"Secret scrimmage" vs. Iowa State
- Thread starter FeralFelidae
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No, it’s been the GM. No the players. As heck, blame admissions and pay the man a kings ransom.
This! Hard to get fanatics, easy to lose them. The problem across both BB and FB - egos that refuse to accept their shortcomings and feverishly seek out help to fix them.
PF loyal to a fault and not great on the XO. Could he ask for Ryan to spend less on facilities and more for top coordinators? Nah, he’s a know it all and loyal.
Could CCC do the same seeking some high level assistants that might assess, develop, execute while he also is the face of a program? Nah, let’s run the same stupid rotation out there.
And then people simply don’t care anymore. Less ratings. Less attendance. Less concessions. Less merchandising. And so on. How did scout do during the dark ages? Hope Lou has a back up plan.
And the cherry? When it fails, the Alamo style koolaiders will call out the alarmists and say, you are having your day. No. We aren’t. We are probably more miserable than you graduation counts fans.
We are not the best academically or athletically. Elite, not the best. MIT, Harvard, etc. And athletically….
But we are on par with ND, Duke, Stanford, Cal, arguably MI and in some respects Purdue, UoI among others. We have seen them have success. And lesser schools like Gonzaga, Marshall, Valpo, etc have shown success too.
It starts with coaching. And their coaches get poached rather quickly to the pros or the majors. Some find the next. Some pay to keep them for a lifetime. Some fade. None happen to fall into success by accepting poor returns, hoping for the best and celebrating small accomplishments.
Dress for the job you want. Act like you have been there before. Grab the bull by the horns. And so on. I’m not our most accomplished alum, but I have done well. And being aggressive got me there. Of those of you that were successful on your own merits (not handed family heirlooms), were you passive?
This is NU, place of genius. We don’t accept mediocrity in our work, why should that be different in our athletics. Aren’t we smart enough to figure it out? Does muscle beat might? C’mon man, we should expect better than this.
You’ve watched NU basketball for 37 years and can’t tell for yourself what a good set looks like? You need some TV putz to tell you?
Come on man, announcers? What's next, opposing coaches saying NU is well coached? That's reliable.
1) They rarely ever criticize any coach. Understandable, they are not insiders of a program. They don't follow it close. They would not have the time to do it. So they need the relationship with the coach and staff. Without it their job is much harder. There are exceptions once in a great while.
2) 90% of what they say was fed to them by the coach anyway. Pre game zoom meetings and all. How many NU games do these guys call? Do they go home analyze the game, lineups, etc? If Collins tells them Brian James has great sets and 10 binders of them, they are going to repeat it
That's the thing about BC, I don't see where he was so awesome with X and O.
What I see is how awesome he was with the PO. He knew it and clearly taught it well. Beyond the system, and there was no other we ever saw him putting on the floor, I am not so sure he was a great X and O mind.
So, your point is that I am an idiot. Just like the TV analysts like Robbie Hummel you just besmirched. You are an NU grad and can’t conduct civil discourse that does not resort to name calling…amazing same old same old garbage from you.
To Gato’s subsequent posts - I hear them, but just agree to disagree that announcers are purely and solely talking heads. (And nice to see no outright name calling).
To Gato’s subsequent posts - I hear them, but just agree to disagree that announcers are purely and solely talking heads. (And nice to see no outright name calling).
I am sure I sound abrasive a lot of times, but it's never my intention to not be civil. You can believe that.
My point about commentators is not that they are or want to be talking heads. The nature of their job sort of forces them into being.
I'd add the fact that they have to please an audience sitting at home. And not being pleasant, cheerful, for example stating how wonderful every player is a bit of a turn off for audiences. The average viewer is not very interested in negativity.
I'd also guess that if they are harsh on a coach or program they are likely to feel the push back that comes with it. Pressure from powerful people, internet chatter, etc. Seems risky for their future in the business.
A while ago there was some discussion here about Dan Dakich. And he's a bit hard to swallow as many opinions showed. But at least he is one of the few that can be fairly critical of coaches and players.
Oh no, what will Robbie Hummel do with having his reputation besmirched online?
I didn’t call you an idiot, but well, if the glove fits….
For me, the question is whether or not the tourney team was just the ultimate outlier. Collins and Carmody essentially have the same winning percentage. The greatest season ever in NU basketball history shouldn't be discounted when assessing CC's ability. But after this many years, you are what your record says you are which is essentially coach Carmody with one magical season.
Carmody: 192–220 (.476) Conference: 70–150 (.318)
Collins: 118–134 (.468) Conference 49–100 (.329)
Collins added more overall talent and depth to the roster; Carmody had better "stars" in Shurna and Crawford who are all-time leading scorers. But the results (outside of the the one truly special season) are essentially the same.
I think we have talent on this roster, not top of the BIG talent, but enough talent to win 8-10 games. I'm in the camp that this should be his make or break year. If he had gotten PBJ or Starling then I would have extended a few years because those are program changing recruits. But the guys he brought in (Rowan and Hunger) are very good, but seem to be around the same level of Nance/Kopp and don't justify another free pass if we have a 10 game losing streak and finish in the basement again.
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Collins had the luck (Pardon’s last second shot) that Carmody didn’t (Coble inexplicably quitting the team) which enabled the magical season. If the ball bounced slightly different for Carmody in a couple of seasons, he also would have had one magical season. So if Carmody wasn’t good enough for anyone, there’s no reason to accept the job that Collins is doing. If you were always happy with Carmody, then well, carry on.
Collins had a great play call and also had the players prepared to execute it well. I guess he made his own “luck”.
I believe the game that was going to make or break getting into the tournament was the Rutgers game at home. Where we were heavy favorites, trailed most of the 2nd half, went ahead with 58 seconds to go and ended up winning 69-65.
The Michigan game sealed it. But, most likely, we would have been in the tournament if we lost.
A very interesting detail about that play: in the replay starting around 45 seconds in the video below, you can see a young PBJ under the basket. While everyone is going nuts when the ball goes in, PBJ remains cool, calm and collected.
The juvenile take of someone who mistakes cheesy sports movies as real life. Luck exists in the real world
Same. I’m no longer sitting through football games when they fall behind, and last season I missed entire basketball games because I couldn’t be bothered. Which just goes to show, the danger of poor performance isn’t anger (because that’s a form of engagement), it’s apathy.
This! And as fans grow more and more distant, the more challenging it becomes to bring them back in. No fans = no money. No money? I wonder what happens then...
Good grief, meaty one. If you want to play that game, then you got to include the luck that went against Collins... those last second losses. The injury to BMac. etc. etc. You can play that game all day and twice on Sunday.
I appreciate the encouraging words!
At first I wasn't sure what you meant..
But yes, I am holding on to my belief that Nicholson should get 8-10 minutes per game this year in relief of Ryan Young.
After all, I am rooting for the Cats!
Yeah, I'm hesitant to call the tourney apperance "luck." Collins had an entire season worth of good performances; any "luck" evens out in the end. What I will say, however, is that it is one season out of many. And at some point (and we are at -- or almost at that point) the one great season should simply be regarded as an outlier as opposed to indicative of his coaching ability.
The game was tied. We didn't need to make that shot to win the game. And we had a good run in the conference tournament that certainly sealed our chances of going to the tournament. This is a silly discussion. If you want to argue that one great season does not offset a bunch of mediocre and bad seasons, fine. But don't make shit up to try to prove a point. And there was some bad luck in that game as well. If I remember correctly, there was some bizarre call by the referees where Michigan got to shoot free throws over again after missing the first one because the ref that thought that it was a 2-shot foul rather than a one-and-one.
As to this debate of Collins vs Carmody....
Facilities Collins
School Profile Collins
"Relatability" Collins
Salesmanship Collins
Roster Talent Collins
Roster Depth Collins
Player Development Carmody
In-Game Coaching Carmody
Strategy Carmody
Facilities Collins
School Profile Collins
"Relatability" Collins
Salesmanship Collins
Roster Talent Collins
Roster Depth Collins
Player Development Carmody
In-Game Coaching Carmody
Strategy Carmody
And I am no fan of Collins, but you have to add "making the tourney." At the end of the day Collins accomplished the one thing that he was hired to do . . . even if he never does it again he did it once which is more than anyone else.
The haters are going to Hate. You already see the case building for removal of CCC taking place now.
you want amusement, get that group to commit to a win/loss record that keeps CCC. A lot won’t do it because the goalposts will move as the season progresses. They will tell you there is all of this talent on the team and ignore the fact that NU has never had a top 50 recruit. The talent level is probably at 10-12th in the B1G, and light years away for the top half dozen. Yet, the argument will be CCC couldn’t develop that 209th ranked recruit to beat a team full of recruits that are 100 spots higher.
CCC won’t be 500 or better in the B1G this year and he won’t make the real tourney. He’ll probably get fired. The haters will rejoice and there will be a fresh face saying all the right things that will be brought in. We’ll see flashes during the honeymoon and fans will spew optimism. 3-4 years will pass and we’ll be in the same place we always are in- the bottom third of the conference! Wash, rinse, repeat.
Barring a complete disaster or some type of moral/ethical violation, NU needs to stay the course with CCC. Carmody might have had a higher floor, but his ceiling was an inch above this floor. Unless you can find a Coach willing to come to NU ( the graveyard of Coaches) that can somehow get some top 50 recruits you are better off hoping the salesman in CCC lands that guy in the 125 range that should have been too 50.
I miss Mike Webb!
you want amusement, get that group to commit to a win/loss record that keeps CCC. A lot won’t do it because the goalposts will move as the season progresses. They will tell you there is all of this talent on the team and ignore the fact that NU has never had a top 50 recruit. The talent level is probably at 10-12th in the B1G, and light years away for the top half dozen. Yet, the argument will be CCC couldn’t develop that 209th ranked recruit to beat a team full of recruits that are 100 spots higher.
CCC won’t be 500 or better in the B1G this year and he won’t make the real tourney. He’ll probably get fired. The haters will rejoice and there will be a fresh face saying all the right things that will be brought in. We’ll see flashes during the honeymoon and fans will spew optimism. 3-4 years will pass and we’ll be in the same place we always are in- the bottom third of the conference! Wash, rinse, repeat.
Barring a complete disaster or some type of moral/ethical violation, NU needs to stay the course with CCC. Carmody might have had a higher floor, but his ceiling was an inch above this floor. Unless you can find a Coach willing to come to NU ( the graveyard of Coaches) that can somehow get some top 50 recruits you are better off hoping the salesman in CCC lands that guy in the 125 range that should have been too 50.
I miss Mike Webb!
I think most reasonable posters thought that CC should get until Nance graduated to get to 9 wins in the BIG. I think if he gets there in Nance's final season, that's enough to keep him and is probably the ceiling right now for where we are as a developmental program. Anything significantly less than that or another 10 game losing streak, then I'm fine with seeing who else would take the job.
And for the record, when Collins was coming out of Duke I'm sure he had a bunch of other options, but he chose NU. That alone shows me that we can recruit a solid coach. Our money is green too.
What is the win/loss that keeps CCC for the opposing group?
Graveyard of coaches? NU has had 2 coaches in the last 22 years. Getting a head coaching job at NU is like getting tenure. No pressure to win, competitive facilities, a solid degree to sell, it's not unreasonable that NU can find a decent coach. Not going to be a top rising star but this isn't the program Rich Falk had to coach in.
Certainly not on the defensive side of the ball. I never saw him make adjustments. The team ran the 1-3-1, come Hell or high water.
I find Carmody being great at in-game coaching very funny. Carmody never had any depth so he very rarely substituted players, which is one of the biggest in-game coaching decisions a coach makes. There was one game that we lost in the B1G tournament in overtime and 3 or 4 of the starters played all 45 minutes. He played 7 players all game. I am pretty sure I could have handled the substitutions in that game. And he rarely changed up our defenses during games so he didn't have that to do either. I think we always ran the Princeton offense and I know there were variations on that but was he really making a bunch of in-game tweaks to the offense? I thought that was kind of read and react kind of offense where the players are coached to make the right decision based on the way the defense defends them. I always felt like we struggled at the end of games under him (sound familiar) because when teams really needed to get stops late in games the Princeton offense wasn't very effective and you needed stars to make plays like on every other team. And if he was such a great in-game coach and strategist, why did we go 3 and 31 in the conference in his 7th and 8th years. Seems like he would have been able to coach a few more victories out of the team. And we definitely should have had at least one good run in the conference tournament under him in 13 years if he was such a great in-game coach and strategist. Shurna, Coble, Crawford and Thompson were better than anyone on the current roster (at least thus far). If he had a strength, it was finding players who were not 4-star recruits who became great college players.
I generally agree. Collins made the conscious decision in the 2019-20 season to play a really young team and his 2021-22 team lacked much in the way of senior leadership. That yielded substandard win-loss records to bring an experienced team to bear in this season and next - with hopes that seasoned players can make a memorable post-season run(s), and perhaps start a path toward more consistent winning results. I'm sure this approach made the departure of a key piece like Kopp all the more disappointing.
Clearly, the jury is still out if the approach will pay off this season and next. If it does, a couple of 'rebuilding' years were worthwhile. If not, I think the seat occupied by Collins will get warm. I like the makeup of the current roster and our depth. I remain hopeful that we will have a good season with Boo/Pete/Chase/Greer/Young/Beran as upper-classmen leading the way. Fingers crossed. Go Cats!
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What's killed us in recent years are the long scoring droughts that plague us almost every game it seems. When those happen, it seems we have no one who can snap the drought, as guys like Buie, Kopp, Audige, Beran were all part of the problem. With more experience I hope we can avoid them if possible, or have some guys who can bring a spark off the bench.
That’s what happens when you don’t have a pg
I never said Carmody was great during the game.
I just said he was better than Collins.
And that (to me) is indisputable.
Carmody had several rosters that were worse than ALL of the Collins rosters.
When Carmody ran a play out of a time out, it almost always got an open shot.
Carmody made adjustments at halftime and those seemed to help more than they hurt.
To me Collins just does random stuff. (Honestly, to me it seems like he coaches scared)
That stat that made the national internet rounds a few years ago about how badly NU underperforms at the end of games - that tells the story about the coaching.
When the margin is that thin - 1 or 2 games, guess what, that’s luck. A bad call here, a bad break there, someone gets cold at the wrong time, those are things that happen. And they did happen to some of Carmody’s best teams. If Collins had cleared the tourney threshold with 5, 6 games left in the conference season you could discount luck entirely. Not when it took until the last game to secure our ticket. There were Carmody teams that needed only 1-2 more wins to go to the dance. The difference there is luck.
We would've danced that year regardless of the outcome of the last game, oh meaty one.
