My thoughts on NU retaining Chris Collins

[GatoLouco]

It's athleticism + skill. That's the combination you need and its one NU has never quite gotten right. We've had skilled guys before - I'd put Young in this category. But they lack athleticism. We've had athletic guys before - including several on this current team. But they lack the high-level basketball skill. Other BIG teams get those guys who have the right combination of athleticism and skill.

I do not disagree. I stuck to athleticism as that is often mentioned and is a bit less debatable than skill.

Skill is a lot more subjective. And there's also inherent skill and coached skill. No shocker that I think we fail miserable at the latter. We are like the opposite of Loyola 2021.

 

[TheC]

I do not disagree. I stuck to athleticism as that is often mentioned and is a bit less debatable than skill.

Skill is a lot more subjective. And there's also inherent skill and coached skill. No shocker that I think we fail miserable at the latter. We are like the opposite of Loyola 2021.

That's a great question about how much skill is coached and how much is just inherent. How do guys like Johny Davis and Kegan Murray all of a sudden explode one year. It seems like we never get a guy to do that. My hopes for this year were that Nance would explode like a Murray or Davis. While he got better, he clearly didn't explode into a superstar. Is that coaching? Is it off-season work? Is it just his natural limitations?

 

[SDakaGordie]

Basketball skill on offense is being a difference maker as a great shooter, great penetrator/assist guy and/or or a great offensive rebounder. Which ones of any of those do we have? Buie may do ok on assists, but he really still can’t consistently beat better guards off the dribble.

 

[GatoLouco]

That's a great question about how much skill is coached and how much is just inherent. How do guys like Johny Davis and Kegan Murray all of a sudden explode one year. It seems like we never get a guy to do that. My hopes for this year were that Nance would explode like a Murray or Davis. While he got better, he clearly didn't explode into a superstar. Is that coaching? Is it off-season work? Is it just his natural limitations?

It's not only the individual skill of Murray or Keegan. It is the skill to make good decisions, interpret the plays, interpret the game overall. That is very, very coachable. Give a good coach some decent bodies, you can read it as athleticism, and see what he can do.

That's why I called it the opposite of Loyola under Moser. What great "skilled" players they had? Krutwig was even less athletic than RY. Did not have a jumper either. It was all about good decisions, good execution, discipline. It was not a fluke they beat a much more "skilled" IL team.

Find a Moser. Not a Collins.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

It's not only the individual skill of Murray or Keegan. It is the skill to make good decisions, interpret the plays, interpret the game overall. That is very, very coachable. Give a good coach some decent bodies, you can read it as athleticism, and see what he can do.

That's why I called it the opposite of Loyola under Moser. What great "skilled" players they had? Krutwig was even less athletic than RY. Did not have a jumper either. It was all about good decisions, good execution, discipline. It was not a fluke they beat a much more "skilled" IL team.

Find a Moser. Not a Collins.

Krutwig was good his first year at Loyola. Moser didn’t develop him from a raw recruit. RY redshirted a year too.

 

[GatoLouco]

Krutwig was good his first year at Loyola. Moser didn’t develop him from a raw recruit. RY redshirted a year too.

You're thinking in terms of Krutwig scoring, rebounding... for the most part inherent skill. You work on it, improve it by getting stonger, etc. but, for the most part, it's like IQ, you either have it or you do not.

I'm thinking in terms of Krutwig making better and better decisions to the point some called him, jokingly, a point center. You cut instead of standing around, you fake a pass because your defender is anticipating a dribble hand off, you guard a screen better, you look for team mates rolling after setting screens... multiply that by 5 guys, making better decisions, and you have a great team. And that's coaching. And it's a grind as it takes years with the same guys to get them there.

 

[TheC]

You're thinking in terms of Krutwig scoring, rebounding... for the most part inherent skill. You work on it, improve it by getting stonger, etc. but, for the most part, it's like IQ, you either have it or you do not.

I'm thinking in terms of Krutwig making better and better decisions to the point some called him, jokingly, a point center. You cut instead of standing around, you fake a pass because your defender is anticipating a dribble hand off, you guard a screen better, you look for team mates rolling after setting screens... multiply that by 5 guys, making better decisions, and you have a great team. And that's coaching. And it's a grind as it takes years with the same guys to get them there.

I can't remember the last time I thought to myself or heard an announcer exclaim about a brilliant/smart play from a Northwestern player. I guess we had a couple good backdoor cuts and maybe some moves by Young, but nothing like what you described for Krutwig.

 

[peatymeanis]

His program-building philosophy is ‘get the best players I can, and figure out what to do with them.’ In many ways, this is a beautiful strategy — build my team to the shape of my talent.

That requires creativity, flexibility, good communication, and player development in addition to excellent scouting to find diamonds in the rough. All things that Collins fails miserably at.

 

[SDakaGordie]

It's not only the individual skill of Murray or Keegan. It is the skill to make good decisions, interpret the plays, interpret the game overall. That is very, very coachable. Give a good coach some decent bodies, you can read it as athleticism, and see what he can do.

That's why I called it the opposite of Loyola under Moser. What great "skilled" players they had? Krutwig was even less athletic than RY. Did not have a jumper either. It was all about good decisions, good execution, discipline. It was not a fluke they beat a much more "skilled" IL team.

Find a Moser. Not a Collins.

I hope OU is patient, as Year 1 under Moser was nothing to write home about.

 

[SDakaGordie]

That is not a bad thing if you are a Northwestern coach. We don't get to go to the supermarket and pick off the shelf. I am fully on board with taking best available, with the obvious caveat of having to get to a balanced roster by position.

The problem is the CC has zero ability to turn best available into a style of play that fits what he has in front of him. If you want a rigid style that is your own, then recruit for it. Might be impossible at NU. If you take best available, adapt, and maximize what you have. CC is atrocious with this as this last season demonstrated in an extreme way.

Folks so often talk here about talent or athletic deficits we have against other programs. But that's where I think we made a huge leap forward. CC was the first coach to bring a roster of players with actual B1G bodies. No comparison to anything we saw before.

Just yesterday I am watching Indiana and thinking how in the world would someone see us as less athletic than the Hossiers?

Based on an idea of athleticism as a combo of speed and length:

Jackson Davis vs Nance - slight advantage IU
Thompson vs Beran - even
Johnson vs Audige - even
Stewart vs Buie - even
Kopp vs Roper - slight advantage NU

A few data points that counter this:

You would differ than the coaches and the media, who had Jackson-Davis on 2nd team All Big and Nance as Honorable mention. That’s more than slight.

Trace Thompson averages 11 and 8, vs. Beran at 6 and 4. Huge difference.

Audige shot 25% from 3. Stewart shot 39%. Kopp shot 36%. Huge difference.

XJ torched us when he played for Pitt. He averages 2 points less but more rebounds and assists than Buie. He’s much faster and better defensively.

Their bench is much better than ours. Look how they stayed with us when down 3 starters.

Their defensive efficiency is #1 in the conference; better athletes who can guard 1-on-1.

 

[Styre]

I hope OU is patient, as Year 1 under Moser was nothing to write home about.

I mean, they lost 9 scholarship players in the offseason and Moser rebuilt well enough on the fly to have them in the first four out of the NCAAs. We'll see how he does going forward but I wouldn't call that a black mark on his record.

 

[GatoLouco]

A few data points that counter this:

You would differ than the coaches and the media, who had Jackson-Davis on 2nd team All Big and Nance as Honorable mention. That’s more than slight.

Trace Thompson averages 11 and 8, vs. Beran at 6 and 4. Huge difference.

Audige shot 25% from 3. Stewart shot 39%. Kopp shot 36%. Huge difference.

XJ torched us when he played for Pitt. He averages 2 points less but more rebounds and assists than Buie. He’s much faster and better defensively.

Their bench is much better than ours. Look how they stayed with us when down 3 starters.

Their defensive efficiency is #1 in the conference; better athletes who can guard 1-on-1.

Close to everything you said, I won’t dispute it as it’s a waste of time, could be leveled by good coaching.

Everything I said was about athleticism and I was kind to Indiana. That is what it is, and does not depend on coaching.

But go ahead and continue to defend a dude that not even the AD hides anymore not being worth defending.

Or go watch Wright State and see how a team outmatched physically looks like the best team on the floor. At least for now.

 

[SDakaGordie]

Close to everything you said, I won’t dispute it as it’s a waste of time, could be leveled by good coaching.

Everything I said was about athleticism and I was kind to Indiana. That is what it is, and does not depend on coaching.

But go ahead and continue to defend a dude that not even the AD hides anymore not being worth defending.

Or go watch Wright State and see how a team outmatched physically looks like the best team on the floor. At least for now.

Yup - it’s a waste of time if you don’t agree with it. Got it. And I’m happy defending Collins with facts when others choose to just pile on the coach based on pure frustration that we can’t produce more than 1 NCAA team in 80 years - that’s the elephant in the room - not Collins. All of a sudden after one year of success under Collins we all think we should get there 1 in 5 years or better, when all we have is some shiny new facilities and some more money. That doesn’t change the expectations everyone brings about NU and specifically the game of basketball based on our history and our administration policies.

 

[GatoLouco]

Yup - it’s a waste of time if you don’t agree with it. Got it. And I’m happy defending Collins with facts when others choose to just pile on the coach based on pure frustration that we can’t produce more than 1 NCAA team in 80 years - that’s the elephant in the room - not Collins. All of a sudden after one year of success under Collins we all think we should get there 1 in 5 years or better, when all we have is some shiny new facilities and some more money. That doesn’t change the expectations everyone brings about NU and specifically the game of basketball based on our history and our administration policies.

You want to discuss statistics to argue that others have such superior players. We won 7 games. They won more. They are going to have better statistics. Had we been as good as we should be, our players would have had better statistics than what you see.

Sounds like simple logic and why it’s a waste of time arguing your numbers.

I pile on CC because he deserves it. You piled on Moser just because somehow you leaped from me using him as a good coach examples as that somehow constituting an attack on CC. Relax, one does not imply the other.

 

[wildcatpn]

I mean, they lost 9 scholarship players in the offseason and Moser rebuilt well enough on the fly to have them in the first four out of the NCAAs. We'll see how he does going forward but I wouldn't call that a black mark on his record.

The fact that the guy doesn’t understand this and actually thinks Collins is even in the same universe as Moser as a coach says all you need to know about him.

 

[SDakaGordie]

You want to discuss statistics to argue that others have such superior players. We won 7 games. They won more. They are going to have better statistics. Had we been as good as we should be, our players would have had better statistics than what you see.

Sounds like simple logic and why it’s a waste of time arguing your numbers.

I pile on CC because he deserves it. You piled on Moser just because somehow you leaped from me using him as a good coach examples as that somehow constituting an attack on CC. Relax, one does not imply the other.

So you don’t think guys have better stats and get accolades because they are better, rather only because their team is better? (See Jamison and Willis for obvious examples). So you think Collins caused all of those missed shots by Audige and those missed layups which led us to be 14th in the league in offensive efficiency? So you can attack CC relentlessly and I can’t make one comment on Moser, who you’ve praised dozens of times? Guess you like to create your own rules. Those are reasons why I should reply to you and not “relax”.

 

[SDakaGordie]

The fact that the guy doesn’t understand this and actually thinks Collins is even in the same universe as Moser as a coach says all you need to know about him.

I did not know that, so I will retract my comment about Moser. I now will look to see if you have the decency to have read my other posts and withdraw a conclusion about me based on one flawed comment.

 

[wildcatpn]

I did not know that, so I will retract my comment about Moser. I now will look to see if you have the decency to have read my other posts and withdraw a conclusion about me based on one flawed comment.

Do you believe Chris Collins is as good of a coach as Porter Moser?

 

[SDakaGordie]

Do you believe Chris Collins is as good of a coach as Porter Moser?

Moser appears to be an outstanding coach. No - Collins is not better than Moser. (We can also objectively say Moser is a WAY better coach than Underwood). To my other intended point - we shall see how he does on a bigger stage.

 

[wildcatpn]

Moser appears to be an outstanding coach. No - Collins is not better than Moser. (We can also objectively say Moser is a WAY better coach than Underwood). To my other intended point - we shall see how he does on a bigger stage.

So, your not willing to admit that Moser is a better coach than Collins.

 

[SDakaGordie]

So, your not willing to admit that Moser is a better coach than Collins.

Huh? I’m not sure who “your” is, but read my second sentence.

 

[wildcatpn]

Huh? I’m not sure who “your” is, but read my second sentence.

Huh? Your 2nd sentence says Collins is not better than Moser. Nowhere do you say that Moser is a better coach than Collins.

 

[SDakaGordie]

Huh? Your 2nd sentence says Collins is not better than Moser. Nowhere do you say that Moser is a better coach than Collins.

OMG - this English lesson is going nowhere.

 

[wildcatpn]

OMG - this English lesson is going nowhere.

You refuse to admit that Moser is a better coach than Collins. It’s not even close but you can’t even say he’s a little better. You have to be a Collins family member.

 

[SDakaGordie]

I said Collins is not better; that’s the same as Moser is better. Are you for real?

 

[wildcatpn]

I said Collins is not better; that’s the same as Moser is better. Are you for real?

No it’s not the same. I don’t think Andrew Marty was better than Ryan Hilinski last season. That doesn’t mean I think Hilinski was better than Marty. They were both equally bad in my opinion.

At least you actually said Moser is better in your last post.

 

[SDakaGordie]

No it’s not the same. I don’t think Andrew Marty was better than Ryan Hilinski last season. That doesn’t mean I think Hilinski was better than Marty. They were both equally bad in my opinion.

At least you actually said Moser is better in your last post.

I’ve never seen anyone try so hard to read into something. And I don’t know what your first paragraph means.

 

[wildcatpn]

I’ve never seen anyone try so hard to read into something. And I don’t know what your first paragraph means.

Seriously, this is a huge waste of time but have you ever heard the word equal?

Saying something is not better than something else does not mean that “something” is automatically worse. They could be equal.

Of course I could’ve deduced you were saying Moser is better but you being the ultimate Collins apologist had me assuming it was just your way of insinuating Collins isn’t better but he’s just as good.

Not hard to understand.

 

[SDakaGordie]

I thought it was settled at my response of No.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Seriously, this is a huge waste of time but have you ever heard the word equal?

Saying something is not better than something else does not mean that “something” is automatically worse. They could be equal.

Of course I could’ve deduced you were saying Moser is better but you being the ultimate Collins apologist had me assuming it was just your way of insinuating Collins isn’t better but he’s just as good.

Not hard to understand.

I feel your pain.
Gordie just won't let it go.
You asked him if he thought A >= B.
He replied A<= B.

Then he claimed he answered your question.

I've been there. I find it exponentially ironic that he is now attempting to use statistics to prove that Indiana's players are more athletic than Northwestern's. Every time I point out statistics about the performance of our players or our lineups, he rejects them, even though they are facts being applied appropriately.

And now he applies stats like shooting percentage to try to argue difficult to quantify concepts like "athleticism." All to concoct defenses for Collins.

Best to avoid...

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Gragg's comments on the basketball program...

 

[peatymeanis]

I feel your pain.
Gordie just won't let it go.
You asked him if he thought A >= B.
He replied A<= B.

Then he claimed he answered your question.

I've been there. I find it exponentially ironic that he is now attempting to use statistics to prove that Indiana's players are more athletic than Northwestern's. Every time I point out statistics about the performance of our players or our lineups, he rejects them, even though they are facts being applied appropriately.

And now he applies stats like shooting percentage to try to argue difficult to quantify concepts like "athleticism." All to concoct defenses for Collins.

Best to avoid...

The funny thing is that the whole supposed basis for his support of Collins is that he is in possession of a secret performance metric that measures Collins teams as more 'competitive' than any other NU team in history.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

The funny thing is that the whole supposed basis for his support of Collins is that he is in possession of a secret performance metric that measures Collins teams as more 'competitive' than any other NU team in history.

Well, we definitely played "more competitively" than last year. And thats a credit to the players.

A better coach gets that team to the NCAA tournament.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Well, we definitely played "more competitively" than last year. And thats a credit to the players.

A better coach gets that team to the NCAA tournament.

If the Coach is John Wooden.

 

[SDakaGordie]

The funny thing is that the whole supposed basis for his support of Collins is that he is in possession of a secret performance metric that measures Collins teams as more 'competitive' than any other NU team in history.

Yah right, my (I won’t fill in the blank).
Typical board unfounded accusations and denigration. Just sad.

Northwestern Wildcats Men's Basketball Index | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Northwestern Wildcats College Basketball History, Stats, Records, Polls, Leaders and More College Basketball Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

 

[phatcat]

If the Coach is John Wooden.

hmm. Maybe. Let's say we had a "top 20" coach, if there is such a thing. Not John Wooden, but not Chris Collins. Any chance a real coach could have led this team to, say, 5 wins out of the games v Prov, WF, PSU, MD, Mich, IL?. Maybe we don't run into buzz-saw Iowa in the BTT? It's a reach, but we had a lot of collapses.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

If the Coach is John Wooden.

Even I won't go so far as to claim a dead person could have coached NU to the NCAA tournament.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

hmm. Maybe. Let's say we had a "top 20" coach, if there is such a thing. Not John Wooden, but not Chris Collins. Any chance a real coach could have led this team to, say, 5 wins out of the games v Prov, WF, PSU, MD, Mich, IL?. Maybe we don't run into buzz-saw Iowa in the BTT? It's a reach, but we had a lot of collapses.

Of course.
You've just gotten accustomed to bad coaching.

 

[Secho99]

That's why I called it the opposite of Loyola under Moser. What great "skilled" players they had? Krutwig was even less athletic than RY. Did not have a jumper either. It was all about good decisions, good execution, discipline. It was not a fluke they beat a much more "skilled" IL team.

Find a Moser. Not a Collins.

I like Moser a lot too, but let’s remember that his first NCAA tournament team was in his 14th year as a head coach and 7th year at Loyola. He didn’t have a winning conference record in any of his first 6 seasons there. He had a tremendous 4-year run but it didn’t all happen quickly.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I like Moser a lot too, but let’s remember that his first NCAA tournament team was in his 14th year as a head coach and 7th year at Loyola. He didn’t have a winning conference record in any of his first 6 seasons there. He had a tremendous 4-year run but it didn’t all happen quickly.

He was fired by Illinois State! Granted, it ranks up there with the worse decisions in school history.