Fire O’Neil

[gocatsgo2003]

So why was Siemian put in the game whenever we needed to make a comeback?

The whole concept was to play to the team’s strengths whenever possible. The cost/benefit would change in certain game situations.

I’ve been Team Trevor from literally the day he walked on campus, but I understand what the staff was trying to do in 2012.

 

[peatymeanis]

The whole concept was to play to the team’s strengths whenever possible. The cost/benefit would change in certain game situations.

I’ve been Team Trevor from literally the day he walked on campus, but I understand what the staff was trying to do in 2012.

Look if Colter’s arm was good then he would just have played the whole game given his mobility advantage over Trevor. The reason cost/benefit changed is because there were some things Colter wasn’t good at! And those things include chucking the ball down the field with zip. It’s not a knock on him - he was a good player for us but he had his limitations. I don’t know why people seem offended by that fact.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Look if Colter’s arm was good then he would just have played the whole game given his mobility advantage over Trevor. The reason cost/benefit changed is because there were some things Colter wasn’t good at! And those things include chucking the ball down the field with zip. It’s not a knock on him - he was a good player for us but he had his limitations. I don’t know why people seem offended by that fact.

And there were some things Trevor wasn’t good at, which is why the QB platoon worked.

 

[phatcat]

I actually like sports.

I like the Tin Man

 

[CatManTrue]

I actually like sports.

I love lamp.

 

[CatManTrue]

If Colter was a great qb, why was it that his only shot to play in the NFL was as a WR? Come on we all watched those games. He was magic on his feet. But when he threw balls they were ducks. Seems his high school shoulder injury sapped his arm strength. Fantastic competitor and great overall player but compared to our more traditional gun slingers like Kafka, Bacher, he had a lot of deficiencies throwing the ball.

Dear Illannoy troll,

Eric Crouch only had a shot as a WR in the NFL. He was pretty effective as a collegiate option QB, winning the Heisman and all.

Now go back to your board and lament your loss to Rutgers.

 

[peatymeanis]

Dear Illannoy troll,

Eric Crouch only had a shot as a WR in the NFL. He was pretty effective as a collegiate option QB, winning the Heisman and all.

Now go back to your board and lament your loss to Rutgers.

Aww are you still mad I hurt your feelings online?

 

[peatymeanis]

And there were some things Trevor wasn’t good at, which is why the QB platoon worked.

The things Trevor were good at are what you want out of your qb traditionally. Which is why Trevor is playing in the nfl and Colter isn’t.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

The things Trevor were good at are what you want out of your qb traditionally. Which is why Trevor is playing in the nfl and Colter isn’t.

We didn’t have the offensive line to run a “traditional” offense 100% of the time in 2012.

 

[NUChicago]

We didn’t have the offensive line to run a “traditional” offense 100% of the time in 2012.

Do we in 2021???

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Do we in 2021???

Not really. Hence our issues consistently scoring points.

 

[Gladeskat]

The things Trevor were good at are what you want out of your qb traditionally. Which is why Trevor is playing in the nfl and Colter isn’t.

In 2012, there was a huge difference in Venric Mark's run production running the option with Colter in the game versus when Trevor was in the game, particularly during the Big Ten season. A productive running game is something you want out of your offense traditionally in college. Colter provided that along with excellent accuracy on short (<15 yards) passes. Trevor provided better arm strength and accuracy on long passes and often came into games when we were behind.

 

[phatcat]

The things Trevor were good at are what you want out of your qb traditionally. Which is why Trevor is playing in the nfl and Colter isn’t.

You will find an ardent supporter in ECat for your Trevor > Kain stuff. Siemian was a better pure passer. The thing is, a lot of us really LIKE Kain Colter. Here's why:

• gave up his redshirt year when Persa when down, led us to an actually respectable showing vs TTU in the bowl.
• Played Swiss army knife in 2011, responsible for more TD's than Persa with a combined 18 rushing/passing/receiving.
• Shared time with Siemian in 2012, threw for more TD's in 1/3 fewer attempts, led the best offense we've had since 2005. Still did the multi-role thing. I kinda remember people saying we should put him at DB and have him play both ways.
• Didn't play as much in 2013 due to injuries and Trevor blossoming. Let's see...checks the record...we went 5-7, losing 7 in a row. I checked the game stats and Trevor played predominantly in most of the losses except Ioa and sharing OSU. Trevor did lead us to the ILL win. 2014 - Trevor's big chance! How'd we do? oh, 5-7
• Kain goes on to try to get support for the indentured servants aka cfb players. Good cause. I support him.
• As I understand it, his life is now a wreck, which may be, in part, due to CTE. He is a small guy. Opponents ripped at him to get him out of the game.
• He gave us everything, and we left him with nothing. Go ahead and crap on him and call him an 'athletic freak'. Kain was a baller. I still have his jersey.

I'm very happy for Trevor, and I hope his NFL success doesn't come at the cost of his health. He is, by all reports, a great guy. For sure, we needed him as QB 1A during 2012/13.

 

[peatymeanis]

You will find an ardent supporter in ECat for your Trevor > Kain stuff. Siemian was a better pure passer. The thing is, a lot of us really LIKE Kain Colter. Here's why:

• gave up his redshirt year when Persa when down, led us to an actually respectable showing vs TTU in the bowl.
• Played Swiss army knife in 2011, responsible for more TD's than Persa with a combined 18 rushing/passing/receiving.
• Shared time with Siemian in 2012, threw for more TD's in 1/3 fewer attempts, led the best offense we've had since 2005. Still did the multi-role thing. I kinda remember people saying we should put him at DB and have him play both ways.
• Didn't play as much in 2013 due to injuries and Trevor blossoming. Let's see...checks the record...we went 5-7, losing 7 in a row. I checked the game stats and Trevor played predominantly in most of the losses except Ioa and sharing OSU. Trevor did lead us to the ILL win. 2014 - Trevor's big chance! How'd we do? oh, 5-7
• Kain goes on to try to get support for the indentured servants aka cfb players. Good cause. I support him.
• As I understand it, his life is now a wreck, which may be, in part, due to CTE. He is a small guy. Opponents ripped at him to get him out of the game.
• He gave us everything, and we left him with nothing. Go ahead and crap on him and call him an 'athletic freak'. Kain was a baller. I still have his jersey.

I'm very happy for Trevor, and I hope his NFL success doesn't come at the cost of his health. He is, by all reports, a great guy. For sure, we needed him as QB 1A during 2012/13.

Who's crapping on him? He was a good player for us but we needed Trevor to come in and handle the traditional qb duties when the game called for it because of his limitations. Nobody denigrated his character or his sacrifice for the program. Good player? Yes. Good qb? No.

And please don't pull out a single season's team record as a definitive judgment on a player's ability. We all know that's misleading. Clayton Thorson was really bad his freshman year (way way way worse than Trevor in 2014) but the team still had a great record.

 

[peatymeanis]

We didn’t have the offensive line to run a “traditional” offense 100% of the time in 2012.

Ok? And how does that make Colter a good qb? He had special athleticism that mitigated negative aspects of our team composition. But when we needed someone else to make specific actual qb plays like, you know, throwing the ball down the field, we put in Trevor. Again, Colter was a good player for us who helped us win. But that still doesn't mean he was a good qb when he lacked one of the core skills required of the position.

 

[DaCat]

Ok? And how does that make Colter a good qb? He had special athleticism that mitigated negative aspects of our team composition. But when we needed someone else to make specific actual qb plays like, you know, throwing the ball down the field, we put in Trevor. Again, Colter was a good player for us who helped us win. But that still doesn't mean he was a good qb when he lacked one of the core skills required of the position.

Give it a rest, oh meaty one. Colter actually won games for us as a QB. His short passing game was excellent, his medium passing was okay. Not the worst QB we ever had.

 

[Turk]

OMG, the sky is falling.
We're doomed.
Run for your lives.
We're all going to die.

Turk, you're killin me. Go get a happy meal, Bro.

I love the happy meals at chick fil a. You can trade in the toy for a ice cream cone.

 

[NJCat]

I love the happy meals at chick fil a. You can trade in the toy for a ice cream cone.

Not on Sunday.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Ok? And how does that make Colter a good qb? He had special athleticism that mitigated negative aspects of our team composition. But when we needed someone else to make specific actual qb plays like, you know, throwing the ball down the field, we put in Trevor. Again, Colter was a good player for us who helped us win. But that still doesn't mean he was a good qb when he lacked one of the core skills required of the position.

Zone read is most definitely an “actual QB play.” This isn’t 1963.

 

[stpaulcat]

Zone read is most definitely an “actual QB play.” This isn’t 1963.

Coincidental that 1963 was the last time NU was number one in the nation?

 

[Gladeskat]

Clayton Thorson was really bad his freshman year (way way way worse than Trevor in 2014) but the team still had a great record.

He was so bad that he never cost us a game in 2015 but instead helped us win 10 games with his running (SU, UNL) and his secure ball handling, even under adverse conditions (UW).

 

[usopen30]

My only thought is that Hunter was incrementally showing progress enough in practice that there was increased hope it would more frequently transfer to Saturday. He remains the most physically skilled QB we have ever had on campus, so understand it to some degree.

Would be a nice ending to his so-far disappointing story at NU if somehow (i.e. magically) HJ comes off the bench sometime in the remaining 4 games and moves the offense down the field. Short, quick passes and designed qb runs. Saw some bright spots vs MSU in game 1. Hopefully Coach Jake , Fitz and mainly HJ can resurrect that before he leaves.

 

[TheC]

You will find an ardent supporter in ECat for your Trevor > Kain stuff. Siemian was a better pure passer. The thing is, a lot of us really LIKE Kain Colter. Here's why:

• gave up his redshirt year when Persa when down, led us to an actually respectable showing vs TTU in the bowl.
• Played Swiss army knife in 2011, responsible for more TD's than Persa with a combined 18 rushing/passing/receiving.
• Shared time with Siemian in 2012, threw for more TD's in 1/3 fewer attempts, led the best offense we've had since 2005. Still did the multi-role thing. I kinda remember people saying we should put him at DB and have him play both ways.
• Didn't play as much in 2013 due to injuries and Trevor blossoming. Let's see...checks the record...we went 5-7, losing 7 in a row. I checked the game stats and Trevor played predominantly in most of the losses except Ioa and sharing OSU. Trevor did lead us to the ILL win. 2014 - Trevor's big chance! How'd we do? oh, 5-7
• Kain goes on to try to get support for the indentured servants aka cfb players. Good cause. I support him.
• As I understand it, his life is now a wreck, which may be, in part, due to CTE. He is a small guy. Opponents ripped at him to get him out of the game.
• He gave us everything, and we left him with nothing. Go ahead and crap on him and call him an 'athletic freak'. Kain was a baller. I still have his jersey.

I'm very happy for Trevor, and I hope his NFL success doesn't come at the cost of his health. He is, by all reports, a great guy. For sure, we needed him as QB 1A during 2012/13.

Plus, his seasons with Venric were really the last time the NU offense was fun to watch except for an occasional big run from JJTBC.

 

[peatymeanis]

Zone read is most definitely an “actual QB play.” This isn’t 1963.

Darren McFadden was a great qb for Arkansas

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Darren McFadden was a great qb for Arkansas

The offense moved pretty good when he was a Wildcat QB, no? That’s the whole goal.

 

[Katatonic]

Whoa. Siemian, I agree. But Colter never a good QB?!?!?!?

101/149/872y/68%/8 td, 4 piks in 2012; 63/80/577y/ 79% (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) in 2013.

Oh, by the way, nevermind that he was virtually unstoppable running with the ball... last I checked he did that from the QB position.

Dinking and dunking really helps the completion %.

Problem with Colter is that he couldn't throw it down field into a small window.

The illustrious defenses of the likes of Army and Vandy managed to contain Colter's running (don't need great physical talent on D, but just be disciplined).

Denard Robinson was a more dynamic runner than Colter, who was always in the Heisman talk while he ran for big yardage in the early part the season schedule, but talks of a Heisman would inevitably quiet down once he faced the D's of Wisconsin, dOSU, etc.

Trevor has already far surpassed Troy Smith's pro career. In fact, no OSU QB's have done much in the NFL. But they sure know how to win college football games, and their lack of NFL success doesn't seem to hurt OSU's QB recruiting.

Reason for that is because prior to Day, the dOSU head coaches looked for athletes who played QB and not passing QBs.

One Day took the helm, that's when dOSU started to get the top passing QBs and get even more of the top receivers (this is where scheme helps in recruitment).

Who knows?

Maybe dOSU would have won another NC if they had picked Burrow (altho Haskins was also a passing QB).

Under Day, dOSU has gotten 2 QBs drafted in the 1st round and expect a couple more in the near future.

 

[Katatonic]

Because the NU offensive line was crap and couldn’t pass block anyone in 2012, so the only chance was to put out a run-heavy scheme with him and Venric.

That really doesn't make much sense.

The O-line is so bad that you need to go with a running QB (basically, a RB playing the QB position), but when you're behind, you stick a passing QB behind said crap O-line when the opposing D is geared to pass rush?

Plus, the O-line during the 2012 season was better than for 2013 (and 2014) when there was less of a platoon.

Think the bigger reasons why they went to the platoon system is bc (1) McC's "read and react" system requires experience and for both the QB and receivers to be on the same page (think Siemian was better able to handle it than the receivers at the time) and (2) Colter having more game experience.

The whole concept was to play to the team’s strengths whenever possible. The cost/benefit would change in certain game situations.

I’ve been Team Trevor from literally the day he walked on campus, but I understand what the staff was trying to do in 2012.

When it came to being on Team Trevor - you were pretty lukewarm.

And there were some things Trevor wasn’t good at, which is why the QB platoon worked.

So, why didn't they stick to it more for the 2013 season?

And while Trevor by no means is a runner, he is an underrated scrambling QB, which the staff failed to utilize until towards the end of his NU career.

You can't tell me that the O-line was any worse than the M00N game where Siemian was getting pummeled by UM's pass rush (McC's and likely Fitz's "bright idea" was for Trevor to take snaps even further back which did nothing).

But hey, once they let Trevor loose (allowing him to break out of the pocket), we saw 2 of the most impressive drives an NU QB has made.

Like I've always stated, didn't have a problem with the platoon, but did have an issue with the divide (should have been 70% Siemian and 30% Colter).

Also took issue with when they would make a change at QB.

For example, in that back and forth dOSU loss in 2013, Trevor led the Cats to a go ahead TD in the 4th Q, but the Bucknuts retook the lead with their own TD.

Instead of sticking with the hot hand (Mark was making more of an impact as a pass catcher that game), the staff switched back to Colter and the O failed to score.

 

[Gladeskat]

I recall Trevor being injured most of 2013 (heal) and 2014 (ankle, then ACL).

The RO enables the QB/RB to be in effect another blocker. NU couldn't run the RO with TS very effectively. However, Colter was excellent at running the RO behind a mediocre OL.

 

[stpaulcat]

That really doesn't make much sense.

The O-line is so bad that you need to go with a running QB (basically, a RB playing the QB position), but when you're behind, you stick a passing QB behind said crap O-line when the opposing D is geared to pass rush?

Plus, the O-line during the 2012 season was better than for 2013 (and 2014) when there was less of a platoon.

Think the bigger reasons why they went to the platoon system is bc (1) McC's "read and react" system requires experience and for both the QB and receivers to be on the same page (think Siemian was better able to handle it than the receivers at the time) and (2) Colter having more game experience.




When it came to being on Team Trevor - you were pretty lukewarm.




So, why didn't they stick to it more for the 2013 season?

And while Trevor by no means is a runner, he is an underrated scrambling QB, which the staff failed to utilize until towards the end of his NU career.

You can't tell me that the O-line was any worse than the M00N game where Siemian was getting pummeled by UM's pass rush (McC's and likely Fitz's "bright idea" was for Trevor to take snaps even further back which did nothing).

But hey, once they let Trevor loose (allowing him to break out of the pocket), we saw 2 of the most impressive drives an NU QB has made.

Like I've always stated, didn't have a problem with the platoon, but did have an issue with the divide (should have been 70% Siemian and 30% Colter).

Also took issue with when they would make a change at QB.

For example, in that back and forth dOSU loss in 2013, Trevor led the Cats to a go ahead TD in the 4th Q, but the Bucknuts retook the lead with their own TD.

Instead of sticking with the hot hand (Mark was making more of an impact as a pass catcher that game), the staff switched back to Colter and the O failed to score.

"Also took issue with when they would make a change at QB." Yes, that was truly baffling. Was that the beginning of the demise of McCall? Or was that on Fitz? We will never know the answer to that question, but if we were to, it might answer questions about the present. You certainly have an excellent memory for NU football.

 

[stpaulcat]

I recall Trevor being injured most of 2013 (heal) and 2014 (ankle, then ACL).

The RO enables the QB/RB to be in effect another blocker. NU couldn't run the RO with TS very effectively. However, Colter was excellent at running the RO behind a mediocre OL.

Yes, he was injured throughout much of that time. Shortly after the 2014 season, I saw him in the restaurant at the Evanston Hilton garden Inn in a cast and on crutches.

 

[Katatonic]

I recall Trevor being injured most of 2013 (heal) and 2014 (ankle, then ACL).

The RO enables the QB/RB to be in effect another blocker. NU couldn't run the RO with TS very effectively. However, Colter was excellent at running the RO behind a mediocre OL.

Well aware of Trevor's injuries.

But he was healthy for the Cal game and most of the game against NIU (injured on a late hit with about 3 mins remaining in the game).

The staff could have used Trevor's scrambling ability to add another element to the O in those games, but they didn't.

Thought he was still limited physically (rationale why they didn't move the pocket during the M00N game), but as it turns out, that wasn't the case, but in their typical fashion, was too slow in making adjustments (finally making the adjustment in the 4th Q).

Speaking of the M00N game, the game against UM (didn't see it) seemed to be a somewhat facsimile of it, at least for the 1st half.

Having a passing QB who can scramble/extend plays with his legs would have helped.

 

[EvanstonCat]

We didn’t have the offensive line to run a “traditional” offense 100% of the time in 2012.

Note, we had an OC in place almost as bad as our current DC.

Trevor would have done fine. Hell, he had to play behind that Denver OL that was no better.

He's not a complete statue and what we effectively did by putting our NFL caliber QB on the bench was failed to play two players who could have helped us at their most impactful positions, because while Colter sucked as a QB, he was a dynamic playmaker that could have upgraded our WR corp as well.

I chalk it all up to McCall genius.

 

[EvanstonCat]

He was so bad that he never cost us a game in 2015 but instead helped us win 10 games with his running (SU, UNL) and his secure ball handling, even under adverse conditions (UW).

Sheesh. How anyone credits 2015 or any of our winning seasons to our inept offenses under McCall (with or without Colter) and not to the genius that was Mike Hankwitz, I will never know.

We are now seeing the product of not having EITHER a decent offense NOR a high caliber defense to cover it up.

No more Mike Hankwitz to save us.

 

[Gladeskat]

Sheesh. How anyone credits 2015 or any of our winning seasons to our inept offenses under McCall (with or without Colter) and not to the genius that was Mike Hankwitz, I will never know.

We are now seeing the product of not having EITHER a decent offense NOR a high caliber defense to cover it up.

No more Mike Hankwitz to save us.

Off-topic and ridiculous.

ECat +2

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Well aware of Trevor's injuries.

But he was healthy for the Cal game and most of the game against NIU (injured on a late hit with about 3 mins remaining in the game).

The staff could have used Trevor's scrambling ability to add another element to the O in those games, but they didn't.

Thought he was still limited physically (rationale why they didn't move the pocket during the M00N game), but as it turns out, that wasn't the case, but in their typical fashion, was too slow in making adjustments (finally making the adjustment in the 4th Q).

Speaking of the M00N game, the game against UM (didn't see it) seemed to be a somewhat facsimile of it, at least for the 1st half.

Having a passing QB who can scramble/extend plays with his legs would have helped.

Trevor didn’t have “scrambling ability.” He could move OK in the pocket, wasn’t a threat with his legs. That’s why his whole “4.38 40” comment was so damn funny.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

That really doesn't make much sense.

The O-line is so bad that you need to go with a running QB (basically, a RB playing the QB position), but when you're behind, you stick a passing QB behind said crap O-line when the opposing D is geared to pass rush?

Plus, the O-line during the 2012 season was better than for 2013 (and 2014) when there was less of a platoon.

Think the bigger reasons why they went to the platoon system is bc (1) McC's "read and react" system requires experience and for both the QB and receivers to be on the same page (think Siemian was better able to handle it than the receivers at the time) and (2) Colter having more game experience.

Sure it does. The ball control, run-heavy offense led by Kain was our best chance at winning most of the time because the whole concept was to control the game and time of possession while playing with the lead. If that didn’t work and we needed to catch up, then we had to throw the ball more and those situations played more to Trevor’s strengths.

When it came to being on Team Trevor - you were pretty lukewarm.

I literally recruited Trevor to NU and it was plain to see he had a different level of arm talent from day one. “Team Trevor” was literally a running joke in the football offices because of how much I talked the kid up.

So, why didn't they stick to it more for the 2013 season?

And while Trevor by no means is a runner, he is an underrated scrambling QB, which the staff failed to utilize until towards the end of his NU career.

You can't tell me that the O-line was any worse than the M00N game where Siemian was getting pummeled by UM's pass rush (McC's and likely Fitz's "bright idea" was for Trevor to take snaps even further back which did nothing).

But hey, once they let Trevor loose (allowing him to break out of the pocket), we saw 2 of the most impressive drives an NU QB has made.

Like I've always stated, didn't have a problem with the platoon, but did have an issue with the divide (should have been 70% Siemian and 30% Colter).

Also took issue with when they would make a change at QB.

For example, in that back and forth dOSU loss in 2013, Trevor led the Cats to a go ahead TD in the 4th Q, but the Bucknuts retook the lead with their own TD.

Instead of sticking with the hot hand (Mark was making more of an impact as a pass catcher that game), the staff switched back to Colter and the O failed to score.

Because Trevor can’t actually scramble and had trouble staying healthy.

 

[peatymeanis]

those situations played more to Trevor’s strengths.

Those situations = moving the ball through the air effectively to score aka one of the primary job descriptions of a qb. Yes I agree that was more suited to Trevor which is why he is and was a better qb than Colter.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Those situations = moving the ball through the air effectively to score aka one of the primary job descriptions of a qb. Yes I agree that was more suited to Trevor which is why he is and was a better qb than Colter.

Those situations where we needed to try to push the ball down the field quicker rather than controlling the game through our rushing offense.

”Quarterback” needn’t be “guy who throws ball down the field,” but it does need to be “guy who moves the offense down the field efficiently.”

 

[peatymeanis]

Those situations where we needed to try to push the ball down the field quicker rather than controlling the game through our rushing offense.

”Quarterback” needn’t be “guy who throws ball down the field,” but it does need to be “guy who moves the offense down the field efficiently.”

Good quarterbacks can do both. Good quarterbacks also play the entire game. If you're getting benched as a qb when your team is down in the 4th, that means there's something in your skillset that is a significant weakness. If your team can't rely on you as a qb to lead them in a comeback in the 4th quarter because your arm is weak, that makes you not a very good qb.

 

[mountaindrew]

”Quarterback” needn’t be “guy who throws ball down the field,” but it does need to be “guy who moves the offense down the field efficiently.”

EXACTLY. Which is why Colter was an EXCELLENT QB. Period.