, Carmody had 12 years to breed those two examples, while Collins' first recruiting class just played their last game a month ago. Yes, there does not appear to be a future NBA player on the current roster, but let's see where we're at after 12 years

I have no issue with you having a different opinion than others, but these are really weak arguments that are huge stretches.

So, in the first case we have a McDonald's All-American transfer whom UCLA, Texas, ND and many others re-recruited in 2003 who didn't ultimately pan out, so he should not have been judged to be a top recruit because of his on-court performance. In the other case, we have a lightly-regarded recruit who turned out to be terrific on the court, but he shouldn't be regarded as a tough get because he wasn't highly regarded.

I see this glaring contradiction get played out here many times as posters contort to paint current efforts in the brightest light and tarnish past accomplishments out of the mistaken notion that doing this will make the current regime look better.

 

[Jonny2TheP]

So, in the first case we have a McDonald's All-American transfer whom UCLA, Texas, ND and many others re-recruited in 2003 who didn't ultimately pan out, so he should not have been judged to be a top recruit because of his on-court performance. In the other case, we have a lightly-regarded recruit who turned out to be terrific on the court, but he shouldn't be regarded as a tough get because he wasn't highly regarded.

I see this glaring contradiction get played out here many times as posters contort to paint current efforts in the brightest light and tarnish past accomplishments out of the mistaken notion that doing this will make the current regime look better.

You completely missed the point. I’m really trying to avoid playing the tiresome Carmody and Collins game. What I’m saying is basing a Carmody support argument on a “he got Duke recruits” and sent players to the NBA (can’t remember the specific wording) is really stretching the truth as far as possible to support a narrative that this poster has beaten to a pulp.

And you’re talking about Collins supporters “contort(ing) to paint” a certain picture. The above example is about as ridiculous as it gets.

 

[cometclear]

You completely missed the point. I’m really trying to avoid playing the tiresome Carmody and Collins game. What I’m saying is basing a Carmody support argument on a “he got Duke recruits” and sent players to the NBA (can’t remember the specific wording) is really stretching the truth as far as possible to support a narrative that this poster has beaten to a pulp.

And you’re talking about Collins supporters “contort(ing) to paint” a certain picture. The above example is about as ridiculous as it gets.

Let me bring you up to speed:

1. I agree that anyone who casts Carmody's signing of Thompson as evidence of poaching Duke recruits is dumb. At the same time, there hasn't been another NU recruit since who had a list of suitors like Thompson did when he reopened his recruitment in 2003 when he transferred. Nance had a nice list been not as good as Thompson's. That was the more effective argument to make.

2. Pointing out that no players over the past four years have made it to The League while the previous two coaches both sent a player to the NBA isn't a ridiculous point, given that NU has had, what, one other player in its history stay in the NBA (McKinney)?

 

[Jonny2TheP]

Let me bring you up to speed:

1. I agree that anyone who casts Carmody's signing of Thompson as evidence of poaching Duke recruits is dumb. At the same time, there hasn't been another NU recruit since who had a list of suitors like Thompson did when he reopened his recruitment in 2003 when he transferred. Nance had a nice list been not as good as Thompson's. That was the more effective argument to make.

2. Pointing out that no players over the past four years have made it to The League while the previous two coaches both sent a player to the NBA isn't a ridiculous point, given that NU has had, what, one other player in its history stay in the NBA (McKinney)?

Man, it feels good to be up to speed- thanks for that.

So let me ask you a question. When NU ended up landing Thompson, what was his offer list? Not out of high school, but when he was transferring. Since that is when he decided to come to Northwestern, that’s really what the comparison should be made to. Another poster mentioned Notre Dame and DePaul. If that’s what we were going up against, then we’ve absolutely landed recruits with better off lists than that.

 

[MysticCat]

You completely missed the point. I’m really trying to avoid playing the tiresome Carmody and Collins game. What I’m saying is basing a Carmody support argument on a “he got Duke recruits” and sent players to the NBA (can’t remember the specific wording) is really stretching the truth as far as possible to support a narrative that this poster has beaten to a pulp.

And you’re talking about Collins supporters “contort(ing) to paint” a certain picture. The above example is about as ridiculous as it gets.

It’s not stretching the truth one iota. Which assertion is confusing you: that MT was offered by Duke, or that Hearn went to the NBA?

I’m sure any poster could clear either point up in ....oh, 2 seconds, max.

 

[cometclear]

Man, it feels good to be up to speed- thanks for that.

So let me ask you a question. When NU ended up landing Thompson, what was his offer list? Not out of high school, but when he was transferring. Since that is when he decided to come to Northwestern, that’s really what the comparison should be made to. Another poster mentioned Notre Dame and DePaul. If that’s what we were going up against, then we’ve absolutely landed recruits with better off lists than that.

No problem.

I just listed three of the schools when he transferred: UCLA, Texas, ND were among the finalists, but there were many other high-major programs who wanted him when he decided to leave. You're quite ignorant of ND. It's previous class before that one included McDonald's AA Torin Francis and was a top 15/top 20 class. As I recall, there was another good Big East team on the list, perhaps Villanova. I'd have to dig that up.

BTW, DePaul circa 2003 was during Leitao's first run at the school and they won 22 games and were playing good basketball. Probably more intelligent to base your estimation off what they were at the time instead of where they are in 2018. Just a thought.

 

[Jonny2TheP]

No problem.

I just listed three of the schools when he transferred: UCLA, Texas, ND were among the finalists, but there were many other high-major programs who wanted him when he decided to leave. You're quite ignorant of ND. It's previous class before that one included McDonald's AA Torin Francis and was a top 15/top 20 class. As I recall, there was another good Big East team on the list, perhaps Villanova. I'd have to dig that up.

BTW, DePaul circa 2003 was during Leitao's first run at the school and they won 22 games and were playing good basketball. Probably more intelligent to base your estimation off what they were at the time instead of where they are in 2018. Just a thought.

Thanks for the information. The condescending tone helped as well.

This is a conversation going nowhere. Helpful tip for you though. Probably more intelligent to base your estimation off what Northestern’s program currently is instead of what it was in the 2000’s when we were landing big time transfers like Michael Thompson.

Also, if we’re playing the “who they were then” game, it’s probably also more intelligent to note that UCLA was coming off a 21-36 two year stretch and was a total mess with a coaching change thrown in as well.

Nevermind my initial statement. Turns out this condescending selective fact game is easier to play than I thought. Appears you and Mystic aren’t the only ones that can play it.

 

[cometclear]

Thanks for the information. The condescending tone helped as well.

This is a conversation going nowhere. Helpful tip for you though. Probably more intelligent to base your estimation off what Northestern’s program currently is instead of what it was in the 2000’s when we were landing big time transfers like Michael Thompson.

Also, if we’re playing the “who they were then” game, it’s probably also more intelligent to note that UCLA was coming off a 21-36 two year stretch and was a total mess with a coaching change thrown in as well.

Nevermind my initial statement. Turns out this condescending selective fact game is easier to play than I thought. Appears you and Mystic aren’t the only ones that can play it.

I am comparing NU based off of whom they beat out for recruits vs. whom they beat out for recruits in the past, putting both in proper context. That's why I pointed out where those programs were at during that time.

Just a correction. Ben Howland had taken over UCLA by that point. Not too many would argue Howland was a sub-standard recruiter. We all know where the program went with him at the helm over the next few years. Very misleading to throw out the record and not take into account who had taken over and was recruiting Thompson at that point.

 

[Jonny2TheP]

I am comparing NU based off of whom they beat out for recruits vs. whom they beat out for recruits in the past, putting both in proper context. That's why I pointed out where those programs were at during that time.

Just a correction. Ben Howland had taken over UCLA by that point. Not too many would argue Howland was a sub-standard recruiter. We all know where the program went with him at the helm over the next few years. Very misleading to throw out the record and not take into account who had taken over and was recruiting Thompson at that point.

This has gone so far off course that we aren’t even talking about anything relevant anymore.

In conclusion, the point is...so what? We beat out Louisville and Marquette for Luka Mircovic and Wisconsin, Pitt, and Marquette for Kyle Rowley. And Cincinnati for Jershon Cobb. Other than, the “we beat out x team” comment that makes a fan feel good, it doesn’t matter. Some of our best players like Kevin Coble and John Shurna had no significant offers. Who cares?

I like Coach Carmody. I appreciate what he did for the NU program and getting it to the edge of the NCAA tournament...Doesn’t change the fact that if your supporting evidence for “Coach Carmody landed Duke recruits and sent guys to the NBA” are Michael Thompson and Reggie Hearn, then you really probably shouldn’t even have made the point in the first place.

 

[Sec.112]

Really?

Really.

You'll have to excuse me if I think B10 stats are a more realistic measure.

Law - 33.3% and 33.7% in his last two years. Fairly consistent, don't you think?

Falzon - 35.4% and 36.7% in his two B10 years. Hopefully, they can find the Falzon who shoots 60% from 3 in five B10 games this year.

Unfortunately, the guy who shot 20% in the other 13 games is always lurking around the corner.

Consistency is my key in Clarification's offense.

 

[cometclear]

This has gone so far off course that we aren’t even talking about anything relevant anymore.

In conclusion, the point is...so what? We beat out Louisville and Marquette for Luka Mircovic and Wisconsin, Pitt, and Marquette for Kyle Rowley. And Cincinnati for Jershon Cobb. Other than, the “we beat out x team” comment that makes a fan feel good, it doesn’t matter. Some of our best players like Kevin Coble and John Shurna had no significant offers. Who cares?

I like Coach Carmody. I appreciate what he did for the NU program and getting it to the edge of the NCAA tournament...Doesn’t change the fact that if your supporting evidence for “Coach Carmody landed Duke recruits and sent guys to the NBA” are Michael Thompson and Reggie Hearn, then you really probably shouldn’t even have made the point in the first place.

\

Friend, you're the one who weighed in on this in the first place to quibble about something that doesn't amount to much of anything in the end.

I think I addressed the two points upon which you took issue, generally agreeing with you on the first one but pointing out that the second point made by the other poster was not a "ridiculous point."

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

\

Friend, you're the one who weighed in on this in the first place to quibble about something that doesn't amount to much of anything in the end.

I think I addressed the two points upon which you took issue, generally agreeing with you on the first one but pointing out that the second point made by the other poster was not a "ridiculous point."

I thought it was pretty awesome when Collins became NU's first head coach to lead us to the NCAA tournament, where we also notched our first NCAA tourney win.

Who in the hell is so stuck in the past that they still care about Carmody!?

 

[EvanstonCat]

Let's use some reason here:

1) Michael Thompson is your "Duke" example, which as others have pointed out, was a transfer that barely played at Duke, and wasn't a huge difference maker for us either.
2) Reggie Hearn, who I am a huge fan of, was a walk on that has worked his way to becoming basically a G League player that has played a few minutes in a couple NBA games. His story is great, and I root for him hard, but he's a borderline NBA talent at best.

Even you have to admit that these are incredibly weak examples that you are propping any argument up on. On top of that, Carmody had 12 years to breed those two examples, while Collins' first recruiting class just played their last game a month ago. Yes, there does not appear to be a future NBA player on the current roster, but let's see where we're at after 12 years

I have no issue with you having a different opinion than others, but these are really weak arguments that are huge stretches.

Michael Thompson was obviously overrated and only came to NU after he couldn't find any playing time whatsoever at Duke. Although, he was probably as effective as any other NU center that Carmody recruited not named Aaron Jennings (yeah that was my point).

Reggie Hearn was NOT recruited by Carmody. He was a walk-on. Although, I suppose the amount of effort that Carmody put into recruiting Hearn was probably no different from that which he put into the recruitment of any other player.

And Mystic is no Cat fan. Not sure why good people like Shakes get yanked from the board, and this obvious troll is tolerated by the moderators here.

#FreeShakes #DieCarmodyHuggers

 

[Gladeskat]

And Mystic is no Cat fan. Not sure why good people like Shakes get yanked from the board, and this obvious troll is tolerated by the moderators here.
#FreeShakes #DieCarmodyHuggers

Well, so far Mystic hasn't cussed out every CCC-lover on the boards as well as the moderators.

 

[MysticCat]

Michael Thompson was obviously overrated and only came to NU after he couldn't find any playing time whatsoever at Duke. Although, he was probably as effective as any other NU center that Carmody recruited not named Aaron Jennings (yeah that was my point).

Reggie Hearn was NOT recruited by Carmody. He was a walk-on. Although, I suppose the amount of effort that Carmody put into recruiting Hearn was probably no different from that which he put into the recruitment of any other player.

And Mystic is no Cat fan. Not sure why good people like Shakes get yanked from the board, and this obvious troll is tolerated by the moderators here.

#FreeShakes #DieCarmodyHuggers

Nope. Recruited Hearn.

NBA.

 

[Styre]

Michael Thompson was obviously overrated and only came to NU after he couldn't find any playing time whatsoever at Duke. Although, he was probably as effective as any other NU center that Carmody recruited not named Aaron Jennings (yeah that was my point).

MT1 was not as effective as any other NU center. Luka and Olah were significantly better than he was, as was Jennings. But yes, he left Duke because he couldn’t play.

 

[NJCat]

MT1 was not as effective as any other NU center. Luka and Olah were significantly better than he was, as was Jennings. But yes, he left Duke because he couldn’t play.

MT1 gets a bad rap. His first year at NU he averaged 10.2 points and 5 rebounds. His second year he retired after 3 games due to a medical (heart?) condition. The guy was a decent Center by NU standards, playing in an offense completely unsuited to his game.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

MT1 gets a bad rap. His first year at NU he averaged 10.2 points and 5 rebounds. His second year he retired after 3 games due to a medical (heart?) condition. The guy was a decent Center by NU standards, playing in an offense completely unsuited to his game.

A medical condition? I seem to recall it being a difference of opinion regarding his role.

 

[NJCat]

A medical condition? I seem to recall it being a difference of opinion regarding his role.

Perhaps. But Insidenu.com corroborate the irregular heartbeat thesis.

https://www.insidenu.com/2012/1/30/...f-the-northwestern-big-men-under-bill-carmody

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Perhaps. But Insidenu.com corroborate the irregular heartbeat thesis.

https://www.insidenu.com/2012/1/30/...f-the-northwestern-big-men-under-bill-carmody

He might have had one. But I’m pretty certain that’s not why he quit the team.

 

[hdhntr1]

We disagree on the X's and O's but nothing we can really debate. Hard to conclude if it's the system or the players without sitting down and going through the games.

With respect to recruiting, after you get past the top 100 plus players, you need to find ballplayers that fit your system. Bo Ryan did a great job of that as well as player development. Rap was recruited on his size and potential. Falzon on his shooting ability and size (which I completely get). Brown based on his scoring ability. Benson on being big. Ash on being athletic. None is a complete ballplayer and none is a B1G starter. Falzon is the only one that arguably is a rotation guy. There are lots of kids out there with lower recruiting rankings that would have helped the team more. I know that injuries played a factor but Collins needs to do a better job of identifying players that can succeed in his system, whatever their rankings are. Or start recruiting all top 100 players and let the chips fall where they may.

It was his first round as an NCAA P5 HC. And he didn't have a group of 5 stars waiting on the bench to fill in the gaps like he may have been used to at DUKE. Ash and Vassar were in one of his first recruiting classes when we were still suffering from the difficulty of recruiting to NU. Falzon started his Frosh year and has been injured since. RAP was injured the whole time his was here. Brown has the energy etc but his game doesn't really fit in the BIG. Benson has been a little slow to develop as Bigs often are, partly because of who was a head of him but definitely saw signs at the end of the year

CCC has made some mistakes and I think he was was missing some stability that Baldwin brought but I think he will learn.

 

[hdhntr1]

This x1000000

I’ve been beating this drum for a long time. Collins gets a lot of nice players, but he needs (to borrow a phrase from Fitz) some “dudes.” Dare I say — like Demps, or Crawford? I just never really saw Lindsey or Law take their guys off the dribble in Big Ten play. Here’s hoping Lathon, Kopp and Turner can do it, and Nance too eventually.

His guard recruiting has been sort of hit and miss so far, BMac was obviously a hit, but Vassar and Brown were not. Ash is servicable but to date, not a star. Part of that may be the LG role rather than PG and SG. Gaines looks like he has potential but he needs better shooting from fistance and we need a lot out of Lathon but if we are going to attack the basket like we need to we really need at least another solid guard and maybe a 2/3

 

[hdhntr1]

I guess I’m not terribly surprised, but those seem more like technicalities than strong talking points.

Michael Thompson “had a Duke offer” in that he transferred from Duke to NU, but that was after playing a grand total of 70 minutes in his two-year Duke career. Reggie Hearn is “NBA talent” in that he’s played in an NBA game, but that was a grand total of three minutes in two games after grinding it out for six years in the G-League.

Like you say, technicalities. MT was "recruited" only after he chose to leave DUKE so BC did not out recruit DUKE for his services

And you could ask whether Hearn was actually ever recruited here. He did come as walk on and I don't know if BB had the preferred walk on like FB does.

 

[hdhntr1]

I fear you are not understanding what I am saying. I am not saying that we need to change our style of play and recruit a bunch of guys who will go one on one all the time. And I have no idea how being able to beat a guy off the dribble and creating your own shot is related to being experienced or playing defense.

I fully expect that we will continue to run a structured offense. But at every level of basketball, you need to have at least a couple of players that are capable of creating their own shots to have consistent success. Even the best run offenses are not going to create wide open looks every possession, particularly against good defenses. I watched the title game and Michigan had several layups and good shots created simply by one of their players beating the defender off the dribble. One of the primary purposes of a good offense is to create mismatches. Getting a smaller defender on a bigger player and vice versa. If you don't have the players capable of taking advantage of those mismatches, your offense is severely limited. Not to mention all of the wide open looks that are created when a defense has to rotate to help stop penetration. It is also much easier to defend a team on the perimeter if you are not concerned about penetration. Finally, one of the issues with our offense has been an inability to get to the foul line. It's a great way to score points when your outside shot is not falling and driving to the basket is the best way to draw fouls.

We struggled last year because McIntosh's shot was not falling and he was really the only player that could get into the lane and create opportunities for other players. Too often, he was stuck holding the ball with less than 10 seconds on the shot clock. We need more players that can break down a defense in the flow of the offense or create space to get their own shot.

The getting their own shots would be nice but what really need is guys who can drive just enough to draw defenders enough to open someone else up and the ability to get the ball to them with one or two passes.

 

[hdhntr1]

...with a straight face you're trying to suggest that NU out recruited Duke for a player? Duke tossed a player onto the trash heap and NU collected what was left. Which wasn't a lot IIRC.

That's like me saying I made out with Scarlett Johanson because I got a kiss on the cheek from a maitre de at a restaurant she frequents because when my wife made the reservation she noted "husband's birthday."

Yeah, I made out with Scarlett Johanson but none of you schmucks did.

Especially if the MaitreDe was a male

 

[NJCat]

Ash and Vassar were in one of his first recruiting classes when we were still suffering from the difficulty of recruiting to NU.

Minor note....Vassar was in his first recruiting class, with Scottie, Vic and Bryant. Ash was in Class #2. Class #1 was pretty successful in terms of production on the court, the best of his 4 to date. Hopefully Class #5 will top it.

 

[Medill90]

Like you say, technicalities. MT was "recruited" only after he chose to leave DUKE so BC did not out recruit DUKE for his services

And you could ask whether Hearn was actually ever recruited here. He did come as walk on and I don't know if BB had the preferred walk on like FB does.

According to his multi-part article, Reggie Hearn came to NU to study Psychology. His academic bona fides were real and his interest was the curriculum, not sports.

He then got on campus and coaches and players saw him -- and others -- playing pick up and invited him to try out. He wrote that he was in horrible shape and struggled with the tryout. I recall there was one other player who was a contender to walk on and Reggie was a bit surprised when he got the nod. He was then late for the first couple of morning practices because of an alarm clock issue and Carmody gently pulled him aside and asked what was going on. The exchange as Hearn wrote it displayed the humanity that Carmody possessed and the Wilsonian manner in which he treated the players as adults.