Liberman

[NJCat]

Yes, if they could have only added Sid Finch too they really would have had something!!

Sid is pitching in Evanston for the worst Big 10 baseball team.....

 

[hdhntr1]

Neither am I saying it isn't something we shouldn't use, for the right type of player. However, our fanbase is enamoured with redshirting, both on the football and hoops side, probably because historically, we've only been able to recruit kids that needed 5th years to grow into players that could compete on the court with others. That's no longer the case today, and we should be thankful. But, some fans seem to think we should redshirt everyone because they'll naturally be better as 5th year seniors vs. true frosh, whereas redshirts should be given only to those players who are not ready to see the field/court and who otherwise wouldn't have opportunities to contribute due to depth.

Here's what redshirt years do also:

1. Prevent you from fielding your best team. If a kid can contribute, no way you should redshirt him
2. slow down a kid's development (for those who ARE ready) to allow him contribute faster, because he didn't get game time. I think Pardon would have been even better than he was for the B1G season, had he not sat out during the non-conf
3. wastes a season if a kid gets hurt. Imagine if we had redshirted Vic Law.
4. here's the worst thing - ties up a scholarship for an extra year on a kid who most likely is not worth that 5th year relative to kids you could be bringing in. I like Sanjay and I'm not saying that he's not a contributor, but imagine if he wasn't redshirted (I realize he was injured, but I'm just saying) and we could bring in another kid THIS YEAR. Sure, Sanjay is a contributor, but I'd be willing to gamble that we could get a kid that is going to be better for this program if that scholarship were free. The thing is exactly what you said in the first sentence - very few players become superstars. We should be cycling our scholarships faster to give us more swings at the plate to possibly land that ever evasive superstar. This is exactly why the football powers are always loaded with talent - the SEC especially (and frankly, Harbaugh). They are masters at cycling through scholarships faster than everyone else, though they do it in very shady ways that exploit a kid, throwing them to the curb if they don't pan out, anything to get that scholie free for someone else (we obviously don't do that, or Vassar wouldn't be here still). Even more important in basketball to cycle through where you only have 13 scholarships. That's why no one ever tries to prevent a kid from staying his 5th year (see all the 5th year transfers in hoops). That 5th year isn't that great for most programs, because most programs would rather give that scholarship to someone else. Just like a proven veteran, short of a superstar, in the League is going to always go for less than what you would think in draft picks. Give up a 1st round pick for a guy? Chances are your 1st round pick isn't going to be as certain an outcome as your vet, but you take the 1st round pick, cuz you might just end up with Steph Curry or someone like that. Same with our scholarship that that 5th year guy is holding down.

If a kids minutes are going to be extrememtly limited because of guys ahead of him and/or he is physically not ready, it pays to RS. This tends to be especially true of bigs as they often have growth spurts and it takes them time to grow into their bodies. DP would have been helped with a RS year. THere is no way that he would not be better as a RS Senior than as a true FROSH. And the time he would get in the preseason next year would overcome much of the advantage of playing just a few minutes this year. Could have spent more time in the weight room and with foot work. But circumstances made it so that he was going to get the minutes so his shirt was burned.

Want good examples? Look at WIS bigs and their development.

 

[hdhntr1]

I beg to differ. We are dancing in both 2017 and 2018. And when Pardon proves himself to be the answer in the low post, we will have his seasoning in 2016 to thank. And Pardon will be that much better prepared WITHOUT JOEY AND ALEX in 2017 and 2018, because he played this year. He'd be even better had he played the whole year. In any case, redshirting Pardon only hurts us in 2018. If anything, you'd argue you are waiting for 2020. By then, Barrett Benson and others we will have recruited to NU will be ready to take over. Who knows, by 200, and after 3 straight tournament appearances, a B1G title, and a Sweet Sixteen appearance, we may be able to use Pardon's extra scholarship to secure the commitment of a 5 star Parade AA who is gonna tear it up as a frosh.

Again, why wait? We need him to be as good as he's going to be in 2017 and 2018 (where even you say is going to be the year). Not as a 5th year senior in 2020. Redshirting only hurts our chances in 2017 and 2018. I argue that it won't necessarily help us in 2020 even.

If both JVZ and AO were healthy this year, DP minutes would have been severly limited and any advatage of those minutes would be quickly overcome in the preseason next year. The only thing that made burning his shirt reasonable was the injuries meaning he was going to get more meaningful minutes and only those additional minutes would help for next year.

That said, with the newer grad transfer rules, we could have lost him as a 5th year senior anyway.

 

[hdhntr1]

I beg to differ. We are dancing in both 2017 and 2018. And when Pardon proves himself to be the answer in the low post, we will have his seasoning in 2016 to thank. And Pardon will be that much better prepared WITHOUT JOEY AND ALEX in 2017 and 2018, because he played this year. He'd be even better had he played the whole year. In any case, redshirting Pardon only hurts us in 2018. If anything, you'd argue you are waiting for 2020. By then, Barrett Benson and others we will have recruited to NU will be ready to take over. Who knows, by 200, and after 3 straight tournament appearances, a B1G title, and a Sweet Sixteen appearance, we may be able to use Pardon's extra scholarship to secure the commitment of a 5 star Parade AA who is gonna tear it up as a frosh.

Again, why wait? We need him to be as good as he's going to be in 2017 and 2018 (where even you say is going to be the year). Not as a 5th year senior in 2020. Redshirting only hurts our chances in 2017 and 2018. I argue that it won't necessarily help us in 2020 even.

Under normal conditions, AO was going to get 25-35 minutes per game and JVZ 5-15. There would have been very limited minutes for Pardon. Burning the sheirt under those circumstances made no sense .Give him 2-5 minuts as a Frosh rather than 25-30 as a RS Senior? And if you want to use his scholarship as a RS Senior, that year is not promissed.

 

[NJCat]

Under normal conditions, AO was going to get 25-35 minutes per game and JVZ 5-15. There would have been very limited minutes for Pardon. Burning the sheirt under those circumstances made no sense .Give him 2-5 minuts as a Frosh rather than 25-30 as a RS Senior? And if you want to use his scholarship as a RS Senior, that year is not promissed.

This debate about Dererk's redshirt is kind of ridiculous. Chris Collins, who has been around basketball all his life, had planned to redshirt the kid until his 2 centers got hurt. Some message board yahoo says this was a bad decision. Now who are you going to side with? Collins or the whack job? The choice is clear......

 

[IGNORE2]

Yes, if they could have only added Sid Finch too they really would have had something!!

Wasn't he some minor league baseball player, supposed to be the next big thing and then blew out his arm or something? Pitcher, I think. Would have made a great Cub - here today, gone April 2, before the season even begins...

Sox are still on track for a 162-0 season. Cubs still think they are.

 

[IGNORE2]

This debate about Dererk's redshirt is kind of ridiculous. Chris Collins, who has been around basketball all his life, had planned to redshirt the kid until his 2 centers got hurt. Some message board yahoo says this was a bad decision. Now who are you going to side with? Collins or the whack job? The choice is clear......

For once, on this board, I'm not the one being targeted Thanks NJ, errrrr, Fitzphile.

 

[willycat]

Wasn't he some minor league baseball player, supposed to be the next big thing and then blew out his arm or something? Pitcher, I think. Would have made a great Cub - here today, gone April 2, before the season even begins...

Sox are still on track for a 162-0 season. Cubs still think they are.

Actually he was a make believe character made famous by SI. Supposedly threw close to 200 mph with both his left and right arms. Sounds about as true as the w sox finishing above 4th place in their division.

 

[IGNORE2]

Wasn't he some minor league baseball player, supposed to be the next big thing and then blew out his arm or something? Pitcher, I think. Would have made a great Cub - here today, gone April 2, before the season even begins...

Sox are still on track for a 162-0 season. Cubs still think they are.

Actually he was a factious character made famous by SI. Supposedly threw close to 200 mph with both his left and right arms. Sounds about as true as the w sox finishing above 4th place in their division.

You mean he was a prank for April Fool's Day - April 1 - created by SI? And actually fooled GMs and real reporters? I would have never known... I have been quietly waiting for a 168 mph pitching Messiah to come and take my Sox to legendary greatness.

Thanks for the help Willy. Now, they say there is some guy named Mr. Google that allegedly knows everything, but often tricks you with bad information. Any idea where I could find him?

 

[willycat]

You mean he was a prank for April Fool's Day - April 1 - created by SI? And actually fooled GMs and real reporters? I would have never known... I have been quietly waiting for a 168 mph pitching Messiah to come and take my Sox to legendary greatness.

Thanks for the help Willy. Now, they say there is some guy named Mr. Google that allegedly knows everything, but often tricks you with bad information. Any idea where I could find him?

Yep. Try looking at old 4/1 editions of SI for Mr. Google.

 

[EvanstonCat]

If a kids minutes are going to be extrememtly limited because of guys ahead of him and/or he is physically not ready, it pays to RS. This tends to be especially true of bigs as they often have growth spurts and it takes them time to grow into their bodies. DP would have been helped with a RS year. THere is no way that he would not be better as a RS Senior than as a true FROSH. And the time he would get in the preseason next year would overcome much of the advantage of playing just a few minutes this year. Could have spent more time in the weight room and with foot work. But circumstances made it so that he was going to get the minutes so his shirt was burned.

Want good examples? Look at WIS bigs and their development.

Would he have been as limited as you say though? By end of season, he was getting more minutes than JvZ (before latter got hurt) and rightfully so. Also, I still think we could have tried him at the 4 at times.

 

[hdhntr1]

This debate about Dererk's redshirt is kind of ridiculous. Chris Collins, who has been around basketball all his life, had planned to redshirt the kid until his 2 centers got hurt. Some message board yahoo says this was a bad decision. Now who are you going to side with? Collins or the whack job? The choice is clear......

I don't disagree. It was planned to rs him and with the guys ahead of him it would have been a waste to burn the shirt because there were very limited minutes to give him. When Olah and JVZ went down, things changes and so did the coaches plan.

 

[hdhntr1]

Would he have been as limited as you say though? By end of season, he was getting more minutes than JvZ (before latter got hurt) and rightfully so. Also, I still think we could have tried him at the 4 at times.

Yes,they would have been limited. JVZ was brought in as a backup for backup minutes to spell Olah. He also offers a different skill set. Only 40 minutes for the position and you expect a healthy Olah to get 25-35 (usually 30 +)minutes. JVZ to get 5-15 minutes so no minutes for DP. That was all changed when Olah went down. It freed up 30 minutes per game when he went down and also minutes after he got back as they limited his play to protect him. Trying to RS him was the proper decision prior to the injuries as was burning his shirt when Olah went down.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Yes,they would have been limited. JVZ was brought in as a backup for backup minutes to spell Olah. He also offers a different skill set. Only 40 minutes for the position and you expect a healthy Olah to get 25-35 (usually 30 +)minutes. JVZ to get 5-15 minutes so no minutes for DP. That was all changed when Olah went down. It freed up 30 minutes per game when he went down and also minutes after he got back as they limited his play to protect him. Trying to RS him was the proper decision prior to the injuries as was burning his shirt when Olah went down.

Yes, that was the plan. However, once Pardon got on the floor, I find it doubtful that his productivity wouldn't have shifted playing time in a big way, just as it did for the short period when all three were available.

Let's agree to disagree. I would have played him if I thought he was going to be as productive as he was. Maybe Collins knew it, perhaps, he did not. In any case, I'm not Collins (and thankfully for NU hoops, I'm not) so it doesn't really matter what I think.

In general, I would still stick with the principles I laid out earlier on why redshirting is often counterproductive and upon what situations it is appropriate. I do believe, though, that Collins probably adheres to those principles, and this was more a matter of judgment on whether he thought Pardon could help us. If he did, I don't think we would have redshirted him.