OT: 19 year-old Wendell Carter on basketball....

[Medill90]

After a near 40 point loss last night to Toronto, he was asked if the Bulls were playing team ball....

"People are committed to the team effort. It's more so pointing fingers at themselves. People are putting their heads down, blaming themselves. I feel the beauty of this game is that there's another play in a matter of seconds. And we just have to move on and make another play next time down the court."

There are talented guys and gals who play high school, college and the pros and eventually retire without figuring this out.

 

[Sec.112]

For many of Carter's teammates, they need to find that next play in their second trip down the court. Even-bad-NBA-defense is not much of a concern for too many of the Bulls. What a trainwreck.

 

[scru]

Bad coaching, bad front office, bad owner. I actually think there are some pieces on this team that could work once healthy, but I'd still be tanking this season and look to get one more. They are still missing a true #1 player. Tank this season, replace Fred and front office, and then see what you can do.

 

[Medill90]

Bad coaching, bad front office, bad owner. I actually think there are some pieces on this team that could work once healthy, but I'd still be tanking this season and look to get one more. They are still missing a true #1 player. Tank this season, replace Fred and front office, and then see what you can do.

I've come to the realization that this is exactly what GarPax are doing, sans the front office.

They made a big deal before the season, saying publicly, "we don't ever want to go through another year like last year." I believe that was spin for the sake of league oversight.

They have two perennial starters....Carter and Lauri....and a potential third in Levine. But, really, nothing else. If they can finish bottom three or four, they can land one of the Duke kids and start pulling in free agents. And a coach.

 

[corbi296]

For many of Carter's teammates, they need to find that next play in their second trip down the court. Even-bad-NBA-defense is not much of a concern for too many of the Bulls. What a trainwreck.

Train wreck? I don’t agree. They are playing with their top four players out with injury. How many NBA teams can overcome that? Levine and Markannen are all stars and Carter is looking like he has that potential. Dunn and Portis are solid NBA rotation players. With another lottery pick and a big free agent signing like Anthony Davis this team could be a title contender in a couple of years.

 

[Medill90]

corbi...they are really making sure the guys that are out heal up completely before even practicing....they went out with legit injuries....if this was already a championship calibre team a couple would already be back playing.

The Valentine thing interests me....his career may be over.

 

[corbi296]

corbi...they are really making sure the guys that are out heal up completely before even practicing....they went out with legit injuries....if this was already a championship calibre team a couple would already be back playing.

The Valentine thing interests me....his career may be over.

Yes, the organization realizes getting another lottery pick could materially improve their outlook beyond this season. That being said, I honestly believe this team could win 40 games if they were healthy from the start and playing all out. I love Markannen/Lavine and Carter is much better than I thought. I also think Portis, Dunn are good complimentary pieces that could be part of this team when they are ready to make a run. If they are able to add a top wing or point guard in this next draft, I really think they are poised to make a run at bringing Anthony Davis back home when he hits Free agency. If that happens, look out.

I did not realize Valentine was that badly injured. I feel for him but never felt he had much upside.

 

[JournCat]

I've come to the realization that this is exactly what GarPax are doing, sans the front office.

They made a big deal before the season, saying publicly, "we don't ever want to go through another year like last year." I believe that was spin for the sake of league oversight.

They have two perennial starters....Carter and Lauri....and a potential third in Levine. But, really, nothing else. If they can finish bottom three or four, they can land one of the Duke kids and start pulling in free agents. And a coach.

From the start, I believed the Parker signing was brilliant. You sell tickets with the Chicago connection and create the appearance of trying with the $20M contract, all the while destroying your defense to the point where it’s impossible to win most nights. A perfect tank move.

 

[Sec.112]

... With another lottery pick and a big free agent signing like Anthony Davis this team could be a title contender in a couple of years.

I fully acknowledge the reason for the trainwreck is injuries, but there's also a whole lot of dumb surrounding what's happening. How much farther down their roster do they need to go to cover up their odd fascination with Cam Payne?

And no matter how many injuries there are, Fred Hoiberg is obviously struggling to maintain control of this group.

How many years into this do we want to call the rebuild? Two years plus the Dwayne Wade year? And they still ONLY need a lottery pick and a big free agent? Let's not talk about how bad the Bulls reputation is when you hope for that free agent.

 

[Sec.112]

From the start, I believed the Parker signing was brilliant ... A perfect tank move.

Don't forget they were trying to get to the cap minimum.

 

[Alan Smithee]

The best seats I've ever had for a Bulls game was last night, and...woof!

Fortunately the seats also included VIP parking which made an early exit even quicker.

That was ugly.

 

[corbi296]

I fully acknowledge the reason for the trainwreck is injuries, but there's also a whole lot of dumb surrounding what's happening. How much farther down their roster do they need to go to cover up their odd fascination with Cam Payne?

And no matter how many injuries there are, Fred Hoiberg is obviously struggling to maintain control of this group.

How many years into this do we want to call the rebuild? Two years plus the Dwayne Wade year? And they still ONLY need a lottery pick and a big free agent? Let's not talk about how bad the Bulls reputation is when you hope for that free agent.

Believe me, I have issues with Gar/Pax and Hoiberg. Payne is a bum and it only took them a year and a half to figure that out. The good news is that Archidiacono looks like a young player Hoiberg has developed into a serviceable back up NBA point guard. All of that being said, by luck or otherwise Bulls management has made some excellent decisions of late that have the prospects of the franchise looking up. The Butler trade timing was perfect and their willingness to bet on Lavine despite his injury has paid off. He is a star. They've also hit back to back home runs with their first round picks of Markannen and Carter, two guys who now look like they should have been much higher picks. If they can hit on another lottery pick, this team is sitting pretty. I realize the Bulls have a less than stellar reputation amongst players but ultimately they want to get paid and they want to win. If the Bulls core is as attractive as I think it might be and as long as they offer him a max contract, I'd be shocked if Davis doesn't strongly consider a Bulls offer to come home to play.

 

[NUCat320]

From the start, I believed the Parker signing was brilliant. You sell tickets with the Chicago connection and create the appearance of trying with the $20M contract, all the while destroying your defense to the point where it’s impossible to win most nights. A perfect tank move.

I don’t follow the Bulls enough to validate this, but I love the idea of signing a secretly not-so-good player to a pretty-good-player contract for the express purpose of losing better. The nba is wonderful.

Also, Curry and Thompson were lottery picks, but not full-tank lottery picks, and Draymond Green was a second rounder.

While Philly has the looks of a successful “process”, the fact is that tanking has never actually resulted in an NBA championship (though the Cubs and Astros ranked to World Series wins).

 

[Hungry Jack]

The Bulls and Hawks seem to be racing to the bottom.

 

[evanston09]

Lavine is a scorer. Stars make a big impact in terms of helping you win. Lavine doesn’t check that box.

 

[corbi296]

Lavine is a scorer. Stars make a big impact in terms of helping you win. Lavine doesn’t check that box.

Have you been watching him play this year? The guy is not just a scorer. He is becoming a very efficient shooter and playmaker. He also has become a much better defender. He still has a lot of work to do to become more consistent on the defensive end but he is getting much better. The guy is only 23 years old. I have no doubt he will be a perennial all star very soon.

 

[JournCat]

Have you been watching him play this year? The guy is not just a scorer. He is becoming a very efficient shooter and playmaker. He also has become a much defender. He still has a lot of work to do to become more consistent on the defensive end but he is getting much better. The guy is only 23 years old. I have no doubt he will be a perennial all star very soon.

His defense has become solidly mediocre, which is to say passable. Many of us were skeptical of that signing, but it looks much better now. He could be a starter on a playoff team.

 

[corbi296]

His defense has become solidly mediocre, which is to say passable. Many of us were skeptical of that signing, but it looks much better now. He could be a starter on a playoff team.

I agree. Defense is an attitude and I don’t think he has been in a culture and in a position where playing great defense is a requirement. He certainly has the skills to be a very good defender but it probably won’t happen in chicago as long as Fred Hoiberg is the head coach.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I agree. Defense is an attitude and I don’t think he has been in a culture and in a position where playing great defense is a requirement. He certainly has the skills to be a very good defender but it probably won’t happen in chicago as long as Fred Hoiberg is the head coach.

Fred seems like a good guy, but no way they are keeping him at the helm when/if they get good.

 

[evanston09]

Have you been watching him play this year? The guy is not just a scorer. He is becoming a very efficient shooter and playmaker. He also has become a much better defender. He still has a lot of work to do to become more consistent on the defensive end but he is getting much better. The guy is only 23 years old. I have no doubt he will be a perennial all star very soon.

Nothing you said disqualifies what I said, and nothing I said disqualifies yours. They both can be and are true.

 

[Medill90]

LaVine is still figuring it out.

He's 23 years old and spent the majority of two seasons injured. Before that, two years at a broken Minnesota.

He spent only one year in college at a so-so UCLA program.

Contrast that with GOAT who spent three years in arguably the best college program in the country. Jordan had three years of Dean Smith...LaVine had one of Alford and two of whoever coached Minny...and now...ugh.

At question is his understanding of winning in the NBA and defense. The two, of course, are related.

LaVine has the tools to be an excellent defender. He needs the coaching, the organization around him, and a bit of maturity to understand it's importance.

He can be a very good defender in three years....about the time the Bulls may be a serious team again. While he can't be guarded, he has some issues with his offense. That, too, can be fixed....in part with better players.

 

[corbi296]

Nothing you said disqualifies what I said, and nothing I said disqualifies yours. They both can be and are true.

I beg to differ. The implied message of your post is that Lavine is a scorer rather than a complete player. I completely disagree and think a careful viewing of the games so far this year bares that out. Lavine is carrying this team and keeping them in games. Without him the Bulls have been losing by 20+. The fact they have not won many overall this year is a reflection of the major injuries they have sustained to other key players, not a reflection of Lavine’s developing all around skills. From your comments I conclude you have not watched the Bulls games very closely this year.

 

[NU Houston]

LaVine is still figuring it out.

He's 23 years old and spent the majority of two seasons injured. Before that, two years at a broken Minnesota.

He spent only one year in college at a so-so UCLA program.

Contrast that with GOAT who spent three years in arguably the best college program in the country. Jordan had three years of Dean Smith...LaVine had one of Alford and two of whoever coached Minny...and now...ugh.

At question is his understanding of winning in the NBA and defense. The two, of course, are related.

LaVine has the tools to be an excellent defender. He needs the coaching, the organization around him, and a bit of maturity to understand it's importance.

He can be a very good defender in three years....about the time the Bulls may be a serious team again. While he can't be guarded, he has some issues with his offense. That, too, can be fixed....in part with better players.

Quick anecdote - I saw LaVine play in the Las Vegas tourney that NU was in back in 2013, and he was clearly the most athletic player on any team there. I didn't know much about UCLA going in but quickly realized that he was a likely one-and-done. He didn't even start for UCLA back then but made some electrifying individual plays when in the game. Your critique makes sense, especially given that he was injured while in Minnesota. There's big upside for Zach if he stays healthy and works hard at all aspects of his game.

 

[evanston09]

I beg to differ. The implied message of your post is that Lavine is a scorer rather than a complete player. I completely disagree and think a careful viewing of the games so far this year bares that out. Lavine is carrying this team and keeping them in games. Without him the Bulls have been losing by 20+. The fact they have not won many overall this year is a reflection of the major injuries they have sustained to other key players, not a reflection of Lavine’s developing all around skills. From your comments I conclude you have not watched the Bulls games very closely this year.

His advanced stats have him as a solidly average player even this year. His box score +/- is negative and his vorp is .1.

When he’s on the court the team’s offensive rating is only .4 points per 100 possessions better than when he’s on the bench, and the team’s defensive rating is 4.4 points worse. In other words, the Bulls have actually been better with him on the bench.

All the data designed to measure these things suggests that he’s not helping the bulls win despite his improvement and efficiency. While I must concede that you have tremendous grit for your willingness to watch a lot of Bulls games, the NBA personnel I know and the data have a different conclusion than you do about his value.

 

[clarificationcat]

His advanced stats have him as a solidly average player even this year. His box score +/- is negative and his vorp is .1.

When he’s on the court the team’s offensive rating is only .4 points per 100 possessions better than when he’s on the bench, and the team’s defensive rating is 4.4 points worse. In other words, the Bulls have actually been better with him on the bench.

All the data designed to measure these things suggests that he’s not helping the bulls win despite his improvement and efficiency. While I must concede that you have tremendous grit for your willingness to watch a lot of Bulls games, the NBA personnel I know and the data have a different conclusion than you do about his value.

He can be a good player on a good team. He is being asked to do too much right now. He should not be the primary scorer and distributor. He turns the ball over way too much. But he's a good outside shooter and can get to the basket and finish. And he can be an average defender if he keeps working at it.

 

[evanston09]

He can be a good player on a good team. He is being asked to do too much right now. He should not be the primary scorer and distributor. He turns the ball over way too much. But he's a good outside shooter and can get to the basket and finish. And he can be an average defender if he keeps working at it.

I think this is entirely reasonable if we’re discussing future expectations.

 

[corbi296]

His advanced stats have him as a solidly average player even this year. His box score +/- is negative and his vorp is .1.

When he’s on the court the team’s offensive rating is only .4 points per 100 possessions better than when he’s on the bench, and the team’s defensive rating is 4.4 points worse. In other words, the Bulls have actually been better with him on the bench.

All the data designed to measure these things suggests that he’s not helping the bulls win despite his improvement and efficiency. While I must concede that you have tremendous grit for your willingness to watch a lot of Bulls games, the NBA personnel I know and the data have a different conclusion than you do about his value.

As mentioned previously by others, there is not enough of a data set to draw definitive conclusions on his play solely on that basis. He came into the League as a green 19 year old and initially played limited minutes for two years on a bad Minnesota team with poor coaching and structure. He missed almost all of the next 2 seasons due to a severe injury. The beginning of this season is the first time he has been a featured player and fully healthy. I really like what I’ve seen from him so far this season even though I acknowledge it’s a small sample size.

 

[evanston09]

As mentioned previously by others, there is not enough of a data set to draw definitive conclusions on his play solely on that basis. He came into the League as a green 19 year old and initially played limited minutes for two years on a bad Minnesota team with poor coaching and structure. He missed almost all of the next 2 seasons due to a severe injury. The beginning of this season is the first time he has been a featured player and fully healthy. I really like what I’ve seen from him so far this season even though I acknowledge it’s a small sample size.

Google translation: “These facts must be wrong since they don’t support my opinion”

 

[corbi296]

Google translation: “These facts must be wrong since they don’t support my opinion”

Maybe you should actually watch a few games and you’ll realize that circumstances have changed for him. How about 29 and 6 assists with only two turnovers the other night leading to a Bulls victory with a supporting cast that resembles the Jackie Moon led Flint Tropics. What I see is a 23 year old who is finally healthy, getting an opportunity to lead a team and blossoming right in front us. I’ll trust what I am seeing with my own eyes over any second hand scouting report relayed on a message board.