OT: Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Huge Mistake (Atlantic)
- Thread starter NUCat320
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Just like most addictions, people are the issue and they want someone else to control it for them.
My favorites are all the “I liked gambling when it was just your local neighborhood thumb breaking illegal bookie, but now that it’s a legal and above board entertainment enterprise I’m not so sure”
Goes to show people don’t actually think rationally about things, they just view something as seedy or untoward and therefore should be illegal. But only a LITTLE seedy so should be tolerated on the black market. No actual rational thought, just vibes.
That's Progressivism in a nutshell: good vibes and good intentions, followed by craptastic ineffectual policy that just makes things worse.
Don’t worry I have been told my life will suddenly be much much better after November if this year.
Isn't that rational?
You may not agree with the thought process, but it is completely logical.
When big money swoops in to profit from human weakness, there will definitely be casualties. Not advocating either way, but governments should step in when the societal impact is too negative.
The government does the exact opposite. They promote gambling with Lotteries in nearly every state and Nationally. What people should be irritated with is the government use of the revenues gained by gambling. We were told our taxes would decrease with the influx of revenue, our schools would get better, the infrastructure would approve. There are insane taxes on things that are considered negative to society, tobacco, liquor, etc. As Roger Waters would say, “Mother should I trust the government “.
I think the point is that it’s not just ‘vibes’.
It’s usability professionals and market researchers and ad agencies and leagues and teams maximizing the dopamine kick of placing a bet so that customers maximize losses.
When you went to Vegas to lose, or when you worried about whether Big Johnny’s toughs were gonna break your freakin’ legs, there was friction in the process that made it tough to lose a lot. That friction is being reduced every day.
It’s okay if you simply believe that an increase in bankruptcies and domestic violence is fine, whatever, screw the weak-willed and those that live with them, but the real actual data that the article reports on shows that it’s not ‘vibes’.
The point is that there is no policy right now. The policy was “take off the guardrails.” It’s reasonable, less then a decade in, to determine whether policy is necessary.
Well the whole concept being proposed by some is aligned with regulation of the industry. Government is the regulator. I am not sure how you discuss the topic without bringing in the government enforcement and ability to regulate which on other “sin” topics have been less than successful.
I don't think of the lotteries as gambling per se - it obviously isn't "sports wagering" - but your complaints are valid.
State-run lotteries are essentially a tax on ignorance most of the time.
The main problem with our system of government is that no one is incentivized to be fiscally responsible.
In fact, politicians are incentivized to be fiscally irresponsible.
Yes, government has a role in the conversation, but it is possible to talk about government without juvenile, and quite ignorant generalizations about political philosophies and snarky comments about the upcoming election. That is when government crosses into politics, complete with the same tone and disrespect that makes people generally hate talking about politics.
Let's make sure we're clear. Government is often incentivized (or better yet, forced) to be fiscally responsible. I have a government job and I absolutely can't spend past my budget. However, you are right that politicians aren't necessarily incentivized to be fiscally responsible.
I've often said that we have a terrible system where we allow our government to be run by politicians, but I can't think of a better way to do it.
Your clarifications are correct. I was writing about legislators and executive branch - the politicians.
It is probably heresy to some, but we need more than two political parties.
Instead we're saddled with entrenched extremists on both sides who prioritize their uncompromising agendas (and themselves) ahead of the nation.
The first flaw to correct is to allocate the federal House of Representatives based on percentage of the vote for each party in each state.
This would enable minor political parties to establish a foothold in the largest states and go from there.
Of course, the two existing parties will never allow it - as the money pours in and they enrich themselves fighting the same stupid battles eternally, backed almost entirely by corporations and wealthy donors.
It’s very clear which side of the political spectrum pretty much every frequent poster lies on. So, this scope creep you talk about happens all the time. When I see people complain about the “ignorant” or “snarky” comments it is always misaligned with the complainers beliefs. Hardly a surprise. The political system has worked pretty well in this country up until the last couple of decades. Now it is about winning and towing the party line even if that isn’t what the people want. There are so many lies from all sides and promises that will never be kept that it nauseates a bunch of people. Hence, don’t like to talk about it.
Career politicians are rarely a good thing, but this countries best and brightest would never subject themselves to the scrutiny and abuse that comes with being a public figure. The political commercials make me sick, but I hope people in this board are smart enough to make their own opinions without being influenced by you or me.
I don't disagree with that statement personally, but I will point out that this PARTICULAR issue doesn't much follow a standard left-right divide and you will find plenty of small-c-conservative change averse pearl clutchers in both parties on this particular issue.
That at hardball politics. We have a decent number of Republicans in MN who religiously oppose gambling and a decent number of Dems who oppose it based on what you're describing, but the big reason is the native tribes have a permanent gambling monopoly and are decisively powerful Dem funders. They haven't been able to iron out a final structure they like yet, so it's blocked cold. Very very close for a couple years now after a few years of hard opposition though.
I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on this. While there are things about the two party system that are maddening, I also see other countries with multiple parties forming coalitions once elected. In a sense, you could argue that our system just forces them to build their coalitions before the election. But again, I would be open to hearing arguments for changing our two-party system.
Gambling is a source of revenue for state governments, and money has only one color.
Speaking of Gambling, Charlie Hustle should be in the HOF
Perhaps FanDuel can sponsor the moment of silence at ballparks tomorrow.
(Shouldn’t lack of personal responsibility or self-control be penalized, particularly when it pertains to the one rule posted in every single clubhouse?)
I wish @AdamOnFirst had responded to my very clear explanation that the discussion is *not* actually about vibes.
I also wish @Hungry Jack had responded to my statement that the current situation has nothing to do with ‘Progressivism’, being that there’s no current “craptastic ineffectual” policy in place. Perhaps good policy is worth a shot here?
Oh well. 😢
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He's an interesting case.
John Dowd did the 1989 MLB investigation...
"There were documents submitted to Dowd that included detailed evidence of bets placed by Rose. In his depositions, Rose denied ever betting on baseball and blasted those who claimed otherwise... Dowd said he found Janszen's testimony to be "worthy of belief" when it was paired with matching testimony of others, betting sheets, Jaszens' records and other recorded phone records and conversations."
(In other words, they had Rose dead to rights and he simply denied all the evidence against him.)
"On Aug. 24, 1989, Rose officially signed an agreement with Giamatti declaring him permanently ineligible from baseball. In exchange, there was no formal declaration made whether Rose bet on baseball."
"It wasn't until years later, in his 2004 book, "My Prison Without Bars," that Rose would admit he bet not only on baseball, but on the Reds."
In 2015 a notebook of Rose's bets previously seized in an FBI raid became public, showing the scale and frequency of his bets. That notebook proved that Rose bet on games in which he was playing.
Under MLB Rule 21, "Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible."
Pete Rose's gambling scandal, explained: Why MLB's hits king is banned for betting on baseball | Sporting News
Rose has more hits than anyone in baseball history, and he accomplished the feat without performance-enhancing drugs. Yet he remains barred from baseball and the Hall of Fame.
OTL: Notebook shows Rose bet on MLB as player
New documents obtained by Outside the Lines indicate Rose bet extensively on baseball -- and on the Reds -- as he racked up the last hits of a record-smashing career in 1986.
Here is my policy:
1. 1-800-GAMBLER
2. Tax all winnings from gambling at the rate of short term capital gains
3. Tax all of PPD's winnings at 100% and give the proceeds to Planned Parenthood
4. Require every gambling ad to have a disclaimer: "Gambling takes your money and makes you go blind."
Sounds like a good start.
Seriously, though, I don't have a gambling account other than for horse racing.
I know how that account handles taxation. (The states take it out of every winning bet)
I'm curious how the sports betting sites handle taxes.
Because they should definitely be looking at all settled bets for a given year and reporting short term gain/loss to IRS.
I don't necessarily disagree... You can't exert complete control over every single thing that can adversely impact someone's life. And I think most people would agree that we should allow individuals to make their own choices in life. But there are still important issues to consider:
- Do we want a society that is predatory in nature? Where the ignorant and uninformed, or addicted can be taken advantage of? Predatory societies are doomed to fail...
- What will we do as a society with an epidemic of bankrupt individuals? If we say "screw them, they made their lot in life", ok, but then these people still need to survive so you will see uptick in crime, violence, overcrowded prisons, homelessness, poverty, etc.
- Freedom of choice is valuable, but should be within a framework that protects the vulnerable and prevents exploitation.
Examples:
- The "nutritional supplement" industry. This is now a $60 Billion per year industry in the United States. There are no studies that show these products yield any benefits of any kind to anyone. They even have to state this in their ads and on labeling. Yet the ignorant, uneducated, and uninformed throw out what little money they have on this garbage. This is predatory and wrong.
- I knew a guy once with a gambling problem. Sadly, he seemed to be of very limited intelligence. I tried to explain to him how odds and probability work in a way he could understand. I tried to get him to understand that the Casinos (and organized crime) are not in the habit of giving money away to people... He just was not capable of understanding any of it. Not everyone who gambles is ignorant or uneducated or misinformed, but sadly many are and again, this becomes predatory in nature...
-Vaccines. Yes, on rare occasion there can be an adverse consequence of vaccination (the extremely rare case of Guillain-Barre for example- I just saw a case last week after Shingles vaccination! But I digress!) But the overwhelming scientific evidence indicates vaccination is effective and safe, and the benefits of vaccinating a society vastly outweigh the extremely rare adverse event. Regretably- the ignorant and uninformed chose to get their information from a Playboy centerfold and then this was reinforced by a fraudulent scientist who fabricated stories and lies and got them published in the Lancet. Now I see unvaccinated people and society is starting to see Mumps, Measles, and once preventable diseases...
Maybe the failure is in our educational system? Maybe we need to do a better job of teaching people how to fact-check, interpret data, reason and make informed decisions?
But I am of the opinion that we should have some regulations and safeguards in place to protect people from themselves to a degree...
There is a lot of truth to this. I guess it comes down to how much regulation is needed to prevent stupidity. Not sure where that sweet spot is, but I think it would be a lot.
I've been hesitant to respond to this thread, but I have a unique perspective on this topic. I am a recovering addicted gambler. My Dad started taking me to the track when I was a kid and betting on horse racing was just something I enjoyed until I was in my lower 30's. When I won money, I actually won money. I kept it. Saved it. Put it toward things like vacations or other necessary things. It was a hobby - one that I had control over and wasn't an issue.
Then the apps came and that changed everything for me. It was so easy and I lost control. For years. It almost ruined my entire life. I lost A LOT of money, but I was lucky to not lose more than that. I have done a lot of work over the last five years to get to a better spot with it. I'm still not perfect, but I have put a lot of work in and put certain barriers in place to prevent me from losing control again. For the most part, I've been successful, but it's been a long and rather terrible ride.
All that said, I come to this conversation with a lot of first-hand perspective. There's zero doubt in my mind that the apps, the marketing, the ease - all of it is bad. Like most vices, it will ruin a lot of lives and I don't think it's a great thing for society. That said, I also believe strongly in personal freedoms. I don't believe people shouldn't have the option to gamble if they want to. The reality is that most people can control it and can enjoy it for the entertainment value it brings. There are so many other areas where people have problems that I do not. Drinking? I drink, but I have no problem with controlling it. Drugs? I have been a regular to semi-regular pot smoker for about 25 years and it's never led to any other drugs or ruined my life in any way. I know when to do it and how to incorporate it into my life without it being a problem or ruining anything. Guns? I have never fired a gun in my life and personally hate them. But I don't believe everyone should have their guns taken away (even though I believe strongly that the world would be better off without them).
Personal freedoms are important and shouldn't be taken away because certain people can't control themselves. Gambling almost ruined my life (it really should have), but that doesn't mean others should be punished for that. BUT I do believe there should be some rules/laws around the use of apps, betting limits (some have these already), etc. I'm not sure what those rules/laws are, but I think like we have done with guns, alcohol, drugs, etc., there are certain laws that should be put into place to protect people/society from what it can lead to.
That's just my two cents. Everyone can go back to arguing now.
Then the apps came and that changed everything for me. It was so easy and I lost control. For years. It almost ruined my entire life. I lost A LOT of money, but I was lucky to not lose more than that. I have done a lot of work over the last five years to get to a better spot with it. I'm still not perfect, but I have put a lot of work in and put certain barriers in place to prevent me from losing control again. For the most part, I've been successful, but it's been a long and rather terrible ride.
All that said, I come to this conversation with a lot of first-hand perspective. There's zero doubt in my mind that the apps, the marketing, the ease - all of it is bad. Like most vices, it will ruin a lot of lives and I don't think it's a great thing for society. That said, I also believe strongly in personal freedoms. I don't believe people shouldn't have the option to gamble if they want to. The reality is that most people can control it and can enjoy it for the entertainment value it brings. There are so many other areas where people have problems that I do not. Drinking? I drink, but I have no problem with controlling it. Drugs? I have been a regular to semi-regular pot smoker for about 25 years and it's never led to any other drugs or ruined my life in any way. I know when to do it and how to incorporate it into my life without it being a problem or ruining anything. Guns? I have never fired a gun in my life and personally hate them. But I don't believe everyone should have their guns taken away (even though I believe strongly that the world would be better off without them).
Personal freedoms are important and shouldn't be taken away because certain people can't control themselves. Gambling almost ruined my life (it really should have), but that doesn't mean others should be punished for that. BUT I do believe there should be some rules/laws around the use of apps, betting limits (some have these already), etc. I'm not sure what those rules/laws are, but I think like we have done with guns, alcohol, drugs, etc., there are certain laws that should be put into place to protect people/society from what it can lead to.
That's just my two cents. Everyone can go back to arguing now.
I've been hesitant to respond to this thread, but I have a unique perspective on this topic. I am a recovering addicted gambler. My Dad started taking me to the track when I was a kid and betting on horse racing was just something I enjoyed until I was in my lower 30's. When I won money, I actually won money. I kept it. Saved it. Put it toward things like vacations or other necessary things. It was a hobby - one that I had control over and wasn't an issue.
Then the apps came and that changed everything for me. It was so easy and I lost control. For years. It almost ruined my entire life. I lost A LOT of money, but I was lucky to not lose more than that. I have done a lot of work over the last five years to get to a better spot with it. I'm still not perfect, but I have put a lot of work in and put certain barriers in place to prevent me from losing control again. For the most part, I've been successful, but it's been a long and rather terrible ride.
All that said, I come to this conversation with a lot of first-hand perspective. There's zero doubt in my mind that the apps, the marketing, the ease - all of it is bad. Like most vices, it will ruin a lot of lives and I don't think it's a great thing for society. That said, I also believe strongly in personal freedoms. I don't believe people shouldn't have the option to gamble if they want to. The reality is that most people can control it and can enjoy it for the entertainment value it brings. There are so many other areas where people have problems that I do not. Drinking? I drink, but I have no problem with controlling it. Drugs? I have been a regular to semi-regular pot smoker for about 25 years and it's never led to any other drugs or ruined my life in any way. I know when to do it and how to incorporate it into my life without it being a problem or ruining anything. Guns? I have never fired a gun in my life and personally hate them. But I don't believe everyone should have their guns taken away (even though I believe strongly that the world would be better off without them).
Personal freedoms are important and shouldn't be taken away because certain people can't control themselves. Gambling almost ruined my life (it really should have), but that doesn't mean others should be punished for that. BUT I do believe there should be some rules/laws around the use of apps, betting limits (some have these already), etc. I'm not sure what those rules/laws are, but I think like we have done with guns, alcohol, drugs, etc., there are certain laws that should be put into place to protect people/society from what it can lead to.
That's just my two cents. Everyone can go back to arguing now.
Hey Johnny2TheP, sorry to hear about your fairly recent difficulties with gambling. I'm surprised you got that personal on this website, but certainly your situation should serve as a cautionary tale for others. I am not one to mock people when they are honest about their weaknesses.
The only thing I would point out is that this statement - "There's zero doubt in my mind that the apps, the marketing, the ease - all of it is bad." - is primarily from your perspective. In other words, you know for certain that it is bad for you. I promise you that there are a lot of people who think all of those things are great. Anybody who makes money betting online will think it is awesome. Anybody who enjoys the betting action and the rush of winning (or losing) will think online betting is fun, as long as they can come close to breaking even. So there is a range of perspectives.
Thank you for these courageous post. I too am sorry that this impacted you in such a negative way. Extraordinarily pleased that you are currently recovering.I've been hesitant to respond to this thread, but I have a unique perspective on this topic. I am a recovering addicted gambler. My Dad started taking me to the track when I was a kid and betting on horse racing was just something I enjoyed until I was in my lower 30's. When I won money, I actually won money. I kept it. Saved it. Put it toward things like vacations or other necessary things. It was a hobby - one that I had control over and wasn't an issue.
Then the apps came and that changed everything for me. It was so easy and I lost control. For years. It almost ruined my entire life. I lost A LOT of money, but I was lucky to not lose more than that. I have done a lot of work over the last five years to get to a better spot with it. I'm still not perfect, but I have put a lot of work in and put certain barriers in place to prevent me from losing control again. For the most part, I've been successful, but it's been a long and rather terrible ride.
All that said, I come to this conversation with a lot of first-hand perspective. There's zero doubt in my mind that the apps, the marketing, the ease - all of it is bad. Like most vices, it will ruin a lot of lives and I don't think it's a great thing for society. That said, I also believe strongly in personal freedoms. I don't believe people shouldn't have the option to gamble if they want to. The reality is that most people can control it and can enjoy it for the entertainment value it brings. There are so many other areas where people have problems that I do not. Drinking? I drink, but I have no problem with controlling it. Drugs? I have been a regular to semi-regular pot smoker for about 25 years and it's never led to any other drugs or ruined my life in any way. I know when to do it and how to incorporate it into my life without it being a problem or ruining anything. Guns? I have never fired a gun in my life and personally hate them. But I don't believe everyone should have their guns taken away (even though I believe strongly that the world would be better off without them).
Personal freedoms are important and shouldn't be taken away because certain people can't control themselves. Gambling almost ruined my life (it really should have), but that doesn't mean others should be punished for that. BUT I do believe there should be some rules/laws around the use of apps, betting limits (some have these already), etc. I'm not sure what those rules/laws are, but I think like we have done with guns, alcohol, drugs, etc., there are certain laws that should be put into place to protect people/society from what it can lead to.
That's just my two cents. Everyone can go back to arguing now.
Fair point. No argument with that.
As far as sharing all of that...it's not something I share often. For example, no one at the company I work for knows any of that and unless you are a good friend of mine that I keep in contact with, it's not something I go out of my way to talk about.
That said, for me at least, part of the process of recovering and staying on track is owning my past mistakes. I am really ashamed of that part of my life. It's embarrassing and I did things I would have never imagined I would do that revolved around dishonesty and hiding my problem from the people I care about. But I need to own all of that. I want to own all of that. It's part of making sure I never do that again. So while I don't go out of my way to talk about all this, this seemed like an appropriate place to share it and give a little bit of a different perspective. And it took me a few days to think about if I wanted to share it or not, but I decided today that I would. If me sharing on here helps even one other person that may have a problem or thinks they are teetering that way, it's 100% worth it.
Thanks for sharing, J2TP. I’m really happy it’s under control. That’s hard.
It sure can be.... But can there be limits/safeguards/regulations to make it viable but not predatory? Maybe....?
On the other hand, you have the conservatives- "I have a concept of an idea: Let's not make any effort at all to address things that are wrong in society, then blame it all on undocumented Hatians who eat our pets...".
It won't be the big corporation that fixes it. It will be two (or a few more) guys trying to screw the big corporation. The big corporation ensures that so many dollars come to the gambling table, that the Lundy payoff won't even compare.
And the fixers will be caught, probably before game time, because the big corporations know all the shifts in the betting action. They are so good, that it would take a mathmatical savant fixer- with an algorithimic model and an army of staggered smaller bettors, just to make it to gametime. Of course, an inside job would help.
Capitalism is the exact opposite of predatory in nature. Capitalism is based on the idea that individuals should own firms and economic production and pursue mutually beneficial transactions freely with other people. You generate profit by offering a product that you can sell for more than you produce and other people value enough to buy. This is the essence of mutual gain and cooperative transactions.
This may be the most naive thing I've ever read. Are you talking about "theory" or reality?
Both. There is a reason why it’s led to the greatest explosion of human prosperity in history. It is also the least exploitive and freest economic system ever implemented by any social group larger than a small family or tribe
