OT Lebron James is the best that has ever played

[Gladeskat]

MJ missed plenty of final shots. He is know for the ones he hit but he missed his share as well. So this criticism of LBJ is unwarranted. That said, on that shot, he was camped out in the lane for like 5-7 seconds before he tried to take that shot. Yes he was fouled but should have been called for 3 seconds long before the shot and not sure 24 second clock had not run out as well.

The 24 second clock is automatic. A horn goes off. It was a poor shot. Again, he was double and triple teamed and the Warriors were well aware of the passing lanes, so he had to toss something up. I don't care for this style of basketball at all (isolation and pick and roll stuff) versus working for an uncontested shot via passing. It's amazing that LBJ has gotten it to work so well in one year with the Cavs, but his passing out of drawing double teams is what enables it to work.

 

[Gladeskat]

Agree with a lot of what you say, Glades, but the Cavs didn't really make their shots in Game 2. They shot sub 33% from the field, so there wasn't much shot-making happening. Instead, they won the game with incredible defense, strong rebounding, and a deliberate offense that limited the number of possessions. With those limited possessions, LBJ's number of shots nullified the impact of Irving and Love not being there to diversify the offense (and the impact of JR Smith being a bonehead.)

I don't know if it's Blatt or Lebron calling the coaching shots, but they are good shots giving the Cavs a chance when they really shouldn't have one.

Very true. One of the heroes for the Cavs in this playoff run besides LBJ is Thompson's awesome defense and offensive rebounding. He's been amazing and has perhaps more than made up for the loss of Love. Nobody can make up for the loss of Irving. If they can get the kind of shooting from Shumpart, JRSmith, and Jones like they had in the Atlanta series and LBJ can start hitting his 3's at a decent rate, then they might pull it off. Curry is not going to go 2 for 15 in the next 3-5 games.

Yes, JR Smith needs a brain injection. Slapping at Curry in the backcourt when you're trying to close out a game is just unacceptable.

 

[hdhntr1]

The 24 second clock is automatic. A horn goes off. It was a poor shot. Again, he was double and triple teamed and the Warriors were well aware of the passing lanes, so he had to toss something up. I don't care for this style of basketball at all (isolation and pick and roll stuff) versus working for an uncontested shot via passing. It's amazing that LBJ has gotten it to work so well in one year with the Cavs, but his passing out of drawing double teams is what enables it to work.

It was called for 24 seconds as I recall. Just not sure if it would have been before the foul. When they did the replay they were too busy concentrating on other things. That said, 3 seconds should have been called long before the foul occurred and there was no way it should have been missed because he was the one with the ball. In the end it worked out correctly that GS was awarded the ball even if it was for the wrong reason.

 

[Gladeskat]

OK, I recall the play and what you're saying here. My recollection is that the 24 second clock expired AFTER LBJ's errant shot (in part because of a foul), but I'd have to see it again to be certain of that. There was a good case for a 3-second violation, but I doubt that would be called in such a situation.

 

[hdhntr1]

OK, I recall the play and what you're saying here. My recollection is that the 24 second clock expired AFTER LBJ's errant shot (in part because of a foul), but I'd have to see it again to be certain of that. There was a good case for a 3-second violation, but I doubt that would be called in such a situation.

He dribbled into the lane and was camped out there with both feet in the lane for what seemed like an eternity. He tried at least 3 or 4 fakes and I got to about 1000 and six before he attempted the shot. Sorry but with the ball in his hands, that is usually called. Guy without the ball might be missed but the guy with the ball should not be. Not when it was that blatant and that important to the game. Just saying it worked out properly even if it was for the wrong reason. Heck he could have even been called for a 5 second delay in the college game. Less sure of the rules on that in the pros. Just saying it was that blatant and in the end, he right team got the ball, just for the wrong reason.

 

[Gladeskat]

Good luck getting a three second violation call at the end of a close NBA Finals game. The refs don't even make calls when players are hacked right in front of the refs at crunch time.

 

[hdhntr1]

Good luck getting a three second violation call at the end of a close NBA Finals game. The refs don't even make calls when players are hacked right in front of the refs at crunch time.

If it is close, like 3.5 or even 4 seconds, I agree but this was far beyond that. Just saying in the end, it worked out correctly even if for the wrong reason and I am OK with that.

 

[hollandnucat]

Lebron going into last nights game was shooting under 40% in this years final. Jordan in all 3 of the first 3 championships shot over 50% including when he averaged 41 points a game against Phoenix. They are not in the same league when it comes to carrying a team offensively in their primes.

 

[beetlemania74]

Lebron going into last nights game was shooting under 40% in this years final. Jordan in all 3 of the first 3 championships shot over 50% including when he averaged 41 points a game against Phoenix. They are not in the same league when it comes to carrying a team offensively in their primes.

Not exactly a fair comparison, given the guys LeBron is playing with right now. I bet his shooting percentage would be higher if Kyrie and Kevin were still playing. He basically has no one else on that team right now who can be given the ball and expected to score. On the post-game last night, Doug Collins said he texted his son (presumably Chris) during the 4th quarter and asked him if he thought anyone on the Cavs other than LeBron would score the rest of the way, and his son replied no. What the heck is LeBron supposed to do with this cast of misfits? I feel sorry for the guy, really. Top to bottom, Golden State is a far more talented team, and they've now made the adjustments necessary to win.

 

[Walker Fan]

In the NBA's Eastern Conference, Lebron himself can beat the other teams, because the conference was historically bad. In the Western Conference , I believe that Warriors, Spurs, Clippers, Grizzlies, and Rockets would have beaten the Cavs as presently constituted. And all of this LBJ v. MJ would never have surfaced. The more apt argument in my opinion is to look at the past 10 years and weigh James v. his contemporaries. Kobe and Duncan were players that played v. James and match up with James in more recent games. In fact, Duncan was 2-1 in NBA finals v. Lebron and, but for, a Ray Allen circus three in Game 6 would have been 3-0 v. James. But he will never get his due because he never shot the ball 30+ times in a NBA finals' game.

 

[Gladeskat]

In the NBA's Eastern Conference, Lebron himself can beat the other teams, because the conference was historically bad. In the Western Conference , I believe that Warriors, Spurs, Clippers, Grizzlies, and Rockets would have beaten the Cavs as presently constituted. And all of this LBJ v. MJ would never have surfaced. The more apt argument in my opinion is to look at the past 10 years and weigh James v. his contemporaries. Kobe and Duncan were players that played v. James and match up with James in more recent games. In fact, Duncan was 2-1 in NBA finals v. Lebron and, but for, a Ray Allen circus three in Game 6 would have been 3-0 v. James. But he will never get his due because he never shot the ball 30+ times in a NBA finals' game.

So you equate Duncan with LBJ? A center/forward who can't dribble, run an offense, or shoot threes is better than a guy who can do it all and do it well? Duncan could have been 3-0 against LBJ if not for Duncan missing a 'bunny' in crunch time. Duncan is a great player, but he has benefitted tremendously from playing with 4 Hall of Famer's and the best coach in the NBA

Sheesh, has this argument gone off the rails. Players have to be evaluated on their own merits as players. Otherwise, you join those 'basketball purists' who make fools of themselves claiming Bill Russell was a better center than Wilt.

 

[hollandnucat]

Not exactly a fair comparison, given the guys LeBron is playing with right now. I bet his shooting percentage would be higher if Kyrie and Kevin were still playing. He basically has no one else on that team right now who can be given the ball and expected to score. On the post-game last night, Doug Collins said he texted his son (presumably Chris) during the 4th quarter and asked him if he thought anyone on the Cavs other than LeBron would score the rest of the way, and his son replied no. What the heck is LeBron supposed to do with this cast of misfits? I feel sorry for the guy, really. Top to bottom, Golden State is a far more talented team, and they've now made the adjustments necessary to win.

Jordan in 1986 did not have much offensive support and still shot over 50% against a great Celtic team. If you need someone to carry the scoring load there is no question in my mind.

 

[Styre]

Jordan in 1986 did not have much offensive support and still shot over 50% against a great Celtic team. If you need someone to carry the scoring load there is no question in my mind.

If you are watching this series and doubt LeBron's ability to "carry the scoring load" you should stop watching basketball. Right now he should win Finals MVP even if they lose the series.

 

[hollandnucat]

I never stated that Lebron was not able to "carry the scoring load" (obviously he can). All I have stated is that Lebron is not the scorer that Michael was in his prime. I also feel that Lebron should not win Finals MVP if the Cavs lose the series 4 to 2. He would definitely deserve it if the Cavs somehow pulled the series off. I just get frustrated when people call Lebron's performance in this finals as the greatest individual performance ever (this is highly debatable as there have been many great performances) when a guy is jacking up 30 plus shots and shooting at such a low percentage (not saying you don't want him shooting that much on this team as they are out of options).

 

[hdhntr1]

I never stated that Lebron was not able to "carry the scoring load" (obviously he can). All I have stated is that Lebron is not the scorer that Michael was in his prime. I also feel that Lebron should not win Finals MVP if the Cavs lose the series 4 to 2. He would definitely deserve it if the Cavs somehow pulled the series off. I just get frustrated when people call Lebron's performance in this finals as the greatest individual performance ever (this is highly debatable as there have been many great performances) when a guy is jacking up 30 plus shots and shooting at such a low percentage (not saying you don't want him shooting that much on this team as they are out of options).

LBJ is a different kind or player than MJ. He has averaged a triple double scoring about 40 points a game. If LBJ was not there, this series would have been 4-0. Who do you feel deserves MVP if not LBJ? No one else stands out as being anywhere close. No one is shooting for average in this series.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Lebron shoots sub 40% again in 33 attempts. Say what you want, he's not a steller shooter...certainly not good enough to be shooting 30+ shots a night. Both Thompson and Mosgov could have used the ball more last night.

Also, good call giving Iggy the MVP. He turned around the series when inserted in the starting linup.

 

[hollandnucat]

Virginia I agree 100%. Lebron is a great player but not a great shooter. Glad Iggy got the MVP.

 

[beetlemania74]

Virginia I agree 100%. Lebron is a great player but not a great shooter. Glad Iggy got the MVP.

Amazing that we're talking about a guy 6'8", 250lbs, and criticizing him for not being "a great shooter". A generation ago, a guy that size was just a banger in the paint, ala Charles Oakley. Now, he's expected to also be a premier shooter like S. Curry or R. Miller. Dude had 18 rebounds and 9 assists last night...almost another triple double. And yet he's at fault because he shot the ball too much, as if more T. Thompson and T. Mosgov was the answer to the Cavs' shooting problems? Maybe the Cavs would have won last night if LeBron had made more of his 3-pointers and free throws. He missed a bunch, yes. But he also once again played nearly the entire game (47 minutes!), and the guy's human. You take that much physical wear and tear, and it affects your shooting. It happens.

I've never been a huge LeBron defender, but the criticism now is absurd. The team he had around him for most of the Finals was mediocre at best. Give him a healthy team next year in the playoffs and see what he can do.

 

[Styre]

LeBron: 36/13/9
Iggy: 16/6/4

Clearly Iguodala was the better player.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

His size doesn't matter. He shot 40% taking nearly every shot. That's not a recipe for success, and it clearly showed.

 

[shakes3858]

I've never been a huge LeBron defender, but the criticism now is absurd. The team he had around him for most of the Finals was mediocre at best. Give him a healthy team next year in the playoffs and see what he can do.

Lebron James is great. He can do amazing things with and without the basketball in his hands. His vision on the court may be second only to Magic. The guy is incredible. Anyone that denies he is insanely talented is insane.

The problem is that he is constantly comparing himself to the greatest players of all-time. He made a Mount Rushmore of the NBA (leaving out Russell) and then said he was going to be one of the greatest 4 of all time. He most recently called himself "The best player in the world." While probably true, that's the type of thing I'm used to hearing from pro wrestler CM Punk, not an NBA player. As such, you have to compare him to the NBA's greatest of all time. That's Jordan (6), Russell (11), Magic (5), Bird (3), Wilt (2), Kareem (6), Duncan (5), Kobe (5).

Putting Lebron in that context before his career is either over or soon to be over isn't fair, but again, Lebron did it to himself. Lebron's playoff record against non-teams that-made-the-playoffs-because-the-eastern-conference-is-brutal is (Celtics with their big three and the west) is really not good at all. As such, he deserves the criticism for not being as good as the guys I listed, which really that much of an insult.

 

[Medill90]

Lebron James is great. He can do amazing things with and without the basketball in his hands. His vision on the court may be second only to Magic. The guy is incredible. Anyone that denies he is insanely talented is insane.

The problem is that he is constantly comparing himself to the greatest players of all-time. He made a Mount Rushmore of the NBA (leaving out Russell) and then said he was going to be one of the greatest 4 of all time. He most recently called himself "The best player in the world." While probably true, that's the type of thing I'm used to hearing from pro wrestler CM Punk, not an NBA player. As such, you have to compare him to the NBA's greatest of all time. That's Jordan (6), Russell (11), Magic (5), Bird (3), Wilt (2), Kareem (6), Duncan (5), Kobe (5).

Putting Lebron in that context before his career is either over or soon to be over isn't fair, but again, Lebron did it to himself. Lebron's playoff record against non-teams that-made-the-playoffs-because-the-eastern-conference-is-brutal is (Celtics with their big three and the west) is really not good at all. As such, he deserves the criticism for not being as good as the guys I listed, which really that much of an insult.

I would take Lebron over Wilt and Kobe....and maybe even Kareem.

But it's close to impossible to compare these different player types from different eras. Saw a Doug Collins interview in the Spring and he expressed regret for not playing in this era when strength, conditioning and nutrition happen 12 months out of the year.

Lebron is a physical freak.

Other than the dumb comments about being a global brand, I get the sense he's a pretty decent guy.

I hope for Cleveland he brings them a championship in the next couple of years.

It sure as shit isn't going to happen for my Bulls.

 

[beetlemania74]

His size doesn't matter. He shot 40% taking nearly every shot. That's not a recipe for success, and it clearly showed.

Who the heck else was supposed to take those shots? The commentators were saying that he should be more selfish and not pass the ball so much. He was trying very hard, particularly in the first half, to involve his teammates more on offense. He had 9 of his team's 14 assists! Dellavedova, the "scrappy" point guard, had 2 assists and 1 point. So much for that feel good story.

LeBron led the Cavs last night not only in scoring, but also in assists, rebounds, and steals. Think about that. It's a reflection of the fact that he had very limited resources around him. T. Thompson and Mozgov do a good job of grabbing rebounds but aren't much on offense. The rest of the team was worse. And they were basically down to a seven man rotation because of the injuries. So I ask again, who else on that team was supposed to be taking all the shots? Of course, this situation wasn't a "recipe for success", and LeBron mentioned as much afterwards when he pointed out that he shouldn't the one responsible be dishing out over half his team's assists. This Finals team was built to have Irving and Love on the floor with him.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Iggy played fantastic defense on Lebron all series. Did Lebron score? Sure. But Iggy refused to let him penetrate, forcing Lebron to shoot outside after outside shot every night, to which we've all established is not his strength. As the series wore on, and the Lebron Show continued, each subsequent game saw his teammates began to grow less involved in the offense as the entire arena was fully aware who was going take the shot. GS was more than happy to allow Lebron to launch perimeter shots every time down the floor as they knew they wouldn't get beat that way. Iggy's defense and timely offense changed the tone of the series and ultimately led to a GS championship...

 

[Styre]

The Warriors knew they could win a war of attrition with the Cavs, so they let Iguodala wear down James and pulled away in 4th quarters. Iguodala was arguably the biggest reason for the Warriors' success, and as such I don't have a problem with him winning MVP.

All that said, however, the best player on the floor every night was LeBron James and it wasn't particularly close. Unfortunately for him, he was essentially playing 1-on-5 for 5/6 of the series after Irving went down. That he won two games basically by himself over a 67-win team is damned impressive.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Don't think he was playing defense by himself, nor rebounding by himself.

 

[Gladeskat]

His size doesn't matter. He shot 40% taking nearly every shot. That's not a recipe for success, and it clearly showed.

I think LeBron would agree with you, too. The Cavs need other shooters besides LeBron to diversify the offense. I think LBJ did what he had to do given the situation, though. He readily admitted that he doesn't care for this style of play.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Interesting viewpoint.

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

 

[Gladeskat]

Interesting viewpoint.

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

I think that's silly. The NBA is a star-driven league and coaches do need to pay attention to what their star players want to run in given situations. Lebron is the best player in the league, and he'd gotten the team to the FInals without two stars. Heck, Magic Johnson had a coach (Paul Westhead) fired because he didn't care for his offensive coaching. On the other hand, Popovich is certainly an exception and he's the best coach in the NBA, IMO.

 

[shakes3858]

Interesting viewpoint.

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

Lebron has never really respected his coach:
Paul Silas was ran out mid season when the Cavs were over .531. New coach Brendan Malone .444 and missed the playoffs.

Mike Brown: It's been well established (by ESPN and the like, which I don't really trust, but we'll go with it here) that Brown allowed Lebron to do whatever he wanted out of fear of losing him. Brown got pushed out in 2010 hoping that a new coach would keep Lebron around when it came to the decision.

Erik Spoelstra never had control of the team. It was Reilly from one end and Lebron from the other.

David Blatt: Lebron is yelling at him and demanding he does different things in game.

Lebron keeps getting weak personalities as his head coach... but the funny thing is he more or less gets to pick his head coach or run him out of town if he doesn't like him. He doesn't show respect to the coach, doesn't learn from the coach, doesn't accept the coach's system. Maybe if Lebron allowed a coach to coach he wouldn't have such a bad team around himself.

 

[EvanstonCat]

You know, some people think that Jordan was the greatest player of all time *and* that Pippen was a worthy Hall of Famer. Most people, actually.

Does that make me not-entitled to my opinion that Pippen was a B to B+ player and nowhere near the top 50 all time that people make him out to be. Most people have been wrong about lots of things for lots of years.



You mean the game they lost by 19 points while shooting 25% as a team with Paxson on the bench with an ankle injury? Where Horace Grant was 3-17 from the floor? Hodges was 3-13? Armstrong 1-8? Blaming that loss on Pippen is stupid -- the whole team save Jordan played like crap.

I'm referring to the game were Pippen went 1-10 and scored 2 points. If Pippen was a great player and Jordan had a great game, then the game should've been reasonable. P



Well also according to Jalen Rose, Jordan wasn't "poisoned" before that game...

Ok... Jordan was poisoned or not poison... he had the flu or didn't have the flu. Maybe he had "flu like symptoms." He pulled out a game for the ages that will be talked about decades. That's why he's the GOAT.

I actually have to agree with Shakes here. We saw Pippen without Jordan in the two years Jordan was retired, and then we saw him on the Houston Rockets. That was what Pippen was. HOF'er? Questionable.

Jordan was the GOAT. He won every finals series he ever played in. He did not win his rings with a player-stacked Miami team that challenges the notion of fair play (you remember those a-holes who tried to do this in pick up - just like in RL, such teams get their asses handed to them as often as not. He didn't lose any rings with such a team either. Two years away from the game just means 2 more rings he would have won. I hate Turk for starting this damned thread. It's offensive to the GOAT that this is even a debate.

 

[Styre]

I actually have to agree with Shakes here. We saw Pippen without Jordan in the two years Jordan was retired, and then we saw him on the Houston Rockets. That was what Pippen was.

One of the best players in the NBA, and then, with Houston, on the downside of his career? Man, what an indictment. Nobody else in the Hall of Fame ever got old.

He did not win his rings with a player-stacked Miami team that challenges the notion of fair play

LOL at the idea that the second Bulls three-peat wasn't "player-stacked." Jordan/Pippen/Rodman >>> James/Wade/Bosh. And their supporting cast was better, to boot. That's why they won 72 games in '96. But I guess because Miami acquired players in free agency that wanted to play together (OH NO!) they were challenging the notion of fair play.

I also think Jordan was the greatest player of all time. I just don't share the need to crap all over everyone else.

 

[hdhntr1]

I actually have to agree with Shakes here. We saw Pippen without Jordan in the two years Jordan was retired, and then we saw him on the Houston Rockets. That was what Pippen was. HOF'er? Questionable.

Jordan was the GOAT. He won every finals series he ever played in. He did not win his rings with a player-stacked Miami team that challenges the notion of fair play (you remember those a-holes who tried to do this in pick up - just like in RL, such teams get their asses handed to them as often as not. He didn't lose any rings with such a team either. Two years away from the game just means 2 more rings he would have won. I hate Turk for starting this damned thread. It's offensive to the GOAT that this is even a debate.

I am not sure what you expect. When Jordan went on vacation for a couple years, he led them to the playoffs and had his highest production of his career. Was he the scorer that Jordan was? No but when have you seen that out of a small forward playing point. And his D put him over the top. It was his overall game that made him great. His line those years? About 21-21 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 5. APG, 2.9 SPG and 1 bpg. That is pretty solid. In the small forward category, he is number 5 with rarified company behind James, Bird, Baylor and Dr J as the only ones higher ranked. And at that, his D (where he was tops) exceeded most if not all of those. Top 5 at a position all time is a HOF'er. Want someone else to compare him to? Luol Deng. Stats of Deng don't come close.

He was in Houston for only part of one season but that said, he was already 34-35 years old and the only stat that was down were his points scored and that was because he wasn't taking as many shots. % were still about the same.

You want to look at Pippen without Jordan but how about looking at Jordan without Pippen. You know how many playoff series he won without Pippen? None. How many playoff games? Maybe one and I am not sure of that (was the first round in 85 a 5 or 7 game series) . Pippen won playoff games and series without Jordan but Jordan did not win without Pippen. I am not saying that Jordan was not a great player or a better scorer than Pippen but Pippen was a top 5 SF of all time, a legitimate HOF'er and top 50 player of all time in his own right. While offensively others might shine brighter, on D he was a game changer and one of the best to ever play.

 

[clarificationcat]

I am not sure what you expect. When Jordan went on vacation for a couple years, he led them to the playoffs and had his highest production of his career. Was he the scorer that Jordan was? No but when have you seen that out of a small forward playing point. And his D put him over the top. It was his overall game that made him great. His line those years? About 21-21 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 5. APG, 2.9 SPG and 1 bpg. That is pretty solid. In the small forward category, he is number 5 with rarified company behind James, Bird, Baylor and Dr J as the only ones higher ranked. And at that, his D (where he was tops) exceeded most if not all of those. Top 5 at a position all time is a HOF'er. Want someone else to compare him to? Luol Deng. Stats of Deng don't come close.

He was in Houston for only part of one season but that said, he was already 34-35 years old and the only stat that was down were his points scored and that was because he wasn't taking as many shots. % were still about the same.

You want to look at Pippen without Jordan but how about looking at Jordan without Pippen. You know how many playoff series he won without Pippen? None. How many playoff games? Maybe one and I am not sure of that (was the first round in 85 a 5 or 7 game series) . Pippen won playoff games and series without Jordan but Jordan did not win without Pippen. I am not saying that Jordan was not a great player or a better scorer than Pippen but Pippen was a top 5 SF of all time, a legitimate HOF'er and top 50 player of all time in his own right. While offensively others might shine brighter, on D he was a game changer and one of the best to ever play.

 

[hdhntr1]

Wow! You can really selectively read a post. How about Daley saying that Pippen was his second best player? Did he have an agenda?

I am done arguing. I will trust what I saw, the statistical analysis and the opinions of people that know a hell of lot more about basketball than you. You trust what you saw. By the way, how many playoff games did Jordan win without Pippen?

Maybe one in 1985. They played 4 playoff games that year and not sure if the first round was best out of 5 or 7. He did not win another playoff game without Pippen