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It’s time to move on from Collins

Frankly, we have one player who could probably start for every team, except Michigan and Iowa. For our team to get competitive, we have to hit on every recruit. No misses. How realistic is that?

Realistically there's only 5 to 10 players in the conference that can start for every team. The best in each position and a few that can play multiple positions.

You need 7 players on rotation as a minimum. Bare minimum. And you can course-correct, to some extent, in the transfer market. Look at Minny, was a decimated team with Oturu leaving and one role player graduating. Jump to this season, 3 transfers starting.

I do agree with most of what you said. For me it comes down to:
1) BC improved the program, not because of recruiting, but because he intimately knew an offensive system that boded well for sub par talent. Still, that was not enough to get us dancing, at best we could hope to get very lucky once in 20 years.
2) CC improved the program because he (dramatically) improved recruiting. It appears to me that gives us hope that, with some luck, we could go dancing once every 10 years. Why? Because beyond recruiting he has not been savvy enough to develop players (few exceptions). Or to make good decisions in practice, game prep, and on the sidelines. In my mind, to make us legit hoping to dance once every 4 years, with his limitations, he'd have to recruit at a level comparable to near the blue bloods. I hope I'm wrong.

Next year we will see. 10+ scholarship players. Kopp and Nance will be seniors, two of (arguably) the best recruits we ever had. 9 years for a coach to have learned how to not be outsmarted in conference play. If he can't do it, I'm not sure how we can hope to be fans of a less frustrating program.
 
Realistically there's only 5 to 10 players in the conference that can start for every team. The best in each position and a few that can play multiple positions.

You need 7 players on rotation as a minimum. Bare minimum. And you can course-correct, to some extent, in the transfer market. Look at Minny, was a decimated team with Oturu leaving and one role player graduating. Jump to this season, 3 transfers starting.

I do agree with most of what you said. For me it comes down to:
1) BC improved the program, not because of recruiting, but because he intimately knew an offensive system that boded well for sub par talent. Still, that was not enough to get us dancing, at best we could hope to get very lucky once in 20 years.
2) CC improved the program because he (dramatically) improved recruiting. It appears to me that gives us hope that, with some luck, we could go dancing once every 10 years. Why? Because beyond recruiting he has not been savvy enough to develop players (few exceptions). Or to make good decisions in practice, game prep, and on the sidelines. In my mind, to make us legit hoping to dance once every 4 years, with his limitations, he'd have to recruit at a level comparable to near the blue bloods. I hope I'm wrong.

Next year we will see. 10+ scholarship players. Kopp and Nance will be seniors, two of (arguably) the best recruits we ever had. 9 years for a coach to have learned how to not be outsmarted in conference play. If he can't do it, I'm not sure how we can hope to be fans of a less frustrating program.
I was going to add, until you did that there are only 10 scholarship players on this years team. That needs to change, permanently. help me out, why does NU only have 10 players on scholarship?
 
I wasn’t a Kellogg guy, but a business school type of analysis makes some sense to me; since I’m an almost geriatric mathematician, forgive me for not being the sharpest user of business school jargon.

I have always thought Collins was a smart hire. He brought the family name, Duke pedigree and Chicago area roots that allowed him to get a few recruits that bought into the “let’s build the Duke of the Midwest and I will be on the ground floor” mentality, which brought BMac, Law and Lindsey. He figured out how to use Lumpkin, saw the potential in Pardon (who was a decent but not top 200 prospect) and got to the tourney. Since then, the combination of coaching philosophy (play like Duke plays) and recruiting limitations that arise academically and historically from NU being NU, and the B1G being a brutal conference have resulted in some bad years. The players are not quite good enough relative to the style of ball, and the teams have been locked near the cellar. Collins’ best value to NU was the promise of change with a plausible path to success. That value has been spent, and a few consecutive years of success that would have been needed to validate the initial premise in the long term have not materialized.

Maybe the combination of new recruits and current talent make next year magic. I hope so, but for analysis’ sake let’s assume next year is another losing season, leading to a coaching change. What are Northwestern’s strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats relative to finding a coach for its program?

Strengths to me would be that the University is academically world-class, that the support facilities and staff are high quality, that the B1G is a top conference and the Chicago area is high profile. Television revenue tied to the B1G also gives a fair amount of salary leverage.

Weaknesses are that academic recruiting standards bar a number of good players, the history isn’t there, the fan base is small.

Opportunities are that college basketball has moved toward shorter college careers for top talent (one and done), the game has expanded radically internationally due to the NBA’s success, and despite the one tournament team, the aura of making NU competitive would make a coach’s reputation for life, or give a name coach with a fading reputation one last shot at glory.

Threats are that immediate success is not very likely, and any hire would need to weather a few really thin years since the B1G is so tough, that big donors might lose patience and put away their checkbooks, and that an ambitious up and coming coach or a fading name coach might cut corners and bruise the university’s reputation.

I personally think the profile for an incoming coach could go one of two ways.
One way would be to plan on building a team around international recruits, and recruit a coach who either is currently coaching internationally or who has great connections internationally. The best model for this might be St. Mary’s, which had almost nothing going for it but became a development team for the Australian National team. The visibilty of the B1G, the fact that Chicago is an internationally recognized city, and the quality of the academics all make NU a possibility for this strategy.

The second way is to recognize that NU won’t get one and done’s and find a mid major coach who emphasizes interior defense, rebounding and a slow game using players who develop into the style over a longer cycle. This is essentially the Wisconsin model.

In either case, I think success is a pretty long way away. More and more, though, I think going the international recruiting model might be NU’s best bet post-Collins, whenever that is and assuming he doesn’t in a last gasp start to win consistently.
 
Interesting conversation you all are having here. I'm not weighing in on Collins either way, but do have a question for Northwestern fans; under your current coach(and also his predecessor) what would you cite as the definition of the program? In other words what thing, or things do you always know will be the staples of the team? For example as a Purdue fan I know that Painter led teams will always include defense, toughness, some outside shooters and an interior presence. Your football program has a very good(and consistent) set of things that most opponents will see, so what is it in basketball?
 
Interesting conversation you all are having here. I'm not weighing in on Collins either way, but do have a question for Northwestern fans; under your current coach(and also his predecessor) what would you cite as the definition of the program? In other words what thing, or things do you always know will be the staples of the team? For example as a Purdue fan I know that Painter led teams will always include defense, toughness, some outside shooters and an interior presence. Your football program has a very good(and consistent) set of things that most opponents will see, so what is it in basketball?
A 5 at the top of the key looking lost, doing dribble hand offs and setting screens. To look less lost, replace said 5 with a 4 and place said 5 on the bench.

More seriously, this has come up on this board, the lack of identity on how we play.

I personally used to think we had fairly good defensive principles. Good routines, leading to better defense than our lack of athleticism would suggest. But that went sideways when we won a game with a 1-3-1 zone. And later decided we were going to be the Houston Rockets.
 
A 5 at the top of the key looking lost, doing dribble hand offs and setting screens. To look less lost, replace said 5 with a 4 and place said 5 on the bench.

More seriously, this has come up on this board, the lack of identity on how we play.

I personally used to think we had fairly good defensive principles. Good routines, leading to better defense than our lack of athleticism would suggest. But that went sideways when we won a game with a 1-3-1 zone. And later decided we were going to be the Houston Rockets.

The one good team in the Collins’ years had a center who played with length (Pardon) and a muscular PF (Lumpkin) who could hold position. That core gave the team some defensive stability and rebounding parity. It has mystified me as to how Collins has not developed a complementary tandem like that since, consediring neither were top 200 recruits.
 
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I personally think the profile for an incoming coach could go one of two ways.
One way would be to plan on building a team around international recruits, and recruit a coach who either is currently coaching internationally or who has great connections internationally. The best model for this might be St. Mary’s, which had almost nothing going for it but became a development team for the Australian National team. The visibilty of the B1G, the fact that Chicago is an internationally recognized city, and the quality of the academics all make NU a possibility for this strategy.

The second way is to recognize that NU won’t get one and done’s and find a mid major coach who emphasizes interior defense, rebounding and a slow game using players who develop into the style over a longer cycle. This is essentially the Wisconsin model.

In either case, I think success is a pretty long way away. More and more, though, I think going the international recruiting model might be NU’s best bet post-Collins, whenever that is and assuming he doesn’t in a last gasp start to win consistently.

Appreciate the thoughtful post. While Wisconsin and Purdue aren't necessarily "glamour" brands like Michigan or Michigan State, they've consistently built a pipeline of talent where they've been able to get old and stay old. NU's gotta figure that out.

Collins missed on Benson-Falzon-Ash-Ivanauskas-Brown . Hard for me to blame it all on Collins as he was able to have a two-year run that produced BMac/Law/Lindsey/Skelly/Pardon - which even at its peak, got to 6th in the B1G.

Even before the 3 wins to start the season, this was always going to be a developmental year. Can we get back to 6th-8th in B1G in '22 with the Kopp/Nance/Buie/Beran/Young/Audige/Greer as upperclassmen? And even if they do, is it plausible Berry/Nicholson/Barnhizer/Simmons/Roper can hold that standard when they are upperclassmen?

Personally, I wanna see it play out. If the new AD doesn't think so, then I hope they got someone tapped that's got that international pipeline thing figured out, or at least a couple other dependable pipelines.
 
Appreciate the thoughtful post. While Wisconsin and Purdue aren't necessarily "glamour" brands like Michigan or Michigan State, they've consistently built a pipeline of talent where they've been able to get old and stay old. NU's gotta figure that out.

Collins missed on Benson-Falzon-Ash-Ivanauskas-Brown . Hard for me to blame it all on Collins as he was able to have a two-year run that produced BMac/Law/Lindsey/Skelly/Pardon - which even at its peak, got to 6th in the B1G.

Even before the 3 wins to start the season, this was always going to be a developmental year. Can we get back to 6th-8th in B1G in '22 with the Kopp/Nance/Buie/Beran/Young/Audige/Greer as upperclassmen? And even if they do, is it plausible Berry/Nicholson/Barnhizer/Simmons/Roper can hold that standard when they are upperclassmen?

Personally, I wanna see it play out. If the new AD doesn't think so, then I hope they got someone tapped that's got that international pipeline thing figured out, or at least a couple other dependable pipelines.

How do admissions come into play with that "international pipeline"? Is that a loophole that could be exploited? I ask because I'm fairly confident 95%+ of kids outside anglo countries have very very limited knowledge of the language. On top of that, they don't tend to be good students in their native language either.

I do understand pipelines often imply spending a transition year in HS in America, etc. And that we had success with a few players in the past. Just trying to reconcile admissions in all of this.
 
It's possible that the lack of "Homegrown" talent deserves to be talked about a bit more.

Using rankings from TOS:

Vic Law: #6 player in IL in 2014 class
Scottie Lindsey: #19 player in IL in 2014 class
Jordan Ash: #9 player in IL in 2015 class
Rapolas Ivanauskas: #4 player in IL in 2016 class
Barret Benson: #5 player in IL in 2016 class

To your point, since then, NU hasn't gotten an IL guy, and lately doesn't even seem to be trying except for the very very top:

2017: Missed Jordan Goodwin (#2), Nojel Eastern (#3) and Justin Smith (#4)

2018: Missed Ayo Dosunmu (#1), Talen Horton-Tucker (#3) and Tim Finke (#8)

2019: Missed E.J. Liddell (#1)

2020: Missed Adam Miller (#2)

2021: Missed Max Christie (#1) and Bryce Hopkins (#2)

Maybe part of it is Collins felt burned by Ash/Rap/Benson not panning out, I don't know. But without homegrown Thorson/JJTBC anchoring the offense for all those years, it's an open question whether NU football would have reached the level it's at right now. Sometimes, you need good local guys for a program to be successful. It worked with Law and Lindsey and BMac. Maybe there's an intangible local/regional pride that we're missing.
Part of it is that the local talent has dropped off significantly. Going off of 247's composite list, it looks like this:

Year5-star4-star3-starMajor/MidMaj/NonD1
2014351814/11/1
2015151511/7/3
20160277/1/1
201705177/8/7
201804136/9/2
201901113/6/3
20201186/3/1
20211345/2/1

So yeah, we're lacking in local talent, because we've gone after the top and missed. Since the 2016 class, it's been slim pickings. Many of these players listed in the table didn't even end up in D1, and who knows how many of them would even qualify academically for NU?
 
How do admissions come into play with that "international pipeline"? Is that a loophole that could be exploited? I ask because I'm fairly confident 95%+ of kids outside anglo countries have very very limited knowledge of the language. On top of that, they don't tend to be good students in their native language either.

I do understand pipelines often imply spending a transition year in HS in America, etc. And that we had success with a few players in the past. Just trying to reconcile admissions in all of this.

Carmody sort of tried the international pipeline strategy. We got some decent players like Vukusic, Mo Hachad, and uh TJ Parker I guess if he counts.
 
I wasn’t a Kellogg guy, but a business school type of analysis makes some sense to me; since I’m an almost geriatric mathematician, forgive me for not being the sharpest user of business school jargon.

I have always thought Collins was a smart hire. He brought the family name, Duke pedigree and Chicago area roots that allowed him to get a few recruits that bought into the “let’s build the Duke of the Midwest and I will be on the ground floor” mentality, which brought BMac, Law and Lindsey. He figured out how to use Lumpkin, saw the potential in Pardon (who was a decent but not top 200 prospect) and got to the tourney. Since then, the combination of coaching philosophy (play like Duke plays) and recruiting limitations that arise academically and historically from NU being NU, and the B1G being a brutal conference have resulted in some bad years. The players are not quite good enough relative to the style of ball, and the teams have been locked near the cellar. Collins’ best value to NU was the promise of change with a plausible path to success. That value has been spent, and a few consecutive years of success that would have been needed to validate the initial premise in the long term have not materialized.

Maybe the combination of new recruits and current talent make next year magic. I hope so, but for analysis’ sake let’s assume next year is another losing season, leading to a coaching change. What are Northwestern’s strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats relative to finding a coach for its program?

Strengths to me would be that the University is academically world-class, that the support facilities and staff are high quality, that the B1G is a top conference and the Chicago area is high profile. Television revenue tied to the B1G also gives a fair amount of salary leverage.

Weaknesses are that academic recruiting standards bar a number of good players, the history isn’t there, the fan base is small.

Opportunities are that college basketball has moved toward shorter college careers for top talent (one and done), the game has expanded radically internationally due to the NBA’s success, and despite the one tournament team, the aura of making NU competitive would make a coach’s reputation for life, or give a name coach with a fading reputation one last shot at glory.

Threats are that immediate success is not very likely, and any hire would need to weather a few really thin years since the B1G is so tough, that big donors might lose patience and put away their checkbooks, and that an ambitious up and coming coach or a fading name coach might cut corners and bruise the university’s reputation.

I personally think the profile for an incoming coach could go one of two ways.
One way would be to plan on building a team around international recruits, and recruit a coach who either is currently coaching internationally or who has great connections internationally. The best model for this might be St. Mary’s, which had almost nothing going for it but became a development team for the Australian National team. The visibilty of the B1G, the fact that Chicago is an internationally recognized city, and the quality of the academics all make NU a possibility for this strategy.

The second way is to recognize that NU won’t get one and done’s and find a mid major coach who emphasizes interior defense, rebounding and a slow game using players who develop into the style over a longer cycle. This is essentially the Wisconsin model.

In either case, I think success is a pretty long way away. More and more, though, I think going the international recruiting model might be NU’s best bet post-Collins, whenever that is and assuming he doesn’t in a last gasp start to win consistently.
Who are the top guys in Croatia?
 
Part of it is that the local talent has dropped off significantly. Going off of 247's composite list, it looks like this:

Year5-star4-star3-starMajor/MidMaj/NonD1
2014351814/11/1
2015151511/7/3
20160277/1/1
201705177/8/7
201804136/9/2
201901113/6/3
20201186/3/1
20211345/2/1

So yeah, we're lacking in local talent, because we've gone after the top and missed. Since the 2016 class, it's been slim pickings. Many of these players listed in the table didn't even end up in D1, and who knows how many of them would even qualify academically for NU?

Good stuff, thanks. Yeah, the lack of 4-star talent in recent years (which I consider NU’s sweet spot, realistically) is rough. Hope that turns around.
 
Can we get back to 6th-8th in B1G in '22 with the Kopp/Nance/Buie/Beran/Young/Audige/Greer as upperclassmen?


Unlike some previous years at this point 6th or 8th in the Big Ten is basically a top 25 level team. I would imagine next season will be similar as there is a lack of 1st round picks in the league this year.
 
Carmody sort of tried the international pipeline strategy. We got some decent players like Vukusic, Mo Hachad, and uh TJ Parker I guess if he counts.
Mirkovic and Olah were also okay, although they played high school ball here.

We also had Nikola Baran, Davor Duvancic, Ivan Tolic, Nikola Cerina (by way of TCU), Ivan Puljusic, Tomas Soltau, Chier Ajou and I’m sure I’m missing one or two more.
 
Mirkovic and Olah were also okay, although they played high school ball here.

We also had Nikola Baran, Davor Duvancic, Ivan Tolic, Nikola Cerina (by way of TCU), Ivan Puljusic, Tomas Soltau, Chier Ajou and I’m sure I’m missing one or two more.
Rowley was originally from the Caribbean.

Vedran was the first, and definitely the best.
 
The hope was that he could recruit a different kind of talent to NU but that hasn’t happened. For NU to compete with inferior athletes they need to be impeccably coached and Collins just isn’t a good X’s and O’s coach. He’s not working out here. Our program is going backwards.

An oldie but goodie. Amazing how Collins was able to right the ship.
 
This an over reaction. Team missed free throws from a normally good free throw shooting team is not coaching. Missed wide open shots that’s not coaching. Coaching is getting them an offense that gets them open shots. They just didn’t hit. To call for his head after 1 loss is ludicrous.
The arguments that these players are bad and or aren’t developing is horrible. Just because shots aren’t falling doesn’t mean there’s strides in other parts of the game. Buie is filling a completely different role then he did last year and no one is talking about it. He’s been the main distributor. Ya he choked last night. The offense still runs best when he’s on the floor.
The hate for nance is cuz you hyped him to much in your minds and held him to unrealistic expectations. Dude is athletic and smooth. Long and great at help D. Not a great shooter but good enough. He passes really well too. He’s improved every season as well.
Who the hell cares if young starts. It’s about who logs the most min and guess what young logged a lot of min last night.
This team had the athletes and the better team last night. They just choked. You can’t miss that many shots and not rebound. You can’t miss free throws down the stretch. You can’t have your best scorer have that off a night. I don’t see this game as Collins fault. Players failed him last night. If this game repeats itself throughout the season then blame it on him. This whole thread is a crazy overreaction though.
Been on the Buie train for a long time. Not just a scorer.
 
It’s amazing how much better tactics, X’s and O’s, and your coaching looks when you have the best PG in the B1G and one of the best players in the nation.
Some really bad takes on here. We aren’t the 93 Bulls by any means, but having that superstar player makes all the difference in the world. Coaches need players.
 
Appreciate the thoughtful post. While Wisconsin and Purdue aren't necessarily "glamour" brands like Michigan or Michigan State, they've consistently built a pipeline of talent where they've been able to get old and stay old. NU's gotta figure that out.

Collins missed on Benson-Falzon-Ash-Ivanauskas-Brown . Hard for me to blame it all on Collins as he was able to have a two-year run that produced BMac/Law/Lindsey/Skelly/Pardon - which even at its peak, got to 6th in the B1G.

Even before the 3 wins to start the season, this was always going to be a developmental year. Can we get back to 6th-8th in B1G in '22 with the Kopp/Nance/Buie/Beran/Young/Audige/Greer as upperclassmen? And even if they do, is it plausible Berry/Nicholson/Barnhizer/Simmons/Roper can hold that standard when they are upperclassmen?

Personally, I wanna see it play out. If the new AD doesn't think so, then I hope they got someone tapped that's got that international pipeline thing figured out, or at least a couple other dependable pipelines.


I wondered if we could get to 6th-8th in '22. What actually happened:
2022: 7-13 / 11th place in B1G
2023: 12-8 / 2nd place in B1G

That '22 squad lost 6 games with a 2 possession or less margin, and despite losing Nance, Kopp and Young (and not having Roper for most of B1G), that '23 team benefited from the senior leadership of Buie and Audige. If you average those teams, they're in that 6th-8th tier that I had hoped.



Credit to Collins for improving his "hit-rate" for recruits. The "Junior Class" may have lost Roper and Simmons, but Ty Berry, Brooks Barnhizer, Matthew Nicholson are legit B1G starters. "Sophomores" Nick Martinelli was bound for mid major obscurity at Elon, and now he's a legit 6th man. Luke Hunger is virtually a freshman after being out last year for an injury, and has already made contributions.

What's unclear is whether or not Jordan Clayton, Parker Strauss, Blake Barkley, and Justin Mullins are going to continue that trend as they can't crack the lineup, but at this point, I gotta give Collins the benefit of the doubt. He's on a hot streak. Plus, I'm salivating over Angelo Ciaravino highlights, and KJ Windham is starting to blow up.

All in all, it's great to see that patience has been rewarded.
 
I wondered if we could get to 6th-8th in '22. What actually happened:
2022: 7-13 / 11th place in B1G
2023: 12-8 / 2nd place in B1G

That '22 squad lost 6 games with a 2 possession or less margin, and despite losing Nance, Kopp and Young (and not having Roper for most of B1G), that '23 team benefited from the senior leadership of Buie and Audige. If you average those teams, they're in that 6th-8th tier that I had hoped.



Credit to Collins for improving his "hit-rate" for recruits. The "Junior Class" may have lost Roper and Simmons, but Ty Berry, Brooks Barnhizer, Matthew Nicholson are legit B1G starters. "Sophomores" Nick Martinelli was bound for mid major obscurity at Elon, and now he's a legit 6th man. Luke Hunger is virtually a freshman after being out last year for an injury, and has already made contributions.

What's unclear is whether or not Jordan Clayton, Parker Strauss, Blake Barkley, and Justin Mullins are going to continue that trend as they can't crack the lineup, but at this point, I gotta give Collins the benefit of the doubt. He's on a hot streak. Plus, I'm salivating over Angelo Ciaravino highlights, and KJ Windham is starting to blow up.

All in all, it's great to see that patience has been rewarded.
I share your excitement about Ciaravino and Windham.
 
This is what bad coaches do — figure out ways to lose winnable games. Collins has mastered the art. I don’t think NU will get rid him because of the institutional inferiority complex that implies we can’t do any better. But I don’t expect this program to ever be competitive for an NCAA berth again while he’s here.
Selection Sunday Watch Party at Welsh Ryan: back-to-back years, hope you'll be there or tuning in to the selection show.
 
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NU won't get rid of him because he still has four years left on his contract after this one, and they simply won't buy out that much.

Any other high major program would have dumped him after last season.
You should show up to Welsh Ryan on Sunday for the selection show and tell him that.
 
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You should show up to Welsh Ryan on Sunday for the selection show and tell him that.

As silly as some of these posts look in hindsight, Styre's post is quite fair. How many high major programs would have stuck with a coach that went 15-17, 13-19, and 8-23 in three consecutive seasons?

Also, I get bringing back threads at times. But I can't blame people for the emotions after that loss to Pitt. Our program looked to be in a really bad spot. And the 10-game losing streak didn't help later that year.

Ultimately, I'm thankful we are where we are now. Go 'Cats!
 
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As silly as some of these posts look in hindsight, Styre's post is quite fair. How many high major programs would have stuck with a coach that went 15-17, 13-19, and 8-23 in three consecutive seasons?

Also, I get bringing back threads at times. But I can't blame people for the emotions after that loss to Pitt. Our program looked to be in a really bad spot. And the 10-game losing streak didn't help later that year.

Ultimately, I'm thankful we are where we are now. Go 'Cats!
Agreed. There isn't anyone here like INU's AyanKB, who exulted in Fitz's failures. The guy figured it out (with the help of another guy named Chris, btw). Anyone looking at BBall's trajectory after the first tourney appearance would have been alarmed.

He grew as a coach and a person. And a gigantic majority of Cats fans are happy about it.
 
As the one who apparently started this thread, I absolutely stick by where I was on that day. The program looked to be losing all of its momentum, and quite frankly, was not fun to watch. The miracle that was last year and the way unheralded recruits have emerged is a giant success story. But no betting man (or non-betting man) would have predicted this two years ago.
 
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I am all for being juvenile as some of my failures at joking demonstrates. But bumping this thread is just childish.
 
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