OT: Kopp
- Thread starter techtim72
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I know you long for the good old days of Carmody vs. Collins arguments, but I can't help feeling that a conversation about statistics related to people actually playing basketball for Northwestern is a quantum leap forward on this board. It successfully took a really lame and petty conversation about a guy who doesn't play for Northwestern anymore into a conversation about the statistics of guys actually playing for Northwestern. And I don't remember seeing a bunch of Carmody vs. Collins comments!
One of the best ways to counter why a statistic doesn't tell the whole story is to make a compelling argument that other people can build on (potentially with statistics that back up your sense of things.) I'm still looking for an argument that counters PWB's +/- argument that isn't "Beran is obviously an excellent defender."
I don't disagree with you on that. But let's not pretend like whatever stats discussion is happening is complex in any way. We're discussing one stat in a great new(ish) analytics world that is out there.
And does a stats discussion without KenPom really count?
Huh...weren't you complaining about someone's insistence that only one stat matters?
Irony much?
I was busy yesterday but I did watch the game. Some of you will be overjoyed and relieved to know that I won't be posting or calculating the +/- numbers for our game against NJIT. I don't believe there is any value in analyzing performances against outclassed opponents.
As for the rest of it and the obsession of certain individuals with what I post or how I say it, obviously this is the free board and you've spent a lot of time ranting about me personally. Thats your choice. Carry on as you see fit to live your lives.
I will state again... the "+/-" is clearly the most important statistic available when evaluating a team's performance. It tells you which team won the game (duh) and which lineups contributed most to the win or loss. It enables insight into a team that no other statistic can provide. I will continue to report the information as we play our games, so that those who are interested will see it and be able to discuss it.
It really isn't my problem that some people don't like what the numbers are saying.
As for the rest of it and the obsession of certain individuals with what I post or how I say it, obviously this is the free board and you've spent a lot of time ranting about me personally. Thats your choice. Carry on as you see fit to live your lives.
I will state again... the "+/-" is clearly the most important statistic available when evaluating a team's performance. It tells you which team won the game (duh) and which lineups contributed most to the win or loss. It enables insight into a team that no other statistic can provide. I will continue to report the information as we play our games, so that those who are interested will see it and be able to discuss it.
It really isn't my problem that some people don't like what the numbers are saying.
Just so we get the all-important facts straight here before yet another one gets beaten up, there wasn't a single person who has come anywhere to saying stop posting the stats.
But go ahead and play the victim game. You're not the first ridiculously aggressive and repetitive poster to pretend they played no part in a reaction by several people.
Sorry, you have no credibility. I could practically see the foam coming out of your mouth.
Go back and read your posts. Sheer ranting. No regard for the truth or subject matter whatsoever.
I asked you specifically for any statistic to support your claims and you have posted nothing but trash - not one statistic.
Thats on you.
Why do I need to do that when I have you and others for that task? I know you love to come off as the hero for the perceived bullied, but at least go back to blasting me with comments that have a Modicum of truth in them.
Anyway I am done on this topic for now. Even I am getting tired of the nonsensical back and forth. Believe me, it will come out after every game and makes Collins versus Carmody look like a flesh wound to the murder of this topic. So enjoy Mr. Free Speech, we can debate the merits over a frosty.
PS -good read the Jacquez thread and conclude I am not taking on Corbi.
Said the guy who posted, "Any advanced statistics (as you describe them) that say Greer played poorly against Maryland are badly flawed."
Why don't you look at how many people are telling me to stop when I'm admittedly acting like a total ass.
Sure, my credibility has taken a real hit here.
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In 2006 (I was unemployed and living in my parents’ basement, for real!), the year Vedran and Alando Tucker were neck and neck for the scoring title, I watched a few games with a notebook and pen and posted +/- after the final whistle. I got a lot of THIS IS DUMBs. And while it wasn’t dumb, at least for the reason I was getting THIS IS DUMBs, what is dumb is that I’ve now spent 16 years on this board.
My relationship with Smithee is almost certainly longer than 95% of non-familial relationships that I currently have.
This went deep.
My relationship with Smithee is almost certainly longer than 95% of non-familial relationships that I currently have.
This went deep.
Any advanced statistic that says Ryan Greer played badly against Maryland is badly flawed. There is no doubt about that. He was +15 in a game we won by 6.
How can you think otherwise? You are wrong and you keep reinforcing that fact.
Post any stat that says Greer played badly against Maryland and let me tell you why it is flawed.
Please.
I was really hoping Sec 112 would post what he was referring to, but since you stepped in for him, which of those do you think indicates Greer played badly against Maryland. And why?
Since Cappy is nicer than me and put his numbers out there for your silly ass, here are mine also. That's two sources for you that generally say the same thing. In fact, mine is more complimentary of Greer.
Don't bother asking me why since you as Mr. Facts can't even get the original statement correct. The statement was not that he played "bad." The statement was, "Want to see the advanced stats that say Greer was mediocre (at best!!) against Maryland, and there were much better options who had a higher usage percentage?"
Yes, there were better options who had a much higher user percentage. But I'm sure the two sources with negative BPMs won't be enough.
Now go ahead and spin away.
Don't bother asking me why since you as Mr. Facts can't even get the original statement correct. The statement was not that he played "bad." The statement was, "Want to see the advanced stats that say Greer was mediocre (at best!!) against Maryland, and there were much better options who had a higher usage percentage?"
Yes, there were better options who had a much higher user percentage. But I'm sure the two sources with negative BPMs won't be enough.
Now go ahead and spin away.
| MP | TS% | eFG% | USG% | ORtg | DRtg | BPM | |
| Buie | 33 | 0.442 | 0.367 | 32.8 | 86 | 89 | -1 |
| Nance | 31 | 0.654 | 0.654 | 24.8 | 113 | 80 | 10.5 |
| Audige | 26 | 0.412 | 0.412 | 35.5 | 88 | 83 | 5.5 |
| Beran | 26 | 0.667 | 0.667 | 11.8 | 125 | 83 | 5.4 |
| Berry | 16 | 0.5 | 0.5 | 16 | 54 | 81 | -3.9 |
| Greer | 18 | 0.347 | 0 | 11.1 | 65 | 90 | -3.1 |
| Roper | 14 | 0 | 0 | 3.7 | 0 | 73 | 2 |
| Williams | 13 | 1.25 | 1.25 | 11.8 | 136 | 78 | 13.9 |
| Simmons | 12 | 0 | 0 | 8.6 | 24 | 69 | 4.4 |
| Young | 11 | 0.333 | 0.333 | 14 | 91 | 82 | 0.4 |
| Nicholson | 0 | -2 | |||||
| Totals | 200 | 0.498 | 0.476 | 100 | 89.3 | 81.3 |
This was my statement...
"Any advanced statistics (as you describe them) that say Greer played poorly against Maryland are badly flawed."
You repeated it several times and mocked me for writing it. Don't try to deny it now. Don't lie about it. That was my statement.
If you are changing your tune now to something reasonable, we can stop.
Otherwise tell me which of those stats is your best example of why you think Greer played badly against Maryland.
I will help you with one - if a guy goes 0 for 2 from the floor, that doesnt mean he played badly. Players miss their first two shots about 25% of the time. So I'll assume you aren't pointing at eFG%.
Man I love these nerdy statistics battles. I always like the stuff @CappyNU posts. Glad to see @Sec.112 and @PurpleWhiteBoy go at it. Carry on boys!
CCC played him too many minutes last season.
should have been grooming Nicholson for that third string center role.
Seems to me that he is getting more attention now on this board than he did when he was on the team
We agree! sort of.
What is striking about last year's minutes is
1. Kopp played so much
2. The lineups we used without Kopp were outscored 291 - 213. Just grotesque.
3. This year's starting lineup (Nance, Beran, Buie, Audige, Berry) almost never played together last year, despite all 5 guys being in the rotation. A whopping total of 11 minutes and 48 seconds spread over 20 games.
My conclusion? CCC just couldn't get enough of Miller Kopp!
Feel free to draw your own conclusions.
So we're just going to blow off another fact, multiple sources and move on to your agenda.
And I'm lying. Great.
Before you start passing judgement, you might want to consider how you've been playing in the sandbox ... for months. At least I've only posted like an a&s*h#le for a few days. (And a few other spurts for you longtime fans
.)When you want to show a little respect for the facts you supposedly cherish, other opinions and something besides your sermon, I'll give you the respect of an answer to your games. Otherwise, I'm done.
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Not sure what you are talking about.So we're just going to blow off another fact, multiple sources and move on to your agenda.
And I'm lying. Great.
Before you start passing judgement, you might want to consider how you've been playing in the sandbox ... for months. At least I've only posted like an a&s*h#le for a few days. (And a few other spurts for you longtime fans
When you want to show a little respect for the facts you supposedly cherish, other opinions and something besides your sermon, I'll give you the respect of an answer to your games. Otherwise, I'm done.
What I wrote is crystal clear.
Any stat that says Greer played poorly against Maryland is badly flawed. You seem to have backed off on your opposition. Great.
I don't treat others with disdain unless they do so first. Some of you guys cross the line all the time.
My "offense" is posting what I believe, backing it up with some numbers and then re-stating it from time to time. Most of the time I present new information in a similar way and "the usual suspects" can't pick up on the differences or are just adamantly opposed to anything I post. Luckily there are plenty of folks on here who are more open-minded.
As I have stated before, I am not here to make enemies. I would ask that you read what I write with a little more courtesy, that you not go ballistic when I criticize the coach or resort to mocking when I point out something that seems to be revealed in some of the statistics.
I agree DaCat
I've kept an eye out on Kopp, Ryan and Joe Bamisile, just to see how highly rated guys we recruited hard pan out. None of these guys have lived up to the hype. I think Kopp and Ryan are probably solid players but nothing special. I think Ty Berry is a comparable replacement for Kopp, more athletic and maybe better. Ryan is a floor general like Greer but taller. Doesn't score much but is solid. I like Boo better. Bamilsile transferred to George Washington (253 kenpom) but does not light up the stat sheet in that league. He is Chase Audige like but does not score or defend as well.
Maybe this is sour grapes, but we have done fine with out them.
The only one we really missed out on was when we took Kopp over Sadiq Bey. Bey would have been helpful.
I've kept an eye out on Kopp, Ryan and Joe Bamisile, just to see how highly rated guys we recruited hard pan out. None of these guys have lived up to the hype. I think Kopp and Ryan are probably solid players but nothing special. I think Ty Berry is a comparable replacement for Kopp, more athletic and maybe better. Ryan is a floor general like Greer but taller. Doesn't score much but is solid. I like Boo better. Bamilsile transferred to George Washington (253 kenpom) but does not light up the stat sheet in that league. He is Chase Audige like but does not score or defend as well.
Maybe this is sour grapes, but we have done fine with out them.
The only one we really missed out on was when we took Kopp over Sadiq Bey. Bey would have been helpful.
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+/- is interesting but it's the kind of stat that enables guys like Greg Ostertag to look good.
Cuz that’s what we do. We take recruits and excel them beyond their projected expectations…
Yes. EXACTLY.
The kind of stat that tells you who to play if you want to win.
a 7'2" 280 lbs rim protector for Kansas...
Ostertag was a late first round NBA pick in 1995.
He played 10 seasons in the NBA for the Utah Jazz, 750 games, 20 minutes a night.
Because the team played better when he was on the floor.
Ostertag was reincarnated as a basketball player when he retired to a ranch in Texas. He came back to the hardcourt as Matt Nicholson.
