Ole Mi$$ Player Dropping Bombs

[IGNORE2]

Not because a private organization said so. Because a very large body of academic institutions got together and agreed that it should be so.

Easy to blame the NCAA when you don't like what the nation's colleges and universities have agreed upon in sports. But one should never forget that the NCAA can't make broad, far-reaching decisions without the support and agreement of at least a majority of its member institutions.

Want to change the rules? Have at it. All you have to do is convince a majority of colleges and universities to raise their hand. Or maybe all it would take would be the majority of the 128 institutions in FCS, or maybe even just the majority of those in the Power 5 conferences.

We made college athletes amateur, and defined that as not being allowed to receive pay to play. We did, our society. Don't lay that one on the NCAA as an institution, it's a cop-out.

We did that when there wasn't major revenue involved, when we knew less about the potential destructive results to the human, before we had such popular and well compensated professional ranks. Status quo doesn't make things right. Large institutional control doesn't insure fairness.

This country was borne out of demanding change when the system in place no longer served this country and was patently unfair. These major academic institutions began as educational institutions and many grew into athletic factories when the revenue encouraged it and the rules allowed it. I'm sure the cotton farmers weren't excited about losing the free labor either - might have gone to war over it.

So, I lay this on the feet on the NCAA for not evolving with the times and hording the money that has developed. Then, I blame those that enable them.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

We did that when there wasn't major revenue involved, when we knew less about the potential destructive results to the human, before we had such popular and well compensated professional ranks. Status quo doesn't make things right. Large institutional control doesn't insure fairness.

This country was borne out of demanding change when the system in place no longer served this country and was patently unfair. These major academic institutions began as educational institutions and many grew into athletic factories when the revenue encouraged it and the rules allowed it. I'm sure the cotton farmers weren't excited about losing the free labor either - might have gone to war over it.

So, I lay this on the feet on the NCAA for not evolving with the times and hording the money that has developed. Then, I blame those that enable them.

And we can change the rules of collegiate athletics whenever we want to. That's not a power the NCAA has, it's a power the people of the US have, and more specifically a power their colleges and universities collectively have.

Still a cop-out.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Heh, argue with me all you want, you guys gotta at least give me some props for single-handedly arguing in four different directions with six of you. I'm a bit out-numbered here, but happy to keep going. I feel a bit like Bobby Fischer in the Park.

 

[IGNORE2]

Want to change the rules? Have at it. All you have to do is convince a majority of colleges and universities to raise their hand. Or maybe all it would take would be the majority of the 128 institutions in FCS, or maybe even just the majority of those in the Power 5 conferences.

Maybe. Apparently the NCAA is struggling to enforce there antiquated rules. They turned a blind eye when Johnny Football was exposed going into his senior year. Tunsil is out of their reach. Wasn't there also some recent cases out of dOSU? Assume nobody convinces anybody to change anything. Then these transgressions will continue, become more flagrant and push the line. I guess then the NCAA will be forced to do something. Push too hard in one direction (against the star student athletes), they risk a push back in some form, or worse, an opportunistic creation of an alternative. In that case, the NCAA could lose all it has built.

 

[thewildcat2011]

Unless that court was named the NCAA, I rest my case.

The NCAA created the term student-athlete in order to deny workers comp to a dead player's wife in Colorado in the 1950s. The supreme court of Col., decided to side with the NCAA. I do not think that the supreme court of Colorado in the 1950s is representative of society. I also things might be a liiiiiiiitle bit different today than they were back then. A private organization did create the term to suit their needs. Just because a court in one state agreed does not mean that we as society (whatever that means) are responsible for it. The legal system is often a battle of perverse incentives and money, not a reflection on what society's views are.

 

[IGNORE2]

Heh, argue with me all you want, you guys gotta at least give me some props for single-handedly arguing in four different directions with six of you. I'm a bit out-numbered here, but happy to keep going.

I do that routinely, successfully and am the most commonly IGNORED member here. Something I take great pride as a badge demonstrating the better way to weed out the imbeciles without doing anything myself.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The NCAA created the term student-athlete in order to deny workers comp to a dead player's wife in Colorado in the 1950s. The supreme court of Col., decided to side with the NCAA. I do not think that the supreme court of Colorado in the 1950s is representative of society. I also things might be a liiiiiiiitle bit different today than they were back then. A private organization did create the term to suit their needs. Just because a court in one state agreed does not mean that we as society (whatever that means) are responsible for it. The legal system is often a battle of perverse incentives and money, not a reflection on what society's views are.

Dude, you can change it, any time you want. If you can get a majority of Americans to agree with you, the colleges and universities will absolutely follow suit (esp. the public ones), and THEY decide what the rules are. The NCAA is just their agent.

Blaming the NCAA is a cop-out. It's like hiring a nanny and then blaming her when your kid grows up to be a sociopath.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I do that routinely, successfully and am the most commonly IGNORED member here. Something I take great pride as a badge demonstrating the better way to weed out the imbeciles without doing anything myself.

heh, props.

 

[IGNORE2]

And we can change the rules of collegiate athletics whenever we want to. That's not a power the NCAA has, it's a power the people of the US have, and more specifically a power their colleges and universities collectively have.

Still a cop-out.

When you descend to 'a cop-out' as your strongest argument, I sense victory. And my understanding is that you and I have zero vote on NCAA rules and a less than marginal impact on their revenue. Outside the college members, the ones that can force a change are the star athletes themselves. And as they become more sophisticated and more organized, I think that is where change will begin.

 

[thewildcat2011]

Dude, you can change it, any time you want. If you can get a majority of Americans to agree with you, the colleges and universities will absolutely follow suit (esp. the public ones), and THEY decide what the rules are. The NCAA is just their agent.

Blaming the NCAA is a cop-out. It's like hiring a nanny and then blaming her when your kid grows up to be a sociopath.

Why would colleges do what the people want rather than what suits their needs?

 

[NJCat]

Blaming the NCAA is a cop-out. It's like hiring a nanny and then blaming her when your kid grows up to be a sociopath.

Very good point. The NCAA is just a front for University administrations. Schools are addicted to the money big time sports brings in as well as the publicity and donations from boosters.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Let's take an idea, one that has some factual underpinnings in specific instances. Then let's generalize based on those. A lot. And come up with some sweeping statements that condemn a whole group of entities by association.

In some applications, that's called racism. In others, bigotry. In yet others, stupidity.

Which would you prefer we call your perspective in this case?

If Ole Miss is a cheating football program, absolutely call the school out. If Alabama cheats as well, castigate them too. And Ohio State? Yep, rail against them.

But just as you wouldn't want Northwestern to be called a cheating cesspool merely by association with OSU, Michigan and others in the B10, I don't appreciate Tennessee being tarred with the same brush you're using on Ole Miss.

One can only conclude that the repeated SEC-bashing found in this forum is x% immaturity, y% mean-spiritedness, and z% inferiority complex. Don't have enough data yet to solve for those three unknowns, but they all seem to be in the equation.

Not sure you want to play that card after Willie Martinez had to serve a one-game suspension for recruiting violations. Clearly not on the same level as the accusations leveled at Ole Miss, but makes it pretty hard to simply say "WE DON'T CHEAT AT TENNESSEE!"

 

[VFL-82-JP]

When you descend to 'a cop-out' as your strongest argument, I sense victory.

Then you are one of the rare breed who sense victory just as they approach defeat. Any Custers in your family tree?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Very good point. The NCAA is just a front for University administrations. Schools are addicted to the money big time sports brings in as well as the publicity and donations from boosters.

There you go, Fitzphile, that's seeing things more clearly. Well done.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Not sure you want to play that card after Willie Martinez had to serve a one-game suspension for recruiting violations. Clearly not on the same level as the accusations leveled at Ole Miss, but makes it pretty hard to simply say "WE DON'T CHEAT AT TENNESSEE!"

Do you have the first idea what Martinez did? Or did you just rush here to post something after googling?

 

[stpaulcat]

Football isn't everything in Oxford. It's the only thing.

 

[HawkCat]

Did NU not get exposed for its basketball players shaving points in games and being paid to do so?

And not too long after that, did NU not get exposed again for its football players betting on their own games?

I don't think NU is a cheating cesspool because some of its players cheated. Especially since the institution responded in the right way.

And I don't fault UT because one its coaches held a barbeque at his house, and then lied about it to the NCAA (that was Pearl). Because the institution responded in the right way.

By the way, Tyndall did nothing wrong while at Tennessee; you seem to be claiming he did. And Kiffin (God, I truly dislike that man-child) had only minor recruiting violations of the nature that happen throughout just about all programs from time to time (texting a player in a recruiting dead period, etc.). You wrote your sentence as if Tennessee hired three thugs and set them lose on the NCAA rulebook. Gross mischaracterization, if that's what was intended.

Cheating is acting dishonestly to gain an unfair advantage. Point-shaving is literally the opposite of cheating vis-a-vis performance on the field/court. It is ridiculous to equate point-shaving by players (without their coaches' knowledge) with cheating by coaches. Both are bad, but they are entirely different animals.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Do you have the first idea what Martinez did? Or did you just rush here to post something after googling?

Improper contact with a junior, if I recall correctly.

I follow this stuff WAAYYY too closely.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Improper contact with a junior, if I recall correctly.

I follow this stuff WAAYYY too closely.

Heh, yep. He talked to a recruit in a period when contact was not allowed. Small potatoes. The only reason he got suspended a game is because he did it knowingly.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

You ever stop and wonder if your parochial viewpoint is blinding you to an objective understanding of the situation?

I do, from time to time. It's a bit of intellectual honesty I force upon myself. It can be uncomfortable, but I think it benefits me in the long term. I'm more insightful and balanced because of it.

So you think the SEC is a "cheating cesspool"? Then it might surprise you to find out that folks outside your small part of the world might see the B10 as a bigger cheater in the history of the NCAA.

Why do I conclude that? Because I take the time to check my parochialism by looking for the varied viewpoints of others.

And here's one: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/468221-the-25-biggest-scandals-in-ncaa-history/page/26

That 2010 article counts down the top 25 scandals of NCAA History. It might surprise you to find that Northwestern is among those 25 (at #13), while Alabama does not make the list at all. Nor does Tennessee.

In fact, the B10's member institutions are named in six of the 25 spots: Minnesota, Michigan, Northwestern, Illinios, and Ohio State (twice). The most eggregious? Minnesota's 1999 basketball team (the scandal reached back several years).

Only three of the 25 entries involve the SEC: two concerning Kentucky basketball (once in the 50s, again in the 80s) and the other involving Georgia's basketball team.

From that list, one might conclude that the B10 is twice as much of a "cheating cesspool" as the SEC, at least up to 2010 when the article was written.

Agree with that list or disagree with it, the opportunity to see the perspectives of those outside your close circle can be eye-opening. Objectivity can hurt sometimes....

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Heh, yep. He talked to a recruit in a period when contact was not allowed. Small potatoes. The only reason he got suspended a game is because he did it knowingly.

In other words, "cheating."

 

[VFL-82-JP]

In other words, "cheating."

In other words, "talking." He didn't shave points, he didn't throw a game, he didn't give or receive money, he didn't act dishonestly or dishonorably, he simply talked to a kid at the wrong time of year.

Yep, violation of the rulebook. Absolutely deserved the one-game suspension. Bad decision on his part. But nothing like those 25 gems in that article I quoted above.

 

[Gladeskat]

You ever stop and wonder if your parochial viewpoint is blinding you to an objective understanding of the situation?

I do, from time to time. It's a bit of intellectual honesty I force upon myself. It can be uncomfortable, but I think it benefits me in the long term. I'm more insightful and balanced because of it.

So you think the SEC is a "cheating cesspool"? Then it might surprise you to find out that folks outside your small part of the world might see the B10 as a bigger cheater in the history of the NCAA.

Why do I conclude that? Because I take the time to check my parochialism by looking for the varied viewpoints of others.

And here's one: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/468221-the-25-biggest-scandals-in-ncaa-history/page/26

That 2010 article counts down the top 25 scandals of NCAA History. It might surprise you to find that Northwestern is among those 25 (at #13), while Alabama does not make the list at all. Nor does Tennessee.

BLEACHER REPORT???!!!!

They rated the Duke Lacrosse scandal #6 when the Duke Lacrosse team DID NOTHING WRONG!!

Colorado's so-called sex scandal is #8 when Colorado DID NOTHING WRONG!!!

Northwestern DID NOTHING WRONG in the point shaving scandal. In fact, they were praised for bringing this to the attention of the NCAA

They also erroneously called Dion Lee and Dewey Wiliams football players. In other words, BR got nothing right in the article.

Do you realize Northwestern is one of 2 or 3 D1 programs that has never had a major NCAA violation. Not true for Tennessee or any other SEC program, is it?

 

[Gladeskat]

In other words, "talking." He didn't shave points, he didn't throw a game, he didn't give or receive money, he didn't act dishonestly or dishonorably, he simply talked to a kid at the wrong time of year.

Yep, violation of the rulebook. Absolutely deserved the one-game suspension. Bad decision on his part. But nothing like those 25 gems in that article I quoted above.

You mean those gems where many of the schools did nothing wrong? Do you know anything about these scandals? Apparently you don't. Total fail.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

In other words, "talking." He didn't shave points, he didn't throw a game, he didn't give or receive money, he didn't act dishonestly or dishonorably, he simply talked to a kid at the wrong time of year.

Yep, violation of the rulebook. Absolutely deserved the one-game suspension. Bad decision on his part. But nothing like those 25 gems in that article I quoted above.

It's interesting to me that you simultaneously chastise us for lumping the SEC together as cheaters while at the same time excusing blatant cheating.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I am beginning to sense some real butt-hurt.

Look, I'd love to continue to play Six-on-One Debating with you guys for the rest of the day, but it's time for me to head out to pick up my Vanderbilt student daughters and then on to a dinner engagement. I may return later tonight, but forgive me if I don't check back in until tomorrow. I'm sure you will leave me a number of polite, thoughtful and considerate responses in the meantime.


p.s. I'm still loving you guys and gals. None of what I've written here is meant to denigrate you; I hold NU and its alumni in high regard. Just enjoying the spirited discussion.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

BLEACHER REPORT???!!!!

Couldn't resist one final comment...just saw your note. My quickly-dashed response, because out of time:

NORTHWESTERN FAN???!!!!

(did you check to see who wrote that Bleacher Report article? hint, he's one of your own. if he goofed it up, blame his education )

 

[Gladeskat]

I am beginning to sense some real butt-hurt.

Look, I'd love to continue to play Six-on-One Debating with you guys for the rest of the day, but it's time for me to head out to pick up my Vanderbilt student daughters and then on to a dinner engagement. I may return later tonight, but forgive me if I don't check back in until tomorrow. I'm sure you will leave me a number of polite, thoughtful and considerate responses in the meantime.


p.s. I'm still loving you guys and gals. None of what I've written here is meant to denigrate you; I hold NU and its alumni in high regard. Just enjoying the spirited discussion.

Good, because I'm sensing some real ignorance and idiocy on the other end of this conversation.

Bleacher Report. They themselves are a major NCAA violation.

 

[Gladeskat]

Couldn't resist one final comment...just saw your note. My quickly-dashed response, because out of time:

NORTHWESTERN FAN???!!!!

(did you check to see who wrote that Bleacher Report article? hint, he's one of your own. if he goofed it up, blame his education )

I'm not surprised. Many of our student reporters are morons. That doesn't change the fact that the article is rubbish, and you used a rubbish article to make a point! Again...Total Fail.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

Did NU not get exposed for its basketball players shaving points in games and being paid to do so?

And not too long after that, did NU not get exposed again for its football players betting on their own games?

I don't think NU is a cheating cesspool because some of its players cheated. Especially since the institution responded in the right way.

And I don't fault UT because one its coaches held a barbeque at his house, and then lied about it to the NCAA (that was Pearl). Because the institution responded in the right way.

By the way, Tyndall did nothing wrong while at Tennessee; you seem to be claiming he did. And Kiffin (God, I truly dislike that man-child) had only minor recruiting violations of the nature that happen throughout just about all programs from time to time (texting a player in a recruiting dead period, etc.). You wrote your sentence as if Tennessee hired three thugs and set them lose on the NCAA rulebook. Gross mischaracterization, if that's what was intended.

So, NU has had one black mark in the last 23 years. Isn't Tennessee the school where rape is condoned to the point that the head coach is having little heart-to-heart chats directly with the police chief?

 

[IGNORE2]

Then you are one of the rare breed who sense victory just as they approach defeat. Any Custers in your family tree?

Lots of Indians.

 

[Sheffielder]

NCAA will "investigate."

Ole Miss will cut off the head and a new one will sprout. All the fired coaches and staff will find comparable jobs elsewhere.

Ole Miss maybe gets a one year bowl ban, will act like it's the end of the world. College football pundits and other idiots will argue it's unfair to the players who had nothing to do with it.

Maybe a scholarship reduction.

And then one year later we get pummeled by Ole Miss in the whatever bowl by four TDs. Or maybe in overtime by a FG. Either way it's a loss. And why wouldn't it be? We're almost literally not competing in the same sport.

Cheating is worth it in college football. 100% absolutely, positively worth it. And this will be another case study in proving my point.

EDIT: Unless or until penalties are harsh enough to deter the behavior. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[klemman]

BLEACHER REPORT???!!!!

They rated the Duke Lacrosse scandal #6 when the Duke Lacrosse team DID NOTHING WRONG!!

Colorado's so-called sex scandal is #8 when Colorado DID NOTHING WRONG!!!

Northwestern DID NOTHING WRONG in the point shaving scandal. In fact, they were praised for bringing this to the attention of the NCAA

They also erroneously called Dion Lee and Dewey Wiliams football players. In other words, BR got nothing right in the article.

Do you realize Northwestern is one of 2 or 3 D1 programs that has never had a major NCAA violation. Not true for Tennessee or any other SEC program, is it?

Among the several possible definitions of "scandal", one would be "bad publicity". Meaning you can have a scandal even if there was no actual wrong doing or not all those involved in the scandal weren't to blame.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Look, I'd love to continue to play Six-on-One Debating with you guys for the rest of the day, but it's time for me to head out to pick up my Vanderbilt student daughters and then on to a dinner engagement.

If I was getting my ass handed to me as badly as you are in this argument, I'd make up an excuse to duck out too!!

 

[VFL-82-JP]

If I was getting my ass handed to me as badly as you are in this argument, I'd make up an excuse to duck out too!!

That's funny. Because I've felt myself on pretty secure ground in all three or four directions the conversation has taken. I think, logically speaking, I've made a bit more sense and shown myself to be cleary more objective than the majority of my interlocutors, a couple of whom got so lost that they flat-out resorted to personal insults.

Good morning/afternoon, btw, to the community. Had a great dinner last night, thanks for the polite well wishes.

 

[Gladeskat]

That's funny. Because I've felt myself on pretty secure ground in all three or four directions the conversation has taken. I think, logically speaking, I've made a bit more sense and shown myself to be cleary more objective than the majority of my interlocutors, a couple of whom got so lost that they flat-out resorted to personal insults.

Good morning/afternoon, btw, to the community. Had a great dinner last night, thanks for the polite well wishes.

Yeah, you're on secure ground and making lots of sense...

 

[spartcat]

"In some applications, that's called racism. In others, bigotry. In yet others, stupidity." VFL....

Well,,,, it's not racism. Nothing in E-cat's portfolio mixes old highly gerrymandered borders for largely black townships and newer voting barriers. No police violence either. That's south of the Chicago border, among other places. Also, not all that much you can point to in football suggesting overt racism these days as far as I can tell. Stupidity? Not in terms of general intelligence. Ecat's pretty smart. Just ask him. Sort of a Ted Cruz type who knows what the round thing in basketball is called. Surprisingly we have a pretty wide range here. Bigotry? "We're just better than you" Can't disagree with him on average, but that does sound like a stereotype. Whatever.....

Anyway, we have reason to be a little suspicious about any football factory, SEC or otherwise. No reason to deny anyone their right to spout off based on few or no facts these days. That's nearly all I see on network news, other than the latest weather disaster.

Totally agree about spreading the blame though. Pretty good posts. I"m not sure how to significantly improve enforcement of these rules, but good ideas about that would be valuable.

 

[Quacs]

This is the article that raised my eyebrows re: how some SEC institutions have institutionalized cheating.

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

Don't know the author and whether or not this is all fabricated, but if true it speaks volumes about how circumventing the system is not only widespread but ingrained in the culture of most SEC institutions.

 

[Sheffielder]

This is the article that raised my eyebrows re: how some SEC institutions have institutionalized cheating.

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

Don't know the author and whether or not this is all fabricated, but if true it speaks volumes about how circumventing the system is not only widespread but ingrained in the culture of most SEC institutions.

I assure you the SEC isn't alone here.

But where the SEC most certainly benefits from "institutionalized cheating" ...
*When, say, satellite camps are banned.
*When the vast majority of bowl games are in the south (I mean, if you believe home field advantage is a thing)
*When a school banks the max # of recruits every single year, despite having fewer scholarships to offer than LOIs they collected
*When penalties for cheaters are limited enough to ensure no impact on tv and bowl contract negotiations

 

[EvanstonCat]

Let's take an idea, one that has some factual underpinnings in specific instances. Then let's generalize based on those. A lot. And come up with some sweeping statements that condemn a whole group of entities by association.

In some applications, that's called racism. In others, bigotry. In yet others, stupidity.

Which would you prefer we call your perspective in this case?

If Ole Miss is a cheating football program, absolutely call the school out. If Alabama cheats as well, castigate them too. And Ohio State? Yep, rail against them.

But just as you wouldn't want Northwestern to be called a cheating cesspool merely by association with OSU, Michigan and others in the B10, I don't appreciate Tennessee being tarred with the same brush you're using on Ole Miss.

One can only conclude that the repeated SEC-bashing found in this forum is x% immaturity, y% mean-spiritedness, and z% inferiority complex. Don't have enough data yet to solve for those three unknowns, but they all seem to be in the equation.

Yeah, it's a generalization. And yeah, it's probably not 100% fair. But, somehow I find it hard to believe that if the likes of James Franklin and Vanderbilt did things the way we know they did things that UT was squeaky clean. Points for you though - I don't know much about UT or their program, except when Kiffin was in charge (again, somehow, I am not sure things have changed much), so you have a point that projecting the likes of Bammer and Ole Miss on y'alls may be uncalled for. However, it's the easy way out.