Gonzaga: how good are they REALLY?

[Rudolph]

For crying out aloud a title contender cannot possible struggle so badly to beat the #32 seeded team...and only by six pts...with a lot of 'help' from the refs.
They have struggled with EVERY major conf team they have faced with the sole exception of terrible Wash. As I said above, NU played Vandy about even, and Vandy narrowly beat FL three times. The Zags only beat FL by 5. All four of the mentioned teams aren't far from each other. Todays result PROVED IT.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you, but I hate this type of argument. You play to win the game, not to win by a certain spread. When you make these comparisons you ignore all kinds of factors. Match-ups. Circumstances. Refereeing. Who's hurt, either out or playing hurt? Who's hot? Who's not? Who picks up early fouls? Hell, sometimes teams have several guys dealing with flu and we don't even hear about it.

Several NCAA Final Four teams and eventual National Champions through the years barely squeak by in Round of 32 games.

Notre Dame last year had a Round-of-8 run, but I sat there in Brooklyn four rows off the court and watched them lose to Stephen F. Austin. The refs literally handed that game to the Irish.

Gonzaga very well could win the whole damn thing. They very well may lose their next one. But that is a deserving one seed team, a very balanced team who does not beat themselves, who forces teams to play really, really well to beat them.

Villanova won it all last year—how about you go back and dissect their regular season? There is just so much nuance.

Not trying to be a dick. I just think this line of argument is incredibly short-sighted.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Gonzaga very well could win the whole damn thing. They very well may lose their next one. But that is a deserving one seed team, a very balanced team who does not beat themselves, who forces teams to play really, really well to beat them.

As I said in the OP, they have only played a handful of major conference teams and have struggled with EACH AND EVERY one of them, except for terrible Washington. If they are a legitimate top 4 nationally, it's a darn strange way to prove it. NU was the sixth best team in the B1G and #32 seeded in this T, and did not have its best game, and a top 4 team can only get a 6 pt advantage on them? With 'extra help'?
They beat #20 FL by 5, #23 ISU by 2! Arizona (then #16) by 7. unranked Tenn by 10. Now #32 NU by 6.
And we are supposed to believe they are one the four best teams in college basketball? Sorry, not me. Doesn't mean they are terrible either. One thing is to be good. Another to be top-4 good. The results say they may well be top-25 good, but probably not top 10 good, and definitely not top-4 good.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

As I said in the OP, they have only played a handful of major conference teams and have struggled with EACH AND EVERY one of them, except for terrible Washington. If they are a legitimate top 4 nationally, it's a darn strange way to prove it. NU was the sixth best team in the B1G and #32 seeded in this T, and did not have its best game, and a top 4 team can only get a 6 pt advantage on them? With 'extra help'?
They beat #20 FL by 5, #23 ISU by 2! Arizona (then #16) by 7. unranked Tenn by 10. Now #32 NU by 6.
And we are supposed to believe they are one the four best teams in college basketball? Sorry, not me. Doesn't mean they are terrible either. One thing is to be good. Another to be top-4 good. The results say they may well be top-25 good, but probably not top 10 good, and definitely not top-4 good.

I don't care if the lose the next game, this team would have won the B1G this year. Few is a great coach, they have top tier talent and are easily top 10 this year. There are in the final 16 and it isn't a fluke. How did Florida do today? Villanova? What seed is Arizona? They beat the teams on their schedule, plain and simple. I am betting you didn't see more than a handful of gear highlights all years and none of the games you reference.

You point out the ONLY 3 games that they didn't win by at least 9 points. You make an issue that Arizona was #16 at the time they played, but no mention at all 3 games that were played that didn't impress you were played in the first month of the year. So just maybe both Arizona and the Zags got better. Should they apologize for only beating Arizona by 7, a team that many pick to win the whole thing?

Here's the deal, anybody can lose in the final 16. If the Zag's win, I fully expect the narrative to be WVU sucks. If the Zags lose, I know you'll be here gloating about I told you so. I would have loved to see your top 10 teams BEFORE the tourney started. I would bet my house Nova was in it and the Zags probably were too! Crap happens. It is easy to criticize when you never take a stand on who is actually good until the results are in. I'll tell you if NC or Kentucky aren't a top 10 team tomorrow night.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

I don't care if the lose the next game, this team would have won the B1G this year. Few is a great coach, they have top tier talent and are easily top 10 this year. There are in the final 16 and it isn't a fluke. How did Florida do today? Villanova? What seed is Arizona? They beat the teams on their schedule, plain and simple.

They would've won the B1G this year, and we have to believe it because *YOU* say so, regardless of the ACTUAL RESULTS on the field, right? You can say whatever you want. It doesn't make it true, though.

They faced the B1G #6 (having a pretty bad night, and a horrendous first half) and EFFECTIVELY LOST the game. No reasonable person who saw the game will dispute that bad officiating cost NU AT LEAST net 7 pts, through the game. But we must still believe that they would have won the B1G 'cause *YOU* say so, right?.

Any good team can have an off night. But if a team has an off night EACH AND EVERY TIME it faces a team that is any good, say, top 35, then that team isn't much better than #35. Right?.

Incidentally, their only other conference rival thought to be any good is gone now. And the next best one, who actually beat them, never made it into this tournament (or even the second round of the NIT!).

NO one is saying they are a bad team. They have played competitively against the few good teams they have faced in the schedule that they have made. NU did (essentially) beat a good team. Just as it did in the previous round. Just as it did when it beat Maryland or Michigan or Wisconsin. Just not a top 4 team (or close to it). And sure as hell not a team that would have won the B1G (or close to it).

But, I get it. It looks better for NU if GU is top 4, even if ACTUAL GAME RESULTS say the opposite. So, let's go with that illusion, right? Well, *YOU* go with that illusion. The rest of us stay with reality.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

They would've won the B1G this year, and we have to believe it because *YOU* say so, regardless of the ACTUAL RESULTS on the field, right? You can say whatever you want. It doesn't make it true, though.

They faced the B1G #6 (having a pretty bad night, and a horrendous first half) and EFFECTIVELY LOST the game. No reasonable person who saw the game will dispute that bad officiating cost NU AT LEAST net 7 pts, through the game. But we must still believe that they would have won the B1G 'cause *YOU* say so, right?.

Any good team can have an off night. But if a team has an off night EACH AND EVERY TIME it faces a team that is any good, say, top 35, then that team isn't much better than #35. Right?.

Incidentally, their only other conference rival thought to be any good is gone now. And the next best one, who actually beat them, never made it into this tournament (or even the second round of the NIT!).

NO one is saying they are a bad team. They have played competitively against the few good teams they have faced in the schedule that they have made. NU did (essentially) beat a good team. Just as it did in the previous round. Just as it did when it beat Maryland or Michigan or Wisconsin. Just not a top 4 team (or close to it). And sure as hell not a team that would have won the B1G (or close to it).

But, I get it. It looks better for NU if GU is top 4, even if ACTUAL GAME RESULTS say the opposite. So, let's go with that illusion, right? Well, *YOU* go with that illusion. The rest of us stay with reality.

Thanks for the use of CAPITALIZATION Feli. Not being a NU grad like YOU, I now understand all your well thought out posts on EVERY subject.

The REST OF US that live in FELI's reality world consist of about 3-4 people that like to crap on just about any NU accomplishment. What kills ME is you are wrong on 90% of your drivel and YOU never admit to any of it. Stayed out of YOUR other caca because you are the kind of guy/gal that insists on having the last word. The ultimate glass half empty person that craps on any and all NU accomplishments by attacking the opponents or bringing up ancient history over and over again. 2-3-5-2-1-4-2 OVER AND OUT.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Good enough to be in the final four!
The luck continues for this top 25 team. LOL

 

[NJCat]

Good enough to be in the final four!
The luck continues for this top 25 team. LOL

Only 5 teams out of 37 games lost (including the BYU win) by 6 or fewer points, including NU. Zags are damn good yet Cats took them to the limit. Great effort.

 

[Bwm57]

Pretty good.

 

[Alaskawildkat]

Better than I thought they were. I did have them making the Final Four though which it looks like was good enough to salvage my brackets moving me up from middle of the pack to a tie for 3rd place as of Saturday night with two of the Final Four yet to be selected. While I need UNC to advance and win the championship in order to have a chance at moving into 2nd or even a tie for first place, I would really like to see Gonzaga or even Oregon win it all at this point.

From both Gonzaga's and Oregon's performances today I think either one of them could be our next National Champion. Oregon's performance was especially impressive given their taking down, by a comfortable margin, a number one seed Kansas, a team that seemed to be almost perfect in tournament play up until today's loss.


RANK BRACKET, OWNER R64 R32 S16 E8 F4 NCG CHAMPION PPR TOTAL PCT
1
FitzFanRichardBx4
260 160 200 80 0 0 UNC 560 700 87.3
2
bwm57bwm57
280 200 120 80 0 0 Villanova 240 680 83.0
3*
Bepex Operatorjlw420
280 160 120 80 0 0 Kentucky 720 640 72.5
3*
DaleAlaska 2DaleAlaska
260 220 80 80 0 0 UNC 560 640 72.5

 

[Walker Fan]

Purple Pile Driver is right on. Gonzaga would have won the Big 10 and FS' lack of basketball acumen and insight shows through in every one of his posts. To win a NCAA championship, you need to win six games. In those games, you will not blow out every team. Each team has its own distinct style. The most dominant teams have struggled at times during the six game journey to a championship and even lost (see Houston with Olajuwon and Drexler in 1983 losing to NC State). The games are also dictated by matchups and coaching. NU was playing well at the end of the season when Lindsey got healthy. In fact the argument could be made that NU was better than 6th team in the Big 10 because of the illness to NU's leading scorer which caused him to miss a number of games and then caused him to not be 100 percent for the first few games he got back. As for Gonzaga, they are a veteran team who plays great defense. They have pros on the team in Goss and Collins and talented players in Williams and Matthews. They bring a NBA first round pick Zach Collins (7 footer) off the bench which is a sign of how strong they are. They also benefited from Arizona losing in the Sweet 16 to Xavier because Arizona has more talent and plays with 2 7 footers and has more talent and depth than Xavier. Arizona would have been a tougher matchup even they beat UofA earlier in the season. In the Final 4, they will benefit from Villanova and Duke being upset. It is tough to win 6 games in a row that is why they call it Survive and Advance as the key to the tourney. They will be favored in their Final 4 matchup and then have a battle in the final. Hopefully, you learned something in this Basketball 101 lesson. If not, you are beyond help or just like to argue for the sake of argument.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Feli has slithered back into his hole, like he always does after he's wrong about something...

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Gonzaga would have won the Big 10

Who could possibly doubt it???
They beat the sixth best Big Ten team NU (#32 overall) by a whopping SIX pts, and only needed like 10 net bad calls (some extremely obvious) in their favor to do it!!

If that happened against the sixth best B1G team, imagine if they had actually played all B1G teams as part of 18-game league schedule.

Gonzaga B1G champ for sure!!!!

 

[NUCatVet]

The more I watch Gonzaga as they continue to win, the more I like the 'Cats and the ferocity they showed 8 days ago. More good things lie ahead!

 

[Walker Fan]

FS strikes again and again and again showing his lack of knowledge. Gonzaga is 36-1 and has the no. 1 team in defensive rebounds per game and #4 scoring defense. That means that they have a shot to win every game they are in if you have the top defense in the nation. Then you factor in their offense with at least five guys scoring in double figures. Goss is an All-American and Zach Collins is a 7'0" five star center who is projected to be a top 20 NBA first round draft pick as their sixth man, if he decides to go to the NBA. That means they have quality depth which is critical to win the sixth game gauntlet known as the NCAA tourney. They beat UofA in Tuscon who was a top 5 team this year and will be better next season and they beat Florida 77-72 in Gainesville who is in the Elite 8 and battling to go to the Final 4. Those are two high quality road wins that matches any other non-conference team's record. They beat no. 17 St. Mary's three times. They beat the Big 12 champ Iowa State and a very tough West Virginia team. That means that Gonzaga is a top program and a top 4 team in the NCAA this year in the regular season and in the tournament. Yes, when you play in the tournament, you beat some teams by 6 points and some teams by 20+ and that margin does not matter. Keep downgrading Gonzaga which is your backhanded way of taking a shot at NU and the quality of the team that NU had this year and denigrates how tough of a team NU is and was. Does anyone else see that backhanded shot at NU with his downplaying how good Gonzaga is?

If you win, you survive and advance. That is the object of the tournament. Reason does not work with you. Can someone else explain to mass poster spewer that Gonzaga is a great team? I am done for the weekend.

 

[NJCat]

They beat UofA in Tuscon who was a top 5 team this year and will be better next season and they beat Florida 77-72 in Gainesville who is in the Elite 8 and battling to go to the Final 4. Those are two high quality road wins that matches any other non-conference team's record. .

Two minor nits:
1) GU beat FLA in a tournament in Orlando, not Gainesville.
2) Zags beat Arizona in the Staples Center in LA, not Tucson.

I agree with you, Gonzaga is an excellent team deserving of the Final 4. And NU gave them a hell of a game in the second half.

Felis is just trying to stir you up, don't take him seriously. All he wants to do is get a reaction to his click-bait.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Felis is just trying to stir you up, don't take him seriously. All he wants to do is get a reaction to his click-bait.

Do me a favor and don't put words in my mouth or pretend you know my thoughts.

You don't.

Unlike certain fanatics who refuse to see the OBVIOUS or pretend not to, I've provided plenty of EVIDENCE supporting my position.

If you don't find the evidence persuasive it's your damn problem.

 

[NJCat]

Do me a favor and don't put words in my mouth or pretend you know my thoughts.

You don't.

Unlike certain fanatics who refuse to see the OBVIOUS or pretend not to, I've provided plenty of EVIDENCE supporting my position.

If you don't find the evidence persuasive it's your damn problem.

 

[mikewebb68]

Unlike certain fanatics who refuse to see the OBVIOUS or pretend not to, I've provided plenty of EVIDENCE supporting my position.

If you don't find the evidence persuasive it's your damn problem.

Enough of this nonsense-- how many people does our new arena seat again?

 

[YesterdaysCat]

Enough of this nonsense-- how many people does our new arena seat again?

It all depends on Ash.

 

[GoZags1]

I stopped by for a visit and see this thread still "alive". I feel blessed that the Zags, too are "still alive". But that's not the reason for the visit.

I really enjoyed the CBS vignette on the 'Cats yesterday ... and learned of the "Pound the Rock" tradition. How cool.

I've been to a football game at Dyche Stadium but have never attended a basketball game on your campus .... I know our schools had done battle in the past, and I actually "laid" some smack vis a vis avenging our loss
https://northwestern.forums.rivals....narrow-final-four-loss-to-northwestern.31625/

But back to the special nature of CCC.

"Pound the rock" was/is brilliant. A "building" metaphor that has meaning, substance and doesn't go away. I found this article from '14 and it sure seems prophetic.

"This will be a long haul. Pound the Rock. And as a program, Northwestern has begun to chip away together"

"Quietly but surely, the rock is beginning to crack"
http://www.northwestern.edu/magazine/winter2014/feature/game-on-chris-collins.html

Both of our programs accomplished something special and unique this year .....

It wasn't THAT long ago that Gonzaga's "cute little run" began ..... and this year Northwestern were the "darlings".

But in my opinion, that concept is now in the rear view mirror.

You guys belong.

See you next year .....

 

[mikewebb68]

I stopped by for a visit and see this thread still "alive". I feel blessed that the Zags, too are "still alive". But that's not the reason for the visit.

I really enjoyed the CBS vignette on the 'Cats yesterday ... and learned of the "Pound the Rock" tradition. How cool.

I've been to a football game at Dyche Stadium but have never attended a basketball game on your campus .... I know our schools had done battle in the past, and I actually "laid" some smack vis a vis avenging our loss
https://northwestern.forums.rivals....narrow-final-four-loss-to-northwestern.31625/

But back to the special nature of CCC.

"Pound the rock" was/is brilliant. A "building" metaphor that has meaning, substance and doesn't go away. I found this article from '14 and it sure seems prophetic.

"This will be a long haul. Pound the Rock. And as a program, Northwestern has begun to chip away together"

"Quietly but surely, the rock is beginning to crack"
http://www.northwestern.edu/magazine/winter2014/feature/game-on-chris-collins.html

Both of our programs accomplished something special and unique this year .....

It wasn't THAT long ago that Gonzaga's "cute little run" began ..... and this year Northwestern were the "darlings".

But in my opinion, that concept is now in the rear view mirror.

You guys belong.

See you next year .....

Thanks for stopping by again! We had a separate thread dedicated to the CBS special, but thanks for sharing your thoughts here.