Sullivan the better QB at IA scrimmage?

[HailToPurple]

We are less than a week away from the home opener for the CATS and the main topic on this forum seems to be Sullivan and Iowa. And it's been that way for a long time.

Who cares? He transferred and now he is their 2nd string QB. I just don't get this ongoing interest in a previous player.

Can we please start talking about our team and its players. There has been virtually nothing on either subject. Very unusual for this close to the season beginning.

 

[FanatiCat]

Degree Options: Bachelor of Arts/Bachelor of Science - Office of Undergraduate Programs and Advising - Northwestern University School of Communication

The School of Communication offers two undergraduate degrees: a Bachelor of Science (B.S.) in Communication and a Bachelor of Arts (B.A.) in Communication. The Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders offers only the B.S., which does not include a language requirement. The Department...

advising.soc.northwestern.edu

It is not unusual to have a department that offers both BA and BS degrees that meet the needs of students with varied interests. There can be even more options at the graduate level.

That is confusing that there is such little difference. In one case a language requirement and in one case a class on research methods. And there is no BS option for RTVF anymore? My son ended up choosing Syracuse for a dual BS in TVRF and in the business school.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

The hardest part about NU are getting in —- and then paying for it.

It’s a bad look to trash excellent schools, such as the University of Iowa.

Relatedish:

National Trends in Grade Inflation, American Colleges and Universities

Spoken like an NU grad.

Iowa checks in at 93 in U.S. News and World Reports rankings.

The University of Iowa has an acceptance rate of 86%.

If NU’s offense was ranked 93, I doubt you would refer to it as “excellent”.

 

[cattul]

We are less than a week away from the home opener for the CATS and the main topic on this forum seems to be Sullivan and Iowa. And it's been that way for a long time.

Who cares? He transferred and now he is their 2nd string QB. I just don't get this ongoing interest in a previous player.

Can we please start talking about our team and its players. There has been virtually nothing on either subject. Very unusual for this close to the season beginning.

There is not much to discuss. We cannot see behind the veil of secrecy surrounding the program.

I don’t mind the information blackout, at least this year. The Cats have a new OC, and they should play up the surprise factor as much as possible. Use every possible advantage.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

We are less than a week away from the home opener for the CATS and the main topic on this forum seems to be Sullivan and Iowa. And it's been that way for a long time.

Who cares? He transferred and now he is their 2nd string QB. I just don't get this ongoing interest in a previous player.

Can we please start talking about our team and its players. There has been virtually nothing on either subject. Very unusual for this close to the season beginning.

Start a thread about something else.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

Start a thread about something else.

 

[NUCat320]

Spoken like an NU grad.

Iowa checks in at 93 in U.S. News and World Reports rankings.

The University of Iowa has an acceptance rate of 86%.

If NU’s offense was ranked 93, I doubt you would refer to it as “excellent”.

(@PurpleWhiteBoy meant to quote your comment here also. Tagging instead. Th is is a can’t-miss comment!)

There are roughly 4000 degree-granting institutions in the country. Northwestern and Iowa are way more similar than different. Both universities are excellent 40-year decisions. To imply that Sullivan, even if he had left Evanston without a degree, was somehow harming his chances of success in life by graduating from Iowa, was a bad look.

I suspect that most organic chemistry classes at Iowa and NU teach roughly the same things. Or is chemistry different west of the Mississippi?


Success is far more about who you are than where you went. The far more damning thing about Sullivan is, in fact, that he chose to quit NU rather than compete for the job.

Note that I feel the same way about the kickoff keys “you’re my driver” thing, and about “state school” chants.

I’m kind of a snowflake, I suppose.

 

[hdhntr1]

1. Sullivan got his degree.
2. Iowa is an excellent school.
3. All a Northwestern degree means as compared to an Iowa degree is that you were probably a better high school student.
4. Also, that your parents were rich.

4 Not necessarily for scholarship athletes. They are probably the last remaining middle class at NU

 

[hdhntr1]

BS is Bull Shit
MS is More Shit
PHD is Piled Higher and Deeper

Phd is also Post Hole Digger

 

[hdhntr1]

All I know is my course books at NU didn't have any pictures in them.

Too bad. They would have helped you

 

[techtim72]

Too bad. They would have helped you

Absolutely. Engineering text consisting of endless rows of quadratic equations written by the guy in front of the class can be pretty daunting and humiliating.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

(@PurpleWhiteBoy meant to quote your comment here also. Tagging instead. Th is is a can’t-miss comment!)

There are roughly 4000 degree-granting institutions in the country. Northwestern and Iowa are way more similar than different. Both universities are excellent 40-year decisions. To imply that Sullivan, even if he had left Evanston without a degree, was somehow harming his chances of success in life by graduating from Iowa, was a bad look.

I suspect that most organic chemistry classes at Iowa and NU teach roughly the same things. Or is chemistry different west of the Mississippi?


Success is far more about who you are than where you went. The far more damning thing about Sullivan is, in fact, that he chose to quit NU rather than compete for the job.

Note that I feel the same way about the kickoff keys “you’re my driver” thing, and about “state school” chants.

I’m kind of a snowflake, I suppose.

When Wall Street firms look for summer interns, they only consider students from a limited number of universities. Northwestern can be one of those, depending on the firm. Iowa is not one of them.

Most kids who apply to Northwestern are hoping to attend. Northwestern is known as a target school, especially in the Midwest. The kids with Ivy League credentials might use NU as a safety. A lot of kids from the northeast and west coasts really only know Northwestern by its academic rankings.

Most kids from the Midwest who think they have a good chance at being accepted at NU will usually apply to Wisconsin or Illinois or Michigan or Ohio State or Purdue as a safety school, depending on where they live. Many will apply "Early Decision" to Northwestern, meaning they must attend, if accepted. Obviously this is completely in favor of families who expect to pay the full tuition. Kids from families with less money can't commit like that.

Education isn't strictly about the material. Its about the quality of the professors, the competition from your classmates, the amount of material covered and the uplifting aspects of being surrounded by highly capable people. Thats one thing that gives the top universities a big advantage, such that Macro Economics or Organic Chemistry at Northwestern is usually more educational than it is at "lesser" schools.

Obviously there are stars that graduate from every school, but many of them are attending those universities for financial reasons.

 

[NUCat320]

When Wall Street firms look for summer interns, they only consider students from a limited number of universities. Northwestern can be one of those, depending on the firm. Iowa is not one of them.

Most kids who apply to Northwestern are hoping to attend. Northwestern is known as a target school, especially in the Midwest. The kids with Ivy League credentials might use NU as a safety. A lot of kids from the northeast and west coasts really only know Northwestern by its academic rankings.

Most kids from the Midwest who think they have a good chance at being accepted at NU will usually apply to Wisconsin or Illinois or Michigan or Ohio State or Purdue as a safety school, depending on where they live. Many will apply "Early Decision" to Northwestern, meaning they must attend, if accepted. Obviously this is completely in favor of families who expect to pay the full tuition. Kids from families with less money can't commit like that.

Education isn't strictly about the material. Its about the quality of the professors, the competition from your classmates, the amount of material covered and the uplifting aspects of being surrounded by highly capable people. Thats one thing that gives the top universities a big advantage, such that Macro Economics or Organic Chemistry at Northwestern is usually more educational than it is at "lesser" schools.

Obviously there are stars that graduate from every school, but many of them are attending those universities for financial reasons.

So, what you’re saying is that kids at Iowa aren’t making a bad 40-year decision, right?

(We can all be thankful that ~99% of the population does *not* want to work on Wall St.)

[Usually the terms are ‘reach’ (maybe I’ll make it) and ‘target’ (I’m right in line with who is there) and ‘safety’ (I’m better than 75% of the kids there).]

Anyway, we’ve got football to talk about.

 

[TheC]

So, what you’re saying is that kids at Iowa aren’t making a bad 40-year decision, right?

(We can all be thankful that ~99% of the population does *not* want to work on Wall St.)

[Usually the terms are ‘reach’ (maybe I’ll make it) and ‘target’ (I’m right in line with who is there) and ‘safety’ (I’m better than 75% of the kids there).]

Anyway, we’ve got football to talk about.

What the heck is this ongoing love affair half this board has with Iowa??!! Screw Iowa!! They're one of the BIG rivals I hate the most!! (Hate, in a relative sports is not really bigger than life kind of way, of course)

 

[NUCat320]

What the heck is this ongoing love affair half this board has with Iowa??!! Screw Iowa!! They're one of the BIG rivals I hate the most!! (Hate, in a relative sports is not really bigger than life kind of way, of course)

As Midvale Dave taught us, Iowa is PigF*cker U. I guess that’s what was missed in my previous comments. I thought it was implied.

Iowa is an excellent school (for Pig F*ckers, including Brendan Sullivan).

Thanks for breaking it down, @TheC.

Ferentz is such a cheater.

 

[CMcCat]

When Wall Street firms look for summer interns, they only consider students from a limited number of universities. Northwestern can be one of those, depending on the firm. Iowa is not one of them.

Most kids who apply to Northwestern are hoping to attend. Northwestern is known as a target school, especially in the Midwest. The kids with Ivy League credentials might use NU as a safety. A lot of kids from the northeast and west coasts really only know Northwestern by its academic rankings.

Most kids from the Midwest who think they have a good chance at being accepted at NU will usually apply to Wisconsin or Illinois or Michigan or Ohio State or Purdue as a safety school, depending on where they live. Many will apply "Early Decision" to Northwestern, meaning they must attend, if accepted. Obviously this is completely in favor of families who expect to pay the full tuition. Kids from families with less money can't commit like that.

Education isn't strictly about the material. Its about the quality of the professors, the competition from your classmates, the amount of material covered and the uplifting aspects of being surrounded by highly capable people. Thats one thing that gives the top universities a big advantage, such that Macro Economics or Organic Chemistry at Northwestern is usually more educational than it is at "lesser" schools.

Obviously there are stars that graduate from every school, but many of them are attending those universities for financial reasons.

I think you are a few years removed from the real scene in college admissions. Your description was probably valid as few as ten years ago. A very different game now both on the student front and the professor front.

 

[PlowKing2]

4 Not necessarily for scholarship athletes. They are probably the last remaining middle class at NU

1. Sullivan got his degree.
2. Iowa is an excellent school.
3. All a Northwestern degree means as compared to an Iowa degree is that you were probably a better high school student.
4. Also, that your parents were rich.

Yeah, I went to NU in the early '90s because the aid package made it cheaper than my own state school. Wisconsin offered me only loans. NU offered almost all grants and scholarships. So I know No. 4 was not true 35 years ago ... and I hope it's not true now.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

I think you are a few years removed from the real scene in college admissions. Your description was probably valid as few as ten years ago. A very different game now both on the student front and the professor front.

My daughter graduated from Northwestern a couple months ago.
My son is a senior at Saint Louis U.
I know what decisions their friends made.

So no... I'm telling you how it is. If you want to discuss you need to tell me where I am wrong and what the real situation is.

 

[CMcCat]

My daughter graduated from Northwestern a couple months ago.
My son is a senior at Saint Louis U.
I know what decisions their friends made.

So no... I'm telling you how it is. If you want to discuss you need to tell me where I am wrong and what the real situation is.

So your kids applied to school just before the test-optional era began? The test-optional era is a new ballgame. It may be coming to an end as several schools are going back to test-required. But it did change the admission dynamics dramatically for a period of time.

Perhaps Ohio State is a safety school in the old terminology. Iowa probably is, too. Not Wisconsin and Michigan any more, especially for Illinois students who face low admissions rates.

Given the employment conditions in the professorship, there are highly talented faculty in places far beyond the highly selective schools today. The real educational differences across the top 200 schools are rather thin.

There has been a bit of a backlash against “elite” schools as students look for not just better financial deals but different environments and cultures. Just look at what happened last year at Columbia, Penn, Harvard (and NU). This shift away from such schools is happening in full recognition of the increased quality of “lesser” schools in comparison to the Ivies and other highly selective universities.

My child is a sophomore in college, had no interest in applying to NU (though was smitten by a summer at Harvard) and has been very happy at what might be described by some as a “safety school”. Although she’s not in their business school, it is a strong program that regularly places students on Wall Street.

 

[hdhntr1]

Absolutely. Engineering text consisting of endless rows of quadratic equations written by the guy in front of the class can be pretty daunting and humiliating.

IE at NU bad enough. When I went to AZ for grad school I had a class from the guy that wrote the Thermo textbook that was used at NU. Not soo bad as he actually spoke English. Of course then there was Heat Transfer....

 

[techtim72]

There was actually a bit of insight into my comment on books without pictures. I am not a believer in the one school is better than the other theory - depends on the individual, major, circumstance - but I do believe that books now are far less "dry" than the texts I used - even engineering texts - and that individual professors may have more expectations depending on the quality of their students. Within the Big Ten footprint, however, I believe, at least for engineering undergrads, that the course quality and expectations are more or less the same. Now if we were talking about MIT or Cal Tech I would have a different opinion. Another level.

 

[techtim72]

IE at NU bad enough. When I went to AZ for grad school I had a class from the guy that wrote the Thermo textbook that was used at NU. Not soo bad as he actually spoke English. Of course then there was Heat Transfer....

Usually a professor with those credentials had a German or Eastern European surname. Now, My guess is Asian.

Kind of an interesting story. My daughter-in-law is native Chinese with a Master's in math. She and my son send my granddaughter to a supplemental math school. Very common Asian/Indian practice in DC. Anyway most of the schools are run and taught by Asians/Indians with the class makeup the same. My son and daughter-in-law were not happy with the progress she was making and tried a few different schools. They finally landed at a school owned and taught by Russian staff. Turns out they are fantastic at teaching fundamental mathematics. I don't know why the difference but there you go.

 

[EvanstonCat]

1. Sullivan got his degree.
2. Iowa is an excellent school.
3. All a Northwestern degree means as compared to an Iowa degree is that you were probably a better high school student.
4. Also, that your parents were rich.

Well all of this and the fact that there are still a number of companies (and investors) that value degree pedigree rightly or wrongly. Mainly as a measure of who you competed against for grades vs. the inherent value of the degree. It can also in some fields suggest a valuable network and even the depth or your training (e.g. graduating with a Cellular Biology graduate degree at Berkeley or Harvard definitely will mean a lot more than one from Iowa or Northwestern for that matter). This tends to diminish the further you get from graduation but it can still have some meaning (though decreasingly relative to your accomplishments since) many years later.

 

[Falcon86]

Because no O under PF throws 40x in a season

CJ baccher and mike kafka would not agre

 

[NUCat320]

CJ baccher and mike kafka would not agre

Yeah, but that was before Fitz realized he was a genius. 😳🙄😳

 

[CappyNU]

Yeah, but that was before Fitz realized he was a genius. 😳🙄😳

Not to "well, actually" you, but...Thorson averaged 35 attempts/game over his last 3 seasons and was at 40+ attempts in 13 of the 40 games he played in. His QB rating was 120.5 in the 40+ attempt games vs 126.1 in the others.

 

[Go Catz]

Iowa names Cade McNamara starting QB: Hawkeyes tap veteran signal-caller after fall camp battle

McNamara will take the reins of the new-look Iowa offense entering the 2024 season

www.cbssports.com

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

So your kids applied to school just before the test-optional era began? The test-optional era is a new ballgame. It may be coming to an end as several schools are going back to test-required. But it did change the admission dynamics dramatically for a period of time.

Perhaps Ohio State is a safety school in the old terminology. Iowa probably is, too. Not Wisconsin and Michigan any more, especially for Illinois students who face low admissions rates.

Given the employment conditions in the professorship, there are highly talented faculty in places far beyond the highly selective schools today. The real educational differences across the top 200 schools are rather thin.

There has been a bit of a backlash against “elite” schools as students look for not just better financial deals but different environments and cultures. Just look at what happened last year at Columbia, Penn, Harvard (and NU). This shift away from such schools is happening in full recognition of the increased quality of “lesser” schools in comparison to the Ivies and other highly selective universities.

My child is a sophomore in college, had no interest in applying to NU (though was smitten by a summer at Harvard) and has been very happy at what might be described by some as a “safety school”. Although she’s not in their business school, it is a strong program that regularly places students on Wall Street.

I appreciate your comments. I don't see anything where we really disagree.
I think "test optional" is completely asinine. Maybe we disagree about that.
My perception is that there is intense competition for the truly elite schools. I would put Northwestern in the lower tier of those schools.
Beyond that, it largely depends what program you are in, though UCLA and Michigan are still clearly "better" than Iowa or Clemson or whatever. You will find better students and better professors at the better schools, in general.

Its the value proposition that people are pushing back against. From that perspective, the elite schools are charging reasonable tuition, while most of the "good" schools are overpriced. "Why would I go to Boston College for $80k a year when I can go to Illinois for $35k (or whatever those numbers are).

Students who excel at "less than elite" universities will find fewer doors open to them. Its just something to overcome - plenty of people do it - and there is a growing awareness that those students tend to do very well in the real world.

 

[TheC]

I appreciate your comments. I don't see anything where we really disagree.
I think "test optional" is completely asinine. Maybe we disagree about that.
My perception is that there is intense competition for the truly elite schools. I would put Northwestern in the lower tier of those schools.
Beyond that, it largely depends what program you are in, though UCLA and Michigan are still clearly "better" than Iowa or Clemson or whatever. You will find better students and better professors at the better schools, in general.

Its the value proposition that people are pushing back against. From that perspective, the elite schools are charging reasonable tuition, while most of the "good" schools are overpriced. "Why would I go to Boston College for $80k a year when I can go to Illinois for $35k (or whatever those numbers are).

Students who excel at "less than elite" universities will find fewer doors open to them. Its just something to overcome - plenty of people do it - and there is a growing awareness that those students tend to do very well in the real world.

The problem with standardized tests is that, while they provide some information about the student's knowledge of the material, the result is also influenced by the student's understanding of how to take the test. There are strategies and a familiarity with the test design itself that can be coached. This can create an inequality along economic lines as richer families can afford more complex and extensive "coaching" as well as opportunities to take the test multiple times. It can't really be a standardized test if everyone's preparation opportunities aren't standardized.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

The problem with standardized tests is that, while they provide some information about the student's knowledge of the material, the result is also influenced by the student's understanding of how to take the test. There are strategies and a familiarity with the test design itself that can be coached. This can create an inequality along economic lines as richer families can afford more complex and extensive "coaching" as well as opportunities to take the test multiple times. It can't really be a standardized test if everyone's preparation opportunities aren't standardized.

I agree with you.
The rampant "college exam prep" course skewed everything.
I was naive enough to think the students were actually being taught material, only to be told by my oldest that it was all about "how to take the test" and "tricks to help you improve your score."
The colleges realized the impact the test prep courses were having. They understood 5 whacks at the test will produce better scores than 1 try. ACT and SAT had a profit motive that skewed the fairness of the test reporting. You only had to report 1 set of scores. Or you could report 2 tests and take the better score in each category. As long as you pay us.

The only real solution I can think of is to form a database of test scores based on where the student is going to high school and make adjustments for that. This may already exist or is in development.

 

[FeralFelidae]

My perception is that there is intense competition for the truly elite schools. I would put Northwestern in the lower tier of those schools.
Beyond that, it largely depends what program you are in, though UCLA and Michigan are still clearly "better" than Iowa or Clemson or whatever.

The Iowa Writers' Workshop is very prestigious. I wonder if the Iowa football team has any grad students enrolled in it?

 

[hdhntr1]

There was actually a bit of insight into my comment on books without pictures. I am not a believer in the one school is better than the other theory - depends on the individual, major, circumstance - but I do believe that books now are far less "dry" than the texts I used - even engineering texts - and that individual professors may have more expectations depending on the quality of their students. Within the Big Ten footprint, however, I believe, at least for engineering undergrads, that the course quality and expectations are more or less the same. Now if we were talking about MIT or Cal Tech I would have a different opinion. Another level.

The original BIG had a lot of top 20 Engineering programs. About the only school that did not have a top Engineering school was Indiana as Purdue was the engineering school in the state

 

[hdhntr1]

Well all of this and the fact that there are still a number of companies (and investors) that value degree pedigree rightly or wrongly. Mainly as a measure of who you competed against for grades vs. the inherent value of the degree. It can also in some fields suggest a valuable network and even the depth or your training (e.g. graduating with a Cellular Biology graduate degree at Berkeley or Harvard definitely will mean a lot more than one from Iowa or Northwestern for that matter). This tends to diminish the further you get from graduation but it can still have some meaning (though decreasingly relative to your accomplishments since) many years later.

That is just it. With all the recent grade inflation at NU they aren't really competing against anyone anymore. Outside of Engineering it had probably started when I was there over 50 years ago. There was about a full grade point difference between Engineering and all other schools at NU

 

[hdhntr1]

Yeah, but that was before Fitz realized he was a genius. 😳🙄😳

It was more a matter of who we had. Throwing the ball was part of the package when we had the assets to do that

 

[hdhntr1]

I think he felt he was entitled to the starting spot.. too bad Lausch apparently outplayed him and impressed Lujan more in the Spring practices. Sully didn't like the fact that he had to compete and actually win the QB1 job, which is not a good attitude. He tweeted a strange Bible verse about being persecuted when he announced his move to the portal. Good riddance.

Lujan came and was new so there was no history or really knowledge of what happened before. It was the first he had seen of either one of them. Can't be entitled to it under those circumstances

 

[CMcCat]

I appreciate your comments. I don't see anything where we really disagree.
I think "test optional" is completely asinine. Maybe we disagree about that.
My perception is that there is intense competition for the truly elite schools. I would put Northwestern in the lower tier of those schools.
Beyond that, it largely depends what program you are in, though UCLA and Michigan are still clearly "better" than Iowa or Clemson or whatever. You will find better students and better professors at the better schools, in general.

Its the value proposition that people are pushing back against. From that perspective, the elite schools are charging reasonable tuition, while most of the "good" schools are overpriced. "Why would I go to Boston College for $80k a year when I can go to Illinois for $35k (or whatever those numbers are).

Students who excel at "less than elite" universities will find fewer doors open to them. Its just something to overcome - plenty of people do it - and there is a growing awareness that those students tend to do very well in the real world.

I agree on your view of test optional. It doesn’t have to be the determining criteria but to eliminate it from the calculus is crazy, particularly in that it is a way for a student to be identified who would otherwise be missed.

On tuition, it’s unfortunate that the market associates value with price. Even if they could make the economics work, colleges have a strong disincentive to lower tuition as it signals lower quality. My child was looking at two schools at one point with one at $90k and one at $60k (net of aid the difference was even greater). Both are in the same metro area. Hard to believe the price difference was anything more than signaling. Fortunately, she chose the less expensive and - for many reasons - the better choice.

 

[FanatiCat]

I agree on your view of test optional. It doesn’t have to be the determining criteria but to eliminate it from the calculus is crazy, particularly in that it is a way for a student to be identified who would otherwise be missed.

On tuition, it’s unfortunate that the market associates value with price. Even if they could make the economics work, colleges have a strong disincentive to lower tuition as it signals lower quality. My child was looking at two schools at one point with one at $90k and one at $60k (net of aid the difference was even greater). Both are in the same metro area. Hard to believe the price difference was anything more than signaling. Fortunately, she chose the less expensive and - for many reasons - the better choice.

One cannot equate tuition with value directly, otherwise very few students would attend universities that cost $90K. Perhaps those going banking or tech may have the early ROI. Hundreds of students at NU majoring in English, sociology, art history, theater, music education and whatnot. For med school your undergrad prestige doesn’t account for much (perhaps HPME is a good ROI though).

For my kid, perhaps I’m jaded as he probably wouldn’t have been admitted to NU although his stats were fine and he is smart enough to have done the work at NU. He decided to go elsewhere which I think is a great fit for him. He got merit scholarships which NU does not give, so I did not think $92K per year was necessarily worth it (would not qualify for any aid.)

Unpopular opinion based on research of admissions stats, observation on campus and interaction on visits and mentoring: I think NU is really deemphasizing the “smart suburban Midwest” students who made up the majority of the school in the 90s, for a mix of ultra elite stats students, upper class full pay, and first gen/underrepresented. As well as of course athletes and other “hooked” students.

 

[hdhntr1]

One cannot equate tuition with value directly, otherwise very few students would attend universities that cost $90K. Perhaps those going banking or tech may have the early ROI. Hundreds of students at NU majoring in English, sociology, art history, theater, music education and whatnot. For med school your undergrad prestige doesn’t account for much (perhaps HPME is a good ROI though).

For my kid, perhaps I’m jaded as he probably wouldn’t have been admitted to NU although his stats were fine and he is smart enough to have done the work at NU. He decided to go elsewhere which I think is a great fit for him. He got merit scholarships which NU does not give, so I did not think $92K per year was necessarily worth it (would not qualify for any aid.)

Unpopular opinion based on research of admissions stats, observation on campus and interaction on visits and mentoring: I think NU is really deemphasizing the “smart suburban Midwest” students who made up the majority of the school in the 90s, for a mix of ultra elite stats students, upper class full pay, and first gen/underrepresented. As well as of course athletes and other “hooked” students.

Like I have said. Middle class representation is basically gone. Some of the Athletes are about all that is left. Did not realize it was already up to more than $90k but should not be surprised. Hard to see the value anymore (for the group that actually pay full price) As far as undergrad prestige as far as med school, one exception is if that was what got you in in the first place

 

[hdhntr1]

I appreciate your comments. I don't see anything where we really disagree.
I think "test optional" is completely asinine. Maybe we disagree about that.
My perception is that there is intense competition for the truly elite schools. I would put Northwestern in the lower tier of those schools.
Beyond that, it largely depends what program you are in, though UCLA and Michigan are still clearly "better" than Iowa or Clemson or whatever. You will find better students and better professors at the better schools, in general.

Its the value proposition that people are pushing back against. From that perspective, the elite schools are charging reasonable tuition, while most of the "good" schools are overpriced. "Why would I go to Boston College for $80k a year when I can go to Illinois for $35k (or whatever those numbers are).

Students who excel at "less than elite" universities will find fewer doors open to them. Its just something to overcome - plenty of people do it - and there is a growing awareness that those students tend to do very well in the real world.

Reality is that there are a lot of good schools and the differences are often not that great. But it is often program by program, I went through Engineering. At the time there was Cal Tech and MIT and after that a group of about 20 that were pretty much at the same level. All (or almost all) of the Engineering programs in the original BIG were in that top 20 group, including NU. The better fit was often more of the nuances of the individual programs rather than their ratings which were all about the same. At the time NU was a better fit as students got a little broader background. I was also from a smaller town and the smaller size fit me better, But the overall quality of the education is pretty similar. I can especially say that also because of my work with Engineers out of a lot of programs. I cannot speak for other schools at NU, but I can definitely say that unless those nuances are important to the individual in Engineering there is not really an advantage in going to NU over other BIG Engineering schools (at least in the original BIG)

 

[CatManTrue]

What the heck is this ongoing love affair half this board has with Iowa??!! Screw Iowa!! They're one of the BIG rivals I hate the most!! (Hate, in a relative sports is not really bigger than life kind of way, of course)

Let’s ask @HawkCat about that.

Or maybe he goes by WolverineCat these days. Who knows.