OT: Victor Wembanyama is very tall, and very good.
- Thread starter CoralSpringsCat
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How many game changers have there been in NBA history? Lots of legit super stars have come and gone through the years. But game changers transcend stardom and are exceedingly rare. In my lifetime I can think of only a few. Chamberlain, Jordan, James and now Wemby. The kid from France is young and just scratching the surface of his immense talents. Nothing in any conventional way adequately describes the many ways he can impact a game. Like nobody before him. One of the few reasons I would watch an NBA game today.
GOUNUII
Kevin garnett potential IMHO. Won't be as good as any like near top game changers that you mention. Possibly hof but not goat material
He scored 26 points in the championship game against the best players in the world. He’s 20 years old. Really hard to say what his ceiling is. He’s going to fill out at some point. And there very little he doesn’t
do well already at 7’4. He made Durant look small when he stood next to him.
Not sure I agree. His three point shooting will continue to improve. Kid has everything it takes and then some to be considered a GOAT. Seems to be a level headed player with a solid support system as well. I’m really looking forward to watching his game develop. Check out his ball handling skills. Wow!
This is a good one. I’d actually put Dirk ahead of him. Dirk normalized 7-foot perimeter players.
I agree.... that would be rather premature. Dirk and Garnett were greats who had long careers and won championships. Wemby has the apparent package to get there, but let's let the kid play at least another NBA season or two.
I think folks are just projecting based on his age, skill set and performance to date. He was the youngest starter at the Olympics and is already a very good player. His ceiling is certainly much higher than both of those guys but, like you say, he’s got to produce at a high level for a long time to compare to them. He already averaged more rebounds, blocks and assists in his rookie season than Dirk did in any season.
Sure, but I think you can excuse Embiid for getting beat on that play. You don't expect a 7'4" guy to have handles like that.
I agree with this. A similar comparison is Kristaps Porzingis. He is something like 7'3", can shoot the three and has some ability to put the ball on the floor. What has kept him from total greatness, unfortunately, has been injuries. He was an awesome weapon for the Celtics this past season, but he had to take a lot of games off and then ended up getting hurt twice during their playoff run. Fortunately, they won without him.
I also worry about his health. He’s so tall that it will be hard to play the next 15-20 years at the highest level. But for him to be so good already means he really could be the best player in the world for a 6-7 year stretch in his 20s. It’s just hard to see him having this kind of mobility into his 30s.
Can France win in ‘28? Sure, but they’ll never have the depth of the US team. Their hopes in LA might depend more on if Risacher and Sarr become stars. Batum won’t be back, Fournier and Gobert will be 36, most of their other guys are good Euroleague players but not NBA level. Even Yabusele, who’s been awesome for them, wasn’t able to stick in the NBA previously. They need those 2 young dudes to pan out so they have a solid core for ‘28 and ‘32 that they can build around.
Can France win in ‘28? Sure, but they’ll never have the depth of the US team. Their hopes in LA might depend more on if Risacher and Sarr become stars. Batum won’t be back, Fournier and Gobert will be 36, most of their other guys are good Euroleague players but not NBA level. Even Yabusele, who’s been awesome for them, wasn’t able to stick in the NBA previously. They need those 2 young dudes to pan out so they have a solid core for ‘28 and ‘32 that they can build around.
Yes. He promised to purchase a subscription to the Rock when it’s split into two separate premium football and basketball boards (all for one low price)!
Wembanyama is a very good player who has worked hard and has amazing potential
Not certain where his next 4 years or next year will take him
He seems like he could be a NBA great but that takes significantly more work and luck - which includes staying healthy
Remember the story of Sam Bowie. There’s a reason Bowie was drafted ahead of MJ. He was talented, had amazing tools, and produced in college but injuries crippled his career. He did go on to a few decent seasons but nothing approached his expectations
Not certain where his next 4 years or next year will take him
He seems like he could be a NBA great but that takes significantly more work and luck - which includes staying healthy
Remember the story of Sam Bowie. There’s a reason Bowie was drafted ahead of MJ. He was talented, had amazing tools, and produced in college but injuries crippled his career. He did go on to a few decent seasons but nothing approached his expectations
Bowie was drafted before Jordan because their GM was an idiot.
Um, I would put Kareem on that list. I’m also not sure whether I would include Chamberlain over Bill Russell, but rather make them 1a/1b.
I’m just following the conversation. The question was “how many game-changers have there been in NBA history?” The 7-4 small forward can certainly become one of them, and if he does, the evolution of the game he’d represent could be directly traced back to Dirk, who was the first real non-center 7-footer.
And because their team already had Clyde Drexler and needed a center. 1984 was a very different time. There was no position-less basketball, and centers were still considered the most important players.
Maybe so, but having grown up in the era and seeing dozens of games on TV from both, it was very clear MJ was a better prospect. You didn’t need to be Red Auerbach to see that. Clyde and MJ could have worked together because they were two of the best talents ever.
I’m lucky enough to now live in San Antonio. My son-in-law and I bought a 10 game season ticket package for weekend games, so I’m going to get to see Wemby several times this season. My impression is he’s certainly a unique talent, but I don’t know if he’s got the mindset to take over a game like the great ones.
Wemby is huge but the huge players who have had careers harmed by injury tend to be the huge ground-bound guys and not the huge guys who were also perimeter types. Yao is the best example, and Porzingis shoots but is a similar story.
Garnett and Dirk had long, productive, generally healthy careers. Giannis, the previous total game-changer, has missed some time recently but has also generally been healthy.
Wemby is simply a superior athlete.
Also, bang! Before Wemby, Curry was the last guy to truly change the game.
Garnett and Dirk had long, productive, generally healthy careers. Giannis, the previous total game-changer, has missed some time recently but has also generally been healthy.
Wemby is simply a superior athlete.
Also, bang! Before Wemby, Curry was the last guy to truly change the game.
Kareem belongs. I would have Russel ahead of Chamberlain. Wilt was a presence but all Russell did was win. To me to be on the list you gotta win.
But before all of them was George Mikan
"Due to Finkel's age (22), after his sophomore year he was eligible for the 1964 NBA draft and was chosen in the fourth round by the Los Angeles Lakers, but he chose to remain in school.[12] He was selected again in the 1965 NBA draft, again in the fourth round, by the Philadelphia 76ers, but he returned to Dayton for his senior year.[13]"
Man, it was a different time.
Man, it was a different time.
Yah, they had 4 rounds. Would seem like a reasonable decision to forgo being a 4th round pick
More like it was a different time and center was where it was at That is why Jordan is considered as a game changer
Again it was a different time and center was what they needed. As far as them working together, there is only one ball so not so likely. Now days they might have traded down to get more assets
I don’t buy this at all. MJ and Clyde are both HOF’ers and top 50 players of all time. Both were exceptional passers and there wasn’t a team on the planet that could have defended them. They absolutely would have found a way to make it work. It was this old school drafting for position at the top of the draft that costs GM’s their jobs.
Sorry but no. It was not a time of positionless BB. Both played basically the same role, both the leaders of their teams and there was only one ball. Pippen and Jordan (also both top 50 as I recall) but they had different roles and everyone knew who was THE guy and that is why it worked. Jordan would not have developed the same way if he was on the same team as Drexler
There are lots of examples of terrible NBA draft decisions (Bowie over Jordan being the most egregious), but also on the list is the Timberwolves taking TWO point guards (Ricky Rubio and Jonny Flynn) in 2009 ahead of the Warriors selecting Steph Curry with the ninth pick. Brilliant!
I hate this “one ball” argument when it comes to some of the greatest players that every lived. These players aren’t John Sharks or a big man that needs the ball dumped into to him to score and feed his ego. They both are complete players not just scorers. Clyde played with Hakeem in college and as you state Mike with Pip. Yes, they played different roles, but I am sure Mike and Clyde would have figured it out and as I mentioned, near impossible to defend for the other team. Great players figure it out, good players often don’t. Clyde likely being similar to the Pip role with more offense and less defense. Both Mike and Clyde could score, pass, rebound and defend. Clyde wasn’t the piranha that Mike was on defense but he was still better than most. Complete players that would adapt and utilize each other’s strengths to make the team better.
You might not like it but it is true. Egos involved are huge and things can be torn apart pretty quickly. So one is either willing to take on secondary role or it falls apart quickly, Drexsler was established so do you see MJ doing that? If he had would he have developed into the MJ we know or been more like Pippen? And if he hadn't taken such a roll, I can see the team (whatever team they were on) ripping itself apart.
When guys like that are put on an olympic dream team it is only for a few weeks to months and it can work for a while but on a team that is together for years....
The fact is both Mike and Clyde said they would have said for years that they worked it out. I tend to believe them. Mike would have established himself as tha Aplha after a few years, my definition of established is clearly different than yours. Clyde was the 14th pick of the 1983 draft and didn’t even start his rookie season. Picking Mike wouldn’t have disrupted the chemistry of the team and Clyde wasn’t even established as a NBA superstar.
Pretty much everyone on the planet would have taking Hakeem number 1. He was clearly on a path to super stardom. However, Sam was seriously injured throughout his time at Kentucky. Major injuries. There was significant risk to this pick! It made no sense to take Sam with the second pick, if you believed there was a redundancy take Barkley or Perkins at 2. I did cartwheels in my yard when Portland took Sam.
We won’t agree on this, so I will stop here, but IMO the Portand pick made no sense and any kind of back pedaling to justify why they missed on the greatest player of all time makes them look even more foolish.
With the injury history in college that you mention(I knew he had injury issues later but was unaware of problems in college) it might might make sense to not use it to pick Bowie. Just because Clyde did not start as rookie does not mean they did not know what they had in him, If nothing else was avail that warranted the number two and you did not see an need for an MJ on your team then trade down and get value for the pick might have been a better approach for them. That said, they did have a plan and at that time teams tended to focus on having the dominant big man and that was what Bowie looked to be
To be fair, I was in central IL at the time and was not really following college bb and pretty hard to follow the draft all that much. They might have made a right decision but with poor execution. Happened to Bulls and Jerry Krause after the dynasty in his attempts to rebuild, He did pretty well in creating the situation where he had 2nds and 3rd draft pick but screwed up in taking two HS players in Chandler and Curry. Made sense to take Brand and then to move him when getting to the point he could be entering free agency. Point is that there is often not just one way to do things to be successful
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Bill Russell would be aG League player in today's game . A 6'8"/6'9" center with no offensive skills that probably could not defend the perimeter. Let the brickbats fly
Lot's of things change over the years and people adapt, You can only play the games, rules and players that you are going up against, And all he ever did was win, both in college (San Fransisco) and the pros. He actually averaged 20 ppg as a Frosh. In fact in one of his campaigns he averaged over 20 pts and 20 rebounds, so not really without offensive skills He led them to back to back NCAA Championships and they basically have not been heard of (much) since. He had the foot speed of a guard and a huge wingspan so he shut down not just centers but also forwards. And NCAA actually changed rules because of him. In the pros 11 championships including 8 in a row. He had over 1000 rebounds in 12 straight years He is actually still second in overall rebounds and rpg. Somehow, I think he would have adapted.
Oh, and he was 7th best high jumper in the world tying in a meet with the guy that won gold
Bill Russell - Wikipedia
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As a native Portlander, I can say that the Blazers were really hyper-focused on the idea of a center at the time, because they thought it was what they were missing to make a run at the Lakers. Jim Paxson was 2nd team all-NBA as a SG in ‘84 and was still pretty young. Drexler was a young bench piece with promise. They traded for Kiki Vandeweghe, who was an elite scorer, a couple weeks before the draft. They saw Mychal Thompson as a better PF than C. They won 48 games in ‘84 so they believed they were close to contending. Bowie filled a need. I believe if they had a bad team they would’ve been more likely to draft Jordan and build around him and Drexler. They ended up slipping back to about a .500 team for a couple years before the core of their two teams that went to the finals came together in the late ‘80s.
Bowie’s injury history was a huge red flag but they took the risk. They were frustrated about not getting Olajuwon and instead of rethinking the strategy they plowed ahead with Bowie.
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