ADVERTISEMENT

Must Read article in The Athletic

If this is the article you are referencing in today’s Athletic, it’s pretty damning of the culture that existed in the locker room at Camp Kenosha.

How a hazing culture evolved at Northwestern’s Camp Kenosha: ‘There’s a significance to ritual’​


Kalyn Kahler and Brian Hamilton
Jul 20, 2023
2

A subscription is needed to access it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gladeskat and RhabdoWildcat
fcmchi said:
If this is the article you are referencing in today’s Athletic, it’s pretty damning of the culture that existed in the locker room at Camp Kenosha.

How a hazing culture evolved at Northwestern’s Camp Kenosha: ‘There’s a significance to ritual’​


Kalyn Kahler and Brian Hamilton
Jul 20, 2023
2

A subscription is needed to access it.
Click to expand...
Thanks for reading and sharing your opinion. Suffice it to say, I see it differently as it confirms my understanding of the type of behaviors that transpired, how these behaviors were long standing, player driven team initiation type rituals that take place in every college football locker room in the country, and most importantly that players who did not want to participate had options at their disposal to not participate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eurocat
Per the article, it seems that those traditions, activities, behaviors did not exist under Barnett but developed during Walker’s tenure and continued during Fitz’s.

That progression, if true, is thought provoking, especially because as we sadly remember and the article pointed out, a player died during off-season practice allegedly due to Walker’s tactics along with the lack of sufficient health care at those practices.

A must read article for all NU fans.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: drewjin
corbi296 said:
Thanks for reading and sharing your opinion. Suffice it to say, I see it differently as it confirms my understanding of the type of behaviors that transpired, how these behaviors were long standing, player driven team initiation type rituals that take place in every college football locker room in the country, and most importantly that players who did not want to participate had options at their disposal to not participate.
Click to expand...
I agree with you to a degree, but not completely. From my perspective after reading the article, this was a case of locker room shenanigans that slowly got worse and worse and eventually crossed a line. It's the classic "boys will be boys" that went too far.

Do I think things like this (not these rituals exactly, but things in this realm) happen in some other college locker rooms? Absolutely. Do I think they happen in all locker rooms? No, I don't. I have no idea what that percentage is, but I feel pretty confident this type of stuff is happening in several other locker rooms too.

But just because they happen in some locker rooms, doesn't make it okay. It shouldn't have been going on. That's the most important point. And if there's any positive that comes out of this, I believe this will clean a lot of this crap up across the entire amateur sports landscape. A lot of these schools that have similar types of things going on will clean it up. And that's the good part. The unfortunate part for us NU fans is that we became the example and aren't one of the schools that will clean it up without any bad press. It is what it is. At the end of the day, the most important thing is that crap like this doesn't happen anymore. Cause it ain't right.

I have said from the start and continue to believe from everything I've read that Fitz knew at least to some degree that some of this stuff was going on. Again though, TO A DEGREE. He, like many coaches, believes that "the locker room is the player's space" and trusted through the structure that he set up with the leadership council and 1:1 end-of-year meetings with all players that he would hear about anything that was a problem. I believe he didn't know it had gotten this bad. That doesn't excuse him, but he put too much faith in the structure he set up and it bit him in the ass in the end.
 
  • Like
Reactions: drewjin, SDakaGordie and SmellyCat
Jonny2TheP said:
I agree with you to a degree, but not completely. From my perspective after reading the article, this was a case of locker room shenanigans that slowly got worse and worse and eventually crossed a line. It's the classic "boys will be boys" that went too far.

Do I think things like this (not these rituals exactly, but things in this realm) happen in some other college locker rooms? Absolutely. Do I think they happen in all locker rooms? No, I don't. I have no idea what that percentage is, but I feel pretty confident this type of stuff is happening in several other locker rooms too.

But just because they happen in some locker rooms, doesn't make it okay. It shouldn't have been going on. That's the most important point. And if there's any positive that comes out of this, I believe this will clean a lot of this crap up across the entire amateur sports landscape. A lot of these schools that have similar types of things going on will clean it up. And that's the good part. The unfortunate part for us NU fans is that we became the example and aren't one of the schools that will clean it up without any bad press. It is what it is. At the end of the day, the most important thing is that crap like this doesn't happen anymore. Cause it ain't right.

I have said from the start and continue to believe from everything I've read that Fitz knew at least to some degree that some of this stuff was going on. Again though, TO A DEGREE. He, like many coaches, believes that "the locker room is the player's space" and trusted through the structure that he set up with the leadership council and 1:1 end-of-year meetings with all players that he would hear about anything that was a problem. I believe he didn't know it had gotten this bad. That doesn't excuse him, but he put too much faith in the structure he set up and it bit him in the ass in the end.
Click to expand...
Look, I don’t really disagree with you but there is a part of me that looks at this and feels that this is a part of college football that has been going on for a long time and pretty much everybody knows it. If you don’t want to be part of it, just don’t play just like people don’t join the military or frats to avoid this very issue. The other part of this article that struck me is that players from the past who didn’t want to be part of these practices found pragmatic ways to avoid them without having a psychological breakdown. One guy just didn’t shower when these rituals were going on and others made it clearly known they wanted no part of it and would physically defend themselves if anybody tried to force it on them. What is it about some of the young people we are producing today that renders them incapable to deal with adversity in such practical ways? Avoid the situation or stand up for yourself and eventually the bullies will leave you alone. I struggle to believe that young, physically fit young men who have been the alpha males on campus their whole lives have such little resiliency and self esteem to deal with these type of issues on their own in the locker room.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CoralSpringsCat and Eurocat
corbi296 said:
Look, I don’t really disagree with you but there is a part of me that looks at this and feels that this is a part of college football that has been going on for a long time and pretty much everybody knows it. If you don’t want to be part of it, just don’t play just like people don’t join the military or frats to avoid this very issue. The other part of this article that struck me is that players from the past who didn’t want to be part of these practices found pragmatic ways to avoid them without having a psychological breakdown. One guy just didn’t shower when these rituals were going on and others made it clearly known they wanted no part of it and would physically defend themselves if anybody tried to force it on them. What is it about some of the young people we are producing today that renders them incapable to deal with adversity in such practical ways? Avoid the situation or stand up for yourself and eventually the bullies will leave you alone. I struggle to believe that young, physically fit young men who have been the alpha males on campus their whole lives have such little resiliency and self esteem to deal with these type of issues on their own in the locker room.
Click to expand...
I've wrestled with the tension here a lot over the past couple of weeks. Tradition does not make a practice right, but tradition is also an important element of strong institutions. I appreciate both of your perspectives on this. I'd definitely prefer a solution that allows a little from group A, and a little from group B, rather than the polarizing all-or-nothing approach that often seems to be presented. I guess this is no age for nuance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ricko654321, drewjin, WaveJumper and 2 others
corbi296 said:
Look, I don’t really disagree with you but there is a part of me that looks at this and feels that this is a part of college football that has been going on for a long time and pretty much everybody knows it. If you don’t want to be part of it, just don’t play just like people don’t join the military or frats to avoid this very issue. The other part of this article that struck me is that players from the past who didn’t want to be part of these practices found pragmatic ways to avoid them without having a psychological breakdown. One guy just didn’t shower when these rituals were going on and others made it clearly known they wanted no part of it and would physically defend themselves if anybody tried to force it on them. What is it about some of the young people we are producing today that renders them incapable to deal with adversity in such practical ways? Avoid the situation or stand up for yourself and eventually the bullies will leave you alone. I struggle to believe that young, physically fit young men who have been the alpha males on campus their whole lives have such little resiliency and self esteem to deal with these type of issues on their own in the locker room.
Click to expand...
Just because most people are okay with it and some of the rest that aren't okay with it found ways to deal with it on their own, doesn't make it right. I think "if you don't want to be part of it, just don't play" is kind of ridiculous, man. So someone loves football and has a great skill for it, but because they don't want to be part of a toxic locker room culture, they just shouldn't play? Come on.

And I understand your point about young people today struggling to deal with adversity. I have similar thoughts on that. I am 100% in on inclusion and respecting people's beliefs and rights, But like anything, even things that are great and I believe in can have negative impacts in certain ways. The world isn't perfect and crap happens. And it happens often. We can't just cry about it every time and make a huge deal out of it. Sometimes you have to deal with it and get past it. That said, I don't think this is one of those situations. Do I think this story has been blown out of proportion and taken on a life of it's own? Yes. But it's still something that was going on that shouldn't have and needed to be cleaned up. I don't think this is a "hey, this happens in football locker rooms, deal with it" situation. Just because it has always happened doesn't make it okay. It's something that needed to be addressed and I am glad it is being addressed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ricko654321, drewjin, Gladeskat and 3 others
Jonny2TheP said:
Just because most people are okay with it and some of the rest that aren't okay with it found ways to deal with it on their own, doesn't make it right. I think "if you don't want to be part of it, just don't play" is kind of ridiculous, man. So someone loves football and has a great skill for it, but because they don't want to be part of a toxic locker room culture, they just shouldn't play? Come on.

And I understand your point about young people today struggling to deal with adversity. I have similar thoughts on that. I am 100% in on inclusion and respecting people's beliefs and rights, But like anything, even things that are great and I believe in can have negative impacts in certain ways. The world isn't perfect and crap happens. And it happens often. We can't just cry about it every time and make a huge deal out of it. Sometimes you have to deal with it and get past it. That said, I don't think this is one of those situations. Do I think this story has been blown out of proportion and taken on a life of it's own? Yes. But it's still something that was going on that shouldn't have and needed to be cleaned up. I don't think this is a "hey, this happens in football locker rooms, deal with it" situation. Just because it has always happened doesn't make it okay. It's something that needed to be addressed and I am glad it is being addressed.
Click to expand...
It’s a fine line, not a black and white issue as some have made it out to be and I can respect that objective people will reach different conclusions on this.

Regarding the point of not playing or playing somewhere else, I think you are being too dismissive of that aspect of this. In my opinion there are some similarities between this and arguments recently litigated in court over whether private businesses can be compelled to do work for LGBTQ events that are in conflict with their personal beliefs. While the liberal in me sees the point about discriminatory practices, the pragmatist in me says if the bigot doesn’t want to do work for you then just go hire someone else down the street who isn’t a bigot. At some point we have to accept that there are bigots as well as prick bullies in the world and the best way to deal with them is to just avoid them. No law or lawsuit is ever going to eradicate those flawed human traits.

I think this hazing stuff is crap and I would never treat anybody else in that way but I also accept there are pricks in the world that do these type of things and the best way to deal with them is to either avoid them or stand up to them like many NU players in the past successfully did. Somehow, some kids these days are just incapable of dealing with these things in a practical way.
 
I read the article that NU had institutionalised hazing going back decades, it recently got worse and even more unacceptable by modern standards, Fitz most likely knew about it, and probably looked the other way because he personally believed it wasn't really "hazing" even though it meets every definition in the book.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dugan15, JournCat, WestCoastWildcat and 5 others
corbi296 said:
Look, I don’t really disagree with you but there is a part of me that looks at this and feels that this is a part of college football that has been going on for a long time and pretty much everybody knows it. If you don’t want to be part of it, just don’t play just like people don’t join the military or frats to avoid this very issue. The other part of this article that struck me is that players from the past who didn’t want to be part of these practices found pragmatic ways to avoid them without having a psychological breakdown. One guy just didn’t shower when these rituals were going on and others made it clearly known they wanted no part of it and would physically defend themselves if anybody tried to force it on them. What is it about some of the young people we are producing today that renders them incapable to deal with adversity in such practical ways? Avoid the situation or stand up for yourself and eventually the bullies will leave you alone. I struggle to believe that young, physically fit young men who have been the alpha males on campus their whole lives have such little resiliency and self esteem to deal with these type of issues on their own in the locker room.
Click to expand...

Sheesh, what a stupid post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Macadochis, PlayStrongPlayProud, Vassar69 and 8 others
CappyNU said:
He changed his last name at some point, but yes, he was a player. I knew him while I was at NU.
Click to expand...

The article says he used to go by Rico Tarver.

Googling revealed he now runs a marijuana business.
 
corbi296 said:
Hi Glades! Nice to hear from you as well.
Click to expand...

It's been fun.

Keep stereotyping people and normalizing horrible behavior with idiotic posts, please. Then maybe these snowflakes will realize they're not human beings worthy of any modicum of respect if their dream is playing football and getting an education.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NUCats, JournCat, CatManTrue and 3 others
corbi296 said:
Thanks for reading and sharing your opinion. Suffice it to say, I see it differently as it confirms my understanding of the type of behaviors that transpired, how these behaviors were long standing, player driven team initiation type rituals that take place in every college football locker room in the country, and most importantly that players who did not want to participate had options at their disposal to not participate.
Click to expand...
Says a lot that you would read this and think it's exculpatory towards Fitz. Hey corbi, keep on denigrating our student athletes. Sorry they're not as manly as you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dugan15, NUCats, Vassar69 and 2 others
It would be hard for me personally to want to play a team sport with anyone who wanted to humiliate their teammates sexually or who would allow themselves to be humiliated in such a manner without resisting. I'm not a physically imposing person, but anyone who would do something like that to me had better watch their back from that time on.

Whatever your viewpoint, this whole thing is an 'effing disaster for a respected university and has probably killed my future support for D1 sports.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: drewjin
Reading the article makes it seem pretty clear that this was a case of the frog slowly boiling in water. Things evolved year over year; what started off as more harmless fun became more malicious over the years where some people would define it as hazing/bullying, and some wouldn't; to the point where it became more about power dynamics and the conduct reached more egregious levels; until it hit a breaking point.

It's not 40, or 30, or 20 or even 10 years ago. Fraternity hazing was being severely curtailed 20 years ago when I was at NU, so the fact that it's continued on the football team and gotten worse seems to be a pretty big problem, and can't/shouldn't be compared to things that went on in the past.
 
  • Like
  • Sad
Reactions: drewjin, NUCats, Catreporter and 6 others
peatymeanis said:
Says a lot that you would read this and think it's exculpatory towards Fitz. Hey corbi, keep on denigrating our student athletes. Sorry they're not as manly as you.
Click to expand...
Where did I say this was exculpatory towards FItz? I’ve consistently said from the start that it was very disappointing to hear that this was going on under Fitz’s watch. The issue is not as black and white as you and many others with a preexisting dislike for FItz want to make it. There is plenty of of blame to go around.
 
corbi296 said:
Where did I say this was exculpatory towards FItz? I’ve consistently said from the start that it was very disappointing to hear that this was going on under Fitz’s watch. The issue is not as black and white as you and many others with a preexisting dislike for FItz want to make it. There is plenty of of blame to go around.
Click to expand...
Blame to go around, meaning blame to the kids who got hazed? No amount of victim blaming can conjure up the gray area that you're trying to wish into existence. Fitz was the custodian of a toxic team culture that had gotten out of control. At best, he willfully turned a blind eye to the existence of the toxicity and its increasing extremism. Warren Long's willingness to come out in public and put his name behind his claims should have been the end of the gray area arguments. Here's a guy who was a multi year contributor, high character kid, selfless, widely praised on this board during his time on the team. He comes public and we've got you corbi turning around and effectively calling him a pussy because he apparently wasn't strong enough to withstand the pressures of succumbing to hazing rituals. Real pathetic, corbi, but par for the course.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NUCats, Colonel Kong, KappaKat and 4 others
corbi296 said:
Thanks for reading and sharing your opinion. Suffice it to say, I see it differently as it confirms my understanding of the type of behaviors that transpired, how these behaviors were long standing, player driven team initiation type rituals that take place in every college football locker room in the country, and most importantly that players who did not want to participate had options at their disposal to not participate.
Click to expand...

Then where WAS I then during the '74, '75, '76, and even '77 seasons?

There's a difference between locker room lewdness and doing anything to make a non-participant uncomfortable or, in any way, feel coerced to participate.

I saw what I'd consider to be hazing activity only in the dorms of a small, selective, evangelical Christian college. Never at NU. The only abusive behavior I ever saw at NU came from NU fans.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: drewjin, NUCats, Colonel Kong and 4 others
peatymeanis said:
Says a lot that you would read this and think it's exculpatory towards Fitz. Hey corbi, keep on denigrating our student athletes. Sorry they're not as manly as you.
Click to expand...
Oh come on Corbi isn’t even the worst of them. Seems like he/she at least somewhat has an open mind.

Look at Coralspringcats posts. You’d think he’s Fitz himself with all the defending and demonization of the victims.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: IGNORE2
Gladeskat said:
Then where WAS I then during the '74, '75, '76, and even '77 seasons?

There's a difference between locker room lewdness and doing anything to make a non-participant uncomfortable or, in any way, feel coerced to participate.

I saw what I'd consider to be hazing activity only in the dorms of a small, selective, evangelical Christian college. Never at NU. The only abusive behavior I ever saw at NU came from NU fans.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I played three sports (including football) through high school and one at NU (in the 70's-80's, not football). I had multiple friends in other sports at NU and never saw or heard of anything like this pea brained neanderthal crap. And saying this type of stuff goes on in "every college football locker room in the country" is fatuous nonsense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IGNORE2
RhabdoWildcat said:
Oh come on Corbi isn’t even the worst of them. Seems like he/she at least somewhat has an open mind.

Look at Coralspringcats posts. You’d think he’s Fitz himself with all the defending and demonization of the victims.
Click to expand...
Both are pretty outrageous and hopefully offer insight to the various things they have pushed over the years.
 
Colonel Kong said:
Absolutely. I played three sports (including football) through high school and one at NU (in the 70's-80's, not football). I had multiple friends in other sports at NU and never saw or heard of anything like this pea brained neanderthal crap. And saying this type of stuff goes on in "every college football locker room in the country" is fatuous nonsense.
Click to expand...
We had a couple of things - and that runs across S&D at two D1 schools and a varsity rugby program (sport is notorious and we didn’t come close to this stuff)…plus one of the frats that called home to athletes at NU… our hell night seems like it was pussies r us and we had three FB guys among the pledge class.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Colonel Kong
I feel like the article was directionally correct and made a lot of valid points and connections. But I'm not sold on lumping Wheelers' death with everything else going on. I followed it closely, and that tragedy was a separate set of circumstances, with one of the contributing factors (perhaps the main factor) potentially being Wheeler's use of a specific supplement that was causing long-term damage.

Also, the reporter deceptively references a story about Walker's visit to the locker room and registering disgust. The original quote from Walker referred to his disgust at how players were littering and leaving balls of used tape on the floor.

It was certainly true that at least early in Walker's tenure, the coaches were brutal on the players. I heard it from a player during the Barnett years who watched a couple of practices. He followed it up with, "And they needed to be."
 
  • Like
Reactions: ricko654321
  • Like
Reactions: IGNORE2 and GrandRapidsCatFan
The article actually made me feel slightly better about the whole situation and more secure in my view that Fitz shouldn't have been fired. Based on my reading (on mobile), most of the player cited seemed to think that what had happened in the past wasn't hazing. And it painted a picture where players weren't forced to participate if they didn't want to. And still didn't offer evidence that Fitz new about the situation; nor has any names of assistant coaches or players yet been named.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ashley0623, corbi296, CoralSpringsCat and 1 other person
BleedingPurple15 said:
The article actually made me feel slightly better about the whole situation and more secure in my view that Fitz shouldn't have been fired. Based on my reading (on mobile), most of the player cited seemed to think that what had happened in the past wasn't hazing. And it painted a picture where players weren't forced to participate if they didn't want to. And still didn't offer evidence that Fitz new about the situation; nor has any names of assistant coaches or players yet been named.
Click to expand...
You should listen to the @westlotpirates podcast where they interview the author. More details are revealed which are quite damning.
 
peatymeanis said:
Warren Long's willingness to come out in public and put his name behind his claims should have been the end of the gray area arguments. Here's a guy who was a multi year contributor, high character kid, selfless, widely praised on this board during his time on the team
Click to expand...
Maybe not so high character as we thought.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CoralSpringsCat
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

phatcat

"Returning production" article

Replies
12
Views
682
FloridAlum Memorial Football Board
phatcat
phatcat
E

Football injuries (and some not related). Article about former NFL QB Jim Kelly in the Athletic

Replies
0
Views
138
FloridAlum Memorial Football Board
Eurocat
E
fcmchi

National Publicity

Replies
0
Views
257
FloridAlum Memorial Football Board
fcmchi
fcmchi
Alaskawildkat
  • Locked

The Daily Northwestern weighs in on the Bowl Selection

Replies
37
Views
1K
FloridAlum Memorial Football Board
CappyNU
C
lou v

The Athletic story on hazing at NU

Replies
41
Views
1K
The Rock
Gladeskat
Gladeskat
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT
Top Bottom
Back