Jalen and Ty to the bench with reduced minutes, KJ and Justin to the starting lineup with more minutes. If we are serious about actually trying to win this year we can’t do this same crap against Maryland. Try and win UGLY.
Please change up this lineup for the love of God
- Thread starter Baz=Heisman
- Start date
Uh…Barney was the problem today…Leach has 15/4/5….agree with you (for once) on Ty.
Jalen is our only 3pt consistent shooter, why would you bench him? I can understand taking the ball out of his hands, but he needs to be out there to spread out the floor and knock down shots.
Gotta do something to start playing better. Assuming losses @Michigan, @Illinois and @Oregon that’s 7 losses in conf. The other 12 games are winnable but have to go 9-3 or 10-2 in those and that’s not possible if they don’t start playing better consistently.
To what? The rotation has been 7 most of the year. In that 7, the trio of BigMatt, Ty, and Mullins provide next to no scoring. However, they happen to arguably be the three best defenders on the team. Gelo and KJ have already begun to see more minutes. They are improving by they aren’t Steph Curry at this point. You win ugly by playing your best defenders, not be inserting two Freshman that are below average on defense right now.
MSU’s bench outscored our entire team in the first half. If we don’t have production from at least 3 starters we are doomed. Every player on MSU was a legit threat to score. We don’t have that at any point in these games. Ever. There isn’t size in our lineup because none of our bigs can score. The hope is you can hit 3’s. So far that’s very inconsistent. If Ty, doesn’t score, it’s very difficult for us. I don’t see much of a choice but to roll with him as a starter. If he can’t throw it in the Ocean, there really isn’t an obvious counter move. I’m sure we will see more of KJ and Gelo earlier in the game if we flounder like today. A change to the starting line up would be surprising.
Barney was not playing his game. Not sure if it was because MSU prevented him from doing it or he was under the weather or he is having issues with the teeth but that was not his game, He wasn't really going inside with those contested 10 ft shots that he destroys the opponents with and also get him to the foul line. Today he was taking most of his shots from the perimeter. 0-6 from three but other shots from outside. (that is more a tertiary part of his game but he is much more of an inside out player) No real driving or using his strengths
He worked inside twice or maybe three times and that is when he got his 4 pts
Ty only had 16 minutes but offensively not really effective. Seems to be a touch slower (he is having a lot of foul trouble) and maybe not as strong as he needs to be. Gotta think he has not really recovered from the injury.. But it has been about 9-10 months and maybe it takes closer to 18 to get to full speed. Unfortunately this is his last year Still showing some things on D but he doesn't seem to get open or be ready to take the shot
Ty just isn’t the player he was last season. I’d like Ciaravino to play with the 1s on Thursday.
Ideally, it’s the wakeup Berry needs, and he’s back in the lineup by early February. It’s also possible that Berry’s injury just took too much out of him, and he just can’t provide the quality he did last season, even in shorter stints.
Berry’s played in the teens in every game since the calendar flipped to ‘25.
Ideally, it’s the wakeup Berry needs, and he’s back in the lineup by early February. It’s also possible that Berry’s injury just took too much out of him, and he just can’t provide the quality he did last season, even in shorter stints.
Berry’s played in the teens in every game since the calendar flipped to ‘25.
Looks more mental than physical with Ty to me. He needs to see the first one go down.
The starting lineup does not need to change. Leach played better than a lot of guys out there yesterday, and Berry is still one of the best defenders we’ve got on this team. The best shot we have at winning is having this group play at a high level together. Berry as a Senior, despite his struggles offensively, still has a higher ceiling than anyone coming off the bench right now. Same with Leach.
Now, I’ll be honest, Berry isn’t the same player he was last year. His offense has been inconsistent, and that's something we've seen before in his career. But you still start him. When he’s on, he can win you games. When he’s off, you start adjusting. Last night, he played 16 minutes – that’s an example of adjusting his minutes. He’s a streaky shooter, but defensively, he's solid, and that's why he stays out there. We see what we get on the offensive end, then make adjustments as needed. Don’t put much stock into the starting lineup. Look at minutes played.
I also don’t think enough of you are paying attention to the defensive side of the game. Too much ball watching going on here. Berry is a darn good defender, and even if his offense isn’t clicking, he deserves some minutes. The freshmen are still learning, and while they’ve made progress offensively, they’ve still got a lot to clean up on defense. They’re picking their spots much better now than early in the season on offense, but they still have moments where they force shots or try to do too much. I’m excited about their growth, but let's be real. I don’t think they’re going to be the consistent answer for winning games this year unless they improve a lot on the defensive end. Hopefully something starts clicking soon. Gotta start the season turnaround ASAP.
Now, I’ll be honest, Berry isn’t the same player he was last year. His offense has been inconsistent, and that's something we've seen before in his career. But you still start him. When he’s on, he can win you games. When he’s off, you start adjusting. Last night, he played 16 minutes – that’s an example of adjusting his minutes. He’s a streaky shooter, but defensively, he's solid, and that's why he stays out there. We see what we get on the offensive end, then make adjustments as needed. Don’t put much stock into the starting lineup. Look at minutes played.
I also don’t think enough of you are paying attention to the defensive side of the game. Too much ball watching going on here. Berry is a darn good defender, and even if his offense isn’t clicking, he deserves some minutes. The freshmen are still learning, and while they’ve made progress offensively, they’ve still got a lot to clean up on defense. They’re picking their spots much better now than early in the season on offense, but they still have moments where they force shots or try to do too much. I’m excited about their growth, but let's be real. I don’t think they’re going to be the consistent answer for winning games this year unless they improve a lot on the defensive end. Hopefully something starts clicking soon. Gotta start the season turnaround ASAP.
There's an aspect to changing the starting five that has not been mentioned: when it's an attempt to shake things up, to send a message to the group that we are trying something new. Not so much related to X's and O's, but just related to trying to energize a group that might be suffering from some lack of confidence.
This is something coaches attempt when going through slumps. We are on a losing streak, just trying something new might make sense from a group dynamic stand point. "Hey, the coach acknowledges something is off and is working to correct it".
Having said this, historically, Collins sticks with his starting five. It is rare to see a change. When was the last time that happened? When Matt became a starter over Vehoeven? I mean, he stuck with Beran even as his minutes kept being less and less.
This is something coaches attempt when going through slumps. We are on a losing streak, just trying something new might make sense from a group dynamic stand point. "Hey, the coach acknowledges something is off and is working to correct it".
Having said this, historically, Collins sticks with his starting five. It is rare to see a change. When was the last time that happened? When Matt became a starter over Vehoeven? I mean, he stuck with Beran even as his minutes kept being less and less.
The only thing the Spartans liked more than forcing Barnhizer to take 3's...
was forcing him to shoot 18 foot jumpers.
It was very noticeable that the Spartan defenders weren't letting him get into the paint.
Off the top of my head it seems like Martinelli is able to get position in the paint and receive a pass, then go to work, whereas Barnhizer doesn't have that luxury - he tries to dribble his way in and its not working.
I feel like Windham has to take minutes from Berry. When your two starting guards can't handle the ball or beat guys off the dribble, you've got a big problem. Berry and Leach are similar in their limitations, though Leach is a more flexible scorer and I like him shooting midrange pull-up jumpers and 3's. Windham is quicker than either and a better ballhandler. He is also a better on-ball defender. We are getting torched by guards that Berry, Leach and Mullins can't stay in front of.
Berry has a LOT more silly fouls than I would attribute to as good a defender as you are making him out to be (he generally is good,
but not great). And his shot is WAY off; not even close in the last few games. Still not sure there are better options, but he can’t continue this level of play and start the rest of the year.
If he is defending like he did last year (appears to be for the most part, though he is called for more ticky-tack fouls it seems), then the "mental" explanation is much more plausible.
EDIT: sorry Gordie did not read your post before I posted. I think we have similar views.
Windham might have the best ability on this team to break down a defender off the dribble, outside of maybe Leach. Leach can get by his man and either hit that pull-up midrange or drive it all the way to the basket. Berry, on the other hand, is more limited in handling the ball but he excels coming off screens and getting his shot without the ball. That’s something Windham and Leach don’t quite do as well; they're more rhythm guys who need a couple of dribbles to get their looks.
Offensively, Berry is really solid in that he doesn’t force bad shots or try to do too much. That’s something most freshmen struggle with, even the really talented ones. Berry knows his role, plays within it, and doesn’t overstep. That’s a benefit especially when you’re going through shooting woes.
Now, defensively, Windham is not on the level of Leach, Mullins, or Berry. Those guys are good defenders on the ball. Mullins is an elite defender, Berry might not get enough credit for his defensive impact, especially now that everyone’s focused on his shooting struggles. Berry is one of the top three perimeter defenders we’ve got, and I think his defensive value is often overlooked. Mullins and Berry have very quick hands that really get into passing lanes and alter drives of opposing players. Windham’s not quite there yet. He doesn’t have the instincts or positioning down, and his help defense still needs work. But he’s quick enough and has the tools to develop into a very solid defender in the next year or two.
Look at Martinelli’s progression – his defensive positioning from freshman to sophomore year improved drastically. By his junior year, his footwork and speed were at a whole new level, and that’s when he became a solid defender for us. Windham has a much higher ceiling and floor defensively than Martinelli did at that stage. So, I’m high on this freshman class, but they’re a year or two away. Positioning, communication, and footwork are more than half the battle on defense, and Windham will get there. He just needs the time in the program.
Berry has gotten a ton of Ticky tack fouls. Also it’s frustrating not hitting your shot so there might be some forcing on that end to make an impact as well as general better players get better calls typically. I’m not arguing Berry needs 30+ min a game still. I’m saying you start the experienced streaky guy and adjust based on what version you have. A hot Berry really elevates what this team can do. Unfortunately haven’t seen that Berry often this year.
CCC did adjust the starting lineup to start the second half against Purdue. Some around here weren’t thrilled with that approach. There just aren’t a lot of options depth wise. Look at the Fitz experience yesterday. If Big Matt can put his shoes on, he’s pretty much guaranteed to start. Berry is a 5th year, and his Coach has his back. If Ty rewards him by playing well, he’s pretty much stays in, if he plays poorly, the Freshman play. I think he is doing exactly what he should be doing.
He’s not quite as fluid moving. Still has super quick hands. Positioning is similar. One bad or touch foul is 20% of your fouls. Sometimes he’s forcing things defensively and I’m guessing that’s to make up for lack of impact on the offensive end. Also partial ref bias. Still 3rd best perimeter defender on the team imo.
Start the streaky experienced player, see which version of them you have that day. Adjust from there.
I am not advocating one way or another. It's a decision that has pro and cons and one that can only be more educated when knowing the players. No idea how Berry would react coming off the bench. Embrace being the spark? Or having his confidence ruined?
Just wanted to add that often coaches just do something new to shake things up. Logically you play your experienced 5th year senior, see if he is on like he was at IA, or limit his minutes if he's not. But that does not bring any sense to the group we are trying something different to get out of a slump.
Ty's minutes have been somewhat adjusted. That said, the main reason they are all the way down to 14-16 is foul trouble. He never seemed to have issues like this in the past (foul trouble) so I have to wonder if recovery from the knee injury is a little behind and has slowed him a half a step. And as good as he has been, that being just a little slower turns great D into fouls and more average D. Other areas, strength may not be back as well and for a lot of months he could not practice, Hard to get in all those three point practice shots he needs to be proficient when he was sidelined for all those months
Just my comment on the idea that Collins should change the line-up to send a message. To who, exactly? To tell Barnhizer and Martinelli they need to play harder? To tell bench guys who probably desperately want to get on the floor to try harder? Matt and Ty are both coming off significant injuries and I, for one, am not questioning their effort. Toughness and motivation are not the problems here.
Anyone else notice how really quick some of those MSU players were. Seemed like they got a two step advantage in 3 steps.
I guess I'll be the first to say Mullins is not an elite defender. (Neither is Matt).
"Elite" being relative to the Big Ten.
Mullins is 6'6" and a great athlete. He's a better defender than Leach or Berry no matter who he is guarding.
As TKFH mentioned above, he is disruptive and has good length.
In my opinion, He's just not quick enough to stay in front of most Power 6 lead guards.
He's pretty damned good on anybody who isn't quick.
Thats the problem - so far we can't defend Big Ten point guards or guards who could play in the Big Ten.
I have no doubt that Mullins would be able to stop Leach or Berry and put up a good fight against Barnhizer.
He's great guarding wings. But he is a non-factor on offense.
So, for me, Collins has a real problem on his hands - with no way to solve it unless Windham or Ciaravino is able to improve things immediately or we figure out how to make Nicholson a scoring threat or find somebody to handle the ball other than Barnhizer.
"Elite" being relative to the Big Ten.
Mullins is 6'6" and a great athlete. He's a better defender than Leach or Berry no matter who he is guarding.
As TKFH mentioned above, he is disruptive and has good length.
In my opinion, He's just not quick enough to stay in front of most Power 6 lead guards.
He's pretty damned good on anybody who isn't quick.
Thats the problem - so far we can't defend Big Ten point guards or guards who could play in the Big Ten.
I have no doubt that Mullins would be able to stop Leach or Berry and put up a good fight against Barnhizer.
He's great guarding wings. But he is a non-factor on offense.
So, for me, Collins has a real problem on his hands - with no way to solve it unless Windham or Ciaravino is able to improve things immediately or we figure out how to make Nicholson a scoring threat or find somebody to handle the ball other than Barnhizer.
It's simpler than that. This team isn't good enough to get a total brickfest out of Brooks and beat a hot, top 20 team. There just aren't enough other good scoring options to be had, and taking two of the capable outside shooters off the floor (Ty's struggles obviously notwithstanding, it's catastrophic) definitely won't do it.
A message does not need to be directed at anyone in particular. It can be a statement of "we changed something. Let's hit reset. Let's restart". It can be an attempt or gimmick to give the team more confidence, to let go a bit of the recent past.
The silly fouls would tend to indicate he is getting to a spot a fraction of a second late and when that happens there is a tendency to reach and that combination has him in position that fouls are called. We have seen his work over several years and that really did not happen whereas this year it is tending to much more often than one would like. Just seems the recovery is taking longer than people think
NU has more of a team approach and that is where the strength is, At issue if one spot is off it breaks down leaving openings that can be exploited
So what do you do then? If Big Matt and Mullins aren’t elite defenders, why would they see the court? They provide very little on offense. You can’t put in Luke or Fitz if you want defense. KJ is not there yet.
I believe I am a little higher on both Big Matt and Mullins defense prowess than you are, as I think they are exceptional on defense. Of course, Mullins can’t stay in front of the best B1G lead guards. It’s not his position. We don’t have anyone on the roster that could prevent MSU lead guards from getting to the hole.
I dunno, I thought Keenan did a solid job yesterday on the court. He's not a P5 starting center, but I was actually more comfortable with him out there than Hunger. He's a lot faster than Matt, a lot faster. He should have come up with several rebounds that turned into scores inside for MSU, so I don't want to sing his praises too loudly, but Matt was getting burned constantly by speed.
Ty has always been a headgame guy. When he believes, he is gold, but his confidence seems rooted on a shaky platform. I understand why Collins goes to him in the clutch, but I suspect if people checked the history they'd realize Ty doesn't handle the clutch very well. He is definitely one of our better defenders - he had two direct steals and helped create several turnovers along the way. I agree he is a step slower than last year. He also seems to pick up a few imaginary fouls each game - like that 'trip'.
I honestly can't remember the last time the Cats had something near the fastest guy on the court in conference play. We've always been slower and a step behind. It's frustrating, but I don't see it changing. So far it seems we can only hope to find guys who are fast enough. KJ seems fast enough, he just needs experience.
Along with our shooting woes, I can't help but notice that once again our free throw shooting is hurting us. Six missed points this game, although I can't recall if any of those was also the front of a 1 and 1.
Ty has always been a headgame guy. When he believes, he is gold, but his confidence seems rooted on a shaky platform. I understand why Collins goes to him in the clutch, but I suspect if people checked the history they'd realize Ty doesn't handle the clutch very well. He is definitely one of our better defenders - he had two direct steals and helped create several turnovers along the way. I agree he is a step slower than last year. He also seems to pick up a few imaginary fouls each game - like that 'trip'.
I honestly can't remember the last time the Cats had something near the fastest guy on the court in conference play. We've always been slower and a step behind. It's frustrating, but I don't see it changing. So far it seems we can only hope to find guys who are fast enough. KJ seems fast enough, he just needs experience.
Along with our shooting woes, I can't help but notice that once again our free throw shooting is hurting us. Six missed points this game, although I can't recall if any of those was also the front of a 1 and 1.
My thoughts about Ty:
It was just two weeks ago that Ty scored 23 against Northeastern. He has definitely been hot and cold this season, more than he was last year before his injury, when his offensive consistency seemed more reliable. I can't figure out why - nothing about his shooting form seems off to me (I am by no means an expert). Every shot he put up Sunday seemed to be a good look to me. (other than the one that was tipped by the defender, and that was just a good defensive play)
His defense remains excellent. Lots of hustle plays, a few steals. One of our better defenders, I don't see how CCC can reduce his minutes significantly, simply because of this.
He does draw some ticky-tack falls, but so does our entire team. This I blame more on the refs not giving our team the benefit of the doubt. Ty is certainly aggressive on defense (as is the rest of our team), but I think he doesn't get away with minor contact the way players on other teams do. The Spartan guards were aggressively hand-checking us all game, but the refs never seemed to call it, whereas ever similar situation was called a foul on us. I don't fault Ty for the fouls he drew vs MSU - they were all BS, in my opinion.
It was just two weeks ago that Ty scored 23 against Northeastern. He has definitely been hot and cold this season, more than he was last year before his injury, when his offensive consistency seemed more reliable. I can't figure out why - nothing about his shooting form seems off to me (I am by no means an expert). Every shot he put up Sunday seemed to be a good look to me. (other than the one that was tipped by the defender, and that was just a good defensive play)
His defense remains excellent. Lots of hustle plays, a few steals. One of our better defenders, I don't see how CCC can reduce his minutes significantly, simply because of this.
He does draw some ticky-tack falls, but so does our entire team. This I blame more on the refs not giving our team the benefit of the doubt. Ty is certainly aggressive on defense (as is the rest of our team), but I think he doesn't get away with minor contact the way players on other teams do. The Spartan guards were aggressively hand-checking us all game, but the refs never seemed to call it, whereas ever similar situation was called a foul on us. I don't fault Ty for the fouls he drew vs MSU - they were all BS, in my opinion.
I think Nicholson is a good to very good defender. If we had a better alternative, he'd be playing. But the defensive dropoff to Hunger is pretty significant.
Matt does a lot of good work on the defensive end - challenging shots, altering shots, walling guys off, stopping penetration... but he is a below average rebounder for a guy his size, so he gets downgraded for that.
Similarly, Mullins is better defensively than Leach and Berry. So he can get minutes for that reason (without being elite).
However, It is a challenge to play Mullins with Nicholson because the offense grinds to a halt. So Collins has played Mullins more with Hunger.
I don’t think Berry is 100 percent physically. He was never a great finisher but he did get to the rim more last year. He was averaging 11.6 points game last year when he went down. He was able to score a little even when his outside shot wasn’t falling. He had a 11 point and 7 rebounds last year against Maryland and he shot 1-5 from 3. He usually had a couple of baskets a game inside the 3-point line. He rarely drives to the lane this year and his rebounding is down.
I don't think you can take Nicholson (must have a big defending) or Leach (scoring) out of the starting line-up, which leaves the improvement to Ty's spot. Is there anyone whose offense+defense is better than Ty's offense+defense, where the offense must come from long-range? (because Barney and Mart are already in or near the lane). I don't think the freshman or Mullins are a net improvement yet. My view is that the loss of Boo/lack of top-rank point guard brings the team back to average this year.
The last time the Cats had something near the fastest guy on the court in conference play was last season. His name was Boo Buie.
But he wasn't really that fast. He was tricky and able to get a step on guys by getting them off balance at the start, but in anything like a foot race he was getting beat most of the time.
I do agree he was one of our fastest guys tho. His NBA2K rating for speed is 79
Similar threads
