What makes a dual threat QB?

[Deeringfish]

We talk about CT being A dual threat QB but he doesn't look anything like Persa or Colter in the backfield.
CT is really fast and has some moves at top speed but he hasn't run the option well and he doesn't get very many designed runs. To me he seems more suited to a pro style attack. This makes me wonder if one of our problems on O is that we have a guy with "all the tools" in a system that needs different tools.

Does being a fast runner who can throw make you a Dual threat QB by itself? Most pro QBs are pretty fast when they have to be.

 

[phatcat]

We talk about CT being A dual threat QB but he doesn't look anything like Persa or Colter in the backfield.
CT is really fast and has some moves at top speed but he hasn't run the option well and he doesn't get very many designed runs. To me he seems more suited to a pro style attack. This makes me wonder if one of our problems on O is that we have a guy with "all the tools" in a system that needs different tools.

Does being a fast runner who can throw make you a Dual threat QB by itself? Most pro QBs are pretty fast when they have to be.

I am hopeful that he improves in the option. To me, the key is the read and the ability to sell the fake. If people are certain JJTBC is going to get the ball, or if CT just keeps 'guessing' wrong, then he won't succeed at it. At times last year, it looked like he was either half-hearted about it or didn't know how to execute it.

CT is a big, strong kid with decent elusiveness. I'm actually more sold on his running ability than his passing, at least to date. Perhaps you are right and he just lacks the skills, but, to me, anyway, I am hopeful that another several months of practice as the #1, and rep after rep of working with JJTBC will help him improve in the critical 'ball handling portion' of the option. I made the comparison a while back about how JT Barrett rides his tailback al the way to the line until the defender HAS to commit. Someone answered something like: 'you are comparing him to a Heisman candidate'. SO? Don't we want CT to challenge for the Heisman? If that is a bridge to far, then I expect him to at least reach the level of Colter and Mark - Kain always seemed to know whether to keep it or leave it with Venric.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

I am hopeful that he improves in the option. To me, the key is the read and the ability to sell the fake. If people are certain JJTBC is going to get the ball, or if CT just keeps 'guessing' wrong, then he won't succeed at it. At times last year, it looked like he was either half-hearted about it or didn't know how to execute it.

CT is a big, strong kid with decent elusiveness. I'm actually more sold on his running ability than his passing, at least to date. Perhaps you are right and he just lacks the skills, but, to me, anyway, I am hopeful that another several months of practice as the #1, and rep after rep of working with JJTBC will help him improve in the critical 'ball handling portion' of the option. I made the comparison a while back about how JT Barrett rides his tailback al the way to the line until the defender HAS to commit. Someone answered something like: 'you are comparing him to a Heisman candidate'. SO? Don't we want CT to challenge for the Heisman? If that is a bridge to far, then I expect him to at least reach the level of Colter and Mark - Kain always seemed to know whether to keep it or leave it with Venric.

That would be me. I thought it was pretty hilarious to compare Thorson's first couple starts to those of a Heisman front runner. Of course we all hope to see Thorson hoisting a trophy on-stage in NYC before his NU career is over, but it's a bit ridiculous to think he would step on the field his first year as starter an entirely finished product.

That said, QBs all have different strengths and weaknesses. In his first year, Clayton's strengths seemed to be more "tools"-based (with some of that tempered by his OL and WR), while weaknesses were clearly accuracy and running the option. Fortunately those can both be improved with reps, but there's likely a natural ceiling to both. Colter was an absolute master running the option with a tremendous feel for it. Not sure we should ever bank on Thorson getting to that level.

 

[Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan]

Who do you like better? Hacklenburg or Thorson? I think Clayton has more upside!

 

[NJCat]

Who do you like better? Hacklenburg or Thorson? I think Clayton has more upside!

Clayton. He won more games with a poor OL than did Hack.

 

[DaCat]

Thorson could be a better version of Kafka, and not necessarily a pure dual threat like Colter but someone who can scramble and run occasionally to keep the defense honest and get the first down with his feet. But his value to the team will be slinging the rock like Baz, Bacher, Kafka, Trevor. Pure dual threats were guys like Colter, Kustok and Persa, and Baz to an extent.

 

[GlideCat]

Thorson could be a better version of Kafka, and not necessarily a pure dual threat like Colter but someone who can scramble and run occasionally to keep the defense honest and get the first down with his feet. But his value to the team will be slinging the rock like Baz, Bacher, Kafka, Trevor. Pure dual threats were guys like Colter, Kustok and Persa, and Baz to an extent.

A true duel threat can run plays that are designed as straightforward non-delay running plays. In order to successfully do that, a qb needs the quick feet necessary to hit a hole and squirm through in order to get 5 or 6 yards.

In his first year, it appeared that CT needed a clear lane in which to run. This developed out of a quarterback draw or a DL losing containment and leaving the opening. Once he starts running, he is deceptively fast and the LBs and secondary have tended to take bad angles.

While this makes him a qb for whom the DL has to stay honest in their pass rushing, it does not necessarily make him the definition of a dual threat. I agree that he is more Kafka-esque.

This is not a bad thing but the coaching staff has to work to his strengths and hopefully not try and force him into an offensive scheme that does not work for him.

 

[pawildcat]

Thorson has decent wheels, but looks to me as if he's a guy who takes a while to get up to top gear. Where Persa stood out before he got hurt was his quick feet. I remember his shuttle scores were very good when NU was recruiting him.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

With back ups that have taken little game day snaps, I sure hope we limit the Thor runs.

 

[NJCat]

With back ups that have taken little game day snaps, I sure hope we limit the Thor runs.

It isn't the running that scares me, it is getting crushed in the pocket trying to pass. Need better pass protection to avoid getting him killed.

 

[phatcat]

Thorson could be a better version of Kafka, and not necessarily a pure dual threat like Colter but someone who can scramble and run occasionally to keep the defense honest and get the first down with his feet. But his value to the team will be slinging the rock like Baz, Bacher, Kafka, Trevor. Pure dual threats were guys like Colter, Kustok and Persa, and Baz to an extent.

so you are saying he might have a metamorphosis into Kafka...

Long time since we could use that one.

 

[DaCat]

I think Thorson has better than decent wheels, I think he has elite top-end speed as evident beginning from his long TD run against Stanford though he may not have the 4.3 speed that Trevor claimed he had (tongue in cheek). He doesn't have the cutting ability and acceleration needed to be a legitimate dual threat QB, however. That doesn't exclude designed plays for him, but those plays will be most effective if used situationally and opportunistically.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

so you are saying he might have a metamorphosis into Kafka...

Long time since we could use that one.

Joke doesn't get any better with age.

 

[NJCat]

Joke doesn't get any better with age.

Not much does, I'm afraid, or I'd be perfect.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

I don't see him as a true dual threat just because he didn't show the elusiveness to make guys miss more just out running guys. He should tho make defenses always be weary of the ability to run because if he gets an open lane he is gone. The key for him is getting better throwing accuracy. I hate the speed option with him but if learns to read it better the read option could become a very nice tool.

 

[Overly_Invested_Cat]

I like Clayton, but until he starts reading the option effectively and executing fakes, he won't be dual threat. Even then, he seems too tall and non-elusive in tight quarters to break free. However, if we can get our receivers off the line and catching a few balls, he'll get more opportunities to break from the pocket and scoot downfield as he did with Stanford and Nebby.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

I like Clayton, but until he starts reading the option effectively and executing fakes, he won't be dual threat. Even then, he seems too tall and non-elusive in tight quarters to break free. However, if we can get our receivers off the line and catching a few balls, he'll get more opportunities to break from the pocket and scoot downfield as he did with Stanford and Nebby.

How exactly would a QB go about getting "receivers off the line and catching a few balls?"

 

[Overly_Invested_Cat]

How exactly would a QB go about getting "receivers off the line and catching a few balls?"

"we" referred more broadly to the Northwestern offense...the receivers in particular. Not CT. Glad I could clarify for you.

 

[pawildcat]

I think Thorson has better than decent wheels, I think he has elite top-end speed as evident beginning from his long TD run against Stanford though he may not have the 4.3 speed that Trevor claimed he had (tongue in cheek). He doesn't have the cutting ability and acceleration needed to be a legitimate dual threat QB, however. That doesn't exclude designed plays for him, but those plays will be most effective if used situationally and opportunistically.

Agree that he has the speed to break it if he gets a lane, and he had a helluva lane against Stanford. If he had the footwork of Jackson, you'd have a very good dual-threat QB.

 

[Frabjous]

Who do you like better? Hacklenburg or Thorson? I think Clayton has more upside!

Hackenberg was strictly a pocket QB, no wheels at all; Penn State is excited that their new QB is more Thorson-like. Unfortunate that Penn State rotated off the schedule, as last year's game was terrific and both teams will be better.

 

[DaCat]

Hackenberg was strictly a pocket QB, no wheels at all; Penn State is excited that their new QB is more Thorson-like. Unfortunate that Penn State rotated off the schedule, as last year's game was terrific and both teams will be better.

Franklin ducks Fitz again. At least this time he didn't have to send a fax to notify NU.

 

[pawildcat]

Hackenberg was strictly a pocket QB, no wheels at all; Penn State is excited that their new QB is more Thorson-like. Unfortunate that Penn State rotated off the schedule, as last year's game was terrific and both teams will be better.

They're back on the schedule next year, and I think you'll see more of those Penn State guys than you might want. They should be considerably better than the past couple of years. It is nice that the game will be at Ryan, giving us two home games in succession against them, an unusual byproduct of the new nine-game B1G schedule.

 

[phatcat]

I like Clayton, but until he starts reading the option effectively and executing fakes, he won't be dual threat. Even then, he seems too tall and non-elusive in tight quarters to break free. However, if we can get our receivers off the line and catching a few balls, he'll get more opportunities to break from the pocket and scoot downfield as he did with Stanford and Nebby.

re your too tall comment, while it seems true based on observation, the dreaded Tebow was able to make it work. OTOH, Cardale at dOSU wasn't able to effectively be that alternative running threat to Elliott

 

[Frabjous]

They're back on the schedule next year, and I think you'll see more of those Penn State guys than you might want. They should be considerably better than the past couple of years. It is nice that the game will be at Ryan, giving us two home games in succession against them, an unusual byproduct of the new nine-game B1G schedule.

Let me beat a dead horse for a few more minutes and wonder why NU did not offer Daniel Joseph from Lake Forest Academy. Penn State is high as a pigeon about this kid. P.S.: Stanford offered.

 

[GlideCat]

They're back on the schedule next year, and I think you'll see more of those Penn State guys than you might want. They should be considerably better than the past couple of years. It is nice that the game will be at Ryan, giving us two home games in succession against them, an unusual byproduct of the new nine-game B1G schedule.

Yeah but that is next year. For now, Franklin is ofer against Fitz. And until that changes... we abuse PSU!

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Let me beat a dead horse for a few more minutes and wonder why NU did not offer Tommy Joseph from Lake Forest Academy. Penn State is high as a pigeon about this kid.

Rumor was his grades wouldn't fit at NU.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Let me beat a dead horse for a few more minutes and wonder why NU did not offer Tommy Joseph from Lake Forest Academy. Penn State is high as a pigeon about this kid. P.S.: Stanford offered.

You mean Daniel Joseph? Stanford got 2 LFA guys (Annan and Schaffer) we didn't even sniff at. Seems different admissions.

 

[Fitz51]

A gun and a knife?

 

[gocatsgo2003]

You mean Daniel Joseph? Stanford got 2 LFA guys (Annan and Schaffer) we didn't even sniff at. Seems different admissions.

I think Annan and Schaeffer were instances where our coaching staff "outthought themselves," but Joseph's grades were reportedly pretty low.

 

[pawildcat]

Yeah but that is next year. For now, Franklin is ofer against Fitz. And until that changes... we abuse PSU!

Abuse away. Wish NU had taken advantage of Michigan's recent down years as well as they did Penn State's.

 

[DaCat]

Agree that he has the speed to break it if he gets a lane, and he had a helluva lane against Stanford. If he had the footwork of Jackson, you'd have a very good dual-threat QB.

Thorson is a dual threat in the sense that he can beat a team with his feet (like vs Stanford) and with his arm (which we hopefully will see more this season). But he is not shifty enough to be a constant dual threat like a Kain Colter. Though Kain was not a true dual threat either because defenses could cheat in and dare him to beat them with his arm.

 

[pawildcat]

Thorson is a dual threat in the sense that he can beat a team with his feet (like vs Stanford) and with his arm (which we hopefully will see more this season). But he is not shifty enough to be a constant dual threat like a Kain Colter. Though Kain was not a true dual threat either because defenses could cheat in and dare him to beat them with his arm.

Persa, when healthy, was definitely the best dual threat QB I've seen at Northwestern in recent years. I'd probably put Kustok in second.

 

[NJCat]

Persa, when healthy, was definitely the best dual threat QB I've seen at Northwestern in recent years. I'd probably put Kustok in second.

Len Williams was second best IMHO.

 

[pawildcat]

Len Williams was second best IMHO.

Well, I said in recent years and you're going back more than 20 with Williams, but OK.

 

[NJCat]

Well, I said in recent years and you're going back more than 20 with Williams, but OK.

Sorry. At my age, 20 years IS recent.....

 

[Katatonic]

Thorson could be a better version of Kafka, and not necessarily a pure dual threat like Colter but someone who can scramble and run occasionally to keep the defense honest and get the first down with his feet. But his value to the team will be slinging the rock like Baz, Bacher, Kafka, Trevor. Pure dual threats were guys like Colter, Kustok and Persa, and Baz to an extent.

Don't think either Thorson or Colter are/were true dual-threat QBs.

I think Thorson has better than decent wheels, I think he has elite top-end speed as evident beginning from his long TD run against Stanford though he may not have the 4.3 speed that Trevor claimed he had (tongue in cheek). He doesn't have the cutting ability and acceleration needed to be a legitimate dual threat QB, however. That doesn't exclude designed plays for him, but those plays will be most effective if used situationally and opportunistically.

Colter was basically a RB playing the QB position.

Opposing defenses did not consider Colter to be a down-the-field passing threat, which is why they would crowd the LoS.

Persa, otoh, was a true DT QB.

Not only was he a threat w/ his legs and his arm - he also was excellent in using his legs to buy time for receivers to get open (so - a triple threat?).

After Persa's unfortunate injury which robbed him of a good bit of his running ability and was relegated more to sticking in the pocket - Persa still was able to put up good passing yds (2376).

If the same thing had happened to Colter, unlikely that Colter would have been the type of pocket passer that Persa had been.

Doesn't seem like Thorson is a DT QB either since he needs a running lane and doesn't have the shiftiness/elusiveness to be like another RB in the backfield.

Which is probably why Thorson will end up following in the footsteps of Kafka - as he develops as a passer (not yet a passing threat either - we'll see soon enough), he will be limited in his runs in order to keep him healthy.

Thorson has good speed, so w/ an open lane, he will have a better chance of turning what would have been a 8-10 yd gain into a 20-25 yd gain or more.