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QBs under Fitz/McCall

torque-cat

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Dec 11, 2018
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Fitz and McCall have had developed great QBs over the past decade. 3 of these 4 got drafted to the NFL and the one that didn't was arguably a better college QB than all of them.
Kafka
Persa
Siemian
Thorson

This is the first year in a long time we've seen really bad QB play--after losing a 4 yr starter to the NFL and an injury to our most experienced QB in the first game. Hopefully Marty is part of the answer going forward.
 
It was a mistake for the long term progress of the program to start Thorson so early in his career. It sent a message to the next three years of recruits that they would not see the field and he was at best mediocre his first year. As a result the number of quality recruits at QB was diminished, we are not Clemson after all. When Thorson's long and productive career ended, the cupboard was fairly bare so NU jumped at HJ, further discouraging the stable of QB's available. Fitz has now admitted that the QB room didn't prepare well in the off season. Green got hurt, HJ had issues, and every one else felt replaced. Season ruined.
We did get a B1G west championship out of it but I think we could have gotten it if Thorson had waited out a year and a better line up was waiting in the wings.
 
It was a mistake for the long term progress of the program to start Thorson so early in his career. It sent a message to the next three years of recruits that they would not see the field and he was at best mediocre his first year. As a result the number of quality recruits at QB was diminished, we are not Clemson after all. When Thorson's long and productive career ended, the cupboard was fairly bare so NU jumped at HJ, further discouraging the stable of QB's available. Fitz has now admitted that the QB room didn't prepare well in the off season. Green got hurt, HJ had issues, and every one else felt replaced. Season ruined.
We did get a B1G west championship out of it but I think we could have gotten it if Thorson had waited out a year and a better line up was waiting in the wings.
Who would have played?

You play your best players.
 
Fitz and McCall have had developed great QBs over the past decade. 3 of these 4 got drafted to the NFL and the one that didn't was arguably a better college QB than all of them.
Kafka
Persa
Siemian
Thorson

This is the first year in a long time we've seen really bad QB play--after losing a 4 yr starter to the NFL and an injury to our most experienced QB in the first game. Hopefully Marty is part of the answer going forward.
I don't believe one single QB developed under the new power running offense that Fitz has employed. The offense blows, is a dinosaur, and each QB has gotten eaten alive.

Thorson never developed under this offense. He had a great arm and was a prized recruit but stuck in a non development stage. The offense blew and alot of it was because he never cracked the same tendencies he had as a freshman. The Big Ten conference didn't even pay any mind to him with any honors team.

Since the advent of Mr Fitzgerald's offensive hoodwinking, we have had the following stud QBs and none developed. ZERO
1. Alviti 4 star. All State. # 6 National duel threat. Forgot how to throw the ball
2. Oliver. Solid recruit. Big arm. Completely lost in the offense
3. Smith. Solid recruit, almost 4 star 5.8. Completely bamboozled
4. Hunter Johnson. #1 recruit in the nation. Hoodwinked
5. Thorson. #6 rated national QB. Relied on a big arm but monstrously underdeveloped football play.
6. Marty. Mr Fitzgerald thought he wasn't developed, but turns out, he may actually be the most developed we have.

Toss in that Mr Fitzgerald decided not to recruit a QB recently, and now Aktinson hoodwinked him.

Not much to hope for next season other than the awful schedule which may get us to 5-7 wins.
 
I don't believe one single QB developed under the new power running offense that Fitz has employed. The offense blows, is a dinosaur, and each QB has gotten eaten alive.

Thorson never developed under this offense. He had a great arm and was a prized recruit but stuck in a non development stage. The offense blew and alot of it was because he never cracked the same tendencies he had as a freshman. The Big Ten conference didn't even pay any mind to him with any honors team.

Since the advent of Mr Fitzgerald's offensive hoodwinking, we have had the following stud QBs and none developed. ZERO
1. Alviti 4 star. All State. # 6 National duel threat. Forgot how to throw the ball
2. Oliver. Solid recruit. Big arm. Completely lost in the offense
3. Smith. Solid recruit, almost 4 star 5.8. Completely bamboozled
4. Hunter Johnson. #1 recruit in the nation. Hoodwinked
5. Thorson. #6 rated national QB. Relied on a big arm but monstrously underdeveloped football play.
6. Marty. Mr Fitzgerald thought he wasn't developed, but turns out, he may actually be the most developed we have.

Toss in that Mr Fitzgerald decided not to recruit a QB recently, and now Aktinson hoodwinked him.

Not much to hope for next season other than the awful schedule which may get us to 5-7 wins.

Stop making shit up.
 
It was a mistake for the long term progress of the program to start Thorson so early in his career. It sent a message to the next three years of recruits that they would not see the field and he was at best mediocre his first year. As a result the number of quality recruits at QB was diminished, we are not Clemson after all. When Thorson's long and productive career ended, the cupboard was fairly bare so NU jumped at HJ, further discouraging the stable of QB's available. Fitz has now admitted that the QB room didn't prepare well in the off season. Green got hurt, HJ had issues, and every one else felt replaced. Season ruined.
We did get a B1G west championship out of it but I think we could have gotten it if Thorson had waited out a year and a better line up was waiting in the wings.

Mistake? Are you serious? CT beat Stanford as a RS frosh. Who would you have had start at QB? Oliver? Predicting the future is tough.
 
I don't believe one single QB developed under the new power running offense that Fitz has employed. The offense blows, is a dinosaur, and each QB has gotten eaten alive.

Thorson never developed under this offense. He had a great arm and was a prized recruit but stuck in a non development stage. The offense blew and alot of it was because he never cracked the same tendencies he had as a freshman. The Big Ten conference didn't even pay any mind to him with any honors team.

Since the advent of Mr Fitzgerald's offensive hoodwinking, we have had the following stud QBs and none developed. ZERO
1. Alviti 4 star. All State. # 6 National duel threat. Forgot how to throw the ball
2. Oliver. Solid recruit. Big arm. Completely lost in the offense
3. Smith. Solid recruit, almost 4 star 5.8. Completely bamboozled
4. Hunter Johnson. #1 recruit in the nation. Hoodwinked
5. Thorson. #6 rated national QB. Relied on a big arm but monstrously underdeveloped football play.
6. Marty. Mr Fitzgerald thought he wasn't developed, but turns out, he may actually be the most developed we have.

Toss in that Mr Fitzgerald decided not to recruit a QB recently, and now Aktinson hoodwinked him.

Not much to hope for next season other than the awful schedule which may get us to 5-7 wins.

Fake News.
 
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Mistake? Are you serious? CT beat Stanford as a RS frosh. Who would you have had start at QB? Oliver? Predicting the future is tough.
I think Alviti could have produced the same. Thorson blew his freshman year. We won stanford because the early start and our defense limiting a very tired C Mac. Fast forward, and Tennessee crushed us in the bowl game because there was little to no development in Thorson. When Tennessee picked on our very weak matchup of Awalk being assigned to Kamara out of the backfield, the game simply got out of hand and we were out of aces (JJTBC) and had to play the low card (Thorson).
Not good!
 
Fake News.
backed up with evidence. I know you think Thorson was the second coming of Dan Marino but he never developed. Period. Guy couldn't even make a NFL active roster.
His senior year was no better than any other year he had. And it certainly wasn't his best.

I'm not sure if you had breakfast with McCall or what but you need to start becoming more forward thinking and let's hope McCall gets a head coaching job at a Div 2 or Div 3 school.
 
I think Alviti could have produced the same. Thorson blew his freshman year. We won stanford because the early start and our defense limiting a very tired C Mac. Fast forward, and Tennessee crushed us in the bowl game because there was little to no development in Thorson. When Tennessee picked on our very weak matchup of Awalk being assigned to Kamara out of the backfield, the game simply got out of hand and we were out of aces (JJTBC) and had to play the low card (Thorson).
Not good!
I had several people that would know tell me CT was out best option at the end of his true Freshman year. I think if the 4 game redshirt rule would have been in effect then, you would have seen him against Illinois that year.
 
I think Alviti could have produced the same. Thorson blew his freshman year. We won stanford because the early start and our defense limiting a very tired C Mac. Fast forward, and Tennessee crushed us in the bowl game because there was little to no development in Thorson. When Tennessee picked on our very weak matchup of Awalk being assigned to Kamara out of the backfield, the game simply got out of hand and we were out of aces (JJTBC) and had to play the low card (Thorson).
Not good!

Alviti who couldn't really run at that point and was having accuracy issues?
 
backed up with evidence. I know you think Thorson was the second coming of Dan Marino but he never developed. Period. Guy couldn't even make a NFL active roster.
His senior year was no better than any other year he had. And it certainly wasn't his best.

I'm not sure if you had breakfast with McCall or what but you need to start becoming more forward thinking and let's hope McCall gets a head coaching job at a Div 2 or Div 3 school.

You think the ACL tear might've had something to do with his senior year?
 
You think the ACL tear might've had something to do with his senior year?
No. As evidenced by his short lived NFL career. He just never really developed at all. I doubt it was his fault. If he were at Clemson then maybe he would have lit it up. Certainly he had the arm. But he just wasn't a hard nosed type of player like Persa or Baz. Just couldn't count on him to sacrifice on a run to get that extra half foot for the first down.
 
It was a mistake for the long term progress of the program to start Thorson so early in his career. It sent a message to the next three years of recruits that they would not see the field and he was at best mediocre his first year. As a result the number of quality recruits at QB was diminished, we are not Clemson after all. When Thorson's long and productive career ended, the cupboard was fairly bare so NU jumped at HJ, further discouraging the stable of QB's available. Fitz has now admitted that the QB room didn't prepare well in the off season. Green got hurt, HJ had issues, and every one else felt replaced. Season ruined.
We did get a B1G west championship out of it but I think we could have gotten it if Thorson had waited out a year and a better line up was waiting in the wings.
Not sure there was a choice.Alviti was injured and we saw what Oliver had to offer. HJ was brought into the fold after we had a big decommit.
 
I don't believe one single QB developed under the new power running offense that Fitz has employed. The offense blows, is a dinosaur, and each QB has gotten eaten alive.

Thorson never developed under this offense. He had a great arm and was a prized recruit but stuck in a non development stage. The offense blew and alot of it was because he never cracked the same tendencies he had as a freshman. The Big Ten conference didn't even pay any mind to him with any honors team.

Since the advent of Mr Fitzgerald's offensive hoodwinking, we have had the following stud QBs and none developed. ZERO
1. Alviti 4 star. All State. # 6 National duel threat. Forgot how to throw the ball
2. Oliver. Solid recruit. Big arm. Completely lost in the offense
3. Smith. Solid recruit, almost 4 star 5.8. Completely bamboozled
4. Hunter Johnson. #1 recruit in the nation. Hoodwinked
5. Thorson. #6 rated national QB. Relied on a big arm but monstrously underdeveloped football play.
6. Marty. Mr Fitzgerald thought he wasn't developed, but turns out, he may actually be the most developed we have.

Toss in that Mr Fitzgerald decided not to recruit a QB recently, and now Aktinson hoodwinked him.

Not much to hope for next season other than the awful schedule which may get us to 5-7 wins.
Alviti had a hip injury that put him behind CT. HJ has had some other issues going on. Not sure on Oliver as he never showed much. With AA committed, how much QB recruiting do you expect?
 
I think Alviti could have produced the same. Thorson blew his freshman year. We won stanford because the early start and our defense limiting a very tired C Mac. Fast forward, and Tennessee crushed us in the bowl game because there was little to no development in Thorson. When Tennessee picked on our very weak matchup of Awalk being assigned to Kamara out of the backfield, the game simply got out of hand and we were out of aces (JJTBC) and had to play the low card (Thorson).
Not good!
Alviti was injured and his hip eventually needed surgery. How do you start him ahead of CT
 
No. As evidenced by his short lived NFL career. He just never really developed at all. I doubt it was his fault. If he were at Clemson then maybe he would have lit it up. Certainly he had the arm. But he just wasn't a hard nosed type of player like Persa or Baz. Just couldn't count on him to sacrifice on a run to get that extra half foot for the first down.

He went from a single year of QB full time in high school to a school's all-time winningest QB to NFL draft pick. Walk me through where he "never really developed at all."
 
Stop making shit up.
There's a lot of BS in his post, but also some accuracy. Part of Turk's problem is that his posts seem to be trying to agitate, instead of just conveying info. Thorson is the only one of these that did anything, and there was bitter complaining about him and/or the offense for most of his tenure, except for the Austin Carr year. Now, the QB is always the focal point, and in most cases the most important player on the field, and perhaps that is attributing too much of the success or failure to the QB. Nevertheless, even without any qualitative complaints, his QBR went down and INT's went up soph/junior/senior years. Was there any reason to expect a fifth year senior/four year starter to have an Akron debacle followed by an MSU blitzkrieg 2 weeks later? Isn't it reasonable to expect some consistency by then?

The other guys - a hypothesis. Blah Blah practice like you will play, but some of these guys would have been rusty because they rarely or never played. We played so many close games that the backup never got the opportunity to do much of anything. When Oliver and Alviti were pressed into service they were erratic, sometimes good, sometimes not, from play to play, and neither of them dominated when they came in. Regardless of the reason, they didn't perform as well as some other teams' notable backups that were pressed into service when the starter went down or graduated. We hear about next man up/be ready but these are 17-21 year old kids, it's hard to hold there attention for, say THREE YEARS. Any of you have the experience having to sit the bench? I had one year of it, as a freshman on the varsity baseball team in high school. It is agonizing. You do all the work and you don't play. Perhaps it is why the QB room wasn't "ready". Four years of spectator sport and then HJ arrives (which I fully support - it is successful nearly everywhere else except, of course, NU). Pretty easy to get into the habit of "looking at your phone" instead of making every rep count.

In short, McCall and or his/Fitz offense are not 'developing NFL QB's'. Instead, they have recruited guys with some NFL level skill, though apparently not lately, and we are hiding behind 'we've developed more pro QB's than any B1G team in the last decade' 'Siemian is the first NU QB to start an NFL game since Kerrigan' or whatever. Personally, although I love these kids and want them to have successful careers when they leave, I couldn't care less if it is in the NFL or in venture capital, other than the reflected notoriety if gives the program. I just want successful college QBs.

I may deserve to get flagged for a repetitive post here, but the worst boss I ever had once said: "if our team members are not meeting their goals, it is because we (as leaders) have failed them".

It is the responsibility of the millionaires in charge to ensure that they properly vet, select, develop and prepare the indentured servants that they recruit. If they perform poorly, there must be an action plan to fix it. Any failure, particularly a consistent failure or negative trend, falls squarely on the coaches Fire them? Probably not. Insist on a remediation plan? Surely. Any other millionaire in any other industry would be held to this standard.
 
He went from a single year of QB full time in high school to a school's all-time winningest QB to NFL draft pick. Walk me through where he "never really developed at all."
I think you input "Team Credit" to him. Nate Hall was probably the all time winningest LB on the team as well. So what?

Look, he started 53 games. That's a ton more than any other NU QB. But who the hell cares if he was a starter, in the context? He was barely over 50% accurate. Somewhere between 50%-60% in his career. And close to an even split among TD/INT. His yards per attempt was under 5 for his career. These are all dreadful numbers. He got drafted because he has a great arm. But, at the end of the day, he couldn't make the active roster because of his lack of development in reading defenses.
 
No. As evidenced by his short lived NFL career. He just never really developed at all. I doubt it was his fault. If he were at Clemson then maybe he would have lit it up. Certainly he had the arm. But he just wasn't a hard nosed type of player like Persa or Baz. Just couldn't count on him to sacrifice on a run to get that extra half foot for the first down.

Thorson is still on the Cowboys practice squad, so he still has an NFL career. And he was as hard-nosed as they come, you have no clue what you're talking about. Go back in his career to see how many QB sneaks he successfully pulled off to get first downs and, yes, touchdowns. Numerous. Many many many.

Your argument is flawed because a "short lived NFL career" doesn't mean a player wasn't developed. That's a very simpleton way of looking at it. For example, while Baz had a great college career and broke all kinds of passing records at NU, he was the one who had a short lived NFL career as an undrafted free agent.
 
Thorson is still on the Cowboys practice squad, so he still has an NFL career. And he was as hard-nosed as they come, you have no clue what you're talking about. Go back in his career to see how many QB sneaks he successfully pulled off to get first downs and, yes, touchdowns. Numerous. Many many many.

Your argument is flawed because a "short lived NFL career" doesn't mean a player wasn't developed. That's a very simpleton way of looking at it. For example, while Baz had a great college career and broke all kinds of passing records at NU, he was the one who had a short lived NFL career as an undrafted free agent.
Look, genius, the question wasn't about a NFL career, it was about development. Baz developed and Thorson didn't. Baz was all big ten first team.

Thorson did break one all time Big Ten record. Most passing attempts in a career, in the Big Ten. He is #1 all time. So I guess that makes him a stud.
lolol
Look, if you want to crown him, then crown him. But I seen and he was who I thought he was.
 
I think you input "Team Credit" to him. Nate Hall was probably the all time winningest LB on the team as well. So what?

Look, he started 53 games. That's a ton more than any other NU QB. But who the hell cares if he was a starter, in the context? He was barely over 50% accurate. Somewhere between 50%-60% in his career. And close to an even split among TD/INT. His yards per attempt was under 5 for his career. These are all dreadful numbers. He got drafted because he has a great arm. But, at the end of the day, he couldn't make the active roster because of his lack of development in reading defenses.

I'm not arguing that McCall's offense is good. I'm arguing that his QB development has been just fine.

PS -- making the active roster of an NFL team is REALLY REALLY hard if you're not a first round pick. Thorson is the norm, not the exception. That is not a strong argument.
 
Look, genius, the question wasn't about a NFL career, it was about development. Baz developed and Thorson didn't. Baz was all big ten first team.

Thorson did break one all time Big Ten record. Most passing attempts in a career, in the Big Ten. He is #1 all time. So I guess that makes him a stud.
lolol
Look, if you want to crown him, then crown him. But I seen and he was who I thought he was.

Look, genius, nowhere am I trying to crown Thorson. Just debunking some of your #FakeNews about Thorson. You tore down Thorson as someone with a short lived NFL career as a prime example of why he did not develop. I pointed out your flawed argument. Try to use actual facts when you are trying to make a point, not just making shit up.

And no, the earth is not flat.
 
I think Alviti could have produced the same. Thorson blew his freshman year. We won stanford because the early start and our defense limiting a very tired C Mac. Fast forward, and Tennessee crushed us in the bowl game because there was little to no development in Thorson. When Tennessee picked on our very weak matchup of Awalk being assigned to Kamara out of the backfield, the game simply got out of hand and we were out of aces (JJTBC) and had to play the low card (Thorson).
Not good!

You forgot to mention his small hands.
 
I'm not arguing that McCall's offense is good. I'm arguing that his QB development has been just fine.

PS -- making the active roster of an NFL team is REALLY REALLY hard if you're not a first round pick. Thorson is the norm, not the exception. That is not a strong argument.
sorry, we just disagree. Having a 50% completion percentage and almost 1/1 TD/INT, and only 5 yards per attempt isn't showing any progress or development. You may think so but you can't use the stats as evidence. And being a captain doesn't count.
 
Look, genius, nowhere am I trying to crown Thorson. Just debunking some of your #FakeNews about Thorson. You tore down Thorson as someone with a short lived NFL career as a prime example of why he did not develop. I pointed out your flawed argument. Try to use actual facts when you are trying to make a point, not just making shit up.

And no, the earth is not flat.
facts, you wouldn't know them. Try a completion % of under 60%. Or maybe a 1/1 TD/INT rate, or just go with a 5 yard per attempt. Cripes, why do we have to discuss this, he wasn't that good.
 
sorry, we just disagree. Having a 50% completion percentage and almost 1/1 TD/INT, and only 5 yards per attempt isn't showing any progress or development. You may think so but you can't use the stats as evidence. And being a captain doesn't count.

Good thing I have eyeballs and watched the games. Thorson pretty clearly developed from freshman year to senior year.
 
Look, genius, the question wasn't about a NFL career, it was about development. Baz developed and Thorson didn't. Baz was all big ten first team.

Thorson did break one all time Big Ten record. Most passing attempts in a career, in the Big Ten. He is #1 all time. So I guess that makes him a stud.
lolol
Look, if you want to crown him, then crown him. But I seen and he was who I thought he was.

Baz also had a very good OL, including four future NFL players and an NFL practice squad guy. Thorson had no such talent on the OL.
 
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Baz also had a very good OL, including four future NFL players and an NFL practice squad guy. Thorson had no such talent on the OL.
That's true. Look, maybe things would be different. Certainly he may have looked like Bart Starr if he played for Clemson. But I saw no evidence comparing his senior year against his sophomore year that he had anything more than marginal development.
 
That's true. Look, maybe things would be different. Certainly he may have looked like Bart Starr if he played for Clemson. But I saw no evidence comparing his senior year against his sophomore year that he had anything more than marginal development.

He was recovering from major surgery, playing much earlier than normal for such a severe injury. Thorson clearly improved from his freshman to sophomore year when he had a good receiver to throw to. Our best WR's the past ten years who could always get open like Carr and Markshausen were walkons. Does that tell you something about our WR recruiting?

I'm not dismissing the need for a fresh change, but the OC isn't our only issue on offense. I played on a HS team that ran the same 5 plays 95% of the time, yet we couldn't be stopped, averaging over 7 yards per rush. Jimmys and Joes
 
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He was recovering from major surgery, playing much earlier than normal for such a severe injury. Thorson clearly improved from his freshman to sophomore year when he had a good receiver to throw to. Our best WR's the past ten years who could always get open like Carr and Markshausen were walkons. Does that tell you something about our WR recruiting?

I'm not dismissing the need for a fresh change, but the OC isn't our only issue on offense. I played on a HS team that ran the same 5 plays 95% of the time, yet we couldn't be stopped, averaging over 7 yards per rush. Jimmys and Joes
zeke and Carr were truly the best. Walkons.
 
Look, genius, the question wasn't about a NFL career, it was about development. Baz developed and Thorson didn't. Baz was all big ten first team.

Thorson did break one all time Big Ten record. Most passing attempts in a career, in the Big Ten. He is #1 all time. So I guess that makes him a stud.
lolol
Look, if you want to crown him, then crown him. But I seen and he was who I thought he was.
Thorson is the all-time NU leader in wins. Last I checked, that is the most important stat in football (or any sport). Who gives a shit about All-B1G stats when #18 left everything he had on the field.

I have no problem with how McCall coaches QBs. He should - at a minimum - be stripped of playcalling duties and his system should be replaced with a newer, fresher OC’s who knows how to maximize all of his talent and minimize injuries.

I thought you had quit the team after your $100K+ donations to the program? Does this mean you’re back? If so, can you bring back the bulldog who ranked players?
 
Fitz and McCall have had developed great QBs over the past decade. 3 of these 4 got drafted to the NFL and the one that didn't was arguably a better college QB than all of them.

Kafka
Persa
Siemian
Thorson

Kafka and Persa got coached up by Baz.

Siemian was a gunslinger the moment he walked onto campus (McCall and the O ended up taking some of that away from him) and McCall never fully utilized all of Trevor's talents.

Also couldn't develop a good enough back-up behind TS, where Trevor had to play on basically one leg the week after having sustained a high ankle sprain.

Thorson was pretty raw as a passer coming in and while he did develop some, never developed to the extent that I thought he would/should (never turned into the type of accurate passer while scrambling, something that Persa became known for and TS at the very end of his collegiate career).

Which was a shame since CT had the tools to develop into that type of QB (Kafka as well).

Basically, it took the NU QB to be able to go off-script (Persa and a little bit of TS) for the O to click despite the issues at the O-line and at receiver.
 
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