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Liberman

Article on InsideNU about walk-ons. Among other points was a comment about Aaron Liberman not being able to comment on his experience due to a "non-disclosure" agreement between him and NU. Very strange.

http://www.insidenu.com/2016/4/1/11...-aaron-liberman-reggie-hearn-james-montgomery

With the kind of lawsuits you see these day, I think NU was protecting itself. CCC wasn't as carefree when it came to Liberman's Jewish religion codes (traveling, practicing, and such on prohibited days). I mean, the kid was an inherited walk-on that was never going to play meaningful minutes. CCC probably didn't want that hassle and told him he needs to travel with the team and practice with the team. Obviously, Liberman wasn't keen on that, thus the transfer. Of course, people make lawsuits of all kinds these days, so NU probably thought it best to protect itself by having Liberman sign a NDA.

If Liberman wanted to see on-court action, going elsewhere was in his best interest.
 
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With the kind of lawsuits you see these day, I think NU was protecting itself. CCC wasn't as carefree when it came to Liberman's Jewish religion codes (traveling, practicing, and such on prohibited days). I mean, the kid was an inherited walk-on that was never going to play meaningful minutes. CCC probably didn't want that hassle and told him he needs to travel with the team and practice with the team. Obviously, Liberman wasn't keen on that, thus the transfer. Of course, people make lawsuits of all kinds these days, so NU probably thought it best to protect itself by having Liberman sign a NDA.

If Liberman wanted to see on-court action, going elsewhere was in his best interest.

An interesting question is what NU had to provide in compensation. Such an agreement is not enforceable unless there is mutual consideration.

I also find this notion of a NDA for a walk on to be disturbing. One last factor, the only place you commonly see NDAs is in the employment arena. Sure, there are exceptions but for a university just out of a NLRB battle, this is nugget is juicy and timely.
 
An interesting question is what NU had to provide in compensation. Such an agreement is not enforceable unless there is mutual consideration.

I also find this notion of a NDA for a walk on to be disturbing. One last factor, the only place you commonly see NDAs is in the employment arena. Sure, there are exceptions but for a university just out of a NLRB battle, this is nugget is juicy and timely.

Anytime you deal with someone's religion, it's a sticky situation.

Of course, in the end, it's much ado about nothing...
 
Anytime you deal with someone's religion, it's a sticky situation.

Of course, in the end, it's much ado about nothing...

That is a presumption. Unless you know something about the NDA or specifics for its occurrence.

Even so, seems a little discriminatory then too.
 
Article on InsideNU about walk-ons. Among other points was a comment about Aaron Liberman not being able to comment on his experience due to a "non-disclosure" agreement between him and NU. Very strange.

http://www.insidenu.com/2016/4/1/11...-aaron-liberman-reggie-hearn-james-montgomery

Yeah, definitely outside the norm. While I gotta imagine there was some frustration from both parties involved, playing time was the primary reason for his departure. Nothing too crazy about that. Seems like NU may have just been extra careful in this case.

SI Feature
 
Yeah, definitely outside the norm. While I gotta imagine there was some frustration from both parties involved, playing time was the primary reason for his departure. Nothing too crazy about that. Seems like NU may have just been extra careful in this case.

SI Feature

After reading that SI article, I'm disappointed we didn't find a spot for him here. I'm curious to see how he develops over his career. Couldn't do any worse than other walk ons in the past and might have been the key to keeping Pardons shirt this past year. Before someone jumps up to defend burning that shirt, remind me of what the team accomplished in burning it. While I wait, I'll go watch a replay of all our post season games...
 
After reading that SI article, I'm disappointed we didn't find a spot for him here. I'm curious to see how he develops over his career. Couldn't do any worse than other walk ons in the past and might have been the key to keeping Pardons shirt this past year. Before someone jumps up to defend burning that shirt, remind me of what the team accomplished in burning it. While I wait, I'll go watch a replay of all our post season games...

I checked Verbal Commits today and he is shown as having left the Tulane team.........
 
I checked Verbal Commits today and he is shown as having left the Tulane team.........


He transferred to Brandeis University where he has access to a much larger community. It is Division III so he did not have to sit out when he transferred.
 
He transferred to Brandeis University where he has access to a much larger community. It is Division III so he did not have to sit out when he transferred.

And he might actually get to play. He was never D1 material. It's crazy that more D1 walk-ons don't realize their chances to play are minimal...
 
And he might actually get to play. He was never D1 material. It's crazy that more D1 walk-ons don't realize their chances to play are minimal...

The thing I don't get, is kids who get admitted to NU on their academic credentials, walk on to BB, find they aren't good enough to play in the Big 10, and then transfer to a lesser school to continue to pursue hoops. Someone should have given them a realistic view on their skill set before they went to University and help them to know their competitive level. Better to start at a school that they can actually compete in hoops if that is their dream than to be frustrated in the walk-on experience at a Power 5 school.
 
Villanova had three senior walk-ones play the last couple of minutes last night. They seemed to be highly regarded by their coaches and teammates.
 
Villanova had three senior walk-ones play the last couple of minutes last night. They seemed to be highly regarded by their coaches and teammates.

They must have been good players. The fact is the large majority of walk-ons in football and basketball suck and have no business playing D1 athletics. Sorry if that pops someone's false hopes. Collins was spot on with his comments about walk-ons.
 
A good friend of mine walked on at Duke back in the 1980s. He played only one season, but graduated from Duke and built a lifetime relationship with Coach K, who still sends him personal handwritten notes and Duke swag every year. Sometimes it's not about playing time but the experience of being a part of something bigger.
 
Villanova had three senior walk-ones play the last couple of minutes last night. They seemed to be highly regarded by their coaches and teammates.

Didn't get a chance to watch, but wasn't Villanova up by 40? Charlie Hall saw the court in a few NU blowouts, so maybe that's the reason?
 
The article makes this point, but the quality of walk-ons won't be great at a highly selective school where tuition just crossed $50,000 a year. Finding a player as good as Hearn was a minor miracle.
 
The article makes this point, but the quality of walk-ons won't be great at a highly selective school where tuition just crossed $50,000 a year. Finding a player as good as Hearn was a minor miracle.

Reggie was one of my all-time favorite players. Tough kid, great motor, and a will to win. Would have loved to see him on a Collins coached team.
 
After reading that SI article, I'm disappointed we didn't find a spot for him here. I'm curious to see how he develops over his career. Couldn't do any worse than other walk ons in the past and might have been the key to keeping Pardons shirt this past year. Before someone jumps up to defend burning that shirt, remind me of what the team accomplished in burning it. While I wait, I'll go watch a replay of all our post season games...

Everyone talks about redshirting a player, but most redshirts never become superstars. Yes, Pardon might be better as a 5th year senior by the time that time rolls around, but with CCC, I'm hoping (and banking) on our ability to recruit someone who will be as good as Pardon the 5th year senior as a frosh. That's what you gotta hope for, and frankly, where will need to be, if our program is to reach the heights that conform with our greatest aspirations. Hopefully, we start getting some kids who can leave early for the League (though I am always supportive that they come back and finish their degree). This is where we need to be. Not talking about 5th year seniors, but rather cycling in talent much faster and at a much higher grade, so we don't have to give anyone a 5th year and can get the scholarship into someone's hands who would never get a 5th year anywhere in the country, much less NU..
 
After reading that SI article, I'm disappointed we didn't find a spot for him here. I'm curious to see how he develops over his career. Couldn't do any worse than other walk ons in the past and might have been the key to keeping Pardons shirt this past year. Before someone jumps up to defend burning that shirt, remind me of what the team accomplished in burning it. While I wait, I'll go watch a replay of all our post season games...
What the team accomplished was giving Demps, Olah and JVZ their best possible chance at a successful senior season. Had Liberman been here and played those minutes in place of Pardon, that would have been an genuine error by Coach Collins on the magnitude of the imaginary errors that you continually harp on.
 
Everyone talks about redshirting a player, but most redshirts never become superstars

Bo Ryan says, "Hey!".

Very few players become superstars period, redshirt or not. It's going to be quite a while (if ever) before Collins/any future NU coach can consistently bring in talent that is capable of leaving college early for the NBA. I agree that redshirting (in basketball) isn't something that should be done all the time, but it can be valuable tool given it's used on the right type of player. Considering NU isn't landing an Anthony Davis type anytime soon, I see no reason to discount the idea.
 
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After reading that SI article, I'm disappointed we didn't find a spot for him here. I'm curious to see how he develops over his career. Couldn't do any worse than other walk ons in the past and might have been the key to keeping Pardons shirt this past year. Before someone jumps up to defend burning that shirt, remind me of what the team accomplished in burning it. While I wait, I'll go watch a replay of all our post season games...
When you cannot practice, travel or play on Sat, what are you going to do? 25% of all games are on SAT and I would guess that many (if not most) Sunday away games would require Sat travel and/or practice meaning he would be unavailable for 30-40% of all games, No matter how good the kid was, that would be a problem. Basically all he could ever be under those circumstances is a practice body.

Not sure how he would have saved Pardon's RS when 2 of the first 4 BIG games were SAT games.
 
What the team accomplished was giving Demps, Olah and JVZ their best possible chance at a successful senior season. Had Liberman been here and played those minutes in place of Pardon, that would have been an genuine error by Coach Collins on the magnitude of the imaginary errors that you continually harp on.

So they wouldn't have been invited to the Vegas 8?

E-cat - I understand your point, but I think you are putting the cart ahead of the horse. We can hope that by DPs departure, we have another center as good as frosh DP - but who knows. The target is shifting from time to time - I thought the real goal was NIT by this past year. Now, looking at the team next year, without cashing in on a bunch of 'if's' and freshmen dreams, we are facing a similar outcome.

There are definitely multiple approaches and your line of thinking is fair, but I would prefer to take the bird in hand and enjoy the two in the bush if they are ever caught. In retrospect, maybe Liberman couldn't have helped and saved DP's shirt. But from the article, from the fact is was a walk on anyway - I would have liked to have seen it. Not a big deal - not at all. Compared to the Vassar screw up and in light of the underwhelming season, this is just one of those things I read and thought about a bit. Besides, not much else to discuss here these days.

For all the b1tching, but for me and willy, the rest of you would have little to read or discuss.

Son, we live in a world that has message boards, and those boards have to be inspired by men with opinions. Who's gonna do it? You? You, VirginiaCat? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for CCC, PF and the coaches, and you curse the willycat. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that their missteps, while tragic, probably drove discussion; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps this forum alive.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on this board -- you need me on this board.

We use words like "post-season," "NCAA," "NIT." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent dreaming of something. You use them as a punch line.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very opportunity that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a opinion and post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!
 
Bo Ryan says, "Hey!".

Very few players become superstars period, redshirt or not. It's going to be quite a while (if ever) before Collins/any future NU coach can consistently bring in talent that is capable of leaving college early for the NBA. I agree that redshirting (in basketball) isn't something that should be done all the time, but it can be valuable tool given it's used on the right type of player. Considering NU isn't landing an Anthony Davis type anytime soon, I see no reason to discount the idea.

Neither am I saying it isn't something we shouldn't use, for the right type of player. However, our fanbase is enamoured with redshirting, both on the football and hoops side, probably because historically, we've only been able to recruit kids that needed 5th years to grow into players that could compete on the court with others. That's no longer the case today, and we should be thankful. But, some fans seem to think we should redshirt everyone because they'll naturally be better as 5th year seniors vs. true frosh, whereas redshirts should be given only to those players who are not ready to see the field/court and who otherwise wouldn't have opportunities to contribute due to depth.

Here's what redshirt years do also:

1. Prevent you from fielding your best team. If a kid can contribute, no way you should redshirt him
2. slow down a kid's development (for those who ARE ready) to allow him contribute faster, because he didn't get game time. I think Pardon would have been even better than he was for the B1G season, had he not sat out during the non-conf
3. wastes a season if a kid gets hurt. Imagine if we had redshirted Vic Law.
4. here's the worst thing - ties up a scholarship for an extra year on a kid who most likely is not worth that 5th year relative to kids you could be bringing in. I like Sanjay and I'm not saying that he's not a contributor, but imagine if he wasn't redshirted (I realize he was injured, but I'm just saying) and we could bring in another kid THIS YEAR. Sure, Sanjay is a contributor, but I'd be willing to gamble that we could get a kid that is going to be better for this program if that scholarship were free. The thing is exactly what you said in the first sentence - very few players become superstars. We should be cycling our scholarships faster to give us more swings at the plate to possibly land that ever evasive superstar. This is exactly why the football powers are always loaded with talent - the SEC especially (and frankly, Harbaugh). They are masters at cycling through scholarships faster than everyone else, though they do it in very shady ways that exploit a kid, throwing them to the curb if they don't pan out, anything to get that scholie free for someone else (we obviously don't do that, or Vassar wouldn't be here still). Even more important in basketball to cycle through where you only have 13 scholarships. That's why no one ever tries to prevent a kid from staying his 5th year (see all the 5th year transfers in hoops). That 5th year isn't that great for most programs, because most programs would rather give that scholarship to someone else. Just like a proven veteran, short of a superstar, in the League is going to always go for less than what you would think in draft picks. Give up a 1st round pick for a guy? Chances are your 1st round pick isn't going to be as certain an outcome as your vet, but you take the 1st round pick, cuz you might just end up with Steph Curry or someone like that. Same with our scholarship that that 5th year guy is holding down.
 
Neither am I saying it isn't something we shouldn't use, for the right type of player. However, our fanbase is enamoured with redshirting, both on the football and hoops side, probably because historically, we've only been able to recruit kids that needed 5th years to grow into players that could compete on the court with others. That's no longer the case today, and we should be thankful. But, some fans seem to think we should redshirt everyone because they'll naturally be better as 5th year seniors vs. true frosh, whereas redshirts should be given only to those players who are not ready to see the field/court and who otherwise wouldn't have opportunities to contribute due to depth.

Here's what redshirt years do also:

1. Prevent you from fielding your best team. If a kid can contribute, no way you should redshirt him
2. slow down a kid's development (for those who ARE ready) to allow him contribute faster, because he didn't get game time. I think Pardon would have been even better than he was for the B1G season, had he not sat out during the non-conf
3. wastes a season if a kid gets hurt. Imagine if we had redshirted Vic Law.
4. here's the worst thing - ties up a scholarship for an extra year on a kid who most likely is not worth that 5th year relative to kids you could be bringing in. I like Sanjay and I'm not saying that he's not a contributor, but imagine if he wasn't redshirted (I realize he was injured, but I'm just saying) and we could bring in another kid THIS YEAR. Sure, Sanjay is a contributor, but I'd be willing to gamble that we could get a kid that is going to be better for this program if that scholarship were free. The thing is exactly what you said in the first sentence - very few players become superstars. We should be cycling our scholarships faster to give us more swings at the plate to possibly land that ever evasive superstar. This is exactly why the football powers are always loaded with talent - the SEC especially (and frankly, Harbaugh). They are masters at cycling through scholarships faster than everyone else, though they do it in very shady ways that exploit a kid, throwing them to the curb if they don't pan out, anything to get that scholie free for someone else (we obviously don't do that, or Vassar wouldn't be here still). Even more important in basketball to cycle through where you only have 13 scholarships. That's why no one ever tries to prevent a kid from staying his 5th year (see all the 5th year transfers in hoops). That 5th year isn't that great for most programs, because most programs would rather give that scholarship to someone else. Just like a proven veteran, short of a superstar, in the League is going to always go for less than what you would think in draft picks. Give up a 1st round pick for a guy? Chances are your 1st round pick isn't going to be as certain an outcome as your vet, but you take the 1st round pick, cuz you might just end up with Steph Curry or someone like that. Same with our scholarship that that 5th year guy is holding down.

There's a lot of good content in here, E.

The only thing I might add is that players are not guaranteed a 5th season. We see this regularly in football. Sometimes an athlete will simply decide to move on from college after graduation if a good opportunity presents itself or injuries have taken their toll. Sometimes an athlete will not asked back by the coaching staff following the completion of their 4th year in the program. Then there is graduate transfer phenomenon. All this to say, it's still possible to cycle through players while still using redshirts.

It would be great to be able to bring in three freshman that can immediately contribute on a regular basis, but I don't think that's a very realistic yearly expectation now that CC has brought in a few well regarded classes in a row (at least not yet). An average incoming freshman class that has an immediate contributor, a role player, plus one redshirt (if the shoe fits) however, seems attainable, especially when you consider the competitive depth Collins is building.
 
There's a lot of good content in here, E.

The only thing I might add is that players are not guaranteed a 5th season. We see this regularly in football. Sometimes an athlete will simply decide to move on from college after graduation if a good opportunity presents itself or injuries have taken their toll. Sometimes an athlete will not asked back by the coaching staff following the completion of their 4th year in the program. Then there is graduate transfer phenomenon. All this to say, it's still possible to cycle through players while still using redshirts.

It would be great to be able to bring in three freshman that can immediately contribute on a regular basis, but I don't think that's a very realistic yearly expectation now that CC has brought in a few well regarded classes in a row (at least not yet). An average incoming freshman class that has an immediate contributor, a role player, plus one redshirt (if the shoe fits) however, seems attainable, especially when you consider the competitive depth Collins is building.

I hear you, and don't disagree. However, going back to the original point of the thread, having Lieberman on the roster would not have helped anything, and suggesting that he would have helped to keep a shirt on Pardon is totally inane. CCC made a mistake to begin with by redshirting Pardon for the 1st half of the year. The kid comes out in his college debut against a B1G team and puts up 28 and 12. Redshirting him violates the principle that you don't redshirt someone who can contribute, much less is the reason why you win a game. Unreal.
 
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CCC made a mistake to begin with by redshirting Pardon for the 1st half of the year.

Disagree. If both Joey and Alex don't get hurt, it was a great strategy. Dererk had one great game but the rest? Meh. And 2017 isn't the tournament year, 2018 is.
 
Disagree. If both Joey and Alex don't get hurt, it was a great strategy. Dererk had one great game but the rest? Meh. And 2017 isn't the tournament year, 2018 is.

I beg to differ. We are dancing in both 2017 and 2018. And when Pardon proves himself to be the answer in the low post, we will have his seasoning in 2016 to thank. And Pardon will be that much better prepared WITHOUT JOEY AND ALEX in 2017 and 2018, because he played this year. He'd be even better had he played the whole year. In any case, redshirting Pardon only hurts us in 2018. If anything, you'd argue you are waiting for 2020. By then, Barrett Benson and others we will have recruited to NU will be ready to take over. Who knows, by 200, and after 3 straight tournament appearances, a B1G title, and a Sweet Sixteen appearance, we may be able to use Pardon's extra scholarship to secure the commitment of a 5 star Parade AA who is gonna tear it up as a frosh.

Again, why wait? We need him to be as good as he's going to be in 2017 and 2018 (where even you say is going to be the year). Not as a 5th year senior in 2020. Redshirting only hurts our chances in 2017 and 2018. I argue that it won't necessarily help us in 2020 even.
 
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I beg to differ. We are dancing in both 2017 and 2018. And when Pardon proves himself to be the answer in the low post, we will have his seasoning in 2016 to thank. And Pardon will be that much better prepared WITHOUT JOEY AND ALEX in 2017 and 2018, because he played this year. He'd be even better had he played the whole year. In any case, redshirting Pardon only hurts us in 2018. If anything, you'd argue you are waiting for 2020. By then, Barrett Benson and others we will have recruited to NU will be ready to take over. Who knows, by 200, and after 3 straight tournament appearances, a B1G title, and a Sweet Sixteen appearance, we may be able to use Pardon's extra scholarship to secure the commitment of a 5 star Parade AA who is gonna tear it up as a frosh.

Again, why wait? We need him to be as good as he's going to be in 2017 and 2018 (where even you say is going to be the year). Not as a 5th year senior in 2020. Redshirting only hurts our chances in 2017 and 2018. I argue that it won't necessarily help us in 2020 even.

Bartender - give me a double of what he's drinking
 
I really believe it. NU will be talented, deep, and experienced. Collins will coach 'em up and the streak will finally end.
Funny, I enjoy just reading you say it. It is going to something great when it happens.
 
After reading that SI article, I'm disappointed we didn't find a spot for him here. I'm curious to see how he develops over his career. Couldn't do any worse than other walk ons in the past and might have been the key to keeping Pardons shirt this past year. Before someone jumps up to defend burning that shirt, remind me of what the team accomplished in burning it. While I wait, I'll go watch a replay of all our post season games...
Yes, if they could have only added Sid Finch too they really would have had something!!
 
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