Details ... yet again.
Anybody with half a basketball brain understands top 100s is not a reference to SOS.
We're playing in the deep end with the big kids, Mystic. Why don't you go play in the kiddy pool where you belong. You're drowning ... again.
Just something to ponder
- Thread starter catsattackfor3
- Start date
Details ... yet again.
Anybody with half a basketball brain understands top 100s is not a reference to SOS.
We're playing in the deep end with the big kids, Mystic. Why don't you go play in the kiddy pool where you belong. You're drowning ... again.
My apologies for setting the bomb, catsattack. To Jonny2's point, at least I understood your direction on the fourth try.
My bad.I'd argue we've turned "a" corner. But there's still a lot of lefts and rights to get to a reasonable destination.
I'd be surprised if anybody cares about NITs. To me, NITs vs. this year is just a different shade of grey.
I don't think by any means is the program automatic for consistent upper-half conference finishes. Nothing is concrete next year with so many freshmen.
But is there a stronger possibility with Pardon, Law and two top 100s. Definitely!!
I don't think we'll know if this can be a consistent NCAA program until the Nance/Kopp class graduates. That will be generally two recruiting cycles for Collins.
I think it would be a lot to ask ANY coach to bring NU from a regular first or second round NIT team to a consistent NCAA team in five years. That step takes a longer time. There are still traits that will always be a part of NU's DNA that make turning all the corners more difficult than other B10 schools.
I do not get the criticism for the tech. Nor do I get those NU fans who focus on Collins, in this instance, rather than the officials.
The tech was called at the 4:54 mark when three officials missed a blatant goal tend that should have cut the margin to three.
Had it been under two minutes the criticism might be more justified but there was a ton of basketball left and Gonzaga played well at the end. So, no, it wasn't the turning point that lost NU the game.
But it's another one of those litmus tests. There's a very small group of NU faithful who see Collins as a bad guy undeserving of the job. To a person they see the tech as rank incompetence. They see him as a coach who ruthlessly Creans players. They see NU recruiting under Collins as not much better than his predecessor. They see last year as a confluence of great luck that allowed a lesser team to sneak in.
The criticism of Collins among that group is deeper than that held by the most virulent Iowa or Illinois anti-NU fan. I was a big supporter of Carmody and I didn't get the hate then. This is a different, deeper hate and not about basketball.
We were already down RAP and Falzon wans't where we thought he would be in recovery. Add in that Turner could not play this year and having one open scholarship and we were already pretty thin. We seemed to have turned a corner and were looking better after putting in the zone and getting back to 6-6 in BIG and then came the critical injuries BMAC, ASH, and then LAW. If they had been available, anyone really think we would have gone 0-5 down the stretch?
I think he was referring to the recruits. And in 13 BC years there were..... Oh yah. None. And as far as records, BC had 2 teams with 3 BIG wins ...in year 7 and 8 ...combined (and don't forget the 4 in his final year. . CC has never been under 6
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Just for some historical context: the declaration that the class of 2018 is the "best recruiting class in NU history" is debatable. The Rankin/Baldwin/Kirkpatrick/Leslie 1990 class was highly rated, with Rankin especially coveted. Also, the 1995 class was ranked by some services close to where this class is rated. Joe Harmsen was a top 50/top 75 recruit on most lists at the time. Nick Knapp was regarded as one of the best shooters in the class. Unfortunately, heart troubles ruined his career. Julian Bonner was also very well-regarded and hovering around top 100 status.
You heard the same things at the time as far as "turning the corner" in recruiting for Bill Foster and then later for Ricky Byrdsong. Time will tell with the current class.
I have this thought about Carmody I would like to share. He sucks.
Couldn’t agree more.
I like 10th place in the Big Ten. 150 nationally. Creaning some more guys. Losing 3 starters.
Maybe next year we’ll go .500 overall. That would be fun.
And maybe next year, we’ll just schedule one non DIivision I opponent.
I'll give you the 1990 class as pretty dam good but really don't remember Harmesen or Bonner as being mentioned as program changers. Also don't think any of Byrdsong's classes as being highly acclaimed and most of the Foster buzz was because of the transfers he brought in and his past record. The point is that in order to truly build a program up you need to bring in 3, 4 or 5 top rated classes back to back to back.
You may disagree with the premise of the post, but it was done in a well intentioned manner. Perhaps the thread could have been pushed back a week or so (to the offseason), but there's no need to try to stiffle the conversation. Echo chambers aren't conducive for lively debate.
If we were to all ignore the single troll on (Mystic) on this thread, it's very possible the discussion wouldn't degenerate.
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Just the facts: 10th place in the league, 150th nationally. Corner turned.
The poor memories or willful ignorance of some people here isn't my problem nor do they erase facts. I even saw one joker in this thread actually claim that the previous coach never signed a top 100 recruit! "The past it whatever we misremember it as! Especially when it's convenient to our current argument!!!"
Here's link to a Trib story on the 1995 class. At that time, the biggest names in the recruiting business were Bob Gibbons, Dave Telep of The Recruiter's Handbook and Van Coleman of Future Stars. Coleman rated the class 28th, which is probably about where the 2018 class will be when all is said and done. I see 247 has it rated #21 currently. Harmsen was considered a breakthrough recruit at that time, considering who all was after him. Bonner also had a very nice list of high-major schools after him and was one of the best prep players in Michigan.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ong-athletic-director-rick-taylor-speculation
From the Trib article posted above by Cometclear, this was in Ricky Brydsong's office and is true even today:
In Byrdsong's office there's a picture captioned: "The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are but in what direction we are moving."
I'd say the direction NU is moving is positive even if the location today is not what we want.
Collins' incoming class is right there with any NU class since the 1960's. I liked a lot of the players Carmody brought in as my former role as president of both the Jershon Cobb and Sanjay Lumpkin fan clubs attests.
I'm really excited about the incoming class in part for the exact reason a couple have posted: I haven't seen them play college ball yet so the guy I don't know is better than the one I do.
The buzz with Lathon and Kopp from NU is the exact same we heard about with Law and B Mac. We were told they'd start, they did, and they were pretty good for frosh. And they aren't the big prize in the class.
I know it's important to compare one recruiting class to another so you can justify the public hate felt for the coach you don't like.
However, for NU bball, grading the overall roster might be a better barometer. This year's overall roster is the most talented in a long, long time. Next year's, I believe, will be better.
NU is losing three guys who had big minutes and gains four guys who will get minutes, one of whom played the most minutes for his Big East team.
Plenty of talent there to gel and size and athleticism are better.
I'm really excited about the incoming class in part for the exact reason a couple have posted: I haven't seen them play college ball yet so the guy I don't know is better than the one I do.
The buzz with Lathon and Kopp from NU is the exact same we heard about with Law and B Mac. We were told they'd start, they did, and they were pretty good for frosh. And they aren't the big prize in the class.
I know it's important to compare one recruiting class to another so you can justify the public hate felt for the coach you don't like.
However, for NU bball, grading the overall roster might be a better barometer. This year's overall roster is the most talented in a long, long time. Next year's, I believe, will be better.
NU is losing three guys who had big minutes and gains four guys who will get minutes, one of whom played the most minutes for his Big East team.
Plenty of talent there to gel and size and athleticism are better.
Byrdsong's widow is a substitute teacher in Evanston. She's a special human being.
Sure it's fine to remember the good things that have happened with NU basketball but when you have to back over 20 years in an attempt to disparage the current coaches, I'd say that's a long reach. I don't know which player your referencing as a top 100 recruit but I do remember that during the previous coaches years at NU he never had 5 let alone 6 or 7 Big Ten caliber starters on the squad. I do remember however that he couldn't bother being present when a kid with relatives attached to the school came for a visit. Or let's remember law's father stating that his son would not have attended NU if there wasn't a coaching change, Just saying.
Totally agree but you forgot that there will five new faces next season and at Turner has a good chance to start and contribute.
I believe he said "four guys who will get minutes, one of whom played the most minutes for his Big East team", which is Mr. Turner......
My apologies for setting the bomb, catsattack. To Jonny2's point, at least I understood your direction on the fourth try.
I'd argue we've turned "a" corner. But there's still a lot of lefts and rights to get to a reasonable destination.
I'd be surprised if anybody cares about NITs. To me, NITs vs. this year is just a different shade of grey.
I don't think by any means is the program automatic for consistent upper-half conference finishes. Nothing is concrete next year with so many freshmen.
But is there a stronger possibility with Pardon, Law and two top 100s. Definitely!!
I don't think we'll know if this can be a consistent NCAA program until the Nance/Kopp class graduates. That will be generally two recruiting cycles for Collins.
I think it would be a lot to ask ANY coach to bring NU from a regular first or second round NIT team to a consistent NCAA team in five years. That step takes a longer time. There are still traits that will always be a part of NU's DNA that make turning all the corners more difficult than other B10 schools.
And that DNA, 112, is a big part of why I'm a fan of the program.
Guess I missed the "get minutes", sorry. So is Young the one guy who's not being counted on to contribute immediately? Does Nance have enough bulk to compete as a freshman?
Yes, Nance will get minutes. He is a Top 100 recruit and will definitely be in the regular rotation. Young, probably not. Collins has shown he won't tolerate guys who can't perform at B1G levels and Young probably will need more seasoning.
I have written many times that this is Collins' first head coaching gig and patience is required. I have written that he has done great things already. For whatever reason, this forum is largely bereft of objective fans. There's a lot of groupthink here and when anyone offers even mild criticism, it's met "You're Carmody nuthugger!" or "You're a troll!" or "What was your previous username?!?!" That kind of piffle. Grow thicker skin or just grow up, period. Don't expect to post stuff that is just plain factually inaccurate in rewriting history out of the mistaken notion that if you can fib about past coaches, it will make the current one look better. It doesn't.
My like is for the use of piffle. The post is ok, but piffle is good stuff.
Don't have to make things up because the current is head and shoulders better then the previous one or 8. I always liked Bill Rohr and the teams he produced.
Did you know Bill Carmody didn’t wear a tie because he hated America?
I just wanted to post something about Ricky too. He was a good guy. He made that obviously horrible decision, but he was not an awful coach.
If Eschmeyer plays with Rankin, Leslie, Baldwin etc, we're having a different discussion about Ricky.
If Eschmeyer plays with Geno, we're having a different discussion also.
Was going to wait until the season was over to do a postmortem, but I guess now is as good of a time as any - as likely no post-season (think the 'Cats can still go on a mini-run in the B1G Tourney, but the chances of them winning it is slim to none).
OK - this season was a major disappointment with plenty of blame (if one wants to call it that), including the 'ol injury bug (altho even when healthy, this season's team wasn't playing to the level of last's season's team).
1. Team not playing like a team (for stretches during the season) - as been referenced by BMac and others, there were too many occasions where players on the court weren't playing like a team - whether it be being out of position, repeated miscommunication, etc. and yes, selfish and/or lackluster play/effort (not going to name names).
In terms of being out of position and miscommunication - those kinds of things shouldn't have happened to a team where the starters have been playing together for 3-4 years and Falzon (a part-time starter) being in the 3rd year in the program.
What does it say when Gaines, a true frosh, starts to emerge later in the season and looks as good as some of the vets (in terms of effort, playing in position, etc.)?
After the season came to a close last year, there were those who thought that Lumpkin and Taphorn would easily be replaced, if not improved upon (which I disagreed with), but it wasn't just what those 2 brought to the court athletically and skill-wise, but what they brought to the team as whole in leadership and selfless play.
While CC inherited and didn't recruit Lumpkin, get a feeling that Sanjay is CC's favorite player that he has coached at NU based on the effusive praise CC has repeatedly given Lumpkin whenever he is brought up (and the look he has in his eyes); in many ways, think Pardon comes closest in filling that role for CC.
2. Lack of depth/talent being the starters.
There were 4 starters who averaged in the double-digits scoring (1 more than last season), but there wasn't enough coming off the bench - which was needed this season as the D wasn't nearly as stout.
Falzon had an OK frosh campaign, but he has yet to bring an impact to the team as the stretch forward like Shurna (or Coble).
Now, who know how much his injury issues has to do w/ that, but right now, he hasn't been am impact player when the team needed another player to rise up (Skelly has done more than what many have expected, but would have been better coming off the bench).
Brown (was in CC's dog-house) and Benson after showing some promise last season never were able to take that next step, Ash showed some improvement, but is a role player (unless shows further improvement) and Gaines, who showed the most flash of potential, played like a frosh most of the season (tho coming on strong lately).
And then there is Rap - who I'm concerned if we'll ever see a fully (or at least close to it) Rap in game action.
BMac, Lindsey and Law had stretches where they didn't shoot well (don't know why Lindsey seemed to get the brunt of criticism when having a poor shooting game when all three were guilty of it) - Pardon being the most consistent of the Big 4, which is exactly why they needed more help from the bench.
Someone who could come in and put up a quick 6 or 8 pts; last year, the team had Tap, Skelly and Brown (to a lesser extent) to fill that role.
3. Coaching
Likely will get some flack/blowback for this - but CC is an average X's and O's coach.
Which is perfectly fine as most coaches heading power-5 and the top mid-major programs are average in that regard (a handful are at the top with others being below avg.); for what it is worth, don't think Coach K, who will go down as one of the best coaches ever, is some genius when it comes to X's and O's.
There have been a few things/decisions that CC has made that have been particularly puzzling - so as taking too long before deciding to utilize more zone D this season and earlier in his HC career, deciding to go w/ an uptempo O (while focusing on D) with a limited roster.
CC's strength (and where is success will come from) is his leadership and recruiting ability - which makes the team's struggles this season with respect to points 1 and 2 more disappointing.
Regarding 1 - a team should take on the coach's personality, but while some of the blame can go up to the HC if leadership is lacking, there's only so much a coach can do and most of the blame goes to the players.
Regarding 2 - recruiting is the lifeblood of a program and after a pretty stellar 1st recruiting class, CC hasn't been able to match it w/ his successive classes (some of it can be attributed to injuries, but even then, we still don't know how good Falzon or Rap would be if healthy).
But as I had stated from the start (when there was some over-exuberance when it came to CC's recruiting), there are going to be some recruits who don't pan out or need time to develop and w/o an advantage in scheme, CC and Co. will have to out-recruit half (if not more) of the other B1G programs on a regular basis - which isn't an easy task (as programs like PSU have landed classes as good as the 2014 class).
But misses happen in recruiting and while it was unfortunate (playing a major role in the 2014 class only making it to the NCAAs, much less the post-season, once), the good news is that the incoming class is the most talented one most of us will have seen as 'Cats fans.
It's going to be important for the program for at least 2 of the incoming frosh to be key contributors - to go along w/ Law, Pardon, Turner, Falzon and the rest of the team.
Due to a disappointing season, probably not going to land as good of a class (but you never know; always the possibility of underrated recruits being a stud like Juice, Shurna or Crawford), so successful 2018-19 campaign will be important to land another good class to back up the 2018 class.
This season sucked big time, but should be nothing more than a temporary blip.
Numerous times, have stated patience - that there could be things that arise which scuttle a promising season (injuries, poor-chemistry, etc,) where the program misses out on making the NCAAs in the 1st 4, 5, 6 years of CC's tenure.
But as long as the trajectory was upwards (while disappointing) would be OK w/ that.
If things had transpired differently, maybe last year's magical run wouldn't have happened.
A case can be made that the 2012-13 - if healthy and fully eligible was as talented as the 2016-17 team that finally broke thru.
Cobb and Hearn (w/ Sobo backing them up) at the guard positions, Crawford and Swop at the forward spots and Olah at center (the one position which wasn't as good as last season).
In addition to Sobo, would have Demps and Marco coming off the bench, as well as a young Lumpkin (for his D).
If Lumpkin hadn't come down w/ mono and then broke his wrist to earn a medical RS, there would be no Lumpkin last season and very possibly no NCAAs (sometimes, things end up working out).
OK - this season was a major disappointment with plenty of blame (if one wants to call it that), including the 'ol injury bug (altho even when healthy, this season's team wasn't playing to the level of last's season's team).
1. Team not playing like a team (for stretches during the season) - as been referenced by BMac and others, there were too many occasions where players on the court weren't playing like a team - whether it be being out of position, repeated miscommunication, etc. and yes, selfish and/or lackluster play/effort (not going to name names).
In terms of being out of position and miscommunication - those kinds of things shouldn't have happened to a team where the starters have been playing together for 3-4 years and Falzon (a part-time starter) being in the 3rd year in the program.
What does it say when Gaines, a true frosh, starts to emerge later in the season and looks as good as some of the vets (in terms of effort, playing in position, etc.)?
After the season came to a close last year, there were those who thought that Lumpkin and Taphorn would easily be replaced, if not improved upon (which I disagreed with), but it wasn't just what those 2 brought to the court athletically and skill-wise, but what they brought to the team as whole in leadership and selfless play.
While CC inherited and didn't recruit Lumpkin, get a feeling that Sanjay is CC's favorite player that he has coached at NU based on the effusive praise CC has repeatedly given Lumpkin whenever he is brought up (and the look he has in his eyes); in many ways, think Pardon comes closest in filling that role for CC.
2. Lack of depth/talent being the starters.
There were 4 starters who averaged in the double-digits scoring (1 more than last season), but there wasn't enough coming off the bench - which was needed this season as the D wasn't nearly as stout.
Falzon had an OK frosh campaign, but he has yet to bring an impact to the team as the stretch forward like Shurna (or Coble).
Now, who know how much his injury issues has to do w/ that, but right now, he hasn't been am impact player when the team needed another player to rise up (Skelly has done more than what many have expected, but would have been better coming off the bench).
Brown (was in CC's dog-house) and Benson after showing some promise last season never were able to take that next step, Ash showed some improvement, but is a role player (unless shows further improvement) and Gaines, who showed the most flash of potential, played like a frosh most of the season (tho coming on strong lately).
And then there is Rap - who I'm concerned if we'll ever see a fully (or at least close to it) Rap in game action.
BMac, Lindsey and Law had stretches where they didn't shoot well (don't know why Lindsey seemed to get the brunt of criticism when having a poor shooting game when all three were guilty of it) - Pardon being the most consistent of the Big 4, which is exactly why they needed more help from the bench.
Someone who could come in and put up a quick 6 or 8 pts; last year, the team had Tap, Skelly and Brown (to a lesser extent) to fill that role.
3. Coaching
Likely will get some flack/blowback for this - but CC is an average X's and O's coach.
Which is perfectly fine as most coaches heading power-5 and the top mid-major programs are average in that regard (a handful are at the top with others being below avg.); for what it is worth, don't think Coach K, who will go down as one of the best coaches ever, is some genius when it comes to X's and O's.
There have been a few things/decisions that CC has made that have been particularly puzzling - so as taking too long before deciding to utilize more zone D this season and earlier in his HC career, deciding to go w/ an uptempo O (while focusing on D) with a limited roster.
CC's strength (and where is success will come from) is his leadership and recruiting ability - which makes the team's struggles this season with respect to points 1 and 2 more disappointing.
Regarding 1 - a team should take on the coach's personality, but while some of the blame can go up to the HC if leadership is lacking, there's only so much a coach can do and most of the blame goes to the players.
Regarding 2 - recruiting is the lifeblood of a program and after a pretty stellar 1st recruiting class, CC hasn't been able to match it w/ his successive classes (some of it can be attributed to injuries, but even then, we still don't know how good Falzon or Rap would be if healthy).
But as I had stated from the start (when there was some over-exuberance when it came to CC's recruiting), there are going to be some recruits who don't pan out or need time to develop and w/o an advantage in scheme, CC and Co. will have to out-recruit half (if not more) of the other B1G programs on a regular basis - which isn't an easy task (as programs like PSU have landed classes as good as the 2014 class).
But misses happen in recruiting and while it was unfortunate (playing a major role in the 2014 class only making it to the NCAAs, much less the post-season, once), the good news is that the incoming class is the most talented one most of us will have seen as 'Cats fans.
It's going to be important for the program for at least 2 of the incoming frosh to be key contributors - to go along w/ Law, Pardon, Turner, Falzon and the rest of the team.
Due to a disappointing season, probably not going to land as good of a class (but you never know; always the possibility of underrated recruits being a stud like Juice, Shurna or Crawford), so successful 2018-19 campaign will be important to land another good class to back up the 2018 class.
This season sucked big time, but should be nothing more than a temporary blip.
Numerous times, have stated patience - that there could be things that arise which scuttle a promising season (injuries, poor-chemistry, etc,) where the program misses out on making the NCAAs in the 1st 4, 5, 6 years of CC's tenure.
But as long as the trajectory was upwards (while disappointing) would be OK w/ that.
If things had transpired differently, maybe last year's magical run wouldn't have happened.
A case can be made that the 2012-13 - if healthy and fully eligible was as talented as the 2016-17 team that finally broke thru.
Cobb and Hearn (w/ Sobo backing them up) at the guard positions, Crawford and Swop at the forward spots and Olah at center (the one position which wasn't as good as last season).
In addition to Sobo, would have Demps and Marco coming off the bench, as well as a young Lumpkin (for his D).
If Lumpkin hadn't come down w/ mono and then broke his wrist to earn a medical RS, there would be no Lumpkin last season and very possibly no NCAAs (sometimes, things end up working out).
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Don't know why some people still make it some that the program 4-5 seasons (before CC was hired) was still mired in a wasteland.
The program had made the postseason 4 out of 5 seasons (would have been 5 out of 5 but for all the injuries in 2012-13) and if they had been a little luckier on the injury front (or if the conf. hadn't been as tough as it was back then) may have broken the non-NCAAs streak first.
And while some may scoff at the NITs, there is something to be said for the consistency, esp. as the program historically only made the NITs once every 4-5 years (if that) when it had a SR-laden team.
Too many make still make it one or the other.
Think that program was in an upward trajectory under BC (even w/ having one hand tied behind his back when it came to his job status and facilities) where the program would have eventually broken thru.
And the same applies to the program under CC.
One diff. is that think the program (going forward) under BC would have been less prone to dips/valleys, but that the program under CC will have higher highs.
Overall (as I had stated before), prefer the program under CC (despite his Dook ties) as tend to place a premium on defense (and let's face it, you're going to limit the talent pool running the Princeton O).
And wasn't just Coble - but Shurna, Cobb, Crawford, Swop, etc.
And both Pardon and Lindsey missed time last season due to injury and illness, respectively, but the 'Cats had just enough depth to scrape by.
maybe some of what you said is true but to indicate that the program was on a upward trajectory is not. In Carmody's last season they went 13-19 and 4-14 in conference. yes they made the NIT four years in a row but still had losing Big Ten records each of those years. face it NU BB is in a much better spot with Collins at the helm then with any of the previous coaches.
While I think it's true that injuries were a major reason this seasons team faltered, I still think it had a awful lot to do with team chemistry. Probably will never know why but it sure looked like a few of the guys just weren't getting along. Also disagree that the 2012-13 squad was as talented as last seasons team. Cobb had limitations and Hearn was a over achieving walk-on and weren't close to being as talented as BMac and Lindsey. Crawford was the real deal but Swop was basically just ok and I would think that Law is about Drew's equal. finally Olah was just Olah and pardon is an overall much better ballplayer. saying that without Lumpkin they wouldn't have made the "Dance" is just plain wrong.
My current thinking on this year is that it was a combo of injuries and some key guys not understanding the opportunity, nor their role in helping the team make a success out of that opportunity. Big Ten seniors (other conferences too) sense the career clock ticking down and reach for the moment. They make key baskets, key stops, etc. When a opponent is down they step on that opponents throat. Haven't seen that at all this year.
On the other topic, are we really comparing the 12-13 team which lost 11 of its last 12 games with last year's team that reached the NCAA round of 32?
I love me some Swop, Cerina, Kale and Ajou....but, really?
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