I haven't even seen the game yet so I don't know how bad his shots were. If our shooters have wide open 3-point shots, they should take them. If they were beyond his range, then he shouldn't take them. I feel like I need to keep reminding people that 3-point shots are good shots to take. Ryan Greer should take more of them. Not just when he's absolutely wide open. That's my biggest criticism of him. If Ryan Young is on the floor and he has a mismatch, we should try to work the ball to him. He's the one guy on the team that hits a high percentage of 2-point shots. Everyone else is at or right around 50% from 2-point range. Which is the same as Buie going 4 for 12 from 3-point range. Through the years, I have just seen too many possessions under all of our coaches where we pass the ball around for 30 seconds and then hoist a bad shot to beat the shot clock. I'd rather take an open 3-point shot early in the shot clock.
Game Thread for NU vs. Georgia
- Thread starter lou v
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Pretty definitively the better team tonight. I really like Simmons’ basketball instincts. Audige will help our depth, add some punch, and take some burden off Buie in particular. Young continues to be an adept post player whose moves are not what teams are used to seeing in this era.
Promising effort. Let’s see it again against Wake.
Promising effort. Let’s see it again against Wake.
Easily amused, perhaps, but very generous indeed. I thought it was the Newark Kazoo Band.
Collins was really happy with the D from Simmons at the end of the game.
Totally agree. I too complain about him being a ball hog, but really, what choice does he have? To my untrained eye, it doesn't seem like we really run any plays on offense, and even if we do, they don't seem to be too effective. It seems we just see what the defense is doing and take what they give us, whether they are giving us anything or not. I long for the days of the backdoor cuts. Maybe we don't run our entire offense this way, but a few times a game might loosen things up a bit.
We run lots of pick and roll and dribble handoffs where are intended to generate switches on defense and create mismatches. Buie is not a great passer or particularly good at reading pick and rolls. He can definitely improve in his reads. But we do run sets for Young. He hands the ball off at the top of the key and then we rotate the ball to the side and Young slides down to get position under the basket. It's a pretty effective play for him and gets him the ball in good low post position. And our guys do cut to the basket frequently. Maybe Carmody taught it better. Eventually, though, defenses get used to that and it seldom produces anything in tight games where the defense is locked in.
Boo is light years better this year than last year. He has stones to take the shots too. Players miss shots. My beef was this team didn’t have players to take the last shot. Everyone deferred. Boo has stones and Pete is showing leadership we haven’t seen before. We will live and die by these two players. Everyone is slotting into their roles. Great job CCC.
My only gripe with Buie, who played a good game overall, is that he was shooting early in the shot clock when we had a 15 point lead. Need to run some clock in that situation.
But he played well. We won 70-50 when Buie was on the court.
Nance 45-45
Simmons 50-36
Beran 25-29
Greer 49-39
Young 60-41
Roper 14-23
Berry 51-38
Williams 26-9
Williams is surprising me with the intangibles...
But he played well. We won 70-50 when Buie was on the court.
Nance 45-45
Simmons 50-36
Beran 25-29
Greer 49-39
Young 60-41
Roper 14-23
Berry 51-38
Williams 26-9
Williams is surprising me with the intangibles...
You haven’t even watched the game? Dude you’re killing me. 😂
You won’t get any argument from me that three-pointers rule the game now. But not all “open threes” are created equal, and you won’t catch me pretending that all our open threes are good ones. When the other team is getting momentum and you bring the ball down court and jack one up from several feet beyond the line without even trying to make them work on D, well, that’s a turnover. While Boo’s decision-making is way better than previous years, there’s still a hero ball mentality to his game that he just can’t shake.
You guys need more free drinks if you are still B'ing about Boo. Dude is solid. Win by him, die by him. Glorified juice thompson. Him, Nance, young are good fits. Berry needs to stop being soft and man up like his father taught him. Beran is too soft. The young guys look decent. And Audige is solid. When is he coming back?
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I just watched the game. He played a really good game. I was absolutely shocked that the takeaway was that Buie was forcing shots. He may have taken one bad shot and may have take one or two when he could have taken more time off the clock. Otherwise, he absolutely shot when he was supposed to shoot. And he got his teammates good looks. The several feet beyond the line thing is just silly. That's where players shoot from these days. Get used to it. Almost all of his 3-point attempts were from about the same distance. You want to know what a turnover is? It's when you get the ball stolen like Ryan Greer did on back to back possessions, which really started the Georgia run. Poor Beran. Greer has gotten him posterized in back to back games. We had a run of 6 or 7 actual turnovers that swung the momentum of the game. That's the only reason that Georgia got back in the game. It had absolutely nothing to do with Buie taking open 3-point shots in the flow of the offense. Winning basketball is about hero ball. It's about good players making plays. Watch the final 4 and see if there aren't guys "forcing shots" on almost every possession in close games.
Buie isn't even a top-5 reason this team isn't better. And we're going to beat up his shot selection?
Yea, Buie has that ugly tendency to shoot the ball early in the shot clock. However, Collins has been around long enough that you should notice this is something he teaches. Buie isn't the only guard with this tendency. I know why it's taught, but I don't agree with it at all.
However, for every one of those stupid shots, Buie also finds the optimal pass in the rhythm of the offense that an average guard doesn't see. Watch how often Berry or Young come off a screen from the weak side of court to receive a pass in perfect shooting position. No indecision. No momentary hesitancy, allowing the defender to recover.
Buie isn't perfect. I'm not a fan of his defense either. Unfortunately, it's pretty clear that ugly, low percentage tear drop shot is also taught by this staff. It was also a BMac fav.
I can see the argument for Buie at the two, but a replacement at the the lead guard isn't on the roster. No, the defense of Greer and Buie doesn't allow them to play major minutes together against good teams.
So until that perfect lead guard is available, if you can't recognize how the offense runs FAR more smoothly with Buie while he's a top-2 scorer and the team's best outside threat, you might as well turn off the TV.
Yea, Buie has that ugly tendency to shoot the ball early in the shot clock. However, Collins has been around long enough that you should notice this is something he teaches. Buie isn't the only guard with this tendency. I know why it's taught, but I don't agree with it at all.
However, for every one of those stupid shots, Buie also finds the optimal pass in the rhythm of the offense that an average guard doesn't see. Watch how often Berry or Young come off a screen from the weak side of court to receive a pass in perfect shooting position. No indecision. No momentary hesitancy, allowing the defender to recover.
Buie isn't perfect. I'm not a fan of his defense either. Unfortunately, it's pretty clear that ugly, low percentage tear drop shot is also taught by this staff. It was also a BMac fav.
I can see the argument for Buie at the two, but a replacement at the the lead guard isn't on the roster. No, the defense of Greer and Buie doesn't allow them to play major minutes together against good teams.
So until that perfect lead guard is available, if you can't recognize how the offense runs FAR more smoothly with Buie while he's a top-2 scorer and the team's best outside threat, you might as well turn off the TV.
Who says the offense doesn't run better when he's in the game? I certainly didn't. I also have no problem when he shoots threes within the flow of the game because those are good looks in rhythm. What I can't stand is when he brings the ball up court and decides no one else is going to touch the ball, which, by my count, he did three times this game:
- :50 (1H)… 24 ft three. Brought the ball up, never bothered to get anyone involved. MISS. Hero Ball. Bad shot
- 17:15 (2H)… dribbles up court, takes a screen 30 ft from the basket and shoots from 27 ft away with 23 seconds on the shot clock. Never bothered getting anyone involved. MISS.
- 5:20… dribbles it up, dribbles for 16 seconds, never passes, takes a step back 18-footer against a guy with 6 inches on him. MISS
There was also one at the end of the first half where he decided he was gonna take the last shot so why bother making the defense work. He walked it up, forced it and got called for a charge, leading Crispin to say: “This is what I’m talking about. You walk it up and everyone in the building knows where the ball is going. Where if you bring it up quickly and get into some action, the defense can’t just key on one guy.”
The other thing I can't stand is when he decides he wants to shoot so he flares out to 6 or 7 feet behind the three-point line. Of course those are "open looks," Boo -- no one is gonna guard you out there. They'll take those odds all day. Like at 9:54 2H. He sets a pick in the block then runs out to his spot seven feet behind the line and jacks it up. The defender didn’t even close out because, why bother? I know 3-pointers are a part of the game -- the analytics support it and that's fine with me -- but the analytics also say "hey dude, you're a sub 30% shooter from 25 feet and beyond so maybe don't take those, they're wasted possessions." And by my count he was 2-7 on deep, deep threes (28%).
Is he the best we have? Yes. Do I think he's a net positive for the team? Yes. Is he going to be criticized more heavily b/c he's one of our best guys? Yes. (Same for Audige) Do I accept these bad decisions are going to keep happening? Yes. Do I hate them with a passion and wish he'd realize he's not Steph or Dame Dolla? Absolutely.
The crispness of the passing is the most noticeable difference this year versus last year.
The other big thing is the enthusiasm from the bench. This bench is more focused on the game than any other team I’ve seen. They call out screens on D, remind the guys on the floor about substitutions, point out shooters. This team is fun to watch.
I have to say, this is commendable research. I hope the staff steals it and relays it to Boo! Always room for improvement, even among our top players.
Here is my amateur take watching Boo play last night....
First, he can hit the three and from distance. But there are good and bad shots for Boo. The good shot is when Boo can catch a pass with some space, square up to the basket and calmly take the shot. In these situations, he can go out to 25 feet and beyond and is quite effective. The bad shot is when Boo starts with the ball in his hands and is dribbling around and then decides to pull up off the dribble because he created a little separation with his man. He often misses those shots and they are the ones that drive us crazy.
The conclusion from this might be that Boo would be better as a 2-guard. In fact, he made some nice shots when he was in there with Greer and was playing off the ball. However, Greer really can't play point guard at this level if the defense decides to tighten up. In the first half, Georgia was playing kind of lazy and it allowed Greer space to operate. In the second half, the Georgia guards realized that Greer can't handle the ball well under pressure and they got up in his face. The Cats had to abandon Greer at the point and Boo went back to point as he was the only one who could handle the Georgia pressure (full or half court). So, my hope is that next season, this freshman 4-star point guard can take over right away and allow Boo to play more 2-guard. But this year, he really needs to have the ball in his hands.
He is leading the conference in assists. Moving him to the 2 takes away, or at least limits, one of his strengths. Keep the ball in his hands both this year and next in my opinion.
You guys are making good points about Buie. I thought he played well.
He was +20 last night (we outscored Georgia 70-50 when Buie was out there)
He and Young have some chemistry. Thats important.
If you are up 20, now 15, now 12, you want to run "some" time off the clock when you have the ball. Thats my only complaint and its fairly minor.
Also, as we saw last year, Greer and Buie had surprisingly positive results when paired in the backcourt. Greer doesn't have to bring the ball up the court. Buie does that and when they get into halfcourt, Greer can handle the ball more. Buie gets open for good looks and Greer and Young find him.
He was +20 last night (we outscored Georgia 70-50 when Buie was out there)
He and Young have some chemistry. Thats important.
If you are up 20, now 15, now 12, you want to run "some" time off the clock when you have the ball. Thats my only complaint and its fairly minor.
Also, as we saw last year, Greer and Buie had surprisingly positive results when paired in the backcourt. Greer doesn't have to bring the ball up the court. Buie does that and when they get into halfcourt, Greer can handle the ball more. Buie gets open for good looks and Greer and Young find him.
I didn’t look at the 3-point shots you reference but the shot at the end of the half was designed. He didn’t decide to do that. He was supposed to do that. Run down the clock and try to take the last shot. And if he goes 3 for 8, it’s efficient offense. That’s the great thing about 3-point shots. You don’t have to make as many. When he was out early in the game, Greer ran the offense. We passed the ball around and he ended up taking 2 mid-range jump shots that he missed. I’d rather take open 3-point shots. Anybody that has the ball in his hands as much as the lead guard in our offense is going to make poor decisions. McIntosh missed a ton of shots. Some of them were bad shots. We lived and died with his shooting in a lot of games. I don’t understand why it bothers people so much. The best NBA players take bad shots. That’s basketball. Our offense was really, really good yesterday with Buie on the court controlling the ball. We scored 78 points against an SEC team. Take away the stretch of turnovers and it would have been even better. He’s not a natural point guard but he’s come a long way.
I agree with all the facts but not your conclusion. The hope would be that when Audige comes back, he will soak up the attempts that are currently bad Buie shots. We can critique Chase's shot selection then ...
Steph Curry is the greatest shooter of all time, and capable of throwing shots up from anywhere.
Steph Curry is also a 12ish year pro, which means that everyone playing college basketball grew up watching him, and grew up chucking.
Kids used to impersonate Michael Jordan — but couldn’t replicate in air acrobatics with the frequency that they can replicate chucking it.
I like threes. It’s well-documented (somewhere, I won’t look it up) that set threes go in much more frequently than pull-up threes. Try to find the shooter with his feet set and when he’s open. By definition, that can’t be the guy bringing the ball up.
Run the offense, such as it is.
(I didn’t watch the game. As Boo goes, NU goes.)
(I feel like we haven’t celebrated the BooBerry backcourt enough. Now on clearance at Sam’s Club.)
First, let me clarify that I wasn't necessarily being critical of Buie. I think he is our most important player or at least in a close second to Nance. I also think, on the whole, he played really well last night. I also think he will need to play plenty of point guard during the next two seasons for the Cats. However, I think he can be really dangerous off the ball for stretches of games. He is a scorer. Scorers end up with the ball in their hands one way or the other. But off the ball, you can create plays for him where he gets open lanes and open looks by design, while still allowing him to dish those dimes when the D collapses.
There are a few keys to our success.
One is Young minutes + Nance minutes >= 55.
Boo and Berry "BooBerry" should be our primary backcourt, but Greer and Buie seem to have something going. (with Buie and Greer in the backcourt, we have outscored our last 2 opponents 82-59)
Collins is trying to figure out what to do with Kopp's old position - the small forward.
He has used Nance with Beran of course, but has yet to use Nance, Beran Williams.
He has not used Nance, Young, Williams together either.
So it appears that Collins sees Williams as a 4, not a 3.
He used Nance, Beran, Simmons for 20 minutes, but they've been outscored 40-30 in the two games.
Nance, Young, Simmons has worked, going 29-19 over about 13.5 minutes.
I like Nance with Young with Simmons. Two bigs free up Simmons to use his athleticism to get rebounds. When it is Nance, Beran, Simmons, we (presumably) get pushed around.
One is Young minutes + Nance minutes >= 55.
Boo and Berry "BooBerry" should be our primary backcourt, but Greer and Buie seem to have something going. (with Buie and Greer in the backcourt, we have outscored our last 2 opponents 82-59)
Collins is trying to figure out what to do with Kopp's old position - the small forward.
He has used Nance with Beran of course, but has yet to use Nance, Beran Williams.
He has not used Nance, Young, Williams together either.
So it appears that Collins sees Williams as a 4, not a 3.
He used Nance, Beran, Simmons for 20 minutes, but they've been outscored 40-30 in the two games.
Nance, Young, Simmons has worked, going 29-19 over about 13.5 minutes.
I like Nance with Young with Simmons. Two bigs free up Simmons to use his athleticism to get rebounds. When it is Nance, Beran, Simmons, we (presumably) get pushed around.
Great post. This summarizes why Boo drives me crazy. He'll make some really good plays, then randomly jack up a wild shot or try to dribble through 3 defenders. Against Georgia he took 21 shots (8-21, 4-12 3pt) while Berry was next with 11 shots and both Nance and Young had 8. Boo didn't have to take that many shots, as documented clearly by @NUera .
The one thing I am struggling with is what will it take for Beran to lose its starter status, or at least see his minutes drastically reduced. If the Nance at the five is so not negotiable, try Williams, what is there to lose compared to what Beran is doing?
I know yesterday he played “only” 16 minutes. And Young actually played 28. But that was driven by foul trouble. So much for some theories on the Young can’t handle more minutes.
CC likes the idea of five out, threats all over from beyond the arc. But this is just wishful thinking right now that Beran will click from 3. Bench him and let him earn his play time back. Yesterday was even more painful then usual. Kid works hard, but you have to earn it. And he’s not earning it.
I know yesterday he played “only” 16 minutes. And Young actually played 28. But that was driven by foul trouble. So much for some theories on the Young can’t handle more minutes.
CC likes the idea of five out, threats all over from beyond the arc. But this is just wishful thinking right now that Beran will click from 3. Bench him and let him earn his play time back. Yesterday was even more painful then usual. Kid works hard, but you have to earn it. And he’s not earning it.
To echo some of this thread, I like Boo a lot and it also drives me crazy that in pretty much every game he will just jack up two shots from 25+ feet as he brings the ball up, with no real rhythm, just chucking it - the first one is usually really early in the game. And then he'll usually play the rest of the game well.
I think the thing with Beran is that when he's good, he's pretty good in ways that we need on the court. and Collins wants that good Beran on the court, so he keeps giving him chances to be that version, but the results don't seem to favor it happening very often.
I think the thing with Beran is that when he's good, he's pretty good in ways that we need on the court. and Collins wants that good Beran on the court, so he keeps giving him chances to be that version, but the results don't seem to favor it happening very often.
Beran is getting us coverage on ESPN highlights!!!
Actually, I like that he sized up that Georgia guy last night and went after him hard on his dunk. He even drew blood, while fouling Oquendo. Nothing wrong with that. Just a slight miscalculation.
As for Beran vs Young, it has to be a psychological or philosophical issue for Collins.
Thru two games, here are the performance ratings and minutes for each guy in the rotation.
Performance rating = Our Points Scored / Our Points Allowed while each player has been on the court.
pretty table below!
Actually, I like that he sized up that Georgia guy last night and went after him hard on his dunk. He even drew blood, while fouling Oquendo. Nothing wrong with that. Just a slight miscalculation.
As for Beran vs Young, it has to be a psychological or philosophical issue for Collins.
Thru two games, here are the performance ratings and minutes for each guy in the rotation.
Performance rating = Our Points Scored / Our Points Allowed while each player has been on the court.
pretty table below!
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| Elyjah Williams | 1.76 | 20 |
| Ryan Greer | 1.21 | 48 |
| Boo Buie | 1.15 | 68 |
| Ryan Young | 1.14 | 43 |
| Casey Simmons | 1.12 | 42 |
| Ty Berry | 1.02 | 49 |
| Pete Nance | 1.01 | 58 |
| Robbie Beran | 0.91 | 38 |
| Julian Roper | 0.87 | 33 |
#1 for us a 2 for 1, which ended up getting us Greer's hero ball 3.
That was the intent of the shot at :50. I went back and looked at it and it ended up being 3 for 2 if you include the final shot.
#2 was part of the offense design. The Boo had a screen from Nance and then from Beran or Young. The shot from 25’ is a option that’s part of their plan.
Much of this is not Boo freelancing but it’s what he’s coached to do.
You keep talking about about 3-based offenses like it’s 2003 and you’re Mike D’Antoni. Dude, everyone knows the three ball is the way to go. But not all threes are created equal and it won’t be that way just because you say so. The team is way better when Boo or Berry or Pete or even Robbie Beran get a clean look within the flow of the offense than when Boo (or anyone) jacks up a shot from 27 feet because they’re “open.” There’s a reason they’re open — teams know FG% goes down significantly because the shooter ain’t Steph, Dame or Trae (or Duncan or Kyle Korver).
Our roster is infinitely more efficient from 21-25 feet and THAT should be the goal. Maybe you can live with shots from the edge of the coaches box or the logo - but I consider it a wasted possession because this team, this year, is NEVER gonna hit them at a 38% clip. Maybe in a game. But over a season? No way. Until the NCAA introduces a 4-point shot, deep, deep threes are worth just as much as a closer three and are way, way harder to hit, making them a losing strategy.
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There was plenty of time to find a better shot and get 2 for 1.
Also, Greer’s shot wasn’t “hero ball.” It was a run-of-the-mill desperation heave that went in. Happy to explain the term if you want.
I keep talking about it because I think a fair amount of folks on this board don't think it's the way to go. I think they would rather have 5 passes and a 17-foot jump shot from Jimmy Chitwood. Nobody criticizes Greer for passing up open 3's (he's a good shooter but he will only take wide open 3's). Nobody seems to have noticed that Nance is not good with his back to the basket from 5 plus feet out (it mainly produces turnovers and missed shots). Almost all of Buie's 3-point shots yesterday were from about the same distance 25 feet and in). He didn't shoot from the logo or the coaches box and I didn't say that was o.k. The criticism seemed to be that he took them too soon or didn't involve other players in the offense before taking them. I thought with the exception of 1 or 2 shots that he shot within the flow of the offense and took shots that he was supposed to take. He has the ball in his hands the majority of the game. Our offense was very effective yesterday and a big part of that was because he made good decisions and didn't turn the ball over. I was just shocked that the take away from the game was that he jacked up crazy shots.
One thing being ignored in the "33% from 3 is like 50% from 2" theory is that when you go inside you get a lot more fouls called on your opponent. Not sure how big the effect is, but getting frontcourt opponents to go sit on the bench is helpful. Shooting free throws at a 75% success rate adds a little more value to going inside.
I know there was a study that said shooting a 15 footer was sub-optimal.
I know there was a study that said shooting a 15 footer was sub-optimal.
That’s not my takeaway, it’s my criticism. You’re absolutely right that when he ran the offense and got his teammates involved he was great. I’m pointing out that when he doesn’t do that, when the “old Boo” appears, we typically don’t get good results. It’s the thing that annoys me time and again. Hogging the ball and poor 3pt shot selection.
We can take all the threes we want, but if we’re not taking good threes what’s the point? Let’s not ignore the stats. He was 4-12 overall from 3 and by my count 2-7 on deep threes (25 ft and beyond). So 40% on what I deem to be “good” threes and 28% on what I think are “bad” threes, usually early in the clock. To me those are turnovers. Maybe in wrong though. Maybe he had an odd night. I’ll try to make time to chart it next game too.
For the record I think 18 ft jumpshots by *anyone* are a waste. Why increase shot difficulty for less of a return? Greer was guilty of it yesterday, for sure. Either attack the basket or pass it up to a three point shooter.
Definitely missed the subtle “humor” in the last post. Definitely caught the snark in this one.
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