We're more than halfway through the season. Asking for a friend.
How long can the youth excuse be used?
- Thread starter lou v
- Start date
Collins isn't THAT young
/s
It can be used this year. Next year when most of the team is made up of juniors and sophs it won’t be a valid excuse.
Something doesn't compute. If recruiting is going so well and improving, the underclassmen should be adding wins, not subtracting them. We've got some self-delusion here. Some seem to be pretending it's 1980 and you can't count on freshmen to be major contributors. Guys, freshmen all across the country start and even star for some programs. Either recruiting isn't as good as some people claim, or the underclassmen aren't being coached up enough.
Rutgers coach just stated that 10-11 of their guys are first or second year players. Their youth seems to click.
There is only one thing one ever needs to say to know why NU basketball is bad: it’s NU basketball.
The youth excuse is getting a little tiring. There are plenty of young players in the conference that are outperforming our young players. Why will our guys get better and theirs won't?
Baker is a junior. Yeboah I believe is a senior. Harper is a soph. Unsure on the rest but those 3 probably put up 50 of their points tonight?
Every team has some youth. Our team is basically all youth. Other than turner who looks like he forgot how to play b-ball and a former lacrosse player...
The Cats are where Rutgers and PSU were the last couple of years. Each lost heart breaking games. Our leading 3 leading scorers were 2 freshmen and a sophomore. I think it will come.
I do not think Collins end of the game plans make that much sense. I do not understand not doing a weave which will may get a better match up offensively. He needs to grow.
We lost this game on the boards and the line. Rutgers plays with heart and very hard. Nance, Young, Beran, Kopp, Bouie and Jones each need 10 to 15 pounds of muscle.
I do not think Collins end of the game plans make that much sense. I do not understand not doing a weave which will may get a better match up offensively. He needs to grow.
We lost this game on the boards and the line. Rutgers plays with heart and very hard. Nance, Young, Beran, Kopp, Bouie and Jones each need 10 to 15 pounds of muscle.
You need multiple options on offense. Buie and Kopp are not enough. When your 2 4-star forwards, Beran and Nance get you only two baskets, it is tough to close out teams. The top teams have multiple scoring options. For example, Gonzaga has 7 guys averaging double digits.
MInny’s best 3 players, by far, are SO. They also play a senior, transfer from a mid major, who does not contribute much. They round up with a junior, and playa freshman off the bench. Starters play the most minutes in the B1G.
Youth is an excuse for some games. It can’t be an excuse for all games. No way
Youth is an excuse for some games. It can’t be an excuse for all games. No way
Most teams in the Big 10 tend to have a jr/sr “closer/leader” or a really talented younger player who is going to leave early for the NBA draft...
Mich st- winston
Mich- Simpson & Teske
Rutgers- baker
P St- Stevens
Iowa- Garza
Illinois- Ayo
Maryland- Cowan
It’s a lot easier to win and close out games late if you have one of those type players. We don’t yet.
Youth isn’t the only excuse, but it is one. Last I checked Minny is 12-11 this season?
Youth isn’t the only excuse, but it is one. Last I checked Minny is 12-11 this season?
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Yes. They’re also 6-7 in league play.
And to your point about a closer... it helps a lot. Indeed. But do you necessarily need one in games you lead by 8 with 4 min to go? Or 10 with 6 min to go? Or to win more than 1 in 12 games? Wisconsin seems to hold on to leads...
Yes. They’re also 6-7 in league play.
And to your point about a closer... it helps a lot. Indeed. But do you necessarily need one in games you lead by 8 with 4 min to go? Or 10 with 6 min to go? Or to win more than 1 in 12 games? Wisconsin seems to hold on to leads...[/QUOTE]
Trice is a redshirt junior. Pritzl is a grad student. Their top players are upperclassmen. Even Illinois has age. Nichols, Feliz and Frazier are upperclassman and AYO is a sophomore. Maryland has Cowan, senior, as leading scorer and the next 2 are sophomores. PSU is all upperclassmen.Their star is a senior. Unless you have a great frosh, you need some experience..
Experienced or exceptionally talented (and best if both) guards are the difference in closing out games (and deep tournament runs incidentally). We currently have fairly talented, inexperienced guards.
Tell me which of these guys are the calm, been there/done that guy? Who is able to settle us down and get the clutch bucket with the ball?
It’s just not there yet. I think Buie will get there next year. I like Spencer’s moxie, but he’s still in his first year of college ball and his handles are adequate, but not great.
Again, unless they are guys that will be going pro next year, freshman guards lose more games than they win.
I’ve mentioned it before, but I follow San Diego State as my hometown team/lots of family alums. They had 8 freshmen/sophs playing big minutes last year and had a very mediocre team. The coach’s number one priority over the off-season was to get older. Two grad transfers, a juco transfer, and a traditional transfer (Junior) later and they completely transformed. They haven’t lost this year. Three of those transfers are guards (junior, RS junior, grad transfer senior).
Long story short, we have young guards. Old guards (and especially talented old guards [looking at Wrassler]) are better at all the things we need...
Tell me which of these guys are the calm, been there/done that guy? Who is able to settle us down and get the clutch bucket with the ball?
It’s just not there yet. I think Buie will get there next year. I like Spencer’s moxie, but he’s still in his first year of college ball and his handles are adequate, but not great.
Again, unless they are guys that will be going pro next year, freshman guards lose more games than they win.
I’ve mentioned it before, but I follow San Diego State as my hometown team/lots of family alums. They had 8 freshmen/sophs playing big minutes last year and had a very mediocre team. The coach’s number one priority over the off-season was to get older. Two grad transfers, a juco transfer, and a traditional transfer (Junior) later and they completely transformed. They haven’t lost this year. Three of those transfers are guards (junior, RS junior, grad transfer senior).
Long story short, we have young guards. Old guards (and especially talented old guards [looking at Wrassler]) are better at all the things we need...
Yes. They’re also 6-7 in league play.
And to your point about a closer... it helps a lot. Indeed. But do you necessarily need one in games you lead by 8 with 4 min to go? Or 10 with 6 min to go? Or to win more than 1 in 12 games? Wisconsin seems to hold on to leads...[/QUOTE]
Trice is a redshirt junior. Pritzl is a grad student. Their top players are upperclassmen. Even Illinois has age. Nichols, Feliz and Frazier are upperclassman and AYO is a sophomore. Maryland has Cowan, senior, as leading scorer and the next 2 are sophomores. PSU is all upperclassmen.Their star is a senior. Unless you have a great frosh, you need some experience..
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The mention of Wisconsin was not about experience. Was about holding on to leads without a clear go to guy.
I'm looking for hope in the future as much as many out here, but I'm getting very mixed feelings.
It's SUCH a young team. And there have been some great 35-minute stretches. Unfortinately, only 35 minutes.
But you need to finish just a few of those. You need to show some - just a little - ability to finish. Or else you pull out the cliche: you are what you are. Especially when you have so many games that follow the same g.d. pattern.
OTOH, the season didn't end today.
And these guys are still playing hard. For that reason alone, I hope they get a few.
It's SUCH a young team. And there have been some great 35-minute stretches. Unfortinately, only 35 minutes.
But you need to finish just a few of those. You need to show some - just a little - ability to finish. Or else you pull out the cliche: you are what you are. Especially when you have so many games that follow the same g.d. pattern.
OTOH, the season didn't end today.
And these guys are still playing hard. For that reason alone, I hope they get a few.
We really do not have anything of an upper class right now. One thing when the Frosh fills in a spot on a lineup constructed of Jrs, Srs etc but here they are the base of the team.
Buie showed Frosh mistakes of thinking he had to do it all himself. Looking like he feels he has to be the man when he is supposed to be playing with 4 other guys. Needs to be ready to trust the others and dish on those drives
Yes. They’re also 6-7 in league play.
And to your point about a closer... it helps a lot. Indeed. But do you necessarily need one in games you lead by 8 with 4 min to go? Or 10 with 6 min to go? Or to win more than 1 in 12 games? Wisconsin seems to hold on to leads...[/QUOTE]
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That’s exactly right, Gato. In a few games each year any team would benefit from a go-to guy at the end. But players and coaches capable of getting double digit leads deep into games (like us, often, in fact) should not have that need very often. We seem to put ourselves into “just hang on” mode time after time. At which point what teams really need is bangers who clean the boards on both ends, protect the paint and rim, get some putbacks, perhaps even by using two of them on the court simultaneously. AND, other guys who handle the ball flawlessly and take advantage of opponents overplaying them in an attempt to make steals and block shots. I would label those five guys the “firewall” squad. Psychologically, these “closers” wouldn’t feel the mounting pressure of making shot after shot. Ideally, they’d play looser and with clear “purpose” for being on the floor. And then, they might just surprise us by making a couple of shots when they get an opening.
I hate it when we let opponents back into games by virtual of their multiple open shots, our lack of rebounding, and our making turnovers at the worst times. Maybe we lack the depth of talent to change our on-floor “personality” into "slam-the-door-shut" mode. But I’d like to see SOMETHING different when the opponent is gaining momentum after having had 30+ minutes to observe and plan against our standard approach.
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Look, don't think it's as much youth (yeah, it is some of it) and not having a closer, as it is the same ol', same ol' - we have seen w/ BMac and before him, Demps.
For example, on the 2009-10 team - Shurna and Luka were Soph and Crawford and Marco were Frosh.
Yeah, Juice was a JR, but he was pretty much as good as a Frosh (actually had a little higher shooting %). Leaving Nash, the lone SR.
The ball-handler holding on to the ball (usually for too long) before making his move and then either putting up a tough shot or passing it w/ barely enough time for the recipient to put up a shot is what I see as being more problematic.
At the end of games, there's no ball movement and seems like everyone (aside from the ball-handler) is just waiting around.
Also playing into the equation is the make-up of the team.
No one aside from Boo (who was trying to do too much at the end) and maybe Spencer being able to drive to the basket.
What's the point of having all these lengthy (and supposedly more athletic) stretch-4s and wings if they are incapable of scoring going towards the basket (of course, the right play has to be drawn up) and all they do is shoot from the perimeter? (That would be fine, if all of them could shoot, but as of yet, only Kopp has shown any real consistency at it.)
Going back to the PU loss, the coaches couldn't draw up a play where one of the 6-8+ players gets the ball going to the basket (and maybe at least drawing a foul)?
I like Beran, but don't think giving the ball twice to a true frosh who had a whopping 30 3 pt attempts for his collegiate career is the best strategy in crunch time.
I like Young (and he probably doesn't get the ball enough, and when he does, it's often at last gasp pass when the defender is in a good position), but the 'Cats are sure missing the physical (and more athletic) presence that Pardon brought to the table (am hoping to get that from JJ).
And while I had wished Law had attacked the basket more often when he was playing, at least we saw a good # of thunderous alley-oop dunks, and Lumpkin could body his defender and work his way to the basket.
Presently, don't have enough guards and/or wings who can drive to the basket (w/ one being a frosh and the other being a 1st year player at this level) and have too many wings/forwards who don't seem to do anything but shoot from the perimeter w/ only 1 of them being able to do so w/ consistency (w/ another showing promise).
This team is just not put together well and that's a reflection of previous recruiting classes and CC having too much of an infatuation w/ the same type pf player (long and can shoot - except only a couple of them can shoot).
Haven't been able to catch too many game this season, but everyone I have managed to catch had pretty much the same script.
Another thing - as much as Boo played poorly down the stretch (trying to hero-ball), at least he wanted the ball in his hands.
For example, on the 2009-10 team - Shurna and Luka were Soph and Crawford and Marco were Frosh.
Yeah, Juice was a JR, but he was pretty much as good as a Frosh (actually had a little higher shooting %). Leaving Nash, the lone SR.
The ball-handler holding on to the ball (usually for too long) before making his move and then either putting up a tough shot or passing it w/ barely enough time for the recipient to put up a shot is what I see as being more problematic.
At the end of games, there's no ball movement and seems like everyone (aside from the ball-handler) is just waiting around.
Also playing into the equation is the make-up of the team.
No one aside from Boo (who was trying to do too much at the end) and maybe Spencer being able to drive to the basket.
What's the point of having all these lengthy (and supposedly more athletic) stretch-4s and wings if they are incapable of scoring going towards the basket (of course, the right play has to be drawn up) and all they do is shoot from the perimeter? (That would be fine, if all of them could shoot, but as of yet, only Kopp has shown any real consistency at it.)
Going back to the PU loss, the coaches couldn't draw up a play where one of the 6-8+ players gets the ball going to the basket (and maybe at least drawing a foul)?
I like Beran, but don't think giving the ball twice to a true frosh who had a whopping 30 3 pt attempts for his collegiate career is the best strategy in crunch time.
I like Young (and he probably doesn't get the ball enough, and when he does, it's often at last gasp pass when the defender is in a good position), but the 'Cats are sure missing the physical (and more athletic) presence that Pardon brought to the table (am hoping to get that from JJ).
And while I had wished Law had attacked the basket more often when he was playing, at least we saw a good # of thunderous alley-oop dunks, and Lumpkin could body his defender and work his way to the basket.
Presently, don't have enough guards and/or wings who can drive to the basket (w/ one being a frosh and the other being a 1st year player at this level) and have too many wings/forwards who don't seem to do anything but shoot from the perimeter w/ only 1 of them being able to do so w/ consistency (w/ another showing promise).
This team is just not put together well and that's a reflection of previous recruiting classes and CC having too much of an infatuation w/ the same type pf player (long and can shoot - except only a couple of them can shoot).
Haven't been able to catch too many game this season, but everyone I have managed to catch had pretty much the same script.
Another thing - as much as Boo played poorly down the stretch (trying to hero-ball), at least he wanted the ball in his hands.
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I can't make sense of this. First, mediocre doesn't mean terrible. My personal feeling is that we are terrible. Second, San Diego State, albeit in a weaker conference, MAY have been mediocre compared to their typical regional powerhouse role, but they won 21 games last year, and lost a reasonably close CCG that could have put them in the NCAA. We will win approximately 25% as many
So, speaking of SDSU, how much do they pay Dutcher?
That is why I hate this closer talk. It's one more, in a long series, of excuses we come up with. You do not need a go to guy to hold on to double digit leads in the last 1/3 of the 2H. You might need one to get back from a double digit deficit, Geo Baker comes handily to mind.
Since we don't seem to be able to just play or run the offense, in the last 5 minutes, as we do in the first 35... Here's a novel idea for a young team struggling to close out a game, clearly feeling the pressure, shaky knees and all: go inside, post someone up. Young is competent doing it. Spencer is very good at posting up other guards. Might be better than dribbling around endlessly and jacking up bad shots.
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A day later, that last shot from Buie is still unbelievable on every level. James has forgotten more about basketball than I'll ever know, but we really couldn't do more than a failed pick and roll? Couldn't we have stolen the set Purdue used to get Stefanovic open and just plug in with Kopp?
Akwasi is a grad transfer, Baker junior, Carter senior, Young, McConnell, Harper, Johnson, Mathis soph. Mulcahy frosh
The problem is that all these players - for really the whole history of the program - are like 21 or younger. We need some guys in their late 20s and perhaps even 30s. I've noticed a similar problem in football.
Juice was descent as a Frosh but no where near what he was as a JR as far as understanding of the game or being a steadying influence. We have had a bad mix over the last couple years and that has been primarily at the guard position. Last year, no real true PG and tried to handle it by committee. Right now we are missing our steadying influence. Spencer has been interesting to watch and while he has shown he has a reasonable handle, he has also shown he has been out of the game for 4 years. Buie is exciting but right now going down the stretch he seems to be trying to do too much by himself and trying to play hero ball. To be fair to him, others are often standing around. Interesting that last night our two top scorers were something like 9/13 from three but only 2/18 inside the arc. Overall we were 17/43 inside the arc. (Jones and Young were 8/14) We got outrebounded by 19 last night. We committed about double the fouls Rutgers did. These show that all our youth means were are just not strong enough to deal with playing inside or we are not effective getting it inside to other players down the stretch.
We are not terrible and are seeing some nice development. We are terrible down the stretch
We have a lot of good players as evidenced by the fact that we've led a lot of very good teams throughout segments of a game. As many have mentioned, the issue is playing a complete game and closing the deal in the end. Seems to me that's a combination of good coaching, good offensive play design and talent. If we can score readily in certain portions of the game, it seems we have the talent. So I'm guessing it's some combination of the other two factors.
How much of it is that we are changing the way we play down the stretch and how much is it that our opponents are changing they way they are playing?
to me, it is like all of the constantly recycled superhero movies - the actor that plays Batman may change, but he still fights crime, Bruce Wayne is his secret identity and he beats the bad guy. Likewise NU BB. Names change, but we lose a ton of games where we have the lead and can't hold it, most often because the opponent goes on something like a 16-2 tear to erase our lead. Whereas, you can count on one hand, outside of the tourney year, where we've done the same to a conference opponent during my time of following the team.
I don't want to go on a rant because a) I don't know enough about this (or many things) to speak intelligently and b) it isn't the Rant board, but this could be our worst season this century, and the alarming collapse since 2017 is, well, alarming.
The reason the team is young is because the coach previously recruited or developed poorly.
this come up in another thread when we were talking about Butler. the NU players will rarely match the other B1G schools when they are young. They are too much of a developmental program.
easiest answer would be you are young until your players get old.
There were mistakes on trying to get the second guy that could play PG that set us back several years, especially when couple with the Lathon. In CBB, the PG is the most important guy and we have geerally had a tough time getting one on board. The Vassar and Brown episodes were an attempt to address this and change our reality but they did not work. Hopefully it looks like CCC has corrected this and has a couple guys that are going to be in the system that can change our dynamic. Now if he can correct the issues going down the stretch...
Everyone else has weighed in, but I think the biggest missing item in the close out situations is an experienced big man. Starting a Pardon-like player in a low post and moving him to a high post once the defense shows gives the ball handler a chance to make an escape pass that an experienced post player can complete to a reversal when the defense doubles like they did yesterday. Not having a post player who is trusted to receive the ball and set the unguarded player up cripples an offense in those situations. If I would hope for any adjustment from Collins, it would be putting Young into the flow to make that play or learn from his mistakes.
If we had a big that was more of a scorer, we still would not give him the ball. He'd be setting screens at the 3 point line and doing dribble hand offs.
