Mooney week
- Thread starter haywood jahblowme
- Start date
*Facetiously calls your post intelligent*
*Doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're"*
Also, NU played Baylor twice when Sobo was running the point and split with them, so your post sucked that much more
No need to duck.
There were some who had (prematurely) declared BMac to be the best PG to have played at NU after his frosh season - which at the time, disagreed w/ as it was way too early and that taking into account just their frosh seasons, BMac and Juice were pretty close.
Per 40 minutes, Sobo had a career TO rate of 1.9 and and just 1.1 for his last season.
BMac's career TO rate per 40 mins is 3.0 and 3.3 for his SR season (had a higher TO rate for his JR and SR seasons than his first 2).
BMac's D did improve over the years, but it's not like he would take on the lead guard most of the time.
BMac's per 40 min steal rate was 0.7 whereas Sobo's was 1.0 (Sobo also had a slightly higher block rate)..
So, you're saying that Johnny played point-forward? lol
Juice avg'd (per 40 mins) 15.1 ppg and 17.4 ppg his last 2 seasons.
BMac avg'd 17.4 and 15.1 (so basically, flipped).
Career-wise, BMac has a 0.9 lead on scoring.
But Juice was a good bit more efficient - shooting .437 vs. .409, and even more so when it came to beyond the arc (.409 vs. .341).
Same thing applies to eFG% - .543 for Juice and .465 for BMac.
(Shurna's, btw, is .557 - so Juice is right there w/ Johnny.)
BMac had a higher assist rate - 6.4 vs. 4.6, but Juice had the lower TO rate (2.1 vs. 3.0) and higher steal rate (1.4 vs. 0.7).
And during the NIT run in 2011, Juice was right up there w/ Shurna when it came to scoring, and actually shot better than Johnny in the quarterfinal game.
Milwaukee: 20 Juice - 25 Shurna
Boston College: 22 Juice - 20 Shurna
Wash St.: 18 Juice - 8 Shurna
Last edited:
Seems like a toss-up. Juice is under appreciated these days.
^ Well, there's basically one reason for that and would give the nod to Juice due to having a significantly better eFG%.
Have high hopes that Lathon will outdo them all (would be very pleased if Lathon ends up being a taller version of Juice).
Have high hopes that Lathon will outdo them all (would be very pleased if Lathon ends up being a taller version of Juice).
Actually, I think BMac leading the team to the NCAA Tourney would give him the nod.
Plus, those many, many more assists generated a whole lot more points.Actually, I think BMac leading the team to the NCAA Tourney would give him the nod.
This, Only two players in the BIG have ever had more career assists since they began tracking the category. BMac was a special, special player-- zero chance we would have made the Dance without him, zip.
Actually, I think BMac leading the team to the NCAA Tourney would give him the nod.
And I suppose variables such team talent, level of competition, injuries, etc, has no factor...
Marino must not be one of the greatest QBs ever to play in the NFL since he never won a SB; Rodgers must not be one of the most talented QBs (maybe the most talented) to have ever donned the pads in the NFL since he's only won as many SBs as Stabler, Theismann, McMahon, Simms, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco and Nick Foles and 1 less than Jim Plunkett.
As for assists, Juice made up for that by turning the ball over less and stealing the ball more.
In addition, assists stats can be a tricky thing as it depends on the style of play; under the Princeton O, there was more emphasis on the team to make the extra pass.
Last edited:
I was just kinda having some fun with that. I'm a big fan of both guys. But I looked into it and the comparison by the numbers is actually closer than I thought.
BMac averaged 15.5 pts per 40 minutes, Juice 14.6. But Juice was a more efficient scorer, as he shot 44% overall and 41% from 3 compared to BMac's 41% and 34%. Bryant was a better FT shooter (85% to 76%). And while BMac certainly had the big advantage in total assists (700 to 528), their assist-to-TO ratios were about equal (2.2 exactly for Juice, 2.14 for BMac). Juice also had 159 steals to BMac's 78, but Juice was often in a prime spot for steals in the 1-3-1.
According to basketball reference, Mac played a little harder schedule over his 4 years and had a better defensive rating (106.7 vs. 110). Mac of course will always have the NCAA appearance.
And yes, Juice didn't have to be quite as high volume because of Shurna, but he had a higher offensive efficiency rating than Shurna all 3 years they played together. KenPom has Juice as a top-200 offensive player in the nation in both his junior and senior years (115.9 and 115.4). KenPom goes back to '01-02 and the only guys with more efficient offensive seasons for us (of guys who played starter minutes) are Shurna (116.5 in '11-12), Lumpkin (a ridiculous 125.4 in '16-17, guess he should've shot it more), and Pardon twice (120.1 in '16-17 and 119.8 in '17-18).
That's not to disparage BMac, who definitely has pro hoops in his future. I'm just appreciating that Juice was a pretty good college player, especially for a 5-10 dude. And he's still doing well for himself in Europe.
Sure it does. BMac had a slightly tougher schedule. He was also required to create (generate offense) much more than Juice was. As for team talent, Juice had Shurna (who is arguably one of the greatest to wear an NU uniform).
You really need a constructive hobby. Ignore.
Some day, just once, I'd like to go to the track and throw down bets for a couple hours with the same success as Doug Williams had in that Super Bowl. He never played like that before or after.
There is more salt in this thread than in 3 of the 4 oceans.
Need another 1-2 pages worth of sniping before we can equal the Pacific though I think.
Depends on who was in his spot. On that team, you are right, we would not have made it without him. But had Juice been PG with the rest of that team, good chance we would have made it with him rather than BMac
Well, actually, there is only one ocean. And, modernly, there are five recognized ocean basins:
"Historically, there are four named oceans: the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, and Arctic. However, most countries - including the United States - now recognize the Southern (Antarctic) as the fifth ocean. The Pacific, Atlantic, and Indian are known as the three major oceans."
I find it sad but quite typical of this place that no one acknowledged or disputed the validity of my point, yet 2 people replied to attempt to tangentially nitpick my reference on oceans, a distinction which I really could care less about but maybe made you and Fitzphile feel smarter.
I guess that development is less salty than the openly fired barbs that have been going back and forth for the majority of the thread, so maybe it qualifies as an improvement!
It's actually "couldn't care less".
But he did other things that were as important. There were a lot of things that made the dance team work. Ash or Brown could not have taken BMacs place but Juice, quite possibly.
Juice had a different skill set. That team thrived on BMac’s playmaking and ability to set up teammates. Plus, his FT% was unreal, which comes in extremely handy in close games (of which we had more than a few that season).
The Southern Ocean? WTF? When did that happen? Is that something Obama did? Like renaming Mt. McKinley and Mt. Rushmore?
The Southern Ocean is the 'newest' named ocean. It is recognized by the U.S. Board on Geographic Names as the body of water extending from the coast of Antarctica to the line of latitude at 60 degrees South. The boundaries of this ocean were proposed to the International Hydrographic Organization in 2000.
So it's Slick Bill that snuck in a new ocean basin.
That would be Slick Willy not Slick Bill.
Well, I refuse to recognize it. The South is always trying to secede or decide its a separate country or ocean or whatever.
So after all this time arguing that CC is the better recruiter (which he is) and the 2014 class being the best class (up to that point), in addition to Pardon being the best NU center since Esch, you're coming back w/ the Shurna argument? lol
During Juice's SR season, the 'Cats played dOSU without Shurna who was injured.
dOSU was ranked #1 in the nation at the time and finished that season w/ a 34-3 record (losing to Kentucky in the NCAAs by a basket).
Juice nearly led the 'Cats sans Shurna to an upset (losing by a single point) - leading the 'Cats w/ 16 pts and 8 assists.
Juice had a 2nd year Crawford, a frosh Cobb, Mirkovic, Capocci, Curletti and Marcotullio as his help.
Sub Mirkovic w/ Pardon and the 'Cats win that game; heck, sub Mirkovic w/ Lumpkin and think the 'Cats win that game.
Later during the season, during the B1G Tourney, the 'Cats lost to dOSU in OT.
That was the diff. btwn the NIT and a Tourney bid (this was also the season that Shurna had that high ankle sprain injury).
Well, BMac had more teammates for whom to set up and too many under-appreciate efficiency and Juice's eFG% blows away BMac's.
So let me ask you this - if BMac was that much better than Juice (and had a more talented team around him), then why did the 'Cats w/ BMac at the helm only go to the post-season once out of 4 years?
Not asking for the NCAAs again, but can't even make the NIT once?
BMac actually had his best eFG% during his FR and SO seasons.
And as this article points out, it was the D, not the O that was the difference btwn being a Tournament team and not even making the NIT.
https://dailynorthwestern.com/2018/...mbers-nus-mens-basketballs-disastrous-season/
Even to this day, there are those who have poo poo'd Sanjay's importance to the 2016-17 team.
Another thing, while BMac was the floor general - the overall team leadership was lacking last season w/ certain player being lackadaisical, out of shape and/or playing selfishly.
Last edited:
Using a single game to make a claim lacks...um...substance. I could offer all kinds of games where BMac singlehandedly won games for us offensively. I prefer to look at overall numbers (you know, more career PPG and APG) and the round of 32 in the NCAAs (and an unforgettable game against Gonzaga in a lot of ways).
But if crapping on BMac makes you feel better...have at it! For some reason, I have a feeling this all boils down to your boy Carmody again, but we can all agree that issue has already been decided.
Katatonic, a few things on your post. This is probably ground that's been covered, but I'll do it anyway...
First, related to Juice, toss out the data. Juice was a bad ass, tough as nails. That set a tone that I'd argue, the team was not always able to follow (that MSG game when Shurna got shoved and his teammates wilted). He is a winner.
They are such different players that I don't know a comparison is fair. Both are winners. I do think BMac was a finished product by the end of his sophomore year. He put in the work to improve, worked on his shot, but at a certain age, you can't make some things better.
I don't know that he was less tough than Juice, he certainly played w injuries and in a lot of pain. And I don't put the leadership issues w last years team at his feet. There were three seniors who were obligated to show leadership and the only one I'm sure about is B Mac. Some players get lost in themselves and that may have happened with a couple players.
You mentioned Jershon Cobb. He was exceptional when he was healthy, which was rare. Going into his senior year he was projected as a second round pick. Really an elite recruit whose body failed him.
I am still president of the Sanjay Lumpkin fan club (and several of you are in arrears). He was lambasted through the end of his junior season on this board by some. The criticism only quieted because the team won and went to the tournament. My thesis is that players are primarily judged on one side of the court...offense. Sanjay was an elite defensive player who was only "undersized" because he was a better option for NU to guard the 4 than bigger teammates. He did everything. And he led through actions more than words.
I also think that Sanjay and other players dedicated to a team can at times sacrifice their offensive development because they work so hard on defense. He could shoot in high school from distance. He worked on this shot, but his college focus was on those areas that NU needed him most. Some NU fans, I'm sorry to say, never fully appreciated what he did. Collins knew what he had from about five seconds of tape.
First, related to Juice, toss out the data. Juice was a bad ass, tough as nails. That set a tone that I'd argue, the team was not always able to follow (that MSG game when Shurna got shoved and his teammates wilted). He is a winner.
They are such different players that I don't know a comparison is fair. Both are winners. I do think BMac was a finished product by the end of his sophomore year. He put in the work to improve, worked on his shot, but at a certain age, you can't make some things better.
I don't know that he was less tough than Juice, he certainly played w injuries and in a lot of pain. And I don't put the leadership issues w last years team at his feet. There were three seniors who were obligated to show leadership and the only one I'm sure about is B Mac. Some players get lost in themselves and that may have happened with a couple players.
You mentioned Jershon Cobb. He was exceptional when he was healthy, which was rare. Going into his senior year he was projected as a second round pick. Really an elite recruit whose body failed him.
I am still president of the Sanjay Lumpkin fan club (and several of you are in arrears). He was lambasted through the end of his junior season on this board by some. The criticism only quieted because the team won and went to the tournament. My thesis is that players are primarily judged on one side of the court...offense. Sanjay was an elite defensive player who was only "undersized" because he was a better option for NU to guard the 4 than bigger teammates. He did everything. And he led through actions more than words.
I also think that Sanjay and other players dedicated to a team can at times sacrifice their offensive development because they work so hard on defense. He could shoot in high school from distance. He worked on this shot, but his college focus was on those areas that NU needed him most. Some NU fans, I'm sorry to say, never fully appreciated what he did. Collins knew what he had from about five seconds of tape.
Guilty as charged. I think last year proved that.
I thought the defense would be 4 points worse, but I think it was even more
Last edited:
Hardly crapping on BMac, but the facts are facts.
Seem to recall numerous games where BMac turned the ball over late, or games where the shot clock was wounding down and BMac would take too much time off the clock, resulting in a hurried pass (upon driving to the basket) and an even more hurried shot put up from whomever got that pass (not that diff. from what we saw from Demps).
Sure, BMac had many big scoring games - so did Juice.
Last 2 seasons
Total games scoring 18+ pts.
Juice
2010-11
13 gms
high - 35 pts (Shurna had 2 pts)
2009-10
9 gms
high - 25 pts (against non-conf, 31 pts against Tenn St.; won 62-69)
BMac
2017-18
8 gms
high - 24 pts
2016-17
14 gms
high - 25 pts
PPG and APG, on its own, can be misleading.
There are players who score a lot of points, but take a lot of shots doing it and are inefficient.
Already established that Juice was a good bit more efficient scorer than BMac.
And while BMac avg'd a couple more assists than Juice per game, somehow, it was Juice-led NU teams that were more efficient.
Efficiency ranking
2010-11 -- 22nd (1.094)
2009-10 -- 54th (1.058)
2008-09 - 103rd (1.023)
2017-18 -- 173rd (1.018)
2016-17 -- 122nd (1.036)
2015-16 -- 68th (1.069)
NU's efficiency on O improved w/ Juice, and regressed w/ BMac.
For all your talk about BMac having to create/generate O, the O generated by Juice was superior/more efficient.
Leave it you to take a debate (not much of one on your part) about 2 NU PGs to bring BC into the picture (aside from such a tactic being a sign of grasping at straws, geeze, talk about obsessing).
Putting aside the fact that I have stated (numerous times) that I prefer CC's style of play and think that CC will take the program to greater heights (mainly thru recruiting), the notion that this is about BC (simply b/c I think a BC recruited PG is better than a CC recruited one) is asinine.
First off, already stated, that think Lathon will be better than both Juice and BMac and wasn't Lathon recruited by CC?
And also stated (numerous times) previously that Pardon is the best NU center since Esch (so better than any BC recruited 5 and that's by a good mile).
You really need to get over your obsession w/ BC.
Have to keep in mind that BMac was basically a year older than most of his classmates.
No doubt BMac was tough and played w/ passion.
As for the leadership thing, don't think it's unreasonable for him to shoulder some of the blame.
1st off, BMac was the PG and hence, floor general of the team, so just by his position, he was a leader (even when he was a frosh, just like Juice, etc. - even if he had to earn his striped w/ the upperclassmen).
2nd, part of being the leader is not just being the leader of the guys in classes below, but the leader of guys in same class (or even guys classes above).
Some of that - once again, is by virtue of the position BMac played.
But some of that is just being a leader (doesn't matter if the others are in the same class, much less older) and as noted, BMac was older than his classmates.
Another thing - while BMac was certainly the leader on O, don't exactly think he was the leader on D (that was Lumpkin).
W/o Sanjay, the D became undisciplined, missed assignments, didn't switch, etc.
Some of that was due to laziness, not caring enough, mentally checking out, etc. - but somehow, don't think that would have happened under Sanjay's watch.
Make that Co-President.
As I have stated before, while CC talks fondly about BMac, he absolutely gushes when it came to Sanjay.
At the time, thought it was ridiculous when there were those who thought Lumpkin would only see 10-12 mins of playing time during the off-season before the 2016-17 season.
Efficiency rankings for the season leading to the NCAAs.
D - 42nd
O - 122nd
There are still those who don't give Sanjay enough credit and think that the team would have still made the Tourney w/o him.
Last edited:
Two summers ago one early morning the team invaded my solitary workout to do a piece of their conditioning so I was witness to the group dynamic. I made a couple posts at the time. BMac was the most impressive with his quiet, unmatched drive. And Sanjay was right there. Sanjay was the authority, the standard for excellence for the others, one rising junior in particular.
We aren't inside the locker room so we don't know what went wrong last year. I do think it's obvious that with some, commitment level declined. I also agree that there were issues with B Mac's leadership. From my perspective, that wasn't a B Mac issue, though. That was about some who were uncomfortable with how much attention he got.
Team chemistry is a delicate thing. NU had good, but not great chemistry last year. Truth is, no one on last year's team was so talented and so productive that they had cause to be disappointed with the attention they received. I think B Mac was befuddled by the whole thing...he couldn't believe it was happening.
I think the only way that B Mac could have fixed it was to go out and score 20 each and every game, and get 8 assists to 3 turnovers. It's tough for a senior to straighten out that type of issue with another senior.
