Recruiting differences between carmody and Collins.

[T_Levine]

Again. From my source.

Fascinating that carmody basically did not recruit. He almost never left Chicago and if he did he flew commercial. In his mind northwestern itself should have been the selling point. Maybe that works in the Ivy League. Who knows.

Collins has told his assistants hit the pavement. Go anywhere and everywhere. Don't expect someone to come to us. And that requires charter flying which costs money. Hence the increase in fun raising from Collins day one.

I'm sure most knew some or all of this.

 

[Hungry Jack]

Where does the "varnish" come from. We all know whom it references but why the weird alias?

 

[T_Levine]

Really bad autocorrect

 

[cometclear]

Again. From my source.

Fascinating that carmody basically did not recruit. He almost never left Chicago and if he did he flew commercial. In his mind northwestern itself should have been the selling point. Maybe that works in the Ivy League. Who knows.

Collins has told his assistants hit the pavement. Go anywhere and everywhere. Don't expect someone to come to us. And that requires charter flying which costs money. Hence the increase in fun raising from Collins day one.

I'm sure most knew some or all of this.

Please do a player-player comparison of actual recruiting rankings for Carmody's recruits vs. Collins' recruits. Not made-up, revised individual rankings, but actual ones.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

Please do a player-player comparison of actual recruiting rankings for Carmody's recruits vs. Collins' recruits. Not made-up, revised individual rankings, but actual ones.

Are you inferring that Carmody's recruiting was on par with Collins?

 

[Max_Power]

yes let's please revisit this issue

 

[Medill90]

yes let's please revisit this issue

It's like a colonoscopy....done on a regular basis....rarely if ever any news

and as pleasant

 

[Gladeskat]

It's like a colonoscopy....done on a regular basis....rarely if ever any news

and as pleasant

Lots of gas involved, too.

 

[hdhntr1]

Again. From my source.

Fascinating that carmody basically did not recruit. He almost never left Chicago and if he did he flew commercial. In his mind northwestern itself should have been the selling point. Maybe that works in the Ivy League. Who knows.

Collins has told his assistants hit the pavement. Go anywhere and everywhere. Don't expect someone to come to us. And that requires charter flying which costs money. Hence the increase in fun raising from Collins day one.

I'm sure most knew some or all of this.

Carmody recruited???

 

[cometclear]

Are you inferring that Carmody's recruiting was on par with Collins?

You mean "implying."

If by "on par," you mean, "roughly equal based upon the individual rankings of recruits," then, yes, I do mean that. Each time I have seen this revisited here, the combatants either demonstrate fuzzy memories at best, or, at worst, outright fibbery in attaching numbers to Carmody's recruits.

Collins is doing great things. He has a long way to go in recruiting. The incoming class is miles away from where he needs to be and aside from Law, more recruits in the 125-250 range look strikingly similar to Carmody recruits in the 125-250 range.

 

[scru]

You mean "implying."

If by "on par," you mean, "roughly equal based upon the individual rankings of recruits," then, yes, I do mean that. Each time I have seen this revisited here, the combatants either demonstrate fuzzy memories at best, or, at worst, outright fibbery in attaching numbers to Carmody's recruits.

Collins is doing great things. He has a long way to go in recruiting. The incoming class is miles away from where he needs to be and aside from Law, more recruits in the 125-250 range look strikingly similar to Carmody recruits in the 125-250 range.

And Carmody brought the team to the brink of getting in the tourney, but never broke the rock. Collins and his recruits have accomplished this. He's taken the program that next step forward. Now with new facilities and tons of media exposure, he needs to take the next one. There are no leaps here, just steps towards the goal. Anyone expecting leaps should come to understand that from where we are now, to achieve a leap (vs a step) would require "shady" or downright illegal moves. I'm not for that at all. Let's let CCC take us the steps towards being the program we want while appreciating the steps Carmody took before him. It's a process.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

If by "on par," you mean, "roughly equal based upon the individual rankings of recruits," then, yes, I do mean that.

If the recruiting, as you say, is the same, then he's simply a better coach. I mean, it's one or the other...

 

[cometclear]

If the recruiting, as you say, is the same, then he's simply a better coach. I mean, it's one or the other...

He appears to be, but I was addressing the fibbery and revisionist history with regards to recruiting. Collins will have to do much better on the recruiting trail to become a top 30 program year in and year out.

 

[cometclear]

And Carmody brought the team to the brink of getting in the tourney, but never broke the rock. Collins and his recruits have accomplished this. He's taken the program that next step forward. Now with new facilities and tons of media exposure, he needs to take the next one. There are no leaps here, just steps towards the goal. Anyone expecting leaps should come to understand that from where we are now, to achieve a leap (vs a step) would require "shady" or downright illegal moves. I'm not for that at all. Let's let CCC take us the steps towards being the program we want while appreciating the steps Carmody took before him. It's a process.

After four years, recruiting should be substantially better than under Carmody and it's simply not. Collins appears to be a better coach, which explains the improvement. After all, many of you folks have informed me that Carmody was indifferent to recruiting.

I wouldn't broach the subject of "shadiness" at this particular time. If one-quarter of what Vassar alleges is true, that is quite "shady." As someone who is also an ND fan, after reading the stories and Ryan Humphery's apparent complicity in the affair, I now wish Brey would have tabbed one of any number of former ND players who were possibilities instead of Humphery. Everywhere but here in this little bubble, the reaction to the story and the documentation supplied by Vassar has not reflected well on the school.

 

[scru]

He appears to be, but I was addressing the fibbery and revisionist history with regards to recruiting. Collins will have to do much better on the recruiting trail to become a top 30 program year in and year out.

I think "much better" is unnecessarily drastic. I'd be thrilled to see improvement, but I also believe that consistency is possible as long as he identifies and lands players that fit his culture and play style. I think of greater importance is how the kids develop in the program. Most of this is on them to have the heart and discipline. This is where culture comes in and having it passed from class to class. I think this is where Collins has really made strides with the program. We'll see this season how that is carrying. Will be really interesting!

 

[scru]

After four years, recruiting should be substantially better than under Carmody and it's simply not. Collins appears to be a better coach, which explains the improvement. After all, many of you folks have informed me that Carmody was indifferent to recruiting.

I wouldn't broach the subject of "shadiness" at this particular time. If one-quarter of what Vassar alleges is true, that is quite "shady." As someone who is also an ND fan, after reading the stories and Ryan Humphery's apparent complicity in the affair, I now wish Brey would have tabbed one of any number of former ND players who were possibilities instead of Humphery. Everywhere but here in this little bubble, the reaction to the story and the documentation supplied by Vassar has not reflected well on the school.

I've seen very little reaction, period. And, in case you've forgotten, in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. You're working with one side only. Ease up.

 

[mikewebb68]

 

[Walker Fan]

In three full years, Collins has recruited 3 4-star players in Law, Falzon and Ivanauskas. Where we Carmody's 4-star recruits? Crawford was a 3 star who has to send his recruiting tape to Evanston to get Tavares Hardy to look at it and recruit him. Cobb was the only 4 star recruit that Carmody recruited band he never panned out due to his injuries and that was in 13 years. Carmody never recruited athletic big guys. In three recruiting classes: Pardon is a more athletic big than any other player in Carmody's 13 year tenure. During Carmody's tenure, NU never recruited a PF. In three seasons, NU recruited real PF in Skelly and Falzon. NU successfully recruited a talented center with 7 Big 10 offers in Barrett Benson. Carmody simply never recruited guys with other Big 10 offers. Collins recruited an all time scoring leader in Isiah Brown in the state of Washington. Carmody never recruited guys from the US who came from a state as far away as Washington because that would require a lot of work on the recruiting trail. Collins has an eye for basketball talent and Carmody does not. If you can not figure that Collins is a better recruiter and coach who develops talent you have no clue what a real basketball player looks like. Collins' roster next season will be more athletic and deeper than any NU team in the past 30 years. Too bad some still can't figure that out.

 

[cometclear]

I think "much better" is unnecessarily drastic. I'd be thrilled to see improvement, but I also believe that consistency is possible as long as he identifies and lands players that fit his culture and play style. I think of greater importance is how the kids develop in the program. Most of this is on them to have the heart and discipline. This is where culture comes in and having it passed from class to class. I think this is where Collins has really made strides with the program. We'll see this season how that is carrying. Will be really interesting!

I have already acknowledged those changes. I think he's the better coach, no question, but a one-player class with a guy outside the top 100 in year four isn't progress in that department and there's no bit of contortions that will make it otherwise.

 

[cometclear]

In three full years, Collins has recruited 3 4-star players in Law, Falzon and Ivanauskas. Where we Carmody's 4-star recruits? Crawford was a 3 star who has to send his recruiting tape to Evanston to get Tavares Hardy to look at it and recruit him. Cobb was the only 4 star recruit that Carmody recruited band he never panned out due to his injuries and that was in 13 years. Carmody never recruited athletic big guys. In three recruiting classes: Pardon is a more athletic big than any other player in Carmody's 13 year tenure. During Carmody's tenure, NU never recruited a PF. In three seasons, NU recruited real PF in Skelly and Falzon. NU successfully recruited a talented center with 7 Big 10 offers in Barrett Benson. Carmody simply never recruited guys with other Big 10 offers. Collins recruited an all time scoring leader in Isiah Brown in the state of Washington. Carmody never recruited guys from the US who came from a state as far away as Washington because that would require a lot of work on the recruiting trail. Collins has an eye for basketball talent and Carmody does not. If you can not figure that Collins is a better recruiter and coach who develops talent you have no clue what a real basketball player looks like. Collins' roster next season will be more athletic and deeper than any NU team in the past 30 years. Too bad some still can't figure that out.

You're the King of Fibbery in this area. Just off the top of my head, Kyle Rowley and Luka Mirkovic both had offers from Purdue and Nick Fruendt had an offer from Wisconsin. It would behoove you to stop talking out of your rectum on this because if you keep on, I'll start digging and produce all sorts of evidence to the contrary of your fibbing.

 

[scru]

I have already acknowledged those changes. I think he's the better coach, no question, but a one-player class with a guy outside the top 100 in year four isn't progress in that department and there's no bit of contortions that will make it otherwise.

2017 cycle ain't over yet... and I'm certainly very optimistic about what he can do with the 2018 class. Seems odd to me to be negative about something before it's even arrived. I imagine it is a somewhat sad way to live, seeing and expecting something bad. I'd rather be positive and enjoy the process, especially at this time of year where anything can still happen. It's fun!

Also, I think AG is a very undervalued recruit, much like BMac, Lindsey, Pardon, and on and on... Based on the evidence to date, I'd say that CCC and staff do a pretty damn good job at identifying talent that are not obvious to others at the top of a Rivals 150. Small sample size, granted, but a high hit rate so far. Watch the tape on AG... kid is seriously athletic, ahead of the curve physically compared to other recruits, and was invited to the Jordan Brand Classic with some nice company.

Anyway, don't waste your time with this Pollyanna... live how you wanna!

 

[T_Levine]

The point of my original post, and based on a conversation I had recently with someone with knowledge, indicated that carmody just wasn't a recruiter. He was a basketball coach first and last. We had a pipeline to Europe that he got some talent and clearly without hardy who knows what we would have had for talent.

Collins knows that it all starts with recruiting and recruiting takes time, face time and lots of hard work.

 

[harkesnu]

You're the King of Fibbery in this area. Just off the top of my head, Kyle Rowley and Luka Mirkovic both had offers from Purdue and Nick Fruendt had an offer from Wisconsin. It would behoove you to stop talking out of your rectum on this because if you keep on, I'll start digging and produce all sorts of evidence to the contrary of your fibbing.

You realize you just used Kyle Rowley, Luka Mirkovic, and Nick Fruendt to bolster your argument, right?

 

[Sec.112]

...but I was addressing the fibbery and revisionist history with regards to recruiting ...

How does this conversation continue?!? Are we really discussing the recruiting capability of Carmody versus Collins? You're kidding, right?

Sure, let's discuss the "revisionist history" and fuzzy memories. It's amazing how every time Carmody needs to be defended, the first six or seven years are ignored.

But let's talk about the first seven years of Carmody, top 100s and recruiting. We have:

* Coble - Not anywhere near a top 100 rating, but let's give him credit for it.
* Hachad - Once again, not top 100, but he was recruited by Kansas, Baylor and Marquette.
* Big Mike Thompson - Let's include his 13 games and top 60 rating.
* Vukusic - He deserves top 100 also, but let's not forget he was signed sight unseen - not exactly recruiting genius.

Can we agree Tim Doyle, TJ Parker, Vince Scott, Sterling Williams, Bernard Cote and Brandon Lee never sniffed the top 100?

So in Carmody's first SEVEN years, I offer an INCREDIBLY GENEROUS four top 100s.

In Collins' first FOUR years, we have:

* Law
* Ivanaukus - #89 Rivals with offers from Purdue, Michigan, UCLA plus others.
* Falzon - #75 ESPN and #92 Rivals
* Benson - #109 Rivals with offers from Illinois, IU, Purdue, Vandy and Stanford.

And that doesn't include BMac who very easily falls under the same category as Vukusic of vastly under-recruited.

You really think that's a similar comparison?

If you want to add Shurna, Crawford, Cobb, Thompson, Mirkovic and Rowley to the discussion, that's great. But can we wait until Collins' sixth or seventh year so we can get Carmody handicap something in the ballpark of a reasonable comparison? Hell, the Shurna list is more than half the number of TOTAL Collins recruits so far.

 

[Walker Fan]

NU never won a recruiting battle for a guy with 7 Big 10 offers. That is referring to the recruiting of Barrett Benson who according to all reports had offers from 1. NU, 2. Illinois, 3. Purdue, 4. UNL, 5. Iowa, 6. Penn St. and one other school. That is a fact. Keep on bringing up Freundt, Crowley and Mirkovic and I will continue to LOL.

 

[willycat]

After four years, recruiting should be substantially better than under Carmody and it's simply not. Collins appears to be a better coach, which explains the improvement. After all, many of you folks have informed me that Carmody was indifferent to recruiting.

I wouldn't broach the subject of "shadiness" at this particular time. If one-quarter of what Vassar alleges is true, that is quite "shady." As someone who is also an ND fan, after reading the stories and Ryan Humphery's apparent complicity in the affair, I now wish Brey would have tabbed one of any number of former ND players who were possibilities instead of Humphery. Everywhere but here in this little bubble, the reaction to the story and the documentation supplied by Vassar has not reflected well on the school.

First, in Collins first four years he coached NU into the NCAA Tournament. Carmody in 13 years never got NU there. Secondly the Vassar "thing" is far from over and your looking at just one side of the argument is obviously biased and I don't think it's been splashed on the front pages of the Chicago daily's. As a ND fan, may I suggest that you concern yourself with the alcohol and drug doings by their players, the death of a student because he was ordered to tape a practice from a high location on a very windy day and finally the sexual assault of a female student by a football player and the subsequent cover up by the university. Seems to me that you have a few negative things to keep you busy in South Bend and not worrying whether Collins is a better recruiter and coach then Carmody. He is, give it a rest.

 

[thewildcat2011]

I'm going to guess that a poll of 100 college basketball fans would reveal that at most 10 even know who JV is let alone have an opinion on it. This little bubble is quite literally the only place I've heard the situation discussed.

 

[Medill90]

The point of my original post, and based on a conversation I had recently with someone with knowledge, indicated that carmody just wasn't a recruiter. He was a basketball coach first and last. We had a pipeline to Europe that he got some talent and clearly without hardy who knows what we would have had for talent.

Collins knows that it all starts with recruiting and recruiting takes time, face time and lots of hard work.

You had to know this was the thread you would get. Include Collins and Carmody in a topic and this is pretty much it.

 

[FeralFelidae]

The point of my original post, and based on a conversation I had recently with someone with knowledge, indicated that carmody just wasn't a recruiter. He was a basketball coach first and last.

And his coaching focus was on offense, with defense almost an afterthought. I guess the defensive side of coaching wasn't cerebral enough to engage his super intellect.

I love the intensity that Collins brings to the defensive side of the game. It takes work and tenacity, not just schemes.

 

[jjjjjjj]

You're the King of Fibbery in this area. Just off the top of my head, Kyle Rowley and Luka Mirkovic both had offers from Purdue and Nick Fruendt had an offer from Wisconsin. It would behoove you to stop talking out of your rectum on this because if you keep on, I'll start digging and produce all sorts of evidence to the contrary of your fibbing.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you come across as such a raging a**hole, I couldn't resist "digging" myself.

Just adding up and averaging the 247 ratings for NU commits back to 2003 (the first year available), Carmody's came out to .835, while Collins' so far are at .874. That's not an enormous difference, but it is statistically significant, given that most high-major recruits are in the 80s or 90s.

 

[Max_Power]

I am really going to do this:

Why can't people just thank Carmody for what he did and move on? He made NU competitive and fielded a three or four teams that were tournament worthy before defections / discipline / injury gutted them. He brought in some nice players and he had a really nice long tenure where he made lots of money, represented the university well and never even sniffed an NCAA violation that I have seen. He's a nice guy who was fun to talk too. Honestly, I have always been amazed that such a thing as a Carmody hater could even exist.

But no one can suggest in retrospect that it was not the right move by Phillips to move on and the best move of Phillips tenure as AD to hire Collins. Collins and his staff have been amazing to date at upgrading the roster and believing that NU could play fierce man to man defense and pick and roll offense. Trust me, I had huge doubts he could make this work. As a recruiter, in the first four years, Collins recruited 4 starters who have been awesome and have racked up accomplishments beyond their rankings, excepting maybe Law who is certainly playing to the level of his ranking. That's really good recruiting. He got really lucky too with Pardon and Lindsey who have played well beyond what any recruiting service would have ever projected. Why, because Collins and his staff are really good coaches in addition to being good recruiters. But part of being a good recruiter it not just landing top 100 kids, its landing kids who are better than their rankings. Funny because in that sense, I always thought Carmody was a good recruiter because he always managed to find kids for his system who could compete.

Funny story a friend who used to coach at the college level recently told me about recruiting. He said that that when Beilein was at West Virginia, they did not go after top 100 kids, they tried to recruit the MAC All Star team.

That all said, I think the true test of Collins as a recruiter is 2018. The playing field is level with his peers in terms of NCAA and facilities so lets see what he can do.

 

[Hungry Jack]

Carmody is a Christ-figure around here. He gave his life and died on the backboard so that NU could resurrect itself and live to see the Tournament. We owe our fan lives to BC. Don't you guys get it?

SARCASM ALERT. ARM YOURSELF.

 

[hdhntr1]

NU never won a recruiting battle for a guy with 7 Big 10 offers. That is referring to the recruiting of Barrett Benson who according to all reports had offers from 1. NU, 2. Illinois, 3. Purdue, 4. UNL, 5. Iowa, 6. Penn St. and one other school. That is a fact. Keep on bringing up Freundt, Crowley and Mirkovic and I will continue to LOL.

Actually 6 or 7 other BIG offers that Benson had is probably greater than the total other BIG offers of all of Carmody's recruits over the 13 years combined. Did he really out recruit another BIG coach for a guy, ever? I'm sure there had to be a guy or so, right? Oh ya, Curletti had a opportunity to walk on at MSU. That counts right? NOT.

BC was a solid O coach and he did get some guys to come and play in his system but as a recruiter he left a lot to be desired.

 

[hdhntr1]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you come across as such a raging a**hole, I couldn't resist "digging" myself.

Just adding up and averaging the 247 ratings for NU commits back to 2003 (the first year available), Carmody's came out to .835, while Collins' so far are at .874. That's not an enormous difference, but it is statistically significant, given that most high-major recruits are in the 80s or 90s.

Remember how excited we were to get a 3 star recruit with BC? Now we save that excitement for 4 star recruits.

 

[hdhntr1]

I am really going to do this:

Why can't people just thank Carmody for what he did and move on? He made NU competitive and fielded a three or four teams that were tournament worthy before defections / discipline / injury gutted them. He brought in some nice players and he had a really nice long tenure where he made lots of money, represented the university well and never even sniffed an NCAA violation that I have seen. He's a nice guy who was fun to talk too. Honestly, I have always been amazed that such a thing as a Carmody hater could even exist.

But no one can suggest in retrospect that it was not the right move by Phillips to move on and the best move of Phillips tenure as AD to hire Collins. Collins and his staff have been amazing to date at upgrading the roster and believing that NU could play fierce man to man defense and pick and roll offense. Trust me, I had huge doubts he could make this work. As a recruiter, in the first four years, Collins recruited 4 starters who have been awesome and have racked up accomplishments beyond their rankings, excepting maybe Law who is certainly playing to the level of his ranking. That's really good recruiting. He got really lucky too with Pardon and Lindsey who have played well beyond what any recruiting service would have ever projected. Why, because Collins and his staff are really good coaches in addition to being good recruiters. But part of being a good recruiter it not just landing top 100 kids, its landing kids who are better than their rankings. Funny because in that sense, I always thought Carmody was a good recruiter because he always managed to find kids for his system who could compete.

Funny story a friend who used to coach at the college level recently told me about recruiting. He said that that when Beilein was at West Virginia, they did not go after top 100 kids, they tried to recruit the MAC All Star team.

That all said, I think the true test of Collins as a recruiter is 2018. The playing field is level with his peers in terms of NCAA and facilities so lets see what he can do.

Don't hate BC. Never did. But it was obvious he had shortcomings and biggest was his willingness and desire to recruit. He did pretty well for the talent we had and that is fine till you recognize that the reason we did not have more talent was that he did not bring it in.. And that lack of talent is a big reason D was never one of out strengths. So I hank him for bringing us up to respectability, but it was time to move from B to C and now we are there. No time to go from C to D where we appear more regularly in the Dance.

 

[hdhntr1]

Carmody is a Christ-figure around here. He gave his life and died on the backboard so that NU could resurrect itself and live to see the Tournament. We owe our fan lives to BC. Don't you guys get it?

SARCASM ALERT. ARM YOURSELF.

No

 

[hdhntr1]

And his coaching focus was on offense, with defense almost an afterthought. I guess the defensive side of coaching wasn't cerebral enough to engage his super intellect.

I love the intensity that Collins brings to the defensive side of the game. It takes work and tenacity, not just schemes.

It was really we never had enough talent and depth to try to be a defensive force.

 

[willycat]

I am really going to do this:

Why can't people just thank Carmody for what he did and move on? He made NU competitive and fielded a three or four teams that were tournament worthy before defections / discipline / injury gutted them. He brought in some nice players and he had a really nice long tenure where he made lots of money, represented the university well and never even sniffed an NCAA violation that I have seen. He's a nice guy who was fun to talk too. Honestly, I have always been amazed that such a thing as a Carmody hater could even exist.

But no one can suggest in retrospect that it was not the right move by Phillips to move on and the best move of Phillips tenure as AD to hire Collins. Collins and his staff have been amazing to date at upgrading the roster and believing that NU could play fierce man to man defense and pick and roll offense. Trust me, I had huge doubts he could make this work. As a recruiter, in the first four years, Collins recruited 4 starters who have been awesome and have racked up accomplishments beyond their rankings, excepting maybe Law who is certainly playing to the level of his ranking. That's really good recruiting. He got really lucky too with Pardon and Lindsey who have played well beyond what any recruiting service would have ever projected. Why, because Collins and his staff are really good coaches in addition to being good recruiters. But part of being a good recruiter it not just landing top 100 kids, its landing kids who are better than their rankings. Funny because in that sense, I always thought Carmody was a good recruiter because he always managed to find kids for his system who could compete.

Funny story a friend who used to coach at the college level recently told me about recruiting. He said that that when Beilein was at West Virginia, they did not go after top 100 kids, they tried to recruit the MAC All Star team.

That all said, I think the true test of Collins as a recruiter is 2018. The playing field is level with his peers in terms of NCAA and facilities so lets see what he can do.

First I try and make a point of not hating people, except maybe one that is currently living part time in Wash. D.C. Secondly the university thanked Carmody with millions of dollars over 13 years and in that time he never got NU in the NCAA Tourney. Could you tell me when any NU BB coach sniffed a NCAA violation or how you can even suggest that he was a good recruiter. Glad you now agree that Phillips hiring of Collins was a good idea but think it should have happened 5 or 6 years sooner. I think that Collins will continue to be one of the best recruiters in NU history and why you think he still has to prove himself as such is a bit incredulous.

 

[Styre]

Could you tell me when any NU BB coach sniffed a NCAA violation

I can remember a pretty significant scandal involving NU's basketball team, yes. No NCAA violations because of how it was handled, and it wasn't an indictment of the coach, but I think it counted as a "sniff."

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

I can remember a pretty significant scandal involving NU's basketball team, yes. No NCAA violations because of how it was handled, and it wasn't an indictment of the coach, but I think it counted as a "sniff."

It wasn't an athletic institutional problem though. It was independent bookies preying upon players. Nobody in the athletic department had any clue it was happening until it came to light. There's a reason there were no violations...