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Greenstein and Wootton on Replacing CT

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I found it bizarre that TG claimed that Green and Aiden had experience on their sides? Neither has played since hs in a real game almost literally. They have practice sessions for NU, but as the third and fourth stringers? They've probably gotten about 2% (at most)of the reps with the first stringers! Just how much do they know about the offense other than in theory? I was disappointed by the article. I was really hoping we'd get more viable competition for the job this Fall with a transfer thrown into the mix. I hope someone steps up as a "sure fire starter," but I fear we might get burned this Fall without one.
 
BigNUFan51 said:
Who would have thought Paddy Fisher could replace AWalk?
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You've got a good point. It is nice and reassuring, though, to have NFox available as another option in case Fisher gets ejected for targeting?? I hope we have Fisher and Fox on our roster already, but I am just a little leery. Do you think Smith, Green, Whittaker, and Marty will be as good as Fisher and Fox? I hope so. I really do. But very reluctantly. Sorry.
 
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mickbula said:
You've got a good point. It is nice and reassuring, though, to have NFox available as another option in case Fisher gets ejected for targeting?? I hope we have Fisher and Fox on our roster already, but I am just a little leery. Do you think Smith, Green, Whittaker, and Marty will be as good as Fisher and Fox? I hope so. I really do. But very reluctantly. Sorry.
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Yes.
 
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mickbula said:
I found it bizarre that TG claimed that Green and Aiden had experience on their sides? Neither has played since hs in a real game almost literally. They have practice sessions for NU, but as the third and fourth stringers? They've probably gotten about 2% (at most)of the reps with the first stringers! Just how much do they know about the offense other than in theory? I was disappointed by the article. I was really hoping we'd get more viable competition for the job this Fall with a transfer thrown into the mix. I hope someone steps up as a "sure fire starter," but I fear we might get burned this Fall without one.
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They do have experience in the form of years in the program and knowing the playbook. Maybe the coaches are happy with what we have on the roster. I'm excited about Marty and Green myself, but that admittedly is not really based on anything more than what they did in HS and their stories. I think if Marty had played his junior year, he'd potentially have been a 4 star - certainly played like one his senior year. And as discussed, Green played as well as a 4 star (including better than Nathan Scheelhaase as his benchmark per his coach at Rockhurst), but was seemingly passed over due to size, which he has since closed the gap on.
 
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EvanstonCat said:
They do have experience in the form of years in the program and knowing the playbook. Maybe the coaches are happy with what we have on the roster. I'm excited about Marty and Green myself, but that admittedly is not really based on anything more than what they did in HS and their stories. I think if Marty had played his junior year, he'd potentially have been a 4 star - certainly played like one his senior year. And as discussed, Green played as well as a 4 star (including better than Nathan Scheelhaase as his benchmark per his coach at Rockhurst), but was seemingly passed over due to size, which he has since closed the gap on.
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My question for you is this: Is Green going to be a scholarship player by spring practice? By the Fall if he is annointed starter? I hope so if he is our best option for facing Purdue in our opener. Maybe he will be the next BMayfield?? I hope so. That would be delightful!
 
EvanstonCat said:
They do have experience in the form of years in the program and knowing the playbook. Maybe the coaches are happy with what we have on the roster. I'm excited about Marty and Green myself, but that admittedly is not really based on anything more than what they did in HS and their stories. I think if Marty had played his junior year, he'd potentially have been a 4 star - certainly played like one his senior year. And as discussed, Green played as well as a 4 star (including better than Nathan Scheelhaase as his benchmark per his coach at Rockhurst), but was seemingly passed over due to size, which he has since closed the gap on.
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And on top of all that... CT is still most likely to be our QB for most, if not all, of next season.

Until we hear something that indicates CT won't play next year, I'm really not concerned. And letting the backups take full advantage of a QB competition this offseason is a good thing even if CT is ready by August.
 
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zeek55 said:
And on top of all that... CT is still most likely to be our QB for most, if not all, of next season.

Until we hear something that indicates CT won't play next year, I'm really not concerned. And letting the backups take full advantage of a QB competition this offseason is a good thing even if CT is ready by August.
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Zach Levine on the Chicago Bulls is going on 11 months with his ACL tear. I know it is a different sport but Clayton being ready in August seems very unlikely.
 
Purple Pile Driver said:
Zach Levine on the Chicago Bulls is going on 11 months with his ACL tear. I know it is a different sport but Clayton being ready in August seems very unlikely.
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Sure, but I think it's more like 1/3 chance equally of 1) he's back by August at 100%, 2) back by late September at 100%, or 3) back by November at 100%.

There's some differences in each case, but we just have to be patient. I'm more optimistic because it's his right knee and he's a QB, but the most important thing is the timetable NU will get later this month post-surgery.
 
mickbula said:
You've got a good point. It is nice and reassuring, though, to have NFox available as another option in case Fisher gets ejected for targeting?? I hope we have Fisher and Fox on our roster already, but I am just a little leery. Do you think Smith, Green, Whittaker, and Marty will be as good as Fisher and Fox? I hope so. I really do. But very reluctantly. Sorry.
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"I hope we have Fisher and Fox on our roster already, but I am just a little leery." What does that mean?
 
zeek55 said:
Sure, but I think it's more like 1/3 chance equally of 1) he's back by August at 100%, 2) back by late September at 100%, or 3) back by November at 100%.

There's some differences in each case, but we just have to be patient. I'm more optimistic because it's his right knee and he's a QB, but the most important thing is the timetable NU will get later this month post-surgery.
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In your third case, it would be awfully late in the season to break him back into playing trim. Unless the replacement was a complete disaster, you'd probably be better off sticking with him.
 
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zeek55 said:
Sure, but I think it's more like 1/3 chance equally of 1) he's back by August at 100%, 2) back by late September at 100%, or 3) back by November at 100%.

There's some differences in each case, but we just have to be patient. I'm more optimistic because it's his right knee and he's a QB, but the most important thing is the timetable NU will get later this month post-surgery.
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Having had a very minor knee repair twenty years ago I am highly doubtful he will be 100 % in less than 12 months from the surgery. That doesn't mean he won't play in Aug but 100 % may never happen. I think Wootten's time table is more likely. HE played the next year but wasn't 100% till the following season.
 
mickbula said:
I found it bizarre that TG claimed that Green and Aiden had experience on their sides? Neither has played since hs in a real game almost literally. They have practice sessions for NU, but as the third and fourth stringers? They've probably gotten about 2% (at most)of the reps with the first stringers! Just how much do they know about the offense other than in theory? I was disappointed by the article. I was really hoping we'd get more viable competition for the job this Fall with a transfer thrown into the mix. I hope someone steps up as a "sure fire starter," but I fear we might get burned this Fall without one.
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Did Teddy claim that or did Fitz in his quotes at the end? Otherwise, I agree. This thing that the QB room can’t deal with a transfer seems far-fetched. If you can’t handle competition, how can you start in the Big Ten?
 
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mickbula said:
You've got a good point. It is nice and reassuring, though, to have NFox available as another option in case Fisher gets ejected for targeting?? I hope we have Fisher and Fox on our roster already, but I am just a little leery. Do you think Smith, Green, Whittaker, and Marty will be as good as Fisher and Fox? I hope so. I really do. But very reluctantly. Sorry.
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I think there is a better chance of this that we are giving credit for. IMO McCall's strength as a OC is his ability to evaluate and coach QB's. He has a very good track record dating back before he got to NU. It has been widely reported here that QB's don't get an NU offer until McCall sees them in person. He will work with all theses guys even harder now and I like our chances.
 
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zeek55 said:
Sure, but I think it's more like 1/3 chance equally of 1) he's back by August at 100%, 2) back by late September at 100%, or 3) back by November at 100%.

There's some differences in each case, but we just have to be patient. I'm more optimistic because it's his right knee and he's a QB, but the most important thing is the timetable NU will get later this month post-surgery.
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I think that is a very optimistic spectrum of possibilities. I think it is likely (better than 50%) that Thorson is not 100% at any point next season. Different injury but this has the makings of Dan Persa's return all over again. Unless Thorson's surgery reveals less damage than what is anticipated and/or the staff feels very strongly that one of the other QBs can step in and play at a high level, then I think it is irresponsible not to pursue a grad transfer option. I think the opportunity to compete for the starting job at NU next season would be highly attractive to a QB looking to play and get exposure, particularly when you consider our schedule next year. I don't think we should make a habit of this but the need to look outside the program is a function of not bringing in a true scholarship QB in the Lloyd Yates class. There is a gap in our depth chart at QB and a grad transfer with 1-2 years of eligibility is a perfect option to bridge that gap. The rest of our team is too good to not explore the possibility.
 
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I love injury discussions:

1. I had a ___ injury in [year] and it [insert generalizations from one person's non-sport and probably not same injury anyway experience].
2. [Insert other athlete, maybe in any sport] had [any injury that seems similar] and he came back in ___ months!
 
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corbi296 said:
I think that is a very optimistic spectrum of possibilities. I think it is likely (better than 50%) that Thorson is not 100% at any point next season. Different injury but this has the makings of Dan Persa's return all over again. Unless Thorson's surgery reveals less damage than what is anticipated and/or the staff feels very strongly that one of the other QBs can step in and play at a high level, then I think it is irresponsible not to pursue a grad transfer option. I think the opportunity to compete for the starting job at NU next season would be highly attractive to a QB looking to play and get exposure, particularly when you consider our schedule next year. I don't think we should make a habit of this but the need to look outside the program is a function of not bringing in a true scholarship QB in the Lloyd Yates class. There is a gap in our depth chart at QB and a grad transfer with 1-2 years of eligibility is a perfect option to bridge that gap. The rest of our team is too good to not explore the possibility.
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I understand what you're saying, but CT doesn't rely on explosiveness like a lot of the comparisons I'm seeing; pocket-passing QBs (Flacco is a decent comparison and he had ACL/MCL tear and played the entire next season) typically have an "easier" return from an ACL injury (most can display near peak performance by end of year 1 even if a bit mobility restricted), and that's why I think the odds are fairly high that we see CT start at least a few games next year with decent odds on him playing most of or the whole season.

CT doesn't need to return at 100% mobility like Wootton or Zach Lavine or these other comparisons. I think as long as he's capable; he'll be out there even if a bit mobility restricted.
 
zeek55 said:
I understand what you're saying, but CT doesn't rely on explosiveness like a lot of the comparisons I'm seeing; pocket-passing QBs (Flacco is a decent comparison and he had ACL/MCL tear and played the entire next season) typically have an "easier" return from an ACL injury (most can display near peak performance by end of year 1 even if a bit mobility restricted), and that's why I think the odds are fairly high that we see CT start at least a few games next year with decent odds on him playing most of or the whole season.

CT doesn't need to return at 100% mobility like Wootton or Zach Lavine or these other comparisons. I think as long as he's capable; he'll be out there even if a bit mobility restricted.
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I couldn't disagree more. For our offense to work well, Thorson needs to be seen as a threat to be mobile. There is a lot of planting, cutting and rotating that has to happen with the right knee even if he is mostly used as a pocket passer and occasional decoy. Unless the surgery reveals a much less severe injury, if I were Thorson I would be very apprehensive about playing next year for fear of reinjuring the knee or going out and playing at a subpar level because of the injury limitations. Either of those scenarios could permanently damage his pro potential.

Candidly, if I were him I would be rethinking my decision to not go pro. The likelihood that he improves his draft stock by playing at NU next year has just gone down significantly considering he will be spending this offseason rehabbing a major injury rather than improving his game. When he does get on the field, his abilities will likely be limited by the injury. There is very little upside in it for him to come back in my mind. His best option may be to have the surgery, start his rehab and declare for the supplemental NFL draft this summer after NFL teams have a better chance to assess how his rehab is going. I think the chances of a team investing a 2019 4th or 5th round pick in him are high. Under this scenario he could spend next year on the PUP list with the security of an NFL contract, rehabbing under the supervision of an NFL staff and learning the mental aspects of what it takes to be an NFL QB. To me it is a no brainer decision for Thorson.
 
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Fitz51 said:
I love injury discussions:

1. I had a ___ injury in [year] and it [insert generalizations from one person's non-sport and probably not same injury anyway experience].
2. [Insert other athlete, maybe in any sport] had [any injury that seems similar] and he came back in ___ months!
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They are no more egregious than discussions about recruits' skills and capabilities, our offensive game plans, and what goes on inside Fitz's head. I at least (unfortunately) have direct experience with torn shoulder labrums and cuffs, partial ACL tears and meniscus tears / surgery, and doing enough weight training to beat the crap out of my joints to the point where I am reminded of it pretty much every morning.
 
corbi296 said:
I couldn't disagree more. For our offense to work well, Thorson needs to be seen as a threat to be mobile. There is a lot of planting, cutting and rotating that has to happen with the right knee even if he is mostly used as a pocket passer and occasional decoy. Unless the surgery reveals a much less severe injury, if I were Thorson I would be very apprehensive about playing next year for fear of reinjuring the knee or going out and playing at a subpar level because of the injury limitations. Either of those scenarios could permanently damage his pro potential.

Candidly, if I were him I would be rethinking my decision to not go pro. The likelihood that he improves his draft stock by playing at NU next year has just gone down significantly considering he will be spending this offseason rehabbing a major injury rather than improving his game. When he does get on the field, his abilities will likely be limited by the injury. There is very little upside in it for him to come back in my mind. His best option may be to have the surgery, start his rehab and declare for the supplemental NFL draft this summer after NFL teams have a better chance to assess how his rehab is going. I think the chances of a team investing a 2019 4th or 5th round pick in him are high. Under this scenario he could spend next year on the PUP list with the security of an NFL contract, rehabbing under the supervision of an NFL staff and learning the mental aspects of what it takes to be an NFL QB. To me it is a no brainer decision for Thorson.
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Perhaps we have a radically different offense now than we did then but I clearly recall that Kafka turned into a pocket passer in his senior year after being a runner in prior seasons. I was struck at the time by how small a threat to run he became. Of course, he became a great pocket passer which I would hope CT would be in his senior season.

Let's all recall a recent quote by a longtime (if longtime mediocre) NFL quarterback:
"The good thing is I play quarterback so I don't really have to be that good of cardiovascular shape. But I'll be fine."
 
corbi296 said:
I couldn't disagree more. For our offense to work well, Thorson needs to be seen as a threat to be mobile. There is a lot of planting, cutting and rotating that has to happen with the right knee even if he is mostly used as a pocket passer and occasional decoy. Unless the surgery reveals a much less severe injury, if I were Thorson I would be very apprehensive about playing next year for fear of reinjuring the knee or going out and playing at a subpar level because of the injury limitations. Either of those scenarios could permanently damage his pro potential.

Candidly, if I were him I would be rethinking my decision to not go pro. The likelihood that he improves his draft stock by playing at NU next year has just gone down significantly considering he will be spending this offseason rehabbing a major injury rather than improving his game. When he does get on the field, his abilities will likely be limited by the injury. There is very little upside in it for him to come back in my mind. His best option may be to have the surgery, start his rehab and declare for the supplemental NFL draft this summer after NFL teams have a better chance to assess how his rehab is going. I think the chances of a team investing a 2019 4th or 5th round pick in him are high. Under this scenario he could spend next year on the PUP list with the security of an NFL contract, rehabbing under the supervision of an NFL staff and learning the mental aspects of what it takes to be an NFL QB. To me it is a no brainer decision for Thorson.
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I agree. Right on point. This would be the best case scenario for all involved. It would make the best out of bad situation.
 
corbi296 said:
I couldn't disagree more. For our offense to work well, Thorson needs to be seen as a threat to be mobile. There is a lot of planting, cutting and rotating that has to happen with the right knee even if he is mostly used as a pocket passer and occasional decoy. Unless the surgery reveals a much less severe injury, if I were Thorson I would be very apprehensive about playing next year for fear of reinjuring the knee or going out and playing at a subpar level because of the injury limitations. Either of those scenarios could permanently damage his pro potential.

Candidly, if I were him I would be rethinking my decision to not go pro. The likelihood that he improves his draft stock by playing at NU next year has just gone down significantly considering he will be spending this offseason rehabbing a major injury rather than improving his game. When he does get on the field, his abilities will likely be limited by the injury. There is very little upside in it for him to come back in my mind. His best option may be to have the surgery, start his rehab and declare for the supplemental NFL draft this summer after NFL teams have a better chance to assess how his rehab is going. I think the chances of a team investing a 2019 4th or 5th round pick in him are high. Under this scenario he could spend next year on the PUP list with the security of an NFL contract, rehabbing under the supervision of an NFL staff and learning the mental aspects of what it takes to be an NFL QB. To me it is a no brainer decision for Thorson.
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The only way it comes down to this is if he gets a 10-12 month recovery prognosis after the surgery this month.

I really don't think that's as likely as others do, so we just really have to wait for a month and see how it plays out. If it is that severe, then sure I think you're right, but if it ends up that he can play by September, I think they will just go the route of a QB competition with our backups and the expectation that the winner of that competition plays at most 2 or 3 games.
 
mickbula said:
I found it bizarre that TG claimed that Green and Aiden had experience on their sides? Neither has played since hs in a real game almost literally. They have practice sessions for NU, but as the third and fourth stringers? They've probably gotten about 2% (at most)of the reps with the first stringers! Just how much do they know about the offense other than in theory? I was disappointed by the article. I was really hoping we'd get more viable competition for the job this Fall with a transfer thrown into the mix. I hope someone steps up as a "sure fire starter," but I fear we might get burned this Fall without one.
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Oh please... A regular transfer has to sit out a year and a grad transfer at the QB position would generally be someone that was moving because he wasn't playing. We have guys that have been a couple years in the system and it is much more likely that we would see success with one of them before any contribution from a transfer
 
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JournCat said:
Did Teddy claim that or did Fitz in his quotes at the end? Otherwise, I agree. This thing that the QB room can’t deal with a transfer seems far-fetched. If you can’t handle competition, how can you start in the Big Ten?
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Is it? You have a new guy arriving late that you have to bring along which likely slows down the development of guys in the system trying to take the next step. Also reps for him cut reps for the others. If a guy like Wilson drops from the sky, fine but how likely is that? And how do you get that guy to come when it is likely CT will be back at some point during the season (if not from the beginning)
 
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SciCat said:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...replacements-northwestern-20180104-story.html

Let’s hope if CT doesn’t recover in time, one of the three can step up, as the article makes it sound like no transfers are forthcoming. I agree with TG that transfers would lead to lingering issues of trust from the current and future QBs.
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Good article and the Bowling Green quib.
Everyone keeps saying maybe as early as 8 months after surgery but surgery hasn't been set and could happen around February 1st. So in the quickest scenario, that means October 1st. Unfortunately, that means the 5th game of the year, at the earliest. And if we are 4-0 then who wants to change a thing? Not me. I mean if we roll into the up and coming Purdue stadium and win and rattle off 3 more wins against bowl teams then I'm not sure we put in a 70% Thorson over a 4-0 QB.

I doubt CT will be ready as quick as 8 months as CGC made a point that a QB and the right knee is a problem for a RH throwing QB. I personally don't know but Wootton seems to be hopeful that CT may not miss any time. That would be ideal and we wouldn't have to take out a hot QB who could be 4-0 when a decision on CT happens.
 
Deeringfish said:
I think there is a better chance of this that we are giving credit for. IMO McCall's strength as a OC is his ability to evaluate and coach QB's. He has a very good track record dating back before he got to NU. It has been widely reported here that QB's don't get an NU offer until McCall sees them in person. He will work with all theses guys even harder now and I like our chances.
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Well then, if McCall has done his job, we shouldn't need a transfer. Problem is, it seems as though we only have one QB at any given time who is ready for prime-time. Thus our history with two headed monsters.
 
mickbula said:
I found it bizarre that TG claimed that Green and Aiden had experience on their sides? Neither has played since hs in a real game almost literally. They have practice sessions for NU, but as the third and fourth stringers? They've probably gotten about 2% (at most)of the reps with the first stringers! Just how much do they know about the offense other than in theory? I was disappointed by the article. I was really hoping we'd get more viable competition for the job this Fall with a transfer thrown into the mix. I hope someone steps up as a "sure fire starter," but I fear we might get burned this Fall without one.
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Experience in that they have an additional year in the system compared with Marty
 
corbi296 said:
In my opinion Tommy Stevens would be a sure fire starter if he came in as a graduate transfer.
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Maybe, but I don’t think Stevens has even confirmed that he is leaving PSU. He certainly doesn’t have a large sample size to judge him on. If you can get a stud fine, but I would really like to hear from someone that has actually seen Smith, Marty and Green over the past 2 years. We are acting like we have zero in the pipeline, and we don’t know that. It is reasonable to think that players in the system 2-3 years would be serviceable.
 
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Purple Pile Driver said:
Maybe, but I don’t think Stevens has even confirmed that he is leaving PSU. He certainly doesn’t have a large sample size to judge him on. If you can get a stud fine, but I would really like to hear from someone that has actually seen Smith, Marty and Green over the past 2 years. We are acting like we have zero in the pipeline, and we don’t know that. It is reasonable to think that players in the system 2-3 years would be serviceable.
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Serviceable but are we really going to settle for serviceable if there is the possibility for better? We have a chance at another 10+ win season but not if our QB is only serviceable. The program is on a roll and I would like to see FItz do everything possible to continue that roll rather than take a step back. Not exploring the grad transfer option would be a reflection of the same mentality that has given us underperforming and inconsistent OL play for the last several years.
 
corbi296 said:
Serviceable but are we really going to settle for serviceable if there is the possibility for better? We have a chance at another 10+ win season but not if our QB is only serviceable. The program is on a roll and I would like to see FItz do everything possible to continue that roll rather than take a step back. Not exploring the grad transfer option would be a reflection of the same mentality that has given us underperforming and inconsistent OL play for the last several years.
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Doesn't Stevens have to sit out a year if he transfers? I don't think he's graduated yet.
 
stpaulcat said:
Problem is, it seems as though we only have one QB at any given time who is ready for prime-time.
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Well, Alviti stepped in and did enough to get us the bowl win. (I think NU was still losing when he took over.)
 
DaCat said:
Doesn't Stevens have to sit out a year if he transfers? I don't think he's graduated yet.
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He graduates this spring and can transfer with two years of eligibility while playing right away. That being said, this discussion is more a general discussion about the merits of bringing in a QB as a transfer than anything specific to Stevens.
 
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