RE-Handicapping 2016 (Subtitle: This is just silly)

[Gladeskat]

Two things: by my count, you have stated that good teams are based on half of the starting 22. Quite a limb to go out on. You forgot the cheerleaders, fans and God.

I also think we have sent more QBs to the NFL recently. But I think the better comparison would be NFL games played. I have no idea on the answer.

I'll take great players in that half of the team over the other half of the team. Teams like Wisconsin have dominated the Big Ten recently with those positions as their emphasis. I'll take Baz, Kafka, Bacher, and the best of them all, Dan Persa, over Fitz's QB's any day. Hopefully our QB's now and in the future will prove me wrong. All of those guys had incredible performances in their careers, some of the best in Big Ten history: Baz (Wisconsin and MSU, 2005), Bacher (MSU and Minny in 2007), Kafka (Minnesota 2008), Persa (Vandy and Iowa 2010).

 

[Gladeskat]

[QUOTE="xyzbobxyz, post: 42435, member:

My point was I couldn't understand if your opinion revolved around the coaches recruiting misses or critizing their development of solid recruits. You just referenced successful players that were lightly regarded recruits in this post, so maybe you mean we can develop players but aren't so good at recruiting highly rated WR''s? Hard to tell because you pretty much threw everything against the wall that could be the coaches fault.

You also seem to suggest that coaches should jettison under performers. That reminds me of the SEC approach to covering up recruiting misses. See Alabama. Maybe you can do that at the factories, but not at NU where reputation risk is paramount in recruiting. Either way it just isn't the ethical thing to do.[/QUOTE]

Let me clarify. I think there are som systematic problems with the current football program. I think WR. Is one good example. Historically, w have produce some high quality receivers - sufficient to draw NFL attention.. More recently, not. Why?

If you say incoming talent, I say the position coach should accept responsibility for evaluation.

If you say injuries, I say there is a systemic issue. Plus, I still think the remnants should produce some high quality results occasionally.

If you say lack of development, I say coaching issue.

If you say players losing focus or drive, then I say they should not be returning.

If you say other positions, I say which ones? Identify where you specifically assign this failure.

Ultimately, players play. But coaches select the players, manage the players and develop the players. Their fingerprints are all over the system. And that is why I believe these positions are volatile. You show a propensity, you move up the food chain. You fail to produce production from your group, then you should move down. End of story.[/QUOTE]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

So you'd fire your best salesman after a bad year when he's had serious issues with family health? I won't assign blame anywhere yet because I don't know all the circumstances affecting our play on the field. If Fitz can't figure out the problems and make proper personnel decisions, then he risks losing his job and all the coaches hit the bricks. You're telling Fitz how to do his job and he's got far more information than you do.

I'd question the recruiting process, what kind of talent have they targeted for receivers/athletes and how have they progressed. I'd also question the coaching drills and the psychology of the players and how it's been affected by coaching versus other influences (tough to do).

While injury rates suggest some systematic problem, I'd investigate to make sure I'm not firing coaches for events occurring purely by chance. All of our coaches are accountable. NU just isn't quick to fire them after one season of poor player performance. Type I errors are not good, either, but you seem to embrace braving such errors, figuring the next guy is better than the guy who had to coach players he didn't recruit or were injured by chance. Again, Fitz seems to see value in keeping them, even at the risk of losing his own job.

Yes. I do think coaches should jettison players who don't seem to care about football. They should be talked to and given a chance to rebound, but they shouldn't be wasting a scholarship on players who don't put forth the necessary effort. They hurt the team and other kids/prospects who work hard and could use those scholarships. I don't fear any loss of program reputation for doing so either.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Yes. I do think coaches should jettison players who don't seem to care about football. They should be talked to and given a chance to rebound, but they shouldn't be wasting a scholarship on players who don't put forth the necessary effort. They hurt the team and other kids/prospects who work hard and could use those scholarships. I don't fear any loss of program reputation for doing so either.

The problem with this is what and who determines "don't seem to care about football" and "don't put forth the necessary effort"? To me, this opens up Pandora's box for staff to cover up recruiting mistakes. Player underperforms so we'll find away to cut him loose under an effort clause. Of course, if there are egregious violations like missing practice, not taking part in required team functions etc. they should be jettisoned.

Like you I was also a Division 1 scholarship athlete. However, it was a non revenue sport far away from the spotlight that NU football. From my experience and maybe from yours as well, I can tell you we had some highly regarded guys come in that never met expectations. A couple were guys that developed mental blocks when the lights came on and couldn't perform to their abilities. If wasn't a lack of effort or not caring, although from the outside you could question that.

You see other schools already doing this by making up some bogus rule that is inconsistently applied to have an out to replace a player not living up to expectations. There was even rumblings of this in Rantol with Simon Cijanovic's recent meltdown. I bet what was going on there is minor compared to some of the factories practices.

 

[Gladeskat]

The problem with this is what and who determines "don't seem to care about football" and "don't put forth the necessary effort"? To me, this opens up Pandora's box for staff to cover up recruiting mistakes. Player underperforms so we'll find away to cut him loose under an effort clause. Of course, if there are egregious violations like missing practice, not taking part in required team functions etc. they should be jettisoned.

Like you I was also a Division 1 scholarship athlete. However, it was a non revenue sport far away from the spotlight that NU football. From my experience and maybe from yours as well, I can tell you we had some highly regarded guys come in that never met expectations. A couple were guys that developed mental blocks when the lights came on and couldn't perform to their abilities. If wasn't a lack of effort or not caring, although from the outside you could question that.

You see other schools already doing this by making up some bogus rule that is inconsistently applied to have an out to replace a player not living up to expectations. There was even rumblings of this in Rantol with Simon Cijanovic's recent meltdown. I bet what was going on there is minor compared to some of the factories practices.

All very true. I would let folks go who obviously aren't interested in football anymore. I've seen a few examples of guys who just don't care anymore and just went through the motions in a half-assed manner. There certainly would be an opportunity for abuse by coaches, though. Some coaches do it anyway in much harsher fashion...verbally or physically abusing players to run them off, or some of the antics Beckman supposedly pulled with drug testing on a player or two at Illinois to get rid of them. Desperate car salesmen.

 

[hdhntr1]

My understanding of recruiting is that position coaches do review and sign off on players they will be coaching, but they do not spend much time researching the best DT's in the land and go out and recruit them. They have their own regions to recruit. The bulk of the actual recruiting is left to the coach that handles a given geographic region. For example, I never met or talked to my position coach until I showed up in the fall and was told I'd be playing DT. I had met just about every other coach on the staff except my position coach. I assume he saw me on tape, but he never attended one of my games as far as I know. The RB coach did ALL the legwork in my recruitment. He was the guy blamed for my sucking my freshman year. My but he was really happy (Jake was always smiling) when I started playing better my sophomore year (he was the guy who insinuated that he caught some heat my freshman year). GoCatsGo would know better how they partition recruiting chores nowadays.

Our injury situation has been horrible the last two years. Sorry, but that can't be dismissed by saying everybody has injuries. Our star players were either out for the year (CJones) or out for several game stretches. Yes, it is fair to wonder why we had so many in two consecutive years and to suspect training or practice issues.

I feel our OL and QB affected our WR's last year. Our OL has often been poor at setting the pocket and protecting the QB. Our QB has been hampered by injuries both seasons and has had problems moving around in the pocket or out of the pocket to avoid batted balls. The OL is also to blame for that as well. Also, our play calling is to blame for not going to the short, quick passing game in several games, particularly the Michigan game. That aside, our WR's had their heads up their butts all last season with terrible drops. Even Vitale dropped two passes in a row where it looked like he wasn't trying as hard as he could have. I'd assign a certain degree of blame for the drops and poor play on Springer. However, I'm not going to assign a percentage of the blame because I don't know the real underlying causes of our poor performance. Some of those drops were so poor that I have to blame the players for not catching passes I could have caught myself.

Why would you think I would avoid that question? Why did I even need to answer it? I'd think it'd be obvious to those who've strapped it on.

I would say our OL has

HungryJack, everything in context my brother.

Yes we had some nice recruits last year, but as a whole, in context, It doesn't appear to have the same guru support as this year's or the previous year. From my observations, and admittedly the consent is manufactured by visiting the guru sites, it appears to me that this class is shaping up nicer than the previous class. And the previous class was a noticeable downgrade from the prior class. So, I think, or at least it appears, that last year's recruiting was a minor blip, and that this year's recruiting has us upward back to the 2014 class.

 

[hdhntr1]

Well, our recruiting class last year wasn't something that impressed me. It was all over the map with multiple de-commits that had to be patched up towards the end. That said, Springer only was fully responsible for 2 recruits out of 20, at least on the rivals info page. Please reference for me who rated Springer as our best recruiter last year because most of his guys decommitted and he was only left with nabbing 2 recruits. This year, imo, it looks like he has stepped up his game. I'm not going to just support underperforming coaches, Glades, and be comfortable, but like I said, at this point, there does seem to be a marked improvement in Springer's recruiting. Maybe Fitz laid down the law to the coaches when he had their back instead of displacing them. Fitz is 24/7 and relentless as a coach/recruiter, and it seems to me that this recruiting class is showing signs that the totality of his coaching staff this year is putting it all on the line in recruiting. I mean, with two awful years on the field, our recruiting this year can only be a witness to the fine recruiting job being done by the entire coaching staff.

Until this class is signed we still do not know. Last year we had some great early success but we had some decommits

Fitz has had more problems with talent and injuries while Walker had proven problems with coaching (see replacing Collby with Hank and Washington with Long).

Persa was the best QB we've ever had at NU, IMO. Baz was fabulous as well his last two years, Kafka and Bacher were also very good. Yes, our QB's have been hampered by a sketchy OL and injuries under FItz.

That's Venric Mark and Jackson versus Dawson, Herron, Wright, Sutton, and others. We seem to be stronger now, though. Same with DB play lately, with future NFL'ers in Igwebuike, Harris and perhaps VanHoose

If you don't have good linemen, you're not going anywhere in the Big Ten. There is no comparing Ulrich, Strief, Ndukwe, Essex, Rees with our OL under FItz or Castillo, Cofield, Wootton, Bryant, Gill, and Howard versus McEvilly, Odenigbo, Arnfelt, DiNardo, Lowry, and Browne.

I totally agree that with out good OL play, you are not going anywhere. But how much of it is talent recruited and how much is the development? For the most part, our OL recruiting under Fitz has been similar (at least with ratings and offers) to what it was under Walker. Want to know what is different with the OL? Patton was the coach of all those players you mentioned. One of his OLs gave up only 11 sacks in 512 passing attempts. Only Reese was recruited after 2001 and he in 2003. The rest of Walkers OL recruiting after 2001 was pretty nondescript. Another thing, while there were 9 recruiting classes (including 1999 and 2007) that Walker had a hand in that have gone completely through, only a couple Fitz classes have. So jury is still out but I would definitely say that Patton was a key factor.

Similar at QB. Basically, we have only had about 3 years of Fitz recruited QBs (and there was a lot of pounding and injury time that they suffered) while Walker guys were in place for about 12 years.

 

[IGNORE2]

There must be a reason why he's hanging on to the OC, WR, and OL coaches besides loyalty and fear of firing someone.

Why?

 

[IGNORE2]

[QUOTE="

So you'd fire your best salesman after a bad year when he's had serious issues with family health? I won't assign blame anywhere yet because I don't know all the circumstances affecting our play on the field. If Fitz can't figure out the problems and make proper personnel decisions, then he risks losing his job and all the coaches hit the bricks. You're telling Fitz how to do his job and he's got far more information than you do.

I'd question the recruiting process, what kind of talent have they targeted for receivers/athletes and how have they progressed. I'd also question the coaching drills and the psychology of the players and how it's been affected by coaching versus other influences (tough to do).

While injury rates suggest some systematic problem, I'd investigate to make sure I'm not firing coaches for events occurring purely by chance. All of our coaches are accountable. NU just isn't quick to fire them after one season of poor player performance. Type I errors are not good, either, but you seem to embrace braving such errors, figuring the next guy is better than the guy who had to coach players he didn't recruit or were injured by chance. Again, Fitz seems to see value in keeping them, even at the risk of losing his own job.

Yes. I do think coaches should jettison players who don't seem to care about football. They should be talked to and given a chance to rebound, but they shouldn't be wasting a scholarship on players who don't put forth the necessary effort. They hurt the team and other kids/prospects who work hard and could use those scholarships. I don't fear any loss of program reputation for doing so either.

My 'best' salesman (subjective if you are not basing it on production) would no longer be my best salesman after several bad years and I would send packing, if nothing had motivated his improvement. I would do this because I'm in the business of sales, not sympathy. And while sending one person to the street in search of a better fitting career may cause some hardship, it's better than allowing that one to adversely affect all the mouths needing to be fed by the success of my business.

But your analogy is flawed - the only tie between a salesman's family's health and his production is his mental ability and fortitude to check it at the door. Are you suggesting the coach has some family problems? The better analogy - would I fire my sales manager if there were horrible sales production in a department riddled with sick days? Hell YES. If I want to stay in business - for sure!!! Then I would examine our policies and practices and work on improving the sales force with the new sales manager.

And, yes, I'm am sharing my opinion about how Fitz does his job. Public figure, public job - comes with the territory. Or let him get a job downtown away from my view. If you stopped eating bugs and started coaching at NU, I would judge you to. Just like you, and many others, judge me and express your opinions about how I post. If I don't like it, I can take my opinions out of the public eye.

As for Fitz ever losing his job or anything related to his job security - every thing I read says otherwise. It appears that he is so safe that he is leaning on loyalty over results. And I don't like that approach.

But we can agree about your thoughts on the injuries. I think an investigation would be in order. And that some changes should result - whether that is hirings, firings, or whatever. Maybe it is the practice field,maybe the knee pads, maybe the air in Evanston - something is attributable to the in-ordinary number of injuries faced every year by NU football (and bball too). And then I publicize the changes - why not? Don't you want recruits, and idiots like me, to know you identified the problem, fixed it and expect fewer players to get hurt? Build trust among your recruits, their parents, your boosters and those that you hope will spend their money on your program.

And Glades - we are not talking about one bad year. In fact, the stronger argument can be made there was one good year in the mix of many bad years. Not NU Dark Era bad years, but D-1, B1G 10 football bad years. Or at least, with one deviation, the trend line has been pointing down for awhile. So I disagree - I see no evidence of accountability. Just because you say so doesn't make it so. I see accountability at other competitive programs - I see it with our bball program - I do not see it in our football program.

We definitely agree on your final point above.

 

[Gladeskat]

Until this class is signed we still do not know. Last year we had some great early success but we had some decommits

I totally agree that with out good OL play, you are not going anywhere. But how much of it is talent recruited and how much is the development? For the most part, our OL recruiting under Fitz has been similar (at least with ratings and offers) to what it was under Walker. Want to know what is different with the OL? Patton was the coach of all those players you mentioned. One of his OLs gave up only 11 sacks in 512 passing attempts. Only Reese was recruited after 2001 and he in 2003. The rest of Walkers OL recruiting after 2001 was pretty nondescript. Another thing, while there were 9 recruiting classes (including 1999 and 2007) that Walker had a hand in that have gone completely through, only a couple Fitz classes have. So jury is still out but I would definitely say that Patton was a key factor.

Similar at QB. Basically, we have only had about 3 years of Fitz recruited QBs (and there was a lot of pounding and injury time that they suffered) while Walker guys were in place for about 12 years.

Walker had little role in landing the 1999 class. If you do credit Walker with the 1999 and 2007 classes, that takes away several of the decent OL Fitz did land like Netter and Burkett and adds Austin King to Walker's tally. I'd say Walker's 2002 and 2003 classes were good in producing Keenan and Tripodi, and Thiry and Rees, all decent to good OL.

Yes, Fitz needs to graduate more classes, but look at the quality of QB's Walker landed who dominated the position for 10 years. Colter and TS were pretty good when healthy, but they don't compare to Kafka, Baz and Persa, each of whom turned in some of the best performances in B1G history. Hopefully, our QB's going forward will prove me wrong.

Similar in ratings and offers doesn't mean much when we can't produce an all-conference caliber player or successful pro. A 2-star like Thiry or Keenan were comparable to 4-star Ward. I give credit to Patton but I don't buy that coaching was the SOLE reason for our OL strength under Walker, either. We haven't had players with size, strength, and/or talent like Ndukwe, Strief and Essex on the OL in quite a while. Even in 2005 when we had to replace the entire OL except for Zach, we still put up record numbers on offense. Our 2006 offense was decent except for the QB position with Bacher injured.

I will admit that OL recruiting went into the crapper after 2003 under Walker and we had to play 3 walk-ons and move two guys to offense in 2006-2008, but we at least had the talent in the program to move around (and Keenan and Kennedy were good OL). Under Fitz, we've brought in both highly regarded kids and guys with MAC offers and still haven't had a guy drafted or play in the pros, let alone an all-B1G or all-American, since the Walker era. Injuries have frustrated a few players' development. Perhaps it's the stud OL that I miss more than anything. Fitz hasn't landed them and has let a boatload get away from him who wanted to play for NU and were right in his back yard (Karras, Epping, Feeney). I don't dismiss that our coaching and development could be contributing to the problem as well but I can't accurately assess that.

People keep saying our recruiting is improving but I think it's just star inflation and have yet to see the improvement on the field in terms of our Big Ten record. Walker's recruits posted 5-win Big Ten seasons in 2004, 2005, 2008, and 2009.

 

[Gladeskat]

Why?

I've answered, or more accurately, speculated on that many times. Now you're just going around in circles and you don't know the answer either, except that the Alec Baldwin approach to coaching ("Coffee is for closers") should apply after all disappointing seasons, even injury-ruined ones.

Who's on first?

 

[Turk]

Walker had little role in landing the 1999 class. If you do credit Walker with the 1999 and 2007 classes, that takes away several of the decent OL Fitz did land like Netter and Burkett and adds Austin King to Walker's tally. I'd say Walker's 2002 and 2003 classes were good in producing Keenan and Tripodi, and Thiry and Rees, all decent to good OL.

Yes, Fitz needs to graduate more classes, but look at the quality of QB's Walker landed who dominated the position for 10 years. Colter and TS were pretty good when healthy, but they don't compare to Kafka, Baz and Persa, each of whom turned in some of the best performances in B1G history. Hopefully, our QB's going forward will prove me wrong.

Similar in ratings and offers doesn't mean much when we can't produce an all-conference caliber player or successful pro. A 2-star like Thiry or Keenan were comparable to 4-star Ward. I give credit to Patton but I don't buy that coaching was the SOLE reason for our OL strength under Walker, either. We haven't had players with size, strength, and/or talent like Ndukwe, Strief and Essex on the OL in quite a while. Even in 2005 when we had to replace the entire OL except for Zach, we still put up record numbers on offense. Our 2006 offense was decent except for the QB position with Bacher injured.

I will admit that OL recruiting went into the crapper after 2003 under Walker and we had to play 3 walk-ons and move two guys to offense in 2006-2008, but we at least had the talent in the program to move around (and Keenan and Kennedy were good OL). Under Fitz, we've brought in both highly regarded kids and guys with MAC offers and still haven't had a guy drafted or play in the pros, let alone an all-B1G or all-American, since the Walker era. Injuries have frustrated a few players' development. Perhaps it's the stud OL that I miss more than anything. Fitz hasn't landed them and has let a boatload get away from him who wanted to play for NU and were right in his back yard (Karras, Epping, Feeney). I don't dismiss that our coaching and development could be contributing to the problem as well but I can't accurately assess that.

People keep saying our recruiting is improving but I think it's just star inflation and have yet to see the improvement on the field in terms of our Big Ten record. Walker's recruits posted 5-win Big Ten seasons in 2004, 2005, 2008, and 2009.

Glades, nobody can deny that the star rating improvements haven't paid off on the field. And I'm not saying I know the problem, but my lean is on the coaching and development strength team, as opposed to the talent coming in. One thing Fitz has done with OL recruiting that I noticed very early is that he has brought in guys with huge frames and the potential to really pack on the mass. Along the way, after 5 years in the program, they have failed to pack on the frames or strength needed to function on a division championship team. That's why I lean against the coaches on this one. The guys Fitz recruits HAVE THE FRAMES, but don't leave here with the sorta strength or frame where the NFL would even bother with them. Not sure if we aren't tough on these kids, or if we are just recruiting a bunch of soft suburban Illinois boys, dunno. I know blue collar guys like Kennan never left the weight room. And other than possibly Vitabile, I wouldn't recognize any of our OL as football players in street clothes. When you look at Vitabile, you think, "This guy must play football". I see football players come in all the time at the airport and you immediately can tell. Monsters like Radek, Porcelli, Jorgensen, Brian Smith, Warad, Dieters, didn't seem to gain anything other than modest strength in the program. Then again, Walker had his share of OL recruits who never put in the time. Guys like Boyle who came in with a big frame but never was hard nosed enough to advance himself.

 

[Gladeskat]

My 'best' salesman (subjective if you are not basing it on production) would no longer be my best salesman after several bad years and I would send packing, if nothing had motivated his improvement. I would do this because I'm in the business of sales, not sympathy. And while sending one person to the street in search of a better fitting career may cause some hardship, it's better than allowing that one to adversely affect all the mouths needing to be fed by the success of my business.

But your analogy is flawed - the only tie between a salesman's family's health and his production is his mental ability and fortitude to check it at the door. Are you suggesting the coach has some family problems? The better analogy - would I fire my sales manager if there were horrible sales production in a department riddled with sick days? Hell YES. If I want to stay in business - for sure!!! Then I would examine our policies and practices and work on improving the sales force with the new sales manager.

And, yes, I'm am sharing my opinion about how Fitz does his job. Public figure, public job - comes with the territory. Or let him get a job downtown away from my view. If you stopped eating bugs and started coaching at NU, I would judge you to. Just like you, and many others, judge me and express your opinions about how I post. If I don't like it, I can take my opinions out of the public eye.

As for Fitz ever losing his job or anything related to his job security - every thing I read says otherwise. It appears that he is so safe that he is leaning on loyalty over results. And I don't like that approach.

But we can agree about your thoughts on the injuries. I think an investigation would be in order. And that some changes should result - whether that is hirings, firings, or whatever. Maybe it is the practice field,maybe the knee pads, maybe the air in Evanston - something is attributable to the in-ordinary number of injuries faced every year by NU football (and bball too). And then I publicize the changes - why not? Don't you want recruits, and idiots like me, to know you identified the problem, fixed it and expect fewer players to get hurt? Build trust among your recruits, their parents, your boosters and those that you hope will spend their money on your program.

And Glades - we are not talking about one bad year. In fact, the stronger argument can be made there was one good year in the mix of many bad years. Not NU Dark Era bad years, but D-1, B1G 10 football bad years. Or at least, with one deviation, the trend line has been pointing down for awhile. So I disagree - I see no evidence of accountability. Just because you say so doesn't make it so. I see accountability at other competitive programs - I see it with our bball program - I do not see it in our football program.

We definitely agree on your final point above.

Yes, my analogy was flawed. Here's a better one...You let go of your record salesman or top production worker whose had a down year or two because of things out of his and your control, i.e., a power outage through an act of nature that has ruined product production and quality. Now your competitor picks him up and hammers your sales even more because you go out and hire Jack Lemmon. Pretty soon you're laying off all kinds of people and face being fired yourself for not recognizing and reacting appropriately to the situation at hand.

I don't think Fitz is leaning on loyalty or takes his job for granted at all. However, he is popular with alums and is valued for his image, rainmaking ability and PR spokesman role on top of his win-loss and academic record. You can see that on this board.

I disagree somewhat with his record pointing downward. He's had three 5-win seasons while enduring several injury-ruined seasons lately. Should he be blamed for not having a decent backup QB in 2010? Sure, but come on! He has to turn it around, but I don't see an significant downward trajectory like you do. Even in a horrible down season like last year (and last year was really bad and included poor coaching decisions), NU still beat Wisconsin and Notre Dame. We've been damn lucky in having two excellent coaches in Barnett and Walker. If you're the AD and you think Fitz's trajectory is definitely downward, then fire him and see who you can land to fill the position. I'll bet you'll immediately lose 5,000 season ticket holders. I also bet (better than 1:1 odds) that you won't see a 5-win Big Ten season or a bowl game for a while either and will be fired as AD.

 

[hdhntr1]

Walker had little role in landing the 1999 class. If you do credit Walker with the 1999 and 2007 classes, that takes away several of the decent OL Fitz did land like Netter and Burkett and adds Austin King to Walker's tally. I'd say Walker's 2002 and 2003 classes were good in producing Keenan and Tripodi, and Thiry and Rees, all decent to good OL.

Yes, Fitz needs to graduate more classes, but look at the quality of QB's Walker landed who dominated the position for 10 years. Colter and TS were pretty good when healthy, but they don't compare to Kafka, Baz and Persa, each of whom turned in some of the best performances in B1G history. Hopefully, our QB's going forward will prove me wrong.

Similar in ratings and offers doesn't mean much when we can't produce an all-conference caliber player or successful pro. A 2-star like Thiry or Keenan were comparable to 4-star Ward. I give credit to Patton but I don't buy that coaching was the SOLE reason for our OL strength under Walker, either. We haven't had players with size, strength, and/or talent like Ndukwe, Strief and Essex on the OL in quite a while. Even in 2005 when we had to replace the entire OL except for Zach, we still put up record numbers on offense. Our 2006 offense was decent except for the QB position with Bacher injured.

I will admit that OL recruiting went into the crapper after 2003 under Walker and we had to play 3 walk-ons and move two guys to offense in 2006-2008, but we at least had the talent in the program to move around (and Keenan and Kennedy were good OL). Under Fitz, we've brought in both highly regarded kids and guys with MAC offers and still haven't had a guy drafted or play in the pros, let alone an all-B1G or all-American, since the Walker era. Injuries have frustrated a few players' development. Perhaps it's the stud OL that I miss more than anything. Fitz hasn't landed them and has let a boatload get away from him who wanted to play for NU and were right in his back yard (Karras, Epping, Feeney). I don't dismiss that our coaching and development could be contributing to the problem as well but I can't accurately assess that.

People keep saying our recruiting is improving but I think it's just star inflation and have yet to see the improvement on the field in terms of our Big Ten record. Walker's recruits posted 5-win Big Ten seasons in 2004, 2005, 2008, and 2009.

I agree that there is star inflation but there is still reasonable improvement based on offers. But in a couple positions we just have not seen it on the field. OL is definitely an area where we have seemed to under perform. I pointed out Patton because the OL has been successful where he has been. We also seem to get a lot of injuries in the position keeping them from ever getting on the foeld. WR is another area that we do not seem to do as well as in the past. We have always had trouble recruiting the position but we gained an edge in moving QBs to the position as many of our best WR have been ex QBs. But we departed from that approach for a few years (2009-2012 recruiting classes where we also did not recruit QBs in a year or two so we could never afford to convert one) ) and when we tried to start back up the first guy had an illness and was never able to play. The last couple years we have started back with recruiting QBs and potential guys that could convert and we will see what happens.

 

[IGNORE2]

Yes, my analogy was flawed. Here's a better one...You let go of your record salesman or top production worker whose had a down year or two because of things out of his and your control, i.e., a power outage through an act of nature that has ruined product production and quality. Now your competitor picks him up and hammers your sales even more because you go out and hire Jack Lemmon. Pretty soon you're laying off all kinds of people and face being fired yourself for not recognizing and reacting appropriately to the situation at hand.

I don't think Fitz is leaning on loyalty or takes his job for granted at all. However, he is popular with alums and is valued for his image, rainmaking ability and PR spokesman role on top of his win-loss and academic record. You can see that on this board.

I disagree somewhat with his record pointing downward. He's had three 5-win seasons while enduring several injury-ruined seasons lately. Should he be blamed for not having a decent backup QB in 2010? Sure, but come on! He has to turn it around, but I don't see an significant downward trajectory like you do. Even in a horrible down season like last year (and last year was really bad and included poor coaching decisions), NU still beat Wisconsin and Notre Dame. We've been damn lucky in having two excellent coaches in Barnett and Walker. If you're the AD and you think Fitz's trajectory is definitely downward, then fire him and see who you can land to fill the position. I'll bet you'll immediately lose 5,000 season ticket holders. I also bet (better than 1:1 odds) that you won't see a 5-win Big Ten season or a bowl game for a while either and will be fired as AD.

Sorry - I was away a bit. Season record percentages under Fitz:

0.333
0.500
0.692
0.615
0.538
0.462
0.769
0.417
0.417

Assuming an outlier in 2012, the trend is either downward, or bottomed out. (A simple plot demonstrates the results clearly.) Either way, not good. Place this same record next to any competitive D-1 program and you have a coach on the hot seat and a bunch of new faces in the assistant ranks. Only at NU, or at a not particularly competitive program, do all the coaches stay and the HC is secure in his very well paid job.

I think your assertion depends on his replacement. I will go equally drastic. If they replaced Fitz with Bill Cowher (of course would never happen), I bet you gain 5,000 STHs and Bill surrounds himself with great assistants. Recruit rankings get an immediate bump, success will translate to the field and you woul dhave a very competitive program with more the simple post season aspirations.

Reality - First, Fitz does not need to be fired. The PR, rainmaking qualities have value. The assistants can go - some, all, whatever it takes. Put a strong budget together, create a committee to recruit and hire some proven assistant coaches and quietly encourage Fitz to embrace the new staff.

 

[hdhntr1]

Sorry - I was away a bit. Season record percentages under Fitz:

0.333
0.500
0.692
0.615
0.538
0.462
0.769
0.417
0.417

Assuming an outlier in 2012, the trend is either downward, or bottomed out. (A simple plot demonstrates the results clearly.) Either way, not good. Place this same record next to any competitive D-1 program and you have a coach on the hot seat and a bunch of new faces in the assistant ranks. Only at NU, or at a not particularly competitive program, do all the coaches stay and the HC is secure in his very well paid job.

I think your assertion depends on his replacement. I will go equally drastic. If they replaced Fitz with Bill Cowher (of course would never happen), I bet you gain 5,000 STHs and Bill surrounds himself with great assistants. Recruit rankings get an immediate bump, success will translate to the field and you woul dhave a very competitive program with more the simple post season aspirations.

Reality - First, Fitz does not need to be fired. The PR, rainmaking qualities have value. The assistants can go - some, all, whatever it takes. Put a strong budget together, create a committee to recruit and hire some proven assistant coaches and quietly encourage Fitz to embrace the new staff.

If the injuries that occurred the last couple years had not, I would feel that your position had merit. And I am not saying that a certain number cannot be anticipated. But the numbers we had and the concentration killed us. It is fair to ask to what extent the coaching staff had a hand but I am not sure how you would tell. But in general, when healthy, we performed pretty well.

Are there other potential issues? Of course. But overall, I would guess that injuries cost us at least two games (if not more) in each of the last two years. I mean, against IL, we were on 4th string CBs, we were deep on the list at DT, backup at QB, down several of our top WR, and a lot more. Think if we were not beat up we wouldn't have been ale to handle the Whining Ilini?

You ain't getting Cowher and very few others that would make the impact you suggest. So reality is that it is unlikely you would be able to get much if any improvement by replacing Fitz with anyone you could get here. That said, it does not mean that upgrades could not occur at the assistant level.

 

[IGNORE2]

If the injuries that occurred the last couple years had not, I would feel that your position had merit. And I am not saying that a certain number cannot be anticipated. But the numbers we had and the concentration killed us. It is fair to ask to what extent the coaching staff had a hand but I am not sure how you would tell. But in general, when healthy, we performed pretty well.

Are there other potential issues? Of course. But overall, I would guess that injuries cost us at least two games (if not more) in each of the last two years. I mean, against IL, we were on 4th string CBs, we were deep on the list at DT, backup at QB, down several of our top WR, and a lot more. Think if we were not beat up we wouldn't have been ale to handle the Whining Ilini?

You ain't getting Cowher and very few others that would make the impact you suggest. So reality is that it is unlikely you would be able to get much if any improvement by replacing Fitz with anyone you could get here. That said, it does not mean that upgrades could not occur at the assistant level.

I agree with most of what you say. And the Cowher thing was an extreme response to counter Glades contention.

The main disagreement I have is the notion that the injuries where bad luck, not due to a flaw. Also, I seem to recall some ugly games before the avalanch of injuries. So, I do feel that a combination of the downward trajectory and other failures demanded some change. Not necessarily at HC, but something.

They did nothing.

 

[willycat]

I agree with most of what you say. And the Cowher thing was an extreme response to counter Glades contention.

The main disagreement I have is the notion that the injuries where bad luck, not due to a flaw. Also, I seem to recall some ugly games before the avalanch of injuries. So, I do feel that a combination of the downward trajectory and other failures demanded some change. Not necessarily at HC, but something.

They did nothing.

Your right xyz about the fact that the glut of injuries happened after the Cal and NIU games. NU just wasn't ready to play in the first two games and that does fall on the coaches.

 

[shakes3858]

Your xyz about the fact that the glut of injuries happened after the Cal and NIU games. NU just wasn't ready to play in the first two games and that does fall on the coaches.

So Christian Jones didn't get hurt before the season? Venric Mark didn't transfer before the season? The loss of your two best play makers doesn't make the offense immediately before the season doesn't lead to needing to regroup? I also don't think Tony Jones was fighting off injuries from before the season. Cameron Dickerson had a broken hand or wrist in the spring which didn't appear to be fixed. Andrew Scanlan was out. Stephen Buckley was out.

The defense played phenomenal for the 1st half against NIU. Giving up 31 to CAL was a full 7 points less than their season average. Jaylen Prater was out. I believe Gibson was playing through injuries the entire year including those games.

Bottom line, I think there were lots of injuries from back in the spring, summer, and preseason camp. There was a reason Fitz didn't work the team hard in camp. We were beat up from the start.

 

[IGNORE2]

So Christian Jones didn't get hurt before the season? Venric Mark didn't transfer before the season? The loss of your two best play makers doesn't make the offense immediately before the season doesn't lead to needing to regroup? I also don't think Tony Jones was fighting off injuries from before the season. Cameron Dickerson had a broken hand or wrist in the spring which didn't appear to be fixed. Andrew Scanlan was out. Stephen Buckley was out.

The defense played phenomenal for the 1st half against NIU. Giving up 31 to CAL was a full 7 points less than their season average. Jaylen Prater was out. I believe Gibson was playing through injuries the entire year including those games.

Bottom line, I think there were lots of injuries from back in the spring, summer, and preseason camp. There was a reason Fitz didn't work the team hard in camp. We were beat up from the start.

Well, why did CJones get hurt? Was there anything that might have prevented it? Different workout or practice strategy? Why did VMark transfer? (And you know say that these where the two BEST playmekers. Was that your position back then? Do you still like them over the remaining 2014 roster? What about JJackson or 2014 KPrater?)

I don't recall big plans for Scanlan or Buckley (Have you heard of JJackson and the very crowded backfield heading into 2014? But, why were they out? Was there anything that might have prevented it? Different workout or practice strategy?

Bottom line, we lost, injuries continued to mount, nothing changed from the season before, or since.

 

[willycat]

So Christian Jones didn't get hurt before the season? Venric Mark didn't transfer before the season? The loss of your two best play makers doesn't make the offense immediately before the season doesn't lead to needing to regroup? I also don't think Tony Jones was fighting off injuries from before the season. Cameron Dickerson had a broken hand or wrist in the spring which didn't appear to be fixed. Andrew Scanlan was out. Stephen Buckley was out.

The defense played phenomenal for the 1st half against NIU. Giving up 31 to CAL was a full 7 points less than their season average. Jaylen Prater was out. I believe Gibson was playing through injuries the entire year including those games.

Bottom line, I think there were lots of injuries from back in the spring, summer, and preseason camp. There was a reason Fitz didn't work the team hard in camp. We were beat up from the start.

Come on Shakes everyone has injuries, besides excuses are for losers. Maybe if the coaching staff had played Jackson for the majority of snaps during the first two games, or if they had targeted Prater earlier the results would have been different. IMO Jackson is as good or better than Mark and Prater sure looked like a equal of T. Jones once the staff remembered he was on the team.

 

[shakes3858]

Come on Shakes everyone has injuries, besides excuses are for losers. Maybe if the coaching staff had played Jackson for the majority of snaps during the first two games, or if they had targeted Prater earlier the results would have been different. IMO Jackson is as good or better than Mark and Prater sure looked like a equal of T. Jones once the staff remembered he was on the team.

You really wanted last years plan to be to give the ball to a true freshman that was learning the playbook instead of a 5th year senior all-american?

Yes, injuries happen. Don't know how many teams had as many injuries as we did last year. Notre Dame did... they fell apart late in the year. Florida did a couple years ago and they lost to an FCS team... Injuries to 1/2 your team will make anyone fall apart.

 

[hdhntr1]

Well, why did CJones get hurt? Was there anything that might have prevented it? Different workout or practice strategy? Why did VMark transfer? (And you know say that these where the two BEST playmekers. Was that your position back then? Do you still like them over the remaining 2014 roster? What about JJackson or 2014 KPrater?)

I don't recall big plans for Scanlan or Buckley (Have you heard of JJackson and the very crowded backfield heading into 2014? But, why were they out? Was there anything that might have prevented it? Different workout or practice strategy?

Bottom line, we lost, injuries continued to mount, nothing changed from the season before, or since.

VM was the top playmaker from 2013 and was healthy coming in. Because of a suspension that was announced, he was going to miss the first couple games but that announcement was late. But the transfer looked to be pretty unexpected. He was a huge loss both on special teams and for the O. The two losses left the coaching staff scrambling to fill the holes and JJ was a welcome surprise. Didn't want to see as much thrust on him as was but fortunately like Sutton before him, he was able to handle it. Then the injuries mounted and by the end of the year, our team was a shadow of what it was supposed to be.

Was it all luck on the injuries? Good question but regardless, the injuries did happen and cost us games. Yes, you can always expect some injuries but not to the level we have had the last couple years.

 

[hdhntr1]

Come on Shakes everyone has injuries, besides excuses are for losers. Maybe if the coaching staff had played Jackson for the majority of snaps during the first two games, or if they had targeted Prater earlier the results would have been different. IMO Jackson is as good or better than Mark and Prater sure looked like a equal of T. Jones once the staff remembered he was on the team.

JJ was a pleasant surprise but we had an AA RB, ST guy that has to be replaced at the last minute. Yes everyone has injuries, but not the number and concentration we did. By the end of the season, we were on the second and third string QBs, second or third string DTs, second or third team LB, 4th team CB, third team WR and more. THat is a lot to lose.

 

[IGNORE2]

JJ was a pleasant surprise but we had an AA RB, ST guy that has to be replaced at the last minute. Yes everyone has injuries, but not the number and concentration we did. By the end of the season, we were on the second and third string QBs, second or third string DTs, second or third team LB, 4th team CB, third team WR and more. THat is a lot to lose.

VM was an AA punt returner, not running back. In 2012.

 

[willycat]

You really wanted last years plan to be to give the ball to a true freshman that was learning the playbook instead of a 5th year senior all-american?

Yes, injuries happen. Don't know how many teams had as many injuries as we did last year. Notre Dame did... they fell apart late in the year. Florida did a couple years ago and they lost to an FCS team... Injuries to 1/2 your team will make anyone fall apart.

Shakes don't know which All-American RB your referencing because Mark was no longer on the roster. You really don't think that Treyvon Green was a better choice then Jackson, do you? You do remember Sutton as freshman, right? The only game where NU was desimated by injuries and could blame a loss on that fact was vs. Illinois. Sure they missed Mark but more so on kick and punt returns, since he was not a every down kind of guy.

 

[hdhntr1]

VM was an AA punt returner, not running back. In 2012.

Would you have preferred if I has said AA ST, RB instead?He gained well over 1300 yards rushing (over 6 yds per carry)plus more than 100 yds receiving in 2012. He averaged touching the ball on O an average of about 22 times a game. That is a lot to lose. Plus he would know blocking assignments a lot better than a true Frosh. Basically he would have added a level of stability that we needed, especially at the beginning of the year. If he had been playing at the beginning of the year , it is unlikely we would have lost those games. With the loss of Jones as well, it left our O in disarray and the coaching staff scrambling to come up with something that worked. That hurt those first couple games but the coaching staff did right the ship.

 

[SciCat]

Would you have preferred if I has said AA ST, RB instead?He gained well over 1300 yards rushing (over 6 yds per carry)plus more than 100 yds receiving in 2012. He averaged touching the ball on O an average of about 22 times a game. That is a lot to lose. Plus he would know blocking assignments a lot better than a true Frosh. Basically he would have added a level of stability that we needed, especially at the beginning of the year. If he had been playing at the beginning of the year , it is unlikely we would have lost those games. With the loss of Jones as well, it left our O in disarray and the coaching staff scrambling to come up with something that worked. That hurt those first couple games but the coaching staff did right the ship.

I think he would prefer that you not disagree with him.

 

[hdhntr1]

Shakes don't know which All-American RB your referencing because Mark was no longer on the roster. You really don't think that Treyvon Green was a better choice then Jackson, do you? You do remember Sutton as freshman, right? The only game where NU was desimated by injuries and could blame a loss on that fact was vs. Illinois. Sure they missed Mark but more so on kick and punt returns, since he was not a every down kind of guy.

VM was supposed to be on the roster. It was announced he was suspended for the first couple games pretty late and then the decision to transfer very late. THis cause a lot of shuffling and re thinking the O at the last minute. TG did look like he would be the better choice at the beginning of the year. He had a pretty good season the year before and would have a significant edge in knowing blocking assignments. And while you say VM was not an every down back, he did average about 22 touches per game on O in 2012. That is as close to every down back as we had.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Well, why did CJones get hurt? Was there anything that might have prevented it? Different workout or practice strategy? Why did VMark transfer? (And you know say that these where the two BEST playmekers. Was that your position back then? Do you still like them over the remaining 2014 roster? What about JJackson or 2014 KPrater?)

I don't recall big plans for Scanlan or Buckley (Have you heard of JJackson and the very crowded backfield heading into 2014? But, why were they out? Was there anything that might have prevented it? Different workout or practice strategy?

Bottom line, we lost, injuries continued to mount, nothing changed from the season before, or since.

In order... Because CJones had a freak non-contact injury while jogging back to the huddle in Kenosha, no, no, very good reasons that aren't public, yes it was pretty clear that CJones and Mark were the offense's best playmakers heading into the 2014 season, yes, yes, JJackson probably would have redshirted in 2014 if Mark were around and KPrater was a serviceable-at-best wideout forced into a bigger role due to injury and ineffectiveness from other wideouts.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

There was a 2 game suspension for a violation of team rules. Then Mark had an academic violation and was suspended for the entire season. This was 2 different things.


He could've stayed used a redshirt for his 5th year and applied to make his 4th year a medical redshirt. Instead he transferred (I can't blame him) and seeing as both issues were pretty minor in my opinion, I'm very glad NU readmitted him on scholarship to finish his degree.

Eh... not exactly true. At all.

 

[IGNORE2]

Would you have preferred if I has said AA ST, RB instead?He gained well over 1300 yards rushing (over 6 yds per carry)plus more than 100 yds receiving in 2012. He averaged touching the ball on O an average of about 22 times a game. That is a lot to lose. Plus he would know blocking assignments a lot better than a true Frosh. Basically he would have added a level of stability that we needed, especially at the beginning of the year. If he had been playing at the beginning of the year , it is unlikely we would have lost those games. With the loss of Jones as well, it left our O in disarray and the coaching staff scrambling to come up with something that worked. That hurt those first couple games but the coaching staff did right the ship.

VM reached those numbers one year out of four. He was not the next Sutton, or any of the other greeat RBs in recent history (DA, DA2). Amazing how the legend grows. And injuries are part of the question at issue - how did the system affect the occurrences, year in and year out.

And then you say the coaches righted the ship? An unimpressive win against Western at home (they were not good - not at all)? A win over a 7-6 PSU? A very nice upset over Wisconsin before getting pummeled by MN and Neb. The best part of the righted ship was the annihilation by a 7-6 Iowa squad.

Listen, they gave us an ugly but bragging rights win over ND and a wonderful upset over Wisky, but the rest of the season was not pretty.

 

[IGNORE2]

VM was supposed to be on the roster. It was announced he was suspended for the first couple games pretty late and then the decision to transfer very late. THis cause a lot of shuffling and re thinking the O at the last minute. TG did look like he would be the better choice at the beginning of the year. He had a pretty good season the year before and would have a significant edge in knowing blocking assignments. And while you say VM was not an every down back, he did average about 22 touches per game on O in 2012. That is as close to every down back as we had.

VM averaged a very pedestrian 3.1 YPC in 2013. Every year, his YPC dropped. He scored no TDs. He returned one KO and no punts. And, odds are just as likely that his numbers would have been equally pedestrian in the backfield for 2014. VM fed off Colter's ability to run - those two were dynamic. But with the OL of last year, the hobbling TS, VM probably would not have found the same success without that option play. And the ankle break may never afforded him the ability he had in 2012, with Colter and that option play. JJ did not need the option to bust through and get some yards.

 

[thewildcat2011]

VM reached those numbers one year out of four. He was not the next Sutton, or any of the other greeat RBs in recent history (DA, DA2). Amazing how the legend grows. And injuries are part of the question at issue - how did the system affect the occurrences, year in and year out.

And then you say the coaches righted the ship? An unimpressive win against Western at home (they were not good - not at all)? A win over a 7-6 PSU? A very nice upset over Wisconsin before getting pummeled by MN and Neb. The best part of the righted ship was the annihilation by a 7-6 Iowa squad.

Listen, they gave us an ugly but bragging rights win over ND and a wonderful upset over Wisky, but the rest of the season was not pretty.

Pummeled by MN? Hardly. That game was tied in the 4th quarter.

We were also leading Neb at half time. Unfortunately, a couple more of our offensive weapons went down in the 2nd and 3rd quarter and we had 0 offensive momentum.

Team fell apart against Iowa completely. Then we played an ugly game against UM that we easily could have won. Two wins after that with injuries mounting. Then final collapse against ILL.

It wasn't a good season, but there were hardly any games that we were out of at half or even after 3. Probably Iowa is the only one.

 

[hdhntr1]

VM reached those numbers one year out of four. He was not the next Sutton, or any of the other greeat RBs in recent history (DA, DA2). Amazing how the legend grows. And injuries are part of the question at issue - how did the system affect the occurrences, year in and year out.

And then you say the coaches righted the ship? An unimpressive win against Western at home (they were not good - not at all)? A win over a 7-6 PSU? A very nice upset over Wisconsin before getting pummeled by MN and Neb. The best part of the righted ship was the annihilation by a 7-6 Iowa squad.

Listen, they gave us an ugly but bragging rights win over ND and a wonderful upset over Wisky, but the rest of the season was not pretty.

Talk about a ridiculous comment. He was a WR in his first two years (total 24 rushes) and I believe those were end arounds (about 1-2 a game) . He had onefull year as a RB and that was 2012 where he rushed for 1366 yds and over 6 ypc. In 2013 he was only in parts of two games because he came into the season with a broken leg, even in the two games he took part in, he was injured. Let's break your leg as see how well you run.

The coaches adjusted to what they had which was far less than what they thought they were going to have coming into the season. THe O improved as they got a handle on it but it seemed like they lost another weapon just about every game.

 

[shakes3858]

Eh... not exactly true. At all.

Then my info was bad and I deleted my post to keep bad info about someone off the board. Mind deleting your quote of my bad info?

 

[shakes3858]

I think he would prefer that you not disagree with him.

No, he's just here to troll, so he would actually prefer for you to disagree with him. Best thing to do is to take the high road and not respond.